Mike Richards Reveals the Latest Treasury Career Trends on The Treasury Update Podcast

Foreign. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where actually this week we've got a bit of a change. I'm being interviewed me, Mike Richards, the host of the Treasury Career Corner. I'm actually getting interviewed by Craig Jeffrey from Strategic Treasurer. He has his own podcast, the Treasury Update podcast, which is a very good podcast. I'll head you over there. Don't leave us. But anyway, Craig's a great friend and what he wanted to do was talk about, well, what the. Exploring the rebounds from the depths of this Covid crisis. What's happening with Treasury Careers? Does geography matter? A number of other things we explore in the show. We talk about what's changing in the working from home environment, mentoring, etc, etc, you know, coaching. If you're on zoom, are you an introvert or extrovert? So we explore that a little bit. We also talk about treasurysalary.com which you should all have taken part in our treasury salary. Please go over there. Takes you two minutes. Gives you a really great objective salary survey you get from last year's one, which is 80 plus pages. We're going to cut it down this year, make it a bit more digestible. So we're just working on that over the summer as well. And also he wants to sort of know about any ongoing trends, how we're recovering and everything else. So it's really great show, really enjoyed it. Weird being the other side of the microphone, but anyway, as I say each week that's enough from me and it's over to me. Well, me and Craig, but mostly me. All right, speak to you guys soon and looking forward to. Yeah, catching up with lots of people in September. All right, see you soon, Mike.

Welcome back to the Treasury Update podcast, Craig.

Delighted to be back and as we said, and we've said a few times, it's quite weird to be this side of the microphone and you asking me questions. I've got used to it now, hundred plus podcasts myself, just like yourself. It's great fun when we're grilling our guests, getting to know them and everything else, but when it's the other way, I'm just like, oh, me? What? You're asking me a question? Hang on, buddy, it's my turn. But no, I will. I'll try my best and tell. Well, try and give some advice to people in this weird, weird world that we live in nowadays. So, yeah, well, back to you, Craig, this is your show.

So there's several different areas that I wanted to talk about that I was really interested in. One is about treasury positions. You know, we're in this rebound from the depths of the COVID 19 economic impact. And I say that because one of the major banks, chief economists, talked about, you know, how we're already in recovery from the sharpest, deepest, fastest recession, but as we rebound from it, what, what are you seeing that's going on career wise? And I know we talked a little bit earlier, you said there's some differences by region. So what, what are you seeing and.

Are things changing there in general terms, career wise? This is what the listeners today, this is what treasury professionals, I think, were born to do. It might sound like an ending closing statement, but it's more, you got, you know, you guys out there, you're planning for this, you're getting ready for financial crises, you've got to focus on liquidity, risk management and everything else. And that was really something that sort of jumped out at me that I thought, do you know what? This is what you guys were born to do. And you've been doing it in different places and as you say, it's been different in different areas. As Craig mentioned earlier, we cover the globe and we recruit predominantly uk, Europe and the us and each of the regions has been different. I think the pace of COVID if you like, has been. And the reaction within different countries has been different, which has then had a slightly different effect, some commonalities, but a different effect with different people in different treasury teams and treasury departments.

So is like, if you take the U.K. for example, is it different, you know, in general, or is it by specific industries or what are you saying? Let's start in the UK here, your.

