Money Police and The Treasury Nerd: The Unique Path of Trish Fisher

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week I'm joined rejoined by Trish Fisher. Trish joined me recently our Treasury Career Corner live in New York in September. One of three amazing guests alongside David Viney from Harley Davidson and Frank Barbara from Blackstone and had such a good time. I said look Trish, come back on the show, please give some more of this value which he's very kindly agreed to give to us today. Trish is the treasurer at Wafra. Wafra are a New York headquartered alternative investment management firm, currently managing assets and commitments across a variety of asset strategies. Behind their investment strategies are talented professionals just like Trish, principally in New York and other financial centers. I will get Trish to explain a bit more who Wafra are, who they are and her background and everything else. Trish, I'm going to shut up, hand the microphone over to you. How did you first get started in Treasury? And over to you.

Thank you. Great to be back. So I am very lucky in that I fell into Treasury. I don't have a very conventional background from an education perspective in Treasury. I thought I was going to do something a little bit more artistic, writing or maybe even being a doctor, which I suppose some don't consider artistic, but I do. But I fell into treasury my senior year of undergraduate degree of undergraduate school when I had some spare time and there was a job on the student body, the student senate rather. And some folks came to me and said you have to come and budget and listen to requests for money from other students who say that they need money for X, Y and Z and you have to be the bad cop and say no, you can't have this money because I have to pay workers. I have to do these other great events on campus. And they said and then there's this thing called Microsoft Excel and no one here knows what that is and we feel like you probably do. And they were right about all of it. So I said yeah, that sounds fun. And I really enjoyed the bits and pieces not only of the budgeting and the Type A and the organizing, but also the humanity behind it all. Where if this person's coming to me because they need X, Y and Z, I get to learn more about that, their need and how we can find a middle ground to meet that need, that Favors doesn't favor one party or the other. That works for everybody. And that was just an entry level college thing. Right. So from there that qualified me for a very entry level job at a place called K Ho Nianian which is a US based national home builder. I actually live in a home that I joke, but it's not a joke that I opened the bank account that turned into my house because I truly opened the bank account that started development that turned into my house 20 some odd years ago. But from there it was reaching, learning as much as I can learn from each role and then progressing further and being very blessed and very fortunate with the opportunities presented to me. I fell absolutely in love with treasury technology at Hess Corporation. I got there and they were at the tail end of their TMS contract which was with a product that has since been deprecated because how long ago it was. But it was an on prem product because that was all the rage. It was a product that was a rush implementation because it was just approaching Y2K and everyone was freaking out that what was going to happen if they didn't have a system in place. So they built this system and then eventually their contract was up and they said, okay, we need someone who can really get in the weeds of the technology. We need a kid, right? Because everyone thinks, oh, those kids in the computers and they understand it. Yeah, they came in and this was also right around Enron and Sarbanes Oxley really taking up a lot of everyone's time. So they said, okay, we need a kid to come in and really quickly build SharePoint sites and transparency and all the technology that makes it clear that we're being on the up and up basically. And so I was just very lucky because I happen to just have a knack for that sort of thing where I can look at the website or I can look at the data specs and I can say, oh, okay, yeah, give me an hour and we could turn it around and build something really cool. They were implementing their new tms which still exists and it's a great one. And I absolutely, that was it. I was hooked up from there. I eventually landed at Tishman's Spire and I was there for about a decade and I am so lucky for that.

And who are Tishman Speyer for the. Again, you and I both know them. So who are they?

Sure. Tishman Speyer is a real estate asset management and investment firm. They own and operate some of the largest beautiful corporate spaces in the world, including Rockefeller Center. They're everywhere. They are an outstanding place for me to have grown up. I consider myself as having grown up there. I can't even tell you how much I learned from them, how much I've taken from them, how much I carry with me from the 10 years.

Yeah. When you joined their treasury, what was the structure there and where did you join them in level wise and things?

