Mastering the Art of Corporate Finance: A Treasury Perspective with Nils Ostendorf

Foreign to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's Show Notes before we get on with today's show, I wanted to say I can't wait to see all of you lovely people over the next month or so we're going to be heading off to Euro Finance in Copenhagen. In a couple of weeks time we're going to be on the TIS stand hosting a live Treasury Career Corner podcast. So come on over to stand L59. That's L59, so I'll be there. And then two weeks later heading over to Nashville AFP Treasury Conference in the US where I will be talking to lots and lots of you lovely people on day one on the Sunday about optimizing your treasury networking experience at the conference. I've got a different title for it but well we'll tell you more about that. So I want to see you there. If you're going to be there, could you drop me an email, let me know at either of them if you want to meet up. It'd be great to see as many of you as possible. To Mike Treasuryrecruitment.com what I'm also going to say is we have a lovely code for you. Euro Finance Discount Code. If you're going to head to the euro finance, there's a 10 discount code that you can get from us. However, if you listen to today's show, a bit further on in the show there is a special code. That's right, you get even more discount. But you're gonna have to listen to the episode. Listen to today's episode and you'll get a little treat in there a bit later on in the show and look forward to catching up in Copenhagen or Nashville. And now let's get on with the show. In this week's show I'm joined by Nils Ostendorff, the Director of Global treasury at IFCO Management GmbH where he manages global financing, risk management and cash management. Ifco, for those of you don't know, is a leading global provider of reusable packaging solutions for fresh foods. Serving customers in 50 plus countries. They operate a pool of over 370 million reusable packaging containers. Crazy. Globally which are used by 2 billion for 2 billion shipments of fresh fruit, veg, meat, poultry, seafood, eggs, bread, other items everywhere for grocers across the world. We're going to get back onto that a bit later on the show. Nils and I had a great chat before previously about his career. So we're going to go back about how he first discovered finance and treasury, just as we do each and every week. I'm going to shut up, Nils. Over to you, sir. How did it all start for you? Back to the beginning. Over to you.

All started after university. I started in 2001 to look for a job after university. The dot com bubble had just burst. It was quite difficult to get something. I didn't care whether I worked in a consultancy, in a company or in a bank, but what I wanted to do is corporate finance. In the end I ended up at Dresden bank, which was at that time the number two bank in Germany.

And with that you say you want to do corporate finance. Why did you discover that when you were going through education or not really, or you just.

I'm not really sure, but I think mid-80s. Yeah. I read an article about the Nabisco story. Afterwards I read the book. Yeah, this was one of the first private equity deals and leveraged outs by kkr and I think there's a fair. There's a film about it as well. It's Giants at the Door or something like this and.

Sorry, Giants at the gates or something.

Giants at the Gate, yeah.

Yeah, I've seen that, I think years ago. Yeah, a while ago. So.

Yeah, yeah. And this article I read in the newspaper and I said, this sounds great, this is something I would like to do. Yeah. So this was the reason for studying business administration and focusing on corporate finance. And this is where I ended up.

And I hear quite a few then when it's banking now, I hear this in the uk, it doesn't tend to happen so much, but I think it's maybe the way European banks have developed that you get very close to your clients and things like that is a good way to train and develop your finance experience. But you joined Dresdner. Can you talk us through the time you had there and what that was like for you in training you as Developing you as a finance professional?

