Mastering the Art of Centralized Treasury with Jonathan Leon

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show, delighted to be joined by Jonathan Leon, the senior Vice president Corporate treasurer at Owens and Minor. Owens and Minor is a Fortune 500 global healthcare solutions company integrating product manufacturing and delivery, home health supply and peri operative services to support care throughout the hospital and into the home. They go and manage to get peri operative into there. It was tripping me up all the way through. Operating continuously since 1882 in Richmond, Virginia, Owens & Minor is 140-year-old company powered by more than 20,000 global teammates. But we're going to get, as always, Jonathan to talk about his career, how he first got started in treasury first of all. And we'll come up to date with Owens and Minor later in the show. Talk us back to you. How did you first discover finance and Treasury? Over to you, sir.

Well, yes, thanks Mike. I started in university with a keen interest in finance and actually the decision that was needed to be made coming out of university was the Wall street route or the corporate route for reasons that still make sense to me whether it was the corporate route. I kind of like the idea of being a client, having a large financial wherewithal and the power that a bincorporation can bring. Sounded attractive to me. I've been fortunate to be part of large corporations most of my career and I've really gotten what I expected out of it. Titan fell into initially was a smaller energy company that that gave me a chance to actually see a lot of different areas of corporate finance, actually be anti capital budgeting and quickly moved into doing daily cash management on 13 column sheets by hand. And that was a very domestic company and got to learn a lot around that. As a smaller corporate headquarters staff, I worked for a treasurer who had a variety of responsibilities. I would call it the traditional treasury cash management and activity for the most part in capital structure activity. But he also had areas like industrial relations and he had some capital budgeting responsibilities and I got to the other parts of a corporation. So I always learned on the periphery what was ancillary to treasury at the same time stayed core to domestic cash management and then over time that company began to get a little more global. Learned a little bit about the international world and how to build by hand and that building by hand really gave me the opportunity to really understand international global liquidity looks like. So that was really the impetus for the interest. And really from there it's been just growing that interest and touching more areas that are the treasury and then building treasury and having opportunities presented to me and raising my hand and saying yes, take a shot at building something different treasury, making it bigger and better way. What's next to Treasury.

And when you. You're getting into a role like that so early on in your career, is that something you'd suggest people do? I heard someone the other day and we had them on the podcast and they were. They started up in being quite specialized and that was great for them because then they. They sort of started in cash, just really got to know cash and then they broadened out in the next couple of roles and then they sort of progressed their career. But you were you started broad, would that be the right way to with it?

I say start abroad and I would, I had that debate with myself many, many times. I probably would have wished I was more broad. And I still think the greatest skill that a treasure professional can bring to the table is accounting knowledge. And so I would have liked to spend more time either in an accounting role and understand I'm not a certified chartered accountant at all. I took a lot of accounting for work at university and that has served me well if I stayed very close to the accountants, recognizing that treasurer come up with a lot of good ideas, economically attractive ideas that may not make sense in terms of accounting or financial reporting. So understanding the impact, you know, foreign exchange is a great example or any derivative is a great example where things may make more sense economically than they will in the books and the P and L of the company. So having that broader understanding of that and how the work that treasury teams do impacts your book, your books accounting, I think is something I got later in my career that I wish I would have understood earlier on.

And so you started with Universal and then Universal Corporation, then you joined Brinks. Is that the best way or you were formerly Pittston or explain that to us if you would.

Actually, I was at Brinks for a number of time, went to Universal for Universal Corporation for. So it was interesting, the Brinks at the time, Brinks with this one entity in what was I described as maybe a late 1970s conglomerate that had a number of businesses that were disparate, had no synergies between them whatsoever, and that from there I was initially doing capital markets activity and industrial relations moved in slowly into more and more. I would call it traditional treasury and then really got into enough for a number of businesses and a number of reasons. We started getting into our more hardcore global Treasury. We built a number of different types of tax pools. So we had to start businesses that each needed their own liquidity structures. We built those around the world. That's where early on I understood the point of getting really joining myself at the hip with my tax partners to understand that what we needed to do around the world from a Treasury perspective had tax ramifications as well. And I did that for a number of years. Led the international treasury function of a company that was 80% non US activity which is fantastic.

And then again tell us if you would. You know, you and I both know I know the company very well. We've had previous treasurer on and various other bits. Who are Brinks? What do they do? Or you know. And I know that it's changed in.