I was there at a manager level and the structure, ironically it was. Everyone says that their treasury is a lean team because treasury typically is a lean team. I was the third addition to the treasury team at that point. My then boss was still. Was actually in the. Was hired in a way that I was hired into my offer role where folks were saying, no, we need a treasurer, we need a treasurer, we need to centralize this treasury function. And so she was brought in to do that. She eventually left. We got a new person because I was still there for five minutes. So certainly I wasn't going to go into a director role when I was just hired as a manager. But that was the other thing that made Tishman so unique because when you're thinking about it, in the mid early 2000, managers weren't afforded the opportunity to interview their prospective bosses. And that was crazy, right? For an investment firm, a very conservative, proper, incredibly well known firm, to say, okay, manager level person, go interview this director. Now that's commonplace as startup culture kind of starts to permeate more and more. But at the time that was insane. And that experience gave me exposure internally to a lot more of the C suite because it was okay. Treasury is still really new to us. We need your input, we need your opinion, we need your feedback on the right pick for who your boss is going to be and who do you want to learn from. And everyone really liked two people. It was down to these two final individuals. And one was very well versed and very well experienced in the real estate fund management treasury and one was very well versed in the technology. And they were all like, oh, we love this real estate. That makes so much sense. It's such a good fit. And I was like, you could teach anybody real estate, you can't teach anybody technology. I want to learn from that guy.

Yeah, you got to learn. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm very grateful that I'm sure I didn't sway anything when you have an input. But I was so grateful to have been heard and I'm grateful that they hired him. We're still in touch. He's wonderful. I send him a Christmas card every year. I text them every so often. But it was just such an amazing thing. And staying there for 10 years and going through the various iterations and the needs of the ways that we were able to use technology to meet the needs of the firm, ranging from implementing a new treasury workstation to implementing a new global ERP to then having to reimple, not reimplement entirety. But I say sometimes that I've implemented Kariba Treasury Workstation two and a half times. Once for Tishman Speyer and then another half a time for Tishman Speyer after we finished the new ERP because we saw opportunities for refresh it.

Got it.

Exactly, exactly. And that was a lot of fun because we saw interesting ways to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Because at that time Kariba was still a very new up and comer. And so we were looking at interesting ways to make it meet, a need that even the folks at Kariba hadn't considered before. And now here we are 15 years later. If you log into Kariba, you can see this checkbox. And I think to myself, I asked for that checkbox 12 years ago. I remember that. So that's. It's a lot of fun and it's a lot of really fascinating sort of nostalgia to look at and look back on things that might seem insignificant like that little checkbox. But it's really great. It's a point that I'm.

Yeah. As you.

As a treasure person.

Yeah, you had that input. But I'm going to come back into your tech stuff in a minute. I want to just ask more on the treasury side and we'll come into technology, but more two things. Number one, how you progress from there. But just before we do that, do you think that then technology at that stage and having that understanding you talked about, there was the other guy that had the tech in his back pocket, if you like. And that elevates people. Do you think certainly nowadays everyone's going on about AI and all this, but this is before. Do you think that's really helped and should people be thinking about that all the time?

I think that people need to adapt or die. Right? Isn't that the saying? And part of that adaptation is accepting technology, but also in the role that we play, we have to find our limits and really define those boundaries of what we are comfortable with and what we're not comfortable with. Because when you think about the role that technology can play in the payment space, you could think about the third party servicers, the stripes, the paypals, things like that, that because they are not banks, they. And they have such great tech stack in their architecture. They can do a lot and they can do a lot quickly. But they're also not beholden to the same regulatory requirements or strictness. If a large bank was going to roll out a similar or same product, they think about it, when did Zelle come out as opposed to when did Venmo come out? And one is a PayPal product and one is a bank consortium product. One came out first, but the other one settles your ach a lot faster. So when you think about it that way, worth the extra regulatory strictness so that you can get your money faster, for example, or you're have a more secure transaction. I would say yes, that's my opinion. But certainly other folks who are not necessarily treasury nerds might say, oh, but everybody uses Venmo, so why wouldn't I? It's a matter of saying, actually I was having this conversation with my boss a week or so ago where we were talking about a technology transformation that just a hypothetical, we could go this way or this way. And he said, but what do you think of just asking me my perspective on certain degrees of automation or AI? And I was like, look, I love all the technology 110%, but there comes a point where even though it's really cool, you have to not do it because it's dangerous. I think I likened it to Terminator 2 and Skynet. Like saying that you're going to end up way deep in over your head and you're going to have something that takes over because you've given too much autonomy to the thing. And when you're signing off on, hey, here's my signature. You can accept any file that this application comes from comes you any file you receive from this application as though I have personally signed it. That's way too onerous on me as the sign.