Yeah, I started there with a trainee program for corporate finance or corporate banking at that time. And. And we were. I was in a team, a member of a team in Stuttgart. Yeah. So we had a lot of. Mostly automotive clients. Yeah. But others as well. And as trainee I saw the different parts of the team which still was in place there. So I was part of the credit team for a certain time. Then I was the relationship team. Then I was in the more or less the back office. Yeah. So I saw different functions than that corporate banking team and this is how I was trained. Then I had some deep dive sessions in credit analysis, which is the focus for banks still at that time. And nowadays as well that you are focusing on analyzing customers, their credit needs, their credit wishes and so on. Maybe it changed a little bit that the banks now ask for the cash flow. In former times they looked more on the balance sheets and the P and L, but in general this didn't change so much. So this is how I got trained. Yeah. And then after the trainee, I got a first role responsible for. With. Together with some relationship managers. I was an associate for one and a half year. Yeah. There I did all the stuff the corporate bankers didn't want to do. Yeah. So I had to analyze the smaller customers. I had to do the telephone work, I had to whatever, prepare documentations, presentations and whatever. This gave me a lot of insights in different industries, different customers, different business models. Yeah. And after that I took over a relationship position and this I did for nearly two years. And there then I was responsible. Yeah. But the responsibility in, in corporate banking is always that you are the head or the face to the customer. Yeah. And so they call you. It's more a key account role. Yeah. They call you whatever problem they have. Yeah. And you look in your team because it always depends a little bit on your client portfolio. But you have normally a cash manager on your team. Yeah. You have one doing risk management, one spending some asset management. Yeah. And the loans and the credits is your responsibility and this is what you're doing there.

And when you were there and developing that, you started to your main clients. Were you dealing with Treasuries day to day and things like that or what sort of. What were the challenges you were seeing coming from treasury departments, I think that.

Time and maybe it was related to the size of the companies. I was, as a junior, I was responsible for the smaller companies. So many treasury departments weren't existing at that time yet. Yeah. So it was mostly the head of accounting doing Some loans. Yeah. Or directly the managing director dealing for with the banks and Treasury. I, I think I only had one client out of 41 client who had a treasury department. And I think this changed during that. During the last 20 years, 25 years. Because nowadays it's not the size of the company who has a Treasury department, it's related to the complexity. And as every company, I suppose it's the same in UK and in continental Europe. The export business is much more than in the past and the internationalization of the business has progressed. So the, even the financing or the cash management part of the companies has an increased complexity. So this needs some specialists.

And then how come you moved on from banking? You were there, you're enjoying it or what happened next? What then tempted you to sort of corporate finance?

The problem in banking is always that you have a credit department, you are sent to sell products. Yeah. In my case it was mostly loans and credits. Yeah. And some cash management. Yeah. But in the end it's the, the credit department who does not tell you no, we don't do it. Yeah. They give you some prices. Yeah. 20 points. The customer should not do this and that and everything. Yeah. In the end it's the same as saying no. But I think they have a different statistic here and gets. Yeah. For no, it's not good or no is not having some constraints. Yeah. And verbalize them makes their life easier. We didn't say no. But you were not able to get it through you with your customer. And this was a little bit annoying. So I looked for the opportunities at that time as I said. Yeah. I was not born to banking. I wanted to start doing corporate finance some years ago. So I still was there eager to do corporate financing. And then I changed the role and went to a company to Otto in.

Hamburg and tell me about that move then. What was that first step into corporate treasury like with you joined Otto Group and things?

Yeah, this was quite a big change for me and because Auto Group at that time and still is one of the major distant sellers and online retailers in Germany and in the world. And they had much more complex products in place than I saw before. So I needed some time to adopt. I was responsible there for together with others for the asset backed security programs. They had two of them. One we did a renegotiation and set it up newly. Yeah. And this was my main task together with being contact person for the subsidiaries. Yeah. If they had some corporate finance questions. Yeah. So this was maybe the parallel or what is it to to the bank yeah. Kind of relationship. Yeah. So if they had questions around corporate finance they contacted us in our team and for a certain group of subsidiaries I was responsible there.

And then from there a natural move upwards up in the elevators. You then joined an Elevator Co. Lys. How did that come about? I know that treasury by its very nature is industry agnostic. Doesn't really matter a lot of the time. But what sort of mail order goods and Internet to elevators and things talk us through that. And industry.