Home base, basically, people were continuing to recruit right up until lockdown. And then lockdown came. Everyone said, right, work from home, you're not coming to the office for six months. I mean, I made the joke that any other year, that beginning of April, you said to someone, oh, by the way, you're going to work from home for the rest of the year, blah, blah, blah. Oh, yeah, nice April Fools. And they're like, no, this is what's happening. Whilst it was previously seen as a benefit, people working from home, now a new norm. In some ways that people are doing that and I think there's had a positive effect in some ways that people have been seen to sort of perform very well in certain situations, I think there is a negative effect. And, you know, certainly from talking to some of the UK operational level staff, you know, very much ops people have said about use of technology and stuff like this, it's Less about that. It's more the interaction. You know, people have said about, oh, but we have a zoom call where we have a beer every Friday with all of the team and stuff like that. That's all right, but that's not sitting across a table and looking the person in the eyes. If a Treasury analyst has a problem, you know, they. They go, oh, who do I look to? Hang on. Oh, they look to their right and there's a brick wall, same to the left. Oh, how do I call? You know, do I call my boss? Do I call my boss's boss? I think it's still. That working from home piece still has to be worked out, I think, as we return. And that's what I'm seeing. And a lot of the talk is about coming back in September. And as everyone returns post vacation season, I think it will improve, but I think it's a bit more of a balance. I think certainly from the conversations I've had, one of the things I've picked up is a lot of people will do maybe the working from home across the weekend. So the Friday and Monday, they'll be at home Tuesday, Wednesday in the office, you know, getting to, you know, see people getting together. Some of the meetings still socially distance, using sanitizer, doing all that stuff, face masks if need be. But then also maybe the Thursdays, a bit more of the focus day, as I do every week, and that's meeting clients, meeting candidates. So it's sort of a new kind of. It's a new norm. It's a new balance, really.

I mean, that's an interesting perspective on how it's going to change when we come back. It might be more remote. You mentioned the, hey, I'm looking at the walls, whether it's brick or Sheetrock or what have you. This, I don't know if you want to call it socialization, but the face to face, the ability to have these casual conversations, you know, the broader conversations that people pick up on, leading to discussions, don't happen unless we're intentional. So how's this impacting things like mentoring, development, work on teams and projects? What's falling apart in the work from home or what's the negative side of that?

Well, I think you nailed it there a little bit. It's not falling apart yet, but some of this, before Pre Covid, everything else, I'd be talking to treasurers, they'd be talking about how they were great technical treasury specialists and everything else. And then as we dug into it and people got more senior, we were talking A lot more with them. And I do still talk to them about how they're more in charge of their teams and there's much more communication going on. They were technical specialists as treasury managers, now the communication specialist, coaching and mentoring treasury teams. I said, great, what training have you had on that? And they said, what? And I said, you're acting as a mentor. Someone sort of mentored you in the past, shown you how to do that with maybe your softer skills skills or your coaching or communication skills. And, you know, if it's a video call, there's sort of. I get a blank face. If it's a call like this, there's a sort of long pause and I think I, you know, pre Covid people weren't, you know, guys in treasury weren't getting this coaching and I think actually they're learning on the job now. I think a number of employers need to review this because they are stuck, if you like, they're trying to do it. But have they ever received any professional training? And the answer is usually no. I think it's in an area where guys in treasury are doing well because they are people that will take a situation and run with it and make the best out of it and everything else. But I think there's a massive opportunity. So, you know, someone out there listening. I said this again on the call with some big treasurers and the head of the UK association of Treasurers. If someone came out with a remote coaching course for treasury professionals, I think it would sell out 10 times over because they're going, oh, you know how to coach. Working from home team members. It's a massive issue. I think that's, you know, people are getting through it, but how temporary is it? Is it. You know, some of our clients, one of the clients actually said that the treasury team is only going to be expected to come into the office once a week, right up to Christmas, or sort of post Christmas, rather. So between now and then, they're not even thinking that we're not going to see you. That's five months away. They'll see you over zoom, but not going to see you in person. Really. Yeah. A very different situation than perhaps we've seen before.

As you're talking with people and discussing this, there's the initial everyone. Everyone goes home. They're sheltering in place and they're connecting. They got past the initial tech issues and they're working on the farther down tech issues. On the interaction side, did people take more steps to make sure they're communicating at the beginning and has that lightened up at all as we've gotten farther or are people being pretty consistent about making sure they're staying in touch with those who are?