You need to be the gatekeeper, don't you? So you've got to, you know, step in there. So talk us through then the next couple of moves or the move from Tishman onwards and things like that, because then I want to deep dive a bit more in tech and stuff.

When I was around my eighth or ninth year at Tishman, and I gotta say, they really saw me through a lot. I had my children with them. They. I think they. The one of the times they promoted me was while I was still pregnant. Like they really were an incredible place to be. The by the end of my tenure there, I didn't want to go, but I knew that my boss, again, fabulous guy, wasn't going to go anywhere. And Treasury Edge was a very lean operation and your opportunity for growth within company is limited to openings. And I knew that I wasn't going to go moving to a different organization or a different function rather, because I love what I do. Some treasury folks pivot into FP and A or different types of even going more into the tech side of things on the IT side. But I knew I didn't want that. I loved where I was, but that also meant that I had to leave where I was if I wanted to keep growing. And I saw there were a bunch of Tishman folks who were going to WeWork. And by sheer coincidence, there was a gentleman who I worked with at Tishman out of their Brazil office who left to go to WeWork. And we were speaking, just catching up, and he said, hey, we're about to implement Kariba and you know how to do that. We need you. And I said, okay, cool. Get me an interview. Let's set it up. And within a few weeks time it was done and I went and I told my boss that I was leaving to go to WeWork. Are you. You sure? That was actually was still.

That was 2019. Wasn't that the beginning of 2019? What was. We were.

It was the hot place to be.

It was, yeah, hot place. Offices, remote offices and everything else.

Yeah, yeah, it was. But it also still had that sort of party mentality where you get there and here's your beer and here's your Margarita day and pizza at odd hours and sleepovers and all the things in the documentaries and things like that. And my boss was like, that's not you. And I was like, I know that's not me, but this is my next stop.

Yeah.

So I went there for about five years and it was the most wonderful, horrible, stressful experience of my life. Being part of a company that has swung the pendulum to the complete opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of its success, to fail. To success to fail. To success to fail. And thankfully for them, it's a great company and they're in a good spot now, I think. But I don't think I would change any of it. I can say that now because I.

Was one of the other side of it.

Because I'm on the other side of it. Exactly. I'm very fortunate for that. I think it definitely influenced the choice that I made in terms of when I moved on and where I moved to. Certainly something significantly more stable. I have two little ones at home and the idea of staying in startup life when I'm trying to put food on the table for a nine year old and an 11 year old is just irresponsible.

So, yeah, after four and a half years, time to move on. Who I. I get top of the show. I talked a little bit. Wafra, can you, in your own words, explain?

It's an investment advisory firm. It's a. Sorry, it's a registered investment advisor. So to that end, there's really not much that I can say in detail other than to say that we are a registered investment Advisor with roughly $30 billion at, um.

What does it say? What does it say on the website? So if I'm just like going, or you're at a cocktail party and someone say, what a Wafra? You said investment advisor. Okay, what does that mean?

You know, not investment advisory services. Actually, what I really love about it, Wafra, is actually Arabic for abundance, which I think is really beautiful because it's saying we're creating abundance for our clients. And just the notion of abundance and prosperity and just good things just is a good feeling.