Yeah. Totally different. It came by a headhunter. Yeah. So they called me and asked if I would keen to change. Yeah. And then I slipped in. Yeah. And what's possible there, I met the responsible there. They thought I would able to do it. Yeah. I thought I would learn what I should do there. Yeah. So this was a lot of. Let's say. Yeah. Good thought about future behavior. Yeah. From both sides. Yeah. I thought I could learn it. Yeah. They. They thought I could manage it. Yeah. So this how I got it. It was a little bit lucky there but I managed to. To be elected. I suppose they only, they did not only have one candidate. Yeah. So they had more and they took me and this is. Then I came to Vitu. We only had one, one person at treasury. This was me. The cash management was done as it is in medium sized companies. Often the case. We did the cash management out of the accounting department. Yeah. So I had to set up some structures. Yeah. I. We had a private equity background. Yeah. We. The day before I entered in October 20, 2008 the new role, they closed a loan. Yeah. A syndicated loan. Yeah. So I directly had to start with this syndicated loan. I had to make myself familiar with with it. Yeah. Everybody had some advantages because they negotiated this for weeks before. Yeah. This was quite kind of a cold start there. Yeah. But then I set up the. And established the treasury function. Yeah. Everything lonely related was treasury now and they knew who was responsible for it. Then we set up kind of cash pool and cash management structures together with the accountant accountants in a first step. Then I recruited the first person. Yeah. So we were a small team and we grew step by step. And the move from online sales to elevator components is not so big as it seems to be because the euro and the pound is a pound and the euro independent from the industry and.

With yourself, you've gone in there, as you say, small team. There's no one sort of supervising or advising you in a way. And I often ask this question on the show, how did you. What was your weather vane? If you like, what Were you thinking, right, number one, sort out the cash, number two, look at the risks or what was your checklist? Because you'd, if you like come from, you'd had some experience but not huge amount and then suddenly you're leading the treasury guide. How did you, you know, take it forward?

There were several guides. Yeah. As I said, we had Vitor at that time was a private equity held. Yeah. So I had some contact at the private equity companies. The CFO had some experience. The team which was already there, even if it was focused on accounting and controlling, they. Because this was managed a little bit by them as well before. Yeah. So they helped a lot or you gave some guidance. Yeah. So I was discussing the points. Yeah. So well, my question. So how would you do it? I would it like this. Yeah. And what do you think my experience here? What is your experience? So I think this is how to get the ideas, how to solve the questions and the problems when you don't have experience. Yeah. You have to talk to the people. Yeah. I don't know how often I called the bankers, how they would do something, some special. Yeah. What about cash pooling there? We had some consultancies. Yeah. And they work together with us. So this is, I think this is independent. If you're new in a Treasury role or you are new in a position or whatever, if you are talkative and you are keen to learn and you know where to get the informations or the information, this is helpful and this makes your life easier because nobody is perfect.

And then talk us through the next move sort of thing. So to style and things. Yeah.

You know, we had after eight years private equity held companies with two exits and an acquisition of the number three of the market. Yeah. I thought it would be good to. To look for another opportunity again. I got a call from a headhunter. He offered me a quite interesting job at one of the oldest family owned companies in Germany, Faber Castell Aktingese, the famous pencil manufacturer. And so they offered the. The job of head of Treasury. Yeah. And again they, I suppose they had different options. They took me choose me and this was very good. Totally different to what I had before. Yeah. Because if you are working in a private equity environment. Yeah, normally. Yeah. If it is not distressed private equity, they are keen to. To grow. Yeah. So growth is important. Yeah. The all is focused on growth. You have enough resources to grow and so on. Now I came to Faber Castell. Yeah. When I started there, they were in the period or peak period. They had the best business years until that time. Yeah. So this was the color coloring sketchbook trend was at its peak. So even the adults were painting sketchbooks and paint books. And this was very good for all pencil companies and especially for Faber Castell. Yeah. And one and a half year after this trend stopped by chance as it began by chance. It stopped by chance and then the seasonality went down. So we had to suffer a little bit. Then we came up and after four years I left Faber Castell again directly before Pandemic came. When it went down again.