Recent years but so blinks today is one of the world's leading secure logistics companies. When I joined the. When I joined back in the late 90s was a company called Pittston which no longer exists. Brinks was one of the many business lines of that company. We had a coal mining company. We had a global heavyweight freight company. We had other minerals businesses. We had a home alone company in the US it was very disparate. Brinks was one of those. So the treasury activity that I worked on focused a lot on a heavyweight repl business that was big and Asia Pacific branch Frank's has until this day has a very large global presence. Asia Pacific, Latin America, Europe, into Africa. So gave us opportunities. Now we had to treat each company differently and basically had their own capital structures that had their own bank tax requirement needs. So we got the chance to build different structures for them. And at the end of the day it made sense simply because we were able to as we divested those businesses into what is today left as Brinks, the global secure logistics company. We had to ultimately unwind those structures. Right. Got the opportunity to build and then unwind them all at the same time and underwind them over a number of years. And that was just as fascinating. And learning the actual building of these liquidity structures around the world and then.

Talk us through the development of your role within treasury before we get up to your current role. It was more, you know there were a number of different progressions for you. Was that. Was that a key thing for you at the time? That right. Starting sort of manager within treasury and IR and everything else. And then I want to be treasurer was That a desire for yourself or what was the situation?

Yeah, it was the desire to become, to sit in the big chair, if you will. And so it was a Treasury management role. I had the cash management experience. What I got when I moved to what is now Brinks and was formerly the Pitson Company, what I got to see was a number of different industries, how cash management works across industries, whether from a manufacturer to a service provider, everything from different payment methodologies, different settlement methodologies around the world. Got to get pretty good knowledge about very specific markets, about liquidity management, where you can pull, where you can net, you know, built the knowledge across dozens of countries that allowed me to move into a leading international treasury function for a very global organization. And from there it was really heading towards the treasurer role. I had, you know, at the same time I had done capital markets work, of course, that was more on an as needed sporadic basis, you know, based on refinancing activity, acquisition activity, within the capital markets as well. Felt quite well rounded. And I said I was, I think I was wise enough or maybe past the stakes, you bring along tax team, legal team and make sure that I knew where the pitfalls were. So. And then you start absorbing more and more work from the Treasure and you go to the. I went to the treasure that I can do more. Let me do more of what you do. Basically asking for that grooming. And ultimately led to the treasurer's role. I did jump briefly to Universal Corporation because there was a faster path at the time to the treasurer's role, but find out shortly there, 15 months or so afterwards that the actual Treasure roll back at Brinks had opened up and went back there before for a few years before jumping over to Owens and Byner.

And what was it like being the boss?

I guess you could ask people to work for me. I enjoy being the boss. I enjoy managing people. The things I am most proud of them, as I look back on my career, are some of the mentoring I've done. There are people that work for me that are now corporate treasurer themselves and that's, that's fantastic. So I really, really enjoyed that. And I have not. I've had people that had very successful careers that work for me and Freddie, have gone out in different parts of a corporate corporation and been very successful in their own right. So I have a very candid, direct style with people working under, under me, but with the goal to do what's best for them and the corporation.

What does that mean? What do you mean by candid, direct style? We've got an impression of that already, you know, but there's direct feedback and there's brutal. Pretend you're one of those people for a bit. What were you like as a treasurer? What was the, you know, again, people listening today going to be trying to get, oh, hang on. This guy is, you know, a corporate treasurer. I should learn from this and stuff. What should they be taking away in your management style? Certainly that time we'll come up to you, you know, more up to date. There's a different industry in a minute.

Yeah. From a style perspective, I am maniacal about continuous improvement. I always want to think about what's next. And I think it's. I have learned to accomplish something, stop, celebrate it, and then move on. Earlier in my career, I was like, okay, we just closed this major acquisition, we closed this major financing. Let's move on to. Let's get ready for the next one. And without stopping and celebrating the accomplishments. As I've matured, I've learned small, but I do thrive. And I do expect my team to think about what's kind of how we better tomorrow and then even longer term. What is it we really want to aim for? And we sit here today and say, you know, I'm in the middle of a. Of revamping our US Cash management structure. It's been too many years. We got to get better. And I want to leapfrog the current best practice to figure out what's, you know, where is best practice going. And I asked that of my people. I strive myself. When I even did a capital markets activity or even if it's a bank deal, just through basic revolving credit facility. We, my team going back even before, it's easier to find information. We scoured other people's deals and picked out the best part of every deal and then went to our agent, said, this is the deal I want. And rather than we never. I still never let a bank or broker bring the best to me. I was, we always go out with, here's the deal we want. And I seen you do this for ABC company and XYZ company got this. I want that. And that's, you know, we shoot high, shoot high and figure out what's best. I think that's. Some people love that constant rigor of going in and doing what the next great thing is. And some people don't manage well underneath it. And then, you know, we put them in a position where they can best.