So you've gone in there as treasurer. What was the setup when you got in there? Or what have you taken on? You've been there 18 months or so, so talk us through.

Prior to my arrival, there was a small team that was called treasury, but it was really more payment processing.

Okay.

The treasury function was fairly decentralized, and I was very fortunate. Again, right place, right time kind of thing, where the firm made the decision to centralize the treasury function and they put out feelers to find the person who they thought could do that. It's all always who, right? It's always that network where my boss contacted a friend of his who's been on your show. Actually. He said, look, I'm happy where I am. I don't want to go anywhere, but I'll help you find somebody. And he called a mutual contact of ours and said, I need someone who's really type A, really nerdy, really knows how to get this done. And. And the gentleman who we both know as well, said, oh, you need a nerd. Give me five minutes. And he called me up and he said, I have something for you. And that was it. I had an interview the next week and an offer very soon after. And here I am.

When we were live on stage, I had to say to the room, when they looked you up on LinkedIn, which I asked them not to do there, but can you give us your title on LinkedIn? Because as I said to the guys, then said she, her account hasn't Been hacked. And anyone that follows you or looks in the show notes, they'll go to this. And the first thing they arrive on is Trish, over to you. What your official title there?

I think I have self professed treasury nerd.

You do.

And I've got. And you know what it is when you're setting up your LinkedIn profile and I'm looking at the way other people have, they. A lot of my former co workers, for example, have like x WeWork x, Amazon x this, X that advertise who they are. And I was like, who am I really? At my core, I'm just. I'm a nerd. That's what I am. And a lot of folks are like, why would you say that about yourself? No, that's. You think I'm saying that negatively? That's a great. I love this look at what being a nerd has done for me. It's back to Hess Corporation and Sarbanes Oxley. We need a nerd to quickly build this site out. We need a nerd to quickly figure out what's wrong with our payment process. And it's funny, I always. I'll text people in Nerd Alert with a little emoji with the glasses and things like that. And that's a point of pride for me. I'm okay with that.

I'm part of that. And again, I'm going to use this. You were asked a while ago and people again can see this. We did this on stage. You tried to describe what you do and you said, your daughter said, what do you do?

So I got a call a while back from, I think, one of my daughter's teacher, and she said, do you work in financial crimes or financial investigations? And I said, no. Why? And she said, because I asked your daughter what you do for a living. And she said, mommy's the money police. And I just, I cracked up because I was trying to ironically explain to her because she'd asked me a week or so earlier what it is my job that I'm always doing all day, every day. And I said, I. I set the rules for the way people can move money within the company. Yeah. And she goes, and do they get in trouble sometimes? I'm doing my job. They don't get in trouble because I've made the rules so that they can't break them. And she was, so you're basically like the money police. And I was like, sure, I'm the money police. We'll go with that. And then I didn't think anything of it. And now that's I'm treasury nerd slash money police.

Yeah, I remember. And we didn't do it at the time. And I actually wrote it on my notes that time we spoke. And I. My. My daughter's now left home. She's three. But I remember when she was about eight or nine, and at the. Her school, they were saying, what does. What do your dad do? And I was just like, I do this. I told about. I do treasury to financial recruitment stuff. And I told her this. And she's an intelligent young lady. And she was still like, okay. And I did all this. And she went, yeah, sorry, what do you do again? And I was. And I just kept going, and I kept bringing it down. Eventually, the thing was, I help people get jobs. It was like, really? That's all I do.

It was the same thing for me, even as a kid. My father was an electrical systems engineer at and T. Bell Labs for decades, and I had no idea what that meant. And even now, I don't know what that means, even though I do. And a friend of mine grew up, honest to goodness, convinced that he invented call waiting because we didn't know how to explain what he did. And we were like, he does things with technology and phones. And then as a joke, my mom or her mom or something said, oh, Peter invented call waiting. And she legitimately believed it until maybe five years ago when she brought it up and said, what are you talking about? If my father invented call waiting, do you think I'd have a mortgage? Really?