Yeah. And you then joined ifco. Can you about the company? I talked about it a bit earlier but that's a public statement and some of those. What's it like there? Or talk us through the company again.

It was private equity held, which makes life a little bit easier as I said. Yeah. If you're focused on growth, if you're focused on financing to foster and to finance growth and to get some structures implemented. It's easier in a strong growing company than with such a seasonality as I had before at faberkastel. And this was the aim. Yeah, this was the goal when they hired me to have someone who can finance growth and who finance the development. Even if GO was a company or as a company who had several different owners already. So they were first when they were founded they were family owned. Then they were already stock listed. Then they were private equity held to an Australian packaging company and shortly before I came it was sold to new private equity owners. Yeah. A 5050 share between Triton and ADI and they wanted to grow business and do everything. And there was already a small treasury department. Yeah. But they saw that all the tasks which were done before by the by brambles which was the Australian packaging company owing Coke we had to set up ourselves. Yeah. So we had to grow all teams. When I came, for example, treasury legal and tax department at ifco was smaller than the marketing department. Yeah. So this was not the best. Yeah. For a standalone company. So we had to set up not only in treasury but even in treasury we had to set up the team. So now we are four and a half FTEs. Yeah. And this was the task. And to grow with the tasks which are there. Yeah. To finance growth, to manage the loan we have which was more mostly the purchase price, refinancing, doing the reporting, established structures to do this, agree on a format and everything. This is what we did at that time.

We talked there at the head of the show that the. Obviously the business is about boxes your. Yeah. And there's also then cleaning processes that go behind that. So it's not just a straightforward as here's a box boom. It's then bring it back. It's the recycling. It's looking after that and all of that. That then brings with it challenges on capital expenditure and capex is high and so obviously treasury is the forefront of those. How have you. How has your role evolved? How have you got involved in that? Because I think again for the listeners now listen to go. Oh, hang on, it's a box company. Yeah. But hang on, there's lots more than that. So I know you and I talked about this. Maybe you can explain for the listeners how treasury gets involved.

Yeah. I think it's most of all it's a pooling company. Yeah. It's. Even if our pool exists of boxes, reusable packaging containers and you. This is the same as with other pooling companies or renting companies. Yeah. You have to first invest in earning assets. Yeah. And then you have to rent them. Yeah. Get them on track. Yeah. So they. To gain money there. Yeah. And then the flows come back. Yeah. So this is quite a different one. Yeah. So you have to invest heavily because our contract partners are the retailers Europe. Yeah. And if there's a retailer who wants to do good for his. Yeah. Supply chain and for his ESG goals. Yeah. He changes from cardboard to RPCs. Yeah.

And RPCs for the audience.

Yeah. It's a. The reusable packaging container. This is the rpc. Sorry, the.

That's all right, that's great. And what. What's the shelf life of the container or what's the. The throughput there again? Because then that brings me other dimensions, doesn't it?

For treasury, the useful life of an RPC is more than 10 years. Yeah. But nevertheless, as you are growing and you have kind of shortage and breakage, you have to replace them. Yeah. So funding is necessary even if you have constant flows from your rentals. And this is what we have to manage. So it's a close relations to all the controlling and set. Controlling department. Yeah. When they plan how to grow with the retailers with already existing retailers or to grow with new retailers. Yeah. This is strategic because production cannot deliver as much crate as new crate retailers need from day one on. Yeah. So it's a ramp up phase. Yeah. It's time shifted. Nevertheless, the financing has to do before or at the beginning of the process and then you ramp up retailer step by step. And once the target volume of RPCs which are necessary or are needed by the retailer are. Yeah. You have to. Or the Production planning has to replace all the broken and lost crates which have to be financed as well. So this is the main task from a financing perspective.

And when you say about the financing this is how you'd original. I'd originally seen your details. We've had a number of amazing cast guests come from Germany and Wolfgang and Porsche and we've had a number of other great guests. But then I follow the news a lot of the time because there's lots of big deals going on and things like that. And one of the key things I'd seen with you guys is you've done your sort of amend and extend facility and featured and things like that. Can you. We're going to. Without getting too technical. But we'll get a little bit technical because we need to. This is less than the treasurers. So this is for you treasury folks out there. Can you describe what you. What that means and treasury terms what that was like for you and the team.