It's the latter. I think that there was, I think there was also had a podcast this morning with a really leading treasurer who they have been absolutely whacked sideways, a food services company. So, you know, there are no food services. You know, nobody's getting on a plane, nobody's going to a school. So their revenues are, you know, through the bottom, but they've raised massive amounts of liquidity and they'll ride out of it. But when I spoke to him about how they were getting on, and this is also comes through from other treasurers initially and they were very proud of their teams and things, but I think initially they were just let's cope because no one knew how long it was going to last. You know, it was a, it was different to the recession of 2008 because that was an unknown quantity. Everyone chucked every stimulus you could and you just had to sit on your hands and wait. This time people could plan their way out of it, but they were planning throughout it. They didn't know. You can plan for it, but you can't predict to say, oh, it's over, it's over. We've got. In Europe, they've got a second lockdown coming in. In Spain, they've got the various other bits. You're still planning for it, but in treasury terms and going back to the individuals planning for it. Right, everyone heads down and then a couple of months in, oh, okay, this is different now. This is, you know, we're not, it wasn't just all cope. This bit again we spoke. I spoke to Sally Ding, treasurer of Heathrow on the this act panel. When I spoke to her and we were talking live and she said about how much more she's had to do on a personal, personal level with the team, you know, so sitting down, doing more individual one to ones doing more support, not because they need it, but because she feels that they deserve it. So I think. So it was a more of a giving thing rather than them going, oh, help me, help me. Because she just sensed that and I think it was a really accurate way of doing it. And again, from the other treasures that I've been having on panels and the other treasures I've been talking to, it's not new to them, but it's more that. It's a more form, slightly more formal process that is, it's in the diary, you know, before we Just grab a coffee together. Now it's. You can't grab a coffee because you 100 miles separated. You might be. So it's actually. Right, let's sit down, let's do a sky. Let's do a Zoom coffee. And I think the treasurers that have done that are certainly showing greater signs of success, you know, when they're coming out of this as well. And I think they are. A lot of them are coming out with renewed vision for renewed recognition rather from say the cfo, you know, when I'm talking to them and saying, oh yeah, the CFO's really stepped up. But also said to me, thanks for doing this. You really. And then getting a little bit more FaceTime because you treasurers and treasury professionals at heart of this crisis, really, and getting us through the other side sort of thing.

Yeah, the born for this type of environment. Right. Treasury, treasury is born for turbulence, though we do enjoy the calm times between the storms. But one last item on this. You know how treasury careers and the dimensions of work have changed. We're meeting by teams, meeting by Zoom. How do you see this change in the interaction? I know you do recruiting, so you're, you're on, you're on Zoom or teams all the time. And does this help the introvert, help the extrovert, or is this just an adaptation situation?

I heard a phrase and someone said that all the size of the Zoom windows are the same, no matter what level of seniority you are. Okay. And then the follow up to it was they felt that now the treasury analyst voice was being heard at the same level as a Treasury manager, the same level as a deputy treasurer, same level as a treasurer, because everyone was equal and things like that and technical phrase. I thought that was baloney. I don't agree with it. I think that actually it will bring to the forefront some of the people that do have something to say. We do regular Zoom calls. As Craig just mentioned there. We got a group Zoom call from our Bounce Back program. And the fact is, you know, I've had a couple of treasurers on there who'd say nothing throughout the call. I've got a couple of treasury managers who really jump in, you know, and you know, as you say, I think it comes down to that introvert, extrovert and we have to artificially bring out some of those introverts because they've got some great stuff to tell us and some great feedback and, you know, would that be, is it, is it helped by being on Zoom? Possibly? Yes, I think it is because you're able to tease them along, have a more of a planned conversation, if that's the right way. You think, oh, actually I can bring Jane into this call because you can specifically ask Jane a call. Would you necessarily do that in the, in the break room or in the treasury room, treasury team, where you're based and things like that? Maybe. Sometimes. Not that, you know, that Jane does get, you know, sort of overruled or doesn't really say much in a meeting, but in general terms, I think. I don't see. Not everyone is an extrovert in treasury, but introverts tend to still do very well because of their analytical skills, because of things they can bring to the table and everything else. And it's a. I think treasury is a very balanced discipline where people can actually contribute, whatever their personality type. So, yeah, it is an interesting one. And I've, you know, I've seen it myself firsthand from, you know, a lot of these guys on these big zoom calls. And I'm like, but come on, join us.