Succeed and then, yeah, bring us to the next move. So I think. So you're a treasurer at Brinks Being very successful and everything else. You know, money transmission and security of cash and everything else. And then Owen's a miner bit of a shift. What was that like?

I'm in Richmond, Virginia so it's a small city if you're not familiar with it in the eastern U.S. and we all everyone in corporate finance kind of knows each other. It has done for a number of years. So I knew the cfo, the past treasurer, Owens and Minor for some time and what they present. It was an opportunity to I would say bring a little more sophistication modernization through the program. It's a very old company. A lot of things are still being done in an old fashioned way. So everything from acquisition financing to managing global cash was done well. But it needed a little more modernization sophisticated. That was attractive to me. At the same time there was a desire to grow the organization that required really being willing to forego a investment grade credit rating and moving down to something high quality, high yield rating so we could tap those markets. Something I had done at Brinks. I think it's an important strategically understand where you want to lie in your credit quality in order to grow the business. And then you have to recognize the earnings and cash flow strength and profitability strength of your business. So we specifically want to step down so we could become more and more acquisitive find on that non investment grade. But you still get looked at like investment grade areas where we originally landed. That worked out pretty well for us as we grew through acquisition and then just add more, more more functionality around Treasury. We had to get better linkage between treasury and Tax, better links between treasury and insurance and risk, things like that that were just kind of absent that to bring to the table. So it was a chance to rebuild. I thought as that Brinks I had built an awful lot. I was very proud of what we had accomplished. And the platform that I left was a chance again to go to go go back to own to miner. I know 140 year old company go ahead and actually build a built anew.

And when you were going in there, you're going from as I say the different industries. Was it different treasury wise or just the same thing, different day or different drivers or how did it differ the things. Because again for the listeners out there, if they're thinking shall I go from this corporate to healthcare? Is it right for me? What did you find about it?

I knew I was going from a difficult business to a more difficult business. I think it's proven to be more of a challenging business than I imagined to be but I'm a firm believer and I part because I think when he first came to Virginia worked for as I said, what was Pittston and now Brinks and it was a multi industry company. I'm a firm believer that smart people can adjust to any industry and you don't really need to embed yourself in a particular industry. It can be comfortable but if you like to just learn different things I found it to be wonderfully energetic. Learn healthcare brand new and I don't know if there's anything more complicated than the US healthcare system and I've got to see that more, more so from the inside than I ever would and and sounded energizing. It is very different particularly on our home health business. This is about two and a half billion of our $10 billion in turnover where we get into the dynamics of the third party payer model in the US which there's really nothing like that. So as a healthcare consumer I found it really eye opening to see really how it worked and how complicated it is and how that impacts from a corporate perspective the working capital now its working capital demands varied dramatically between business. Even a universal had tremendous working capital flows because it was a very, very seasonal business based on growing seasons. Springfield a little steadier in their working capital. Owens and Minor again have heavy seasonality in working capital. So that was a dramatic change and part of it is just the nature of the insurance reimbursement model that we have in US healthcare. So that has been interesting and that's been actually a significant driver in how we manage cash and overall treasury functions with Owens Minor.

And one of the key things, you've done a lot of acquisitions across the business lines and that's public knowledge so we're not delving in too careful on this. But you know, it's been out there. What's that been like for you? You know what, you know, what's the journey been like for you in the past six years? So you came in this new treasury role. How have you grown and taken it from there?