The background for this transaction was our purchase price financing. So the leverage loan we had since May 2019 when our new shareholders came in. So this was the classical financing of the purchase price or at least the share which was left at IVCO. And the maturity of the loan was in late 2025. And we observed the market together with our banks. Yeah. And as the term loan B is a product where the lenders are now banks but debt forms. Yeah. And so we noticed the re inflow in this new or in the debt form market. And we checked this and observed this and it seemed that the flow is reduced due to the increased interest rates. Yeah. The investors could get some other returns here with less risk due to the increased interest rates. And we were checking this thoroughly in last year in 2023. And it seemed that it will be difficult to have enough funds. Yeah. Not only for us to refinance our loan or to refinance all this maturity loans and bonds which were given out in 2020. 2021. Yeah. And the banks called it the maturity wall in 2526. So we wanted to be the forerunner here and wanted to be at the beginning of the refinancing action. And this is why we entered the market very early this year. So we started our marketing process already in January after the intense discussions with the banks setting up our business plan. Have some circles and rounds with our shareholders with the rating agencies. We had intense discussions. And so once we were ready. This was at the end of January we went to the market and then it's a very tight time frame which you have there. Normally, even if you're already an established an issuer in the market, you can do it within 10 days as we did. So we launched it on Monday. We had our introduction call to the lenders or interested parties on Tuesday, we had one on one calls on Wednesday and Thursday afterwards we had more than 400 questions to answer with our small team which consisted of the CFO, the head of nowadays, VP sales controlling the VP controlling and myself. Yeah. So four people, 423 questions in a short time. And we managed all to answer all of them.

Just relaxing. Just a relaxing week that week.

Yeah. And yeah, I think this is the typical one. And we noticed a lot that even the last day. So I think at 12:00 clock German time, 11:00 clock London, it was a deadline. Yeah. For all offers. And even at 10:20 we lastly received. Or we received the last question. Yeah. And this was more related to how does this work? So what is a pooling company really doing? Yeah. And do you have a new pool for a new one? And how do you manage to. That this retailer has only the new crates and not the old crates. Yeah. So we noticed that we have to start and explain several times and again from scratch and explaining what the pooling companies do. It does. Or what the pooling company does.

Nils, I want to pause you there. So if we have a treasurer who number one is in a similar situation, that there's no pressure for them, that they know down the line something is going to happen and you took early action sort of thing. So let's ask about that. Firstly, that's one of the key things I'd like to know. And then I've got a follow up question that I've trained myself. I've got better at this. I only asked one question at a time. So you're unlike the guys that were investing. So with that, how would you say that treasurers should be thinking or preparing themselves? Should they always be thinking about this or how were you observing it? Just looking at the market. So what was the trigger?

The trigger came from the maturity from the market, from the information we obtained. Yeah. So this was. And then we like to be the front runner. Yeah. So this is. And the things you have done. Yeah. Maybe you could do it a little bit later, cheaper or maybe more expensive. Yeah. But you have it done already and then you can go for a repricing, for example. This is always an opportunity and a possibility you have. But we like to have things already done before the wave comes and you never know. And this was a window of opportunity for all of us and I think it was a good timing and we were quite successful there.

And so looking back at these lessons you learned and the question you were getting at 10:20 in the morning and you're like, oh my goodness, here we go. What can others learn from that or what have you? If you reflect back on that process was that were there things that you could do better? But if you're sitting there having a beer with another treasurer and they say you've been through this, we might have to go through it. What advice could you give me? What sort of mini checklist would you give them or things you do not to do?