Yeah, maybe that more, more treasury people are introverts, you know, versus being energized by discussions. They're energized by, by data analysis and then do it. Who knows? But some, some great points, Mike, there. I wanted to talk about treasury career velocity or, or turnover. Is there. What's the job situation look like?

It's pretty static at the moment, but I think that's static.

Low, low or just paused.

I saw. Actually, I think it was from the AFP in the US they did a study where they were saying that 80% of hiring was put on hold. And I was like, wow, I was shocked there was that much hiring going on because I hadn't seen it. Q1 is traditionally quite quiet anyway. And actually the. There's a good point on this about bonuses and things like that. People were collecting their bonus and then you traditionally see things start to lift up come March. People are saying, right, time for a move before, you know, get into the next cycle, my next bonus. And Mike, I want to make a move and everything else. And actually that's just as March, April, boom. Everything stopped. And there was still recruitment going on, but it tended to be much more at operational level. We had a number of. We actually had two maternity leaks requirements. And as one of the treasurers said, he said, well, she's having those twins whether or not we get someone to replace her. I was like, right. And he said, so we've got to replace her. And the person that is doing the job has been Onboarded remotely has never actually met face to face in the same room as the treasurer yet. But they've been recruited and they're on boarded as a senior treasury manager doing a great job. And it's fantastic, actually. But that's been. The weird thing is, and we've onboarded two or three other operational staff that are still working remotely and still doing their treasury jobs, whereas normally they'd be through 12 rounds of interviews face to face. And that's not stopped any of the process. What has stopped is that some of the more senior positions have been paused. I think as we start to come into September, I particularly think it is going to pick up because I think it follows more natural terms we're entering into now. We're doing this recording end of July, going into August, this vacation season, people still need going to take their holiday and take a break. Whether it's more of a staycation doesn't really matter. People are still going to use that come September. October is going to pick up, I think what is different? And Craig, you sort of prompted me. We've got our salary survey which we'll perhaps come onto. But one of the things that when I was doing a lot of the consideration of this, if you look at the level of businesses, so many of them taken massive knockbacks and one of the things here, so you look at aerospace, for instance, retail, no footfall, because people to walk around the recruitment industry itself, some of the larger recruitment companies have made massive cutbacks. Those are the losers in this situation. Whereas you've got some of the winners might be more utility groups. So gas, electric, food delivery services, technology companies and anyone that was manufacturing webcams is absolutely loving it now. You know you've got those privately held companies because in the past, sometimes when they're competing against public companies, you know they're doing well as a big corporate. Everything else. Those guys have been absolutely not sideways, which has meant that the following effect is the people would get their bonus based on the turnover of the PLC or the success profitability of the plc that they're gone. You know, the. Everyone will say, oh yeah, my bonus is in the last quarter or first quarter, they're not here. That's not going to be happening this year. Or they might recover partway. And so that anchor, if you like, to holding them into their employment, that's going. That's disappearing now, that's off. Which is in itself going to be an interesting one. I think it'll be a more fluid year for recruitment later on in the Year. So yeah, look out. I think it could be, I'm hopeful of a busier time. I think people are getting used to this new norm again and we'll get on from there. Really.

Yeah, yeah. And I guess as we look at from a geographical perspective, us, uk, Europe, maybe others, any one of those rebounding faster than the others.