Yeah, it's the journey has been somewhat as expected with probably not surprising more challenges. We came in and want to be acquisitive, want to put up, get a balance sheet in place that we could be allowed for acquisition growth. Want to modernize our cash management. We're doing that. We have done that. We have cash flow that works. We move money around the world very tax efficiently. We're not quite follow the stump. We're not quite big enough to get there either. And at the same time where there have been challenges is in business performance. So business performance has led to too much leverage which has really allowed for a focus on working capital. And one of the things again I would say I'm more proud of here, Owens and Miner, we built a working capital discipline probably five years ago, maybe five and a half years ago frankly out of necessity. And it was, it's what started was four or five people in a dark conference room figuring out how do we squeeze more, you know, better ar faster, how do we squeeze more, get better terms on our AP to what is today a 30 person every Thursday cross functional organizational call that is gets the attention of the highest levels of the organization. It's not on time to have our CEO join the call and we talk to our board consistently about our working capital activity because the business has got itself in quite, quite a bind from a tax level liquidity perspective. And it is now I believe part of our corporate DNA to effectively manage our working capital. So while board had a necessity I think we've landed in a very good spot and we've had a, you know, we've had turnover throughout the ranks and it is just, it is a focal point. And we'll this week we'll go through our reviews of each business line for the past quarter and there'll be an in depth discussion every one of those on working capital that didn't exist when I joined the company. It was just not there. And I started by every so often you need to take that working capital free because there's a lot of money companies will leave behind. But here at Owens and Miner we've made it part of who we are.

And you're a $10 billion healthcare enterprise so we can't not touch on Covid. What was that like for you guys? And let's. Well if we drill down more into treasury terms, what would that be like?

Covid was interesting because went into Covid as a pretty leveraged company that had some struggles in its core distribution business. In 2018 we had made an acquisition of a company that frankly manufactured ppe. So we had a very large falling from the earliest days of COVID to try to meet the demand requirements of our customers of the federal government and it was taxing on the global organization. Obviously we went from, we had to ramp up our manufacturing and distribution capability unlike anything we've ever imagined before because we were in the hopefully once in a lifetime pandemic and we didn't really know what that meant from a Treasury perspective. It was basically Initially, fine liquidity and make sure you're still getting paid from your customer. Because our customers, if you remember what happened initially, healthcare stopped. Yeah, yeah. That's why we were concerned that we weren't going to get the inbound cash flow from our hospital customers to put it back into our manufacturing business to make the ppe.

Yeah.

Long story short, that worked out fine. Our customers continue to pay us well. And then we began the cycle of, okay, everything we make, we need to bring back and put it right back into our manufacturer. So working capital, the test conversion cycle sped up very, very, very quickly and that continued really throughout the entire pandemic. So the company, very proud to say, answered the bell as best we could, dramatically increased our production capabilities to serve PPE out in the global marketplace as quickly as we could, to the extent we possibly could. We also that it didn't bring in enough cash flow to allow us to delever the balance sheet and make our most recent acquisition of apria Healthcare in 2022. It was a time of really concern about our customers financial health, those being our hospital customers, financial health. And then making sure that we're really moving tasks quickly enough to get into our manufacturing sites to reduce PPE as quickly as possible. It was fascinating. And looking back, it's one of those things. There's probably no time to think. It was just produce, produce, produce.

Yeah. And in physical terms, insofar as hybrid working from home and things like that, what was it before and what was it during and after? So I think, because I think, you know, that's what I'm speaking about in New York and they're doing AFP and we got hybrid sessions coming out left, right and center, which is all brand new for treasurers. Prior to this, it didn't exist. You know, what was that like?

Yeah, it was interesting. During. Prior to the pandemic, we were, I think, very conventional people in the office five days a week for the most part. In the earliest days of the pandemic, a number of us stayed in the office. We had a healthcare exemption. I stayed in the office. I was team stayed in the office as well. Two reasons. One, there was still a lot of need early on, believe it or not, to signatures on things. So I found myself coming into the office just to find things and then go home again. So that seems silly. We were also in the midst of a divestiture of a European asset sizable enough that required enough of us be together physically that ended in June of 20. And then everybody, then things became basically stay home a Handful of me and my team chose to come in. I'm in a suburban location where we haven't been the luxury of actually being fairly distanced and walled off from each other. So we stayed in. But at the same time we became managing people from afar. I've had the learning, I want to call it a benefit, the learning of always having team members that worked for me in Europe always sat in states. So I had some experience in managing people who were 3,4000 miles away from me. So doing something that is now a couple miles away and learning life in zoom and teams like was a little easier. But we had regular dialogues and I think looking back now, it seemed that we made the transition fairly seamlessly and most people were away. I think sitting here today we have a bit of a break during our summer, summer season. But we have been in a hybrid environment with people in roughly two to three days a week that has worked. Frankly, most of my direct reports have been in the office. More often than that, I'm in the office for the four or five days a week. That's not as a result of my style. It's just their personal preference. At the same time, it's an adjustment even someone as veteran, read old as I am, has been, has made. I don't love it. We're adjusting to it. And I've had the same conversation with younger folks about what they may be missing with interaction. And we've made an effort to make sure that we have enough face to face interaction so when we're not in the office, we all recognize each other. So I just met one of my colleagues, worked with me for the first time in five years face to face last week in here. So that's far too long to go without meeting somebody. And that's not. We want to do. We're going to get into a regular cycle of seeing each other face to face every couple of months.