I know we. We did. New York Cash Exchange. You're big on that, and things will come. In fact, should we dive into that or go the tech side? Which area should we explore a bit more for the listeners? Because they will be.

Honestly, I think they're intertwined because I love the cash exchange. We met at the Cash Exchange in person recently, and I'm on the board of the Treasury Management association of New York. And that actually happened because of my. My being a nerd. A few years ago, team was. They came out with an awards ceremony called the Treasury Innovation Northeast Symposium, which eventually grew into, I think, a global symposium, and then hybridized and morphed into something else as we've progressed. But actually, the gentleman who connected me with Wafra called me up and said, hey, how you built out this really interesting way of payment processing that helps streamline it for your business? And I said, yeah. And he said, can you write a little spiel about it? Because I want to nominate you for the Treasury Innovation Northeast Symposiums. Award for this year that Team Annie is creating. That's really cool. Sure. So my team and I write up a little blurb and lo and behold, we get second place. We get the silver award. And then soon thereafter, they said, hey, we have an opening on the board. Do you want to be nominated to be on the board? And I was like, first treasurer, truant through. They said, didn't you just give me an award? Isn't that a conflict of interest? Stop being crazy. It's a ballot. It'll be elected. Oh, okay. And I've been on there ever since, and it's been an amazing experience, meeting a lot of great people and really helping to grow the treasury community, which is a very strange niche community. Right. It's a small one. And it feels like everyone knows everyone, especially in this industry.

And I just want to explain for some of our listeners only, well, about 50% of them are outside of the US and some were t Money Treasury Management Association, New York, if anyone, which they should have done. Heard my recent podcast, whereas afp, the national association in the US And I was on stage and talked about it, and we were talking about how treasurers and treasury professionals at any level should get out of their own way, get out of their comfort zone and put their hand up to get involved in. Be on a panel. Some of them were saying, yeah, do a speech. And Nicole, I said, look, Nicole, this is great, but you're saying to these guys, suddenly get in front of a room. I said, they don't need to. And she went, no, you're right. I said, they just need to put their hand up and go along to a conference, volunteer, get involved in a panel session. So that's the way to do it. Just comment without. It's great, nice, friendly. Everyone wants to help each other and everything else. And then you're involved at the T. Manny and they do the New York Cash Exchange, which is your annual conference as well. The power that I said is massive. What have you seen it do? What have you seen for some of those people? Because I know that you'd also spoken about on our previous session. That'll be. We kept some of that in. But about the power of that, the association for some of your peers and colleagues and things like that, it was one of those.

It is an extremely powerful thing. We even at the most recent event as well, I know I had touched on a gentleman that I had introduced to the other team, any board members, and now he's going to start to volunteer. But also there were folks that this was their first conference and they were there because I'd encouraged them to go. And they came back from it saying, why are we going to conferences every year? Why are we going to conferences all the time? That was incredible. Problems that I've been trying to solve forever. There are already solutions for this and I didn't even know that there was a forum for me to go learn about them. So it's as the more senior, I feel like I'm aging myself as the more advanced treasury professional. Watching the younger crowd come in and have those light bulb aha moments is really refreshing and really it just gives you this good feeling for the direction of the industry and where things are heading. And then as the person who's literally helping to run that specific show, it's an incredible responsibility, but it's an incredible privilege. Right. Because it's shaping the industry by shaping the forum that people are using to continue their growth.

Also explored on our session about introvert, extrovert and saying about different people. And I was saying that it doesn't matter if you. Even if you're introverted and you're not by doing things like this, it gives you the power of your own network. Jobs come and head. We had it on our previous session in the when I did it in the March time where Dana and Chris had said both of their all their jobs were coming to the through the network. Obviously I wasn't happy about this. I said, look, I'm a recruiter, got kids that need shoes. But I said the fact is, whilst I admonished them, I wasn't very happy. But I did say that was it. And they work on their network. But this is a great easy way for you to get involved and do things like that.