One of the major lessons learned is don't estimate the KYC process even with existing lenders. I don't know why, but all of them came and I was always asking why didn't you ask the question during the last four years? So no, it is if it comes again, we have to ask all the questions. We don't have this kind of rolling process if needed and there's a new loan or an amend extent, we have to ask all these questions. So don't underestimate. This is just quite complex. Yeah. And a colleague of mine, I think he did two months. Nothing different than KYC questions answering. Yeah. So this was quite challenging. And the other question is, how can you explain your business model in a nutshell that really everybody understands it might be difficult because a pooling company is not really a business model you see every day, even if you are getting your water bottled out of a pooling company's crates. Yeah, maybe, but. And this is a lesson I already learned with when I were with Prisoner bank at the beginning of my career. Yeah. Each company, even if they are in the same industry, has a different business model. And it's worth to investigate and now it's worth to explain it. What are the differences? Yeah. What are we doing? Yeah. And we underestimated this. As I said. Yeah. Even 40 minutes before the deadline there was still the question. Even. And we already explained this several times during the one on ones during the lender presentation, even in the information we shared with the lenders or interested parties all included this. But we underestimated this a little bit. The business model. Yeah. But I think we made it. Yeah. Because we were quite successful. We had more or we had. There was more money offered than we needed and wanted. Yeah. And so I think we were successful. But this is a lesson learned.

Hello, lovely podcast listener. Sorry to interrupt today's episode, but it's worth it. This is your secret extra discount code that will save you even more on the upcoming Euro Finance conference. That's right. You can save even more by being a podcast listener. Thank you for listening. So for LinkedIn audience members, we gave them a 10% discount, but that's okay. But you're special, you are a regular podcast listener, so thank you very much. We love you guys and thank you for all your support. But you also get to save 15%. That's right. 1 5. So 15 entry to the amazing 33rd Euro Finance International Treasury Management Conference. The code you have to use when booking and that you just use the same booking link that's in the show notes. But the code you have to use is MKTG, like marketing without the vowels. MKTG forward slash TCC. That's Treasury Career Corner TCC. That's what you're listening to. Thank you. So, MKTG forward slash TCC. 15. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but it's worth it. 15 saved just for listening to today's podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you for being a loyal listener to the podcast. And anyway, as I say, let's get back on with the show. Many thanks. And Nils, I know you speak sometimes at conferences or you get involved and asked to go do various things. When you are doing that, you usually looking at the future of treasury or the things that you're seeing coming down the line. As a treasurer, what are the things that you think other treasurers need to be thinking about? What are you. When you go to a conference, you're having a coffee with someone, what are you discussing with them? We've got all the different things. We've got AI, we've got cyber, we've got all this. What are the things that you're thinking about, if you like?

I think cyber is always an item you have to discuss. Yeah. And you have to share where you are and what you are doing. I think this is very helpful if you are sharing your experiences. Yeah. Even if you have not been hacked or attacked there, which is. It's good. Yeah. But nevertheless, everybody should be aware that this might come in the next moment. Yeah. I think nobody is or can be assured that nothing happens. So it's important to have a. A plan B in case there's a hack on your. Or an attack. This is one item. The other item is the future of technologies you are using. And so is it AI? The discussion. Is AI helpful? Yeah. Can you. What about medium sized companies? What about bigger companies? Is AI helpful? Is it? Or would it be enough to have RPIs, robotic process automation in place? Where can it help? How do you. And the other one is. Yeah. Sharing experiences. Yeah. How did you do this? How did you do that? Yeah. And can you tell me. So this is. These are the main topics we discussed there.

And that's one of the things that we do with the show, actually. That's why this podcast exists. Knowledge share. And we get sometimes feedback. Thank you for all you do for the community. And I think that's one of the reasons we do it. But it's actually not the main reason. If you. I've been talking to treasurers for 25 years and I've loved it so much. I wanted to then share your stories and your story as a treasurer, because it's not like some of the other finance disciplines. Treasury is really interesting.

Yes, it is.