And it's interesting. I love that about the junior guys as well. We've got a webinar session with Lean up later and we're. One of the things both Katie and I are talking about is that in their why, you know, why are they. They're saying, yeah, I want to work remotely, I want to work from home, want to be flexible and we can understand why if it's more, you know, advantageous to them and everything else, but actually being shown and coached and managed and, and mentored sometimes, you know, that's really difficult. When it was forced upon us, yeah, of course you had to do it, but actually Two to three days with your colleagues. Treasury by its very nature is a very social discipline. And you've just talked about that there. That's, that's something you've seen as well.

Absolutely. And you know, even seeing younger professionals and when they're in and to your point, the why they recognize the benefit of being in, meeting in the office and doesn't mean they don't. They don't enjoy the flexibility of being outside the office. Yes, but they do see the benefit. And even the most drive and say, yeah, I really don't. I want to be remote, but I get why I need to be in. And that interaction, both the social nature of it and understanding who it is you work with every day, as well as the learnings and the mentoring are just critical. And people see it and if they don't recognize it, pretty open about pointing it out. See, this is something you can't do if we're all remote. We can solve a problem so much quicker if we can hop into a conference room and just bang out the issue and we're done and we're all on the same page. So something that's pointed out, but I think people do recognize the benefits of being face to face.

And John, you mentioned that as a veteran treasurer and that's what I'm going to stick with as a veteran recruiter. See, I'm loving that. I'm going to stick with that phrase. We talked before the show that you've got an idea around. One of the big things for yourself is centralized treasury not having regional centers all over the place. And yeah, there might be some reasons to have it, but you're very much pro centralization. What's that about?

Yeah, I think it comes back to who makes the best decisions for the corporation, for the, for the, for the enterprise. And if you're not, I do believe if you're not, if you're on a regional basis or even a local basis, you just unfortunately just don't get to see the entire picture of where CAC needs to go next. And I've done a lot of acquisition of companies that are decentralized. And then I spend time saying, try to understand completely why is the cast where it is? Why are they structured the way they are? And I always come back to, well, they probably didn't get the big picture. And I found that we are in working in a corporate headquarters office that the big picture usually requires centralization of treasury activity and a task and to bring it back to the U.S. now there's work required to get that done. Again, you need to be, you need to have legal and your tax teams at your side to make sure you're doing it smartly and just legally and efficiently. We've done that time and time again throughout my career. And I think it just gives the corporation, you know, corporate asset the breadbasket, if you will, to go out and be strategic with it. Well, here's what we have to work with. And if that liquidity sitting in pockets around the world, you don't have that visibility into what is it we get to work with strategically? And you know, by I have a lot of expressions on my whiteboard and why would you raise money? I view it as self sustainability. There's pockets of cash throughout the world. I don't need it more. I can utilize that cash. The less I need a bank and bank myself and the more I don't need a third party bank, the less I am at the whim of their pricing, their terms of conditions. So I become pretty passionate about it. And I think self sustainability is something every company, regardless of issues that may impact how they manage it, is an important concept to really live by.

You mentioned there about the bringing it all together underneath the banks less but also just thinking out there, there are some regions, there are some countries or areas where it's more difficult to get that centralization. So you know, is that something you spend a lot of your time working on, trying to get the visibility and trying to get control over it or how is it managed?