Yeah. And especially right now, Covid in particular was pretty hard for any professional network to figure out how to navigate through and try to be sensitive to the fact that we didn't want the show to not go on. But also how could the show go on? The world was closed. But I think it was the 2020 virtual team, Annie that was such a huge success. We had folks from Singapore joining in real time because the word got that far. And that was incredible. We had 3,4000 people collectively. And granted, it's great to be back in person and everyone has rave reviews last year, rave reviews the year before. You can only fit so many people in one space. So we're trying to figure out, literally as we speak, how are we shaping next year's conference, what makes the most sense. And it's also an election year for T. Manny, so there's a lift and shift of who's going to be doing what for whom and when. And it's an interesting time. The most important election in the US right now, actually.

Forget about the globe. So moving on from that and all things geopolitical, obviously tech, this is obviously a big strand for yourself and I love the practical aspect of it, if you like, sometimes. And again, when I was at the conference recently, there were some people that. It's funny, one of my clients, he said he went to everything with AI in it. He said, AI machine learning. He went to every session and then we caught up on the last day and I said, how's it been? He said, yeah, it's been about thirds. Said, oh, was. He said, a third. Great. A third not very, not good at all. Stuff he already knew and stuff. And a third in between that you would get snippets from and things like that. And that's not. And I said the bottom third. He said, yeah, it wasn't a waste of time, but what it was, some of the stuff was repeated or for some of the audience, it was too low level and some too high level and stuff. And you're gonna get that it wasn't.

It's one of the feedback that we got at afp. I'm sorry, at Cash Exchange, we were trying to reach out to folks and say, what do you want next year? And some folks said, we love this intro session, but we want more and we want more detail and not just more detail on the stage, but more detail conversationally. We want a roundtable and not just a presentation. So thinking about what you were saying about introvert, extrovert, get that info out there, be it AI related or whatever, and just sit in a circle and just talk it through.

That's cool. So with yourself, what do you see? Where do you see it going? Where do you see you've implemented it? Some aspects of it, as you said, with controls and things. What a difference are you seeing for yourself and for the business, as it were?

I think that we're still at a very interesting sort of pivotal shift for the industry, specifically as it pertains to whose responsibility is it to manage that level of security? Right. Because the conventional wisdom would say you have an IT team for that, you have a cto, a CISO for that. And absolutely, yes, I am not a data protection expert by any stretch of the imagination. I see it as I care about the contents of the file and getting it there safely and I'll do whatever you tell me to do to get it there safely. But I've also had experiences in previous roles where treasury and tech were not friends because treasury was saying, okay, tech, you only care about that the file got there. And again, I care about what's in the file because if what's in the file is wrong, my payment's going to be wrong. Yeah. So it's really a matter of defining that partnership and understanding what is treasury anymore. Is it what it once was in terms of letters of credit and things that in my mind take more of an FPA spin or a capital markets type spin? Or is it the hands on operational stuff that really can't be explained other than I thought that was outsourceable. Oh, but have you tried outsourcing it? How'd that work for you?

Sorry for the quick interruption. Just a quick word from our sponsors and a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. So we run these for about half an hour, 40 minutes. We're approaching the end of the show. For other treasurers out there, what are the we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. What are the takeaways you would give them? You've had some great reflections all the way through there. What advice if someone is listening today or potentially watching, what what are you saying is that they should be thinking about as treasury professionals.