Well, Europe takes a longer vacation throughout the summer, they tend to. But that was actually later into close down. But now is already starting to build up a bit earlier we were quite surprised. We're doing a lot of work actually and if anyone wants to work in the Middle east, we've got a number of roles and those guys just carrying on, they're just, you know, I'm recruiting three or four very major positions out there and I'm like, wow, uk, it's ticking over. The US has, well, certainly for us, we recently we've seen it properly stopped. There was a little bit of a, oh, are we coming back to life for a bit? It's come to a halt. At the moment I'm talking to a number of clients but when I'm talking to them it's the typical situation and what I mean by that, when someone, they're looking to recruit and I said look, if I kick off this campaign, Mike, well, the CFO is going to be away for the next two weeks. Oh okay, fine. And then actually I'm away for a week and oh, okay. So there's that sort of knock on effect that when I'm talking to them they say, well actually should we just kick off things in September? And I think that might also help. We do predominantly a lot of work in the east coast around Chicago and things like that. They're very busy areas for us that's starting to show a return to Life, but probably 50% on what it was this time last year. But I think that's an artificial thing. I think it is because when I'm talking to clients they're saying, well actually we're just going to wait till post summer. Everyone will be backing around. California's going into a second lockdown virtually. I think that's really tough for the guys out there. And people are saying, oh, we're going to recruit in this lockdown. People want to meet people and there's economic things and if people or other people in the team are on vacation, there's an increased workload and you need a full team to be able to then focus your efforts on the recruitment piece as well. So yeah, I fully expected to get back to more normal Levels of recruitment, more fluidity. September through to December, well, September onwards really. I think slow start. October will be flying.

Does the job situation, you know, this activity in hiring and recruiting, does that precede, rebound or, or let's call it full, full employment or does it trail?

It's, it usually trails it to be honest. And again, yeah, it's sort of, it's funny and I speak for treasury recruitment, I'm treasury specialist. But, but what I mean is when I talk to some of my friends in other financial recruitment areas, you know, I've started to spe speak to some of those guys and they're, they're seeing some recovery. They're doing, you know, they're busier than we are and they always will be and they always seem to have been. My rule of thumb is that we're usually busier three to six months after some of those guys. And also when there's a downturn and I don't know 100% the facts, but when there's a downturn, a lot of the time we're still busy for another three months and then we sort of, then our market catches a cold. Maybe it's just the nature of Treasury. A lot of the people we talk with, low volume, high value. So typically speaking, treasury professionals are very highly qualified, know their finance stuff. A lot of the, you know, some of those guys I talk to, they're recruiting a more junior finance recruitment level. So they might have. And also less planned, as it were. So when they might pick up the phone, a client's doing new projects, they say, right, we want four FP and A guys and we want this and we want that. I don't get a phone call, whichever says, hey, I need four treasurers. I wish I did, it'd be a very great Christmas that time. But you don't get that. You get Mike, our treasurer is going to move on in three months or he's coming to retirement or she is or she might be going off maternity leave. Actually we're going to need someone for a year. It's a much more planned talking to them now. When's that going to kick off? Oh, November. It's a much more strategic planned changes. A lot of the time that's what happens within Treasury, I think in general.

You know, in terms of working from home and career mobility. You know, you mentioned the Middle east. You've got a number of high level jobs open. Does this, hey, we're living in the work from home environment and that might become the normal environment, it seems. Does this mean that Treasures are going to be working in lots of different locations that might differ from where their company's headquarter is. I know some people have like, hey, I'm moving to the beach or I'm moving someplace else, a couple anecdotes about that. They were, they were, they tended to travel anyway. And they just said, I'm going to live where I want. As long as I have high Internet and can get to a major airport, I'm. I'm good. Is that going to change where people are working from?

I think it will based on its country. So in the US it's much more practical that you might have someone Midwest doing a lot more exactly as you say there, Craig, with your anecdote that they might have been traveling for work before, they might not have to travel so much now, but it might be one week out. Again, when I'm talking to a client just last night actually, and he was talking about that. But one to two weeks out of four, he will go to the headquarters, which is a plane flight away. He'll either do two weeks there and then two weeks back home and it doesn't make that much of a difference for him. Or the actual thing is, as you say, people don't have to be in work all the time. They can zoom. I think there will be greater flexibility in working. And it's funny actually, my colleague Katie was talking about the European markets and just bring it back to that. She sort of said that working from home isn't alien in Europe, but number of most businesses set up to accommodate this prior to Covid. Yeah, they were. But the actual fact I then make comment, but often it wasn't practical, but actually I think it was also frowned upon. Is that. Oh, is he? Is he? Well, he's at home this week. Is he? Oh, right. Okay. So he's not actually working all the time. Is he picking up the kids from school or is he walking the dog?