Yeah, we spend time getting, getting the visibility at a minimum. At a minimum. We need to know what's there and what we think we can do about it. And certainly, and within the last few months it owens a miner, we've made some new investment in some of those countries. And I take it, I find it my responsibility to remind people you're investing in this country. The getting the cash out of the country is going to be difficult and expensive. As long as we all know that going in and what we do then basically, particularly in the early days, we just don't capitalize an entity and just leave the capital there. I mean I believe in minimal, minimalizing the capital structure and the cash in those countries where it's hardest and most expensive to extract cash out of. Everybody likes a cushion, right? Every local manager, every local, every regional finance person likes the cushion. And I just don't believe in a cushion. I believe in operating to the minimum you need to get by. We do the same thing here domestically. What's the minimum we need to get by? You shoot for the lowest common denominator and that's how the best you could do is mitigate the risk of that.

Trap cash and just, you know, we're not that far off the end of the show, but before we get there, I know that you've obviously been involved in a lot of acquisitions throughout the business, again all public, so we're not doing anything private here. But you've integrated lots of different businesses and different units. You touch on it there for you as the sort of coming in as the treasurer and the sort of supervising all of that. What do you when you know there'll be other listeners going oh yeah, we're going to be going into that. Are there any tips you give for people? And they, you know, do you have a tip sheet, a rule sheet for yourself and saying right, we're going to go there. It's about Cash First FX and RiskNecks and this when you're going in for those or is it about the people or what are the key things you'd see that other treasurers should, should think about?

The biggest thing I've learned in doing a lot of M and A moving a lot of new markets geographically ancillary industries is don't assume you have it right. Assume things are done by the other side and other markets your target for a reason and most recent acquisition we have went into that with that approach and quite frankly there really wasn't a good reason. There's just some inefficiencies that we can improve upon. But never assume you have the answer going in. There's usually this very often will be a reason for something being the way it is. Doesn't mean you can't undo it and find a better way. But where I have made my mistakes is assuming that they're probably wrong in their approach and I have a better way or I have a better way to do it and check, check it all, check it all, you know, very carefully in diligence a function like be responsible for doing due diligence of entire deal. But I've learned a lot from that quite frankly. More often than not I usually do make changes of in processes and bank groups and personnel that can be also sometimes on the margin. Sometimes I'm taking entire structure out. But I always try to go in with a very open mind that I. They probably have done this for a very sound business reason and give it some time. I don't, don't rush to do judgment around someone else.

Walk in their shoes first of all as well. Amazing. So okay, so we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes and this is how we wrap up each episode. But you know, if you reflect back, maybe over your career and just some advice for any of the listeners today. What are the takeaways? You've heard this a few times on the podcast, but you know, what are the takeaways you'd like to share with the audience?

Yeah, I think it's important to always be willing to raise your hand. I've been very assertive in doing that, saying, I'll do this. I'll take something off your plate. If you're the, you know, if you're looking upstream, an assistant treasurer or treasurer or anyone and say, hey, I like to learn how to do this and raise my hand if a project comes through, if an acquisition comes through, if a new ERP system comes through, it doesn't need to be part to what you do day to day. I do believe in laser doing for either things that are more directly up the ladder or things that will broaden you out. And I think that's the most critical thing you can do. I think people get too comfortable with their jobs and I have never seen a boss, mine or someone else's that said, no, I don't want you to take on more, learn more, or learn different. So I'm a big proponent of people just raising their hand and getting out of that comfort zone as quickly as possible. And often, if possible.

Great advice. Put your hand up, get stuck in, and there you go. You're not going to look back. John, amazing. Thank you, sir. Some great lessons there. I think people will be all the way through little nuggets, little, little things to little hooks if you like. So I think that's, yeah. Great advice for anyone. Thank you for your time today.

My pleasure.

Yeah, been fantastic. Thank you. Hello, treasury professionals. Before you dive into the next episode, could you please help me continue to grow the world's only global treasury salary survey? That's right, our one. We run the results quarterly so you know your compensation is constantly benchmarked against the market and your peer group each and every three months. It's amazing, isn't it? Just go to treasurysalary.com takes less than two minutes to complete, start to finish. You then gain exclusive, regular, updated access to our salary survey, keeping you ahead of the curve. The survey is an evolving, breathing entity that constantly tracks the salaries of treasury professionals on a global basis. Currently, we have over 1100 participants taking part. By the end of 2023, I want to hit 1500 but that's where I need your help. Please make it happen@treasurysalary.com thank you for being such amazing, loyal listeners. Your support is incredible. Couldn't do it without you. Thank you. Go to treasurysalary.com make it 1500 for 2023. Love you guys.