As treasury professionals or just professionals in general? I've got three things off the top of my head from folks that I was privileged to have worked with and learned from and they are the first one is cliche and very well known and it does come from my boss at Tishman who used to tell me repeatedly probably wanted to shake me really hard while he was saying it. Just keep it simple, stupid. Just keep it simple. Because my loving what I do so much, it doesn't make sense to me that other people don't want all the details under the sun and all I'm doing when I give you all these details is annoying you because you don't Care. You just want the answer. You just want the simple Englishized version, not the nerd speak. So that was my first piece. My recently came made the acquaintance, the very great acquaintance in friendship, honestly of someone who always says respond, don't react because when you are in the thick of it. And I think we've all had those career defining moments where it's really hard not to get emotional. You can't get emotional because it's going to impact everything that comes after and it's going to impact everything, every way everyone sees you. And it's a hard thing to do, or a hard thing not to do, especially in treasury in particular, because when you're in this specific function, you are what you do. If you do it halfway, something's gonna be broken, something's gonna go wrong, something is just not going to work and that falls on you for not giving it your all. So you need to scale back and respond without reacting. And the third I is another Tishman takeaway, actually the Cao of Tishman, wonderful guy, used to say if your email is longer than three sentences, hit delete and pick up the phone. And he's right. And I carry that with me everywhere as well. I don't always remember to use it, but I carry it.

What does that mean to you? What do you. Can you explain that? I understand, I get it. I love it.

I think it's, it's another adaptation of Keep It Simple Stupid. You need to make sure that if you have so much to say, you need to say it to the person. You don't know how it's going to be interpreted. You don't know what's going to happen, how it's going to be read, when it's going to be read. But there is so much more that can be gained for both sides of a conversation. If it's a conversation and I'm just.

I'm going to repeat those a little bit. So keep them. Keep it simple stupid. That's one of the things we've always heard and actually the second one about choose your response. I am going to chip in here because I love it. I've had it in the past of my team and some others. First ever, starting in Treasury. Recruitment is highly pressured and everything else and luckily this is audiobooks, tape audiobooks. I know kids, there were tapes. Listen to them and you walk. And I actually did. But there was this really good book that went alongside it and this guy said, and there's nothing. No, there's no such thing as stress. And I'm like, no, hang on, come on. He went, no, there was. He said, do seals get stressed? As in army seals? He went, as in Marine seals and as in the Army. And these guys, how do they react? No, it's your. You choose your reaction, you choose how you. You choose your response. Exactly right. And then relationship. And that's exactly as you've said. And that's why we get on well and we've had this. I've said to. And as you just put it there without overspeaking your words, it's. If you can ever move a relationship forward in an email. Yeah. But I'm going to give you the final words, takeaways, any final summation for those treasury professionals out there, except for join your local association, which I definitely think they should do if they've got one. If they haven't, contact you and me, we'll tell them where to, you know, connect with people, whichever country you're in, as well. Any other final takeaways? Just to seal it off again, T.

Manny, we have a lot of virtual content as well, so if you want to join T man, you reach out@t Manny.org we also recently started.

Put that in the show notes. We'll put that in the show notes.

Thank you. Yeah, I think treasury is one of those things that, especially now, is a jack of all trades. You've got to know something about everything. So similarly to how my conventional education was not in Treasury, I. I think I only got an MBA fairly recently because I had imposter syndrome and I wanted to show, like, yeah, I have an undergraduate degree in the arts, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about in finance. And even still, that was just to check a box because I'd already had, what, 18, 19 years of experience at that point. But be as well rounded as you can possibly be because treasury, as you've said, is the gatekeeper. And if you're the gatekeeper and you're the last stop before something leaves your firm and your firm's bank account, you need to be in a position to know your audience and speak their language and hear what they're saying. I think of the time that Tishman had finished implementing their first TMS and I was going on vacation for the first time since it was implemented. And I wrote a user guide for the support team at the TMS office and I said to them, this is the language that our end users use and this is what they actually mean in the language that you speak. As the practitioner as the support, as the customer support service. When they call you up saying this isn't working, what they mean is this report, this process, such and such, there's treasury, in my mind is a bunch of translators and if you need to be open and flexible and receptive to the nuanced languages of your cross functional.

Partners, great final words. I'm leaving it there. You're amazing, Trish, and looking forward to seeing you in 2025.

Thank you. Likewise.

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