It's more interesting than some of the other areas. We. Someone said that the other day on one of the podcasts. Oh, I don't want to be rude about accounting. I mean. Carry on. I said they're not listening to this podcast and if they are, they want. Against Treasury. You want to get in the fund. Yeah. Before we wrap up the show, anything else you think you've managed teams, you've been through a number of different industries. What are the areas that you think. Yeah, we'll put. I was going to say we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes, but an extended takeaway section if you like. What are the things you think that people need to be thinking about if they are treasurers today, if you like.

Even if with your podcast or other possibilities. We have in Germany, for example, the treasurer. I think it's important to share experiences and I think it would be great to do the next step. Yeah. Especially when I talked about kyc. We are still facing. Beside our A and E transaction, we are still facing so many challenges from KYC and have different sheets, questions and whatever to answer from banks who should have the same regulator. And all of them interpret the issue differently. I think it would be good if we got more organized there. Treasurers. Yeah. And speak with one voice. Yeah. And get an agreement there how to get this solved. Because talking to bankers, even for them, it's not a good task to call a customer asking for care. And I think this would be helpful.

Cool. And as I say, I think any final takeaways just for anyone listening today. Any other things? If you're a Treasury professional today, as you reflect back on your career Is there anything else you think that people should be thinking about except that we're already in Treasury? So you love it? I love it. What other things are you thinking?

I think you should be aware that even with the colleagues you have in controlling and accounting, we are all driving the same car, but treasury is the only team who looks in the future, has the forecasts and looks ahead when controlling and accounting is looking in the rear mirror, drive differently than we do. And I think if you're fascinating of the future, if you are able to manage the unknown. Yeah, you are right in Treasury.

What a great advertisement. I'm going to leave it there. I think that's brilliant. And yeah, we're going to put that on the. That'll definitely be one of the takeaways from the show. So thank you very much. You've been an absolute superstar, Nils, and thank you very much for your time today. You've been great.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir. So I hope you enjoyed this week's podcast as much as we did making it. If you are one of our listeners, please let me know. Give us a thumbs up on LinkedIn or wherever you might listen to the podcast. But also I'd love to give some shout outs at some stage, something I wanted to do a few times. So please let me know you're listening. Sometimes we record them. We have amazing guests, but I don't know. You are listening to us, you are hearing us. Where are you listening to us? Are you walking along the beach or on your commute to work? It's amazing when I do get feedback. So we've got some amazing other events and guests coming up on the show. So we've had Treasure Career Corner Live month which was amazing. Then we've got series of great guests, Stephanie Custer, Greg Packard, James Kelly, Dave Cable, the Go Brothers, Eugene Spevakov and a number of others coming up. So we're also got then the live sessions recorded throughout the rest of the year. We're going to be doing it in Dublin, in New York. Then we're going to be doing some other events, maybe Euro Finance, we're going to head off across back to London as well. So yeah, we'll see you at one of those. So but as always, this podcast is, is supplemented, is supported by the Treasury Recruitment company. So go to treasury recruitment.com if you're looking to recruit, call us. If you're looking to find your next role, call us. If you're looking to benchmark your salary, go to treasurysalary.com that's all we do for recruitment needs? You can for the us, you can go to Joe Grabowski, supported by me, Mike Richards, joe@treasuryrecruitment.com Katie, who supports us across Europe, K A T I e@treasury recruitment.com and me, Mike Richards, mike@treasury recruitment.com as I say, we've got lots more trips. We've done New York, Texas, London, Chicago, Greece coming up. We've got Dublin, New York, New York. Yes, twice. We've got two of them. Afp, Nashville. We've got the uk, we've got other events coming up. I can't wait. So keep an eye on our events page and everything else. Do the salary survey. We've got got over 1200 people doing it now. We're going to run our next set of results at the end of Q3. In time. Just in time for Euro Finance, actually, in Copenhagen. So looking forward to that. But if you need us, reach out. If you want to connect, just drop me an email mike@treasuryrecruitment.com or find me on LinkedIn and look forward to the next podcast and seeing you soon at a conference. All right, many thanks.