Navigating Different Industries and Challenges in Treasury with Stephan Albers

Foreign to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show I'm joined by Stefan Albers, the head of treasury and financing at about usc. About you is one of the fastest growing e commerce companies in Europe. As a fashion and technology corporation. Their ambition is to digitalize the classic shopping stroll by creating an inspiring and personalized shopping experience on your smartphone. Well, you know Stefan will explain this a little bit more later but you have a range on the through about you of over three and a half thousand brands. One of the largest fashion e tailers in Germany. But what we're going to do is kick off we go back to Stefan's start within banking and then having discovered Treasury I'm going to hand over the microphone to Stefan. Over to you sir, talk us through how did you first ever get started in finance and then later on I know you come to Treasury. Over to you.

I started my career, I think that's very normal as a banker at UniCredit I worked for UniCredit for yeah around 10 years as a relationship manager I make the relations between the bank and corporates for, for the multi multinational corporates namely in Hamburg. Yeah, that was a very interesting time where I learned the whole process in order what is credit, how to analyze us the balance sheets of the corporates and to make a deep dive the different corporates in order to learn how they are just earning the money and what is their business model and how can I give them the best advice in order to get the best financing in town. This in a nutshell but this was just for around 10 years and then there were a point in time where I just decide for myself to, to make the switch to go to the, to the dark side of life. No, just kidding. What, what what? I mean when you are just working at a bank you had just a lot of regulations so you cannot act as an entrepreneur. We have maybe some, some rules you just have to take into consideration but when you just went to the corporate side I think you can more act. That was my first experience as an entrepreneur where you can just, can, can show more, more initiative in order to, to change things and to discuss also fancy ideas which is maybe not so easy when you're working in a, in a bank because as I mentioned there are regulations There are rules and there are hierarchies. So sometimes your. Your hands are bounded so that you cannot act like an entrepreneur.

Stephan, you and I were talking about before the responsibility, if you like of a bank. What. What do you think when you were there and you were talking to your corporate clients. What's the key thing you think they should be doing for their clients? You know, even since those early days.

For you mainly it's. It's just the. The advisory right to. To give them the best advice how they can just finance their. The growth or maybe how you can just get through a delivery restructuring. For me I think that was just. The times are just changing. So overall I think that this was just in the. In the past. And then there come that then there was a switch within the bank. Cause they just want to earn more and more with different products. Right. Insurance products, other I think asset products. Where I think this is not the right. The right way to sell something which not really fits to your client. Right. So, and this is just for me something where I just said okay, what is the real job of a banker? Yes. To give them an advice or just to sell a product in order to earn money or the highest provision. Right. And this for me comes to me to make to make a decision to say okay, maybe I will just go the right way and not the left way. And this is the very first beginning for me maybe to. To start my career in a corporate treasury. So that otherwise maybe I think otherwise, maybe I think I will then maybe when I just take this. This step, I think I will just lead all my life in a bank. But this is luckily not the case.

Well, exactly. Great, great. You then led it on. You said you'd had that great foundation in banking. What came next.

Next in order to make a switch to a Treasury. And as I just decided to leave the bank a Treasury was not well known in Germany. When you just go to a corporate. My time they were controlling and an accounting department. But the treasury nobody knows what is Treasury. Is there someone who is just sitting on a big bunch of money and just try to protect the money against others. So that was not. Not well known. I started me in a so called transformation phase, right. I just ran consulting company which was just specialized in order to give advisory for securities. The idea was to provide a service with just independent from a bank in order to see how the banks or how a corporate can optimize the working capital throughout using an ABS transaction. So that was for me very interesting. Coming from a bank now working for Consulting or advisory company to learn a little bit more. What does it mean acting as a corporate in a world where you have maybe just on the other side in quotation marks, the bad banks will just not provide you with money. And when you, when you get the money, then maybe you have just to give them federals or maybe cash in order to get a credit. So that was maybe just for me a completely different switch and a complete different view how corporate has toured in.

This world and you'd had that really good understanding of a corporate balance sheet from banking and then you sort of hand holding a bit more with them. You know, in this consulting phase, I was just making some notes there saying you're obviously very consultative in your ethos and maybe that's come through in your treasury, which we'll talk about in a moment. But you know, a good period view would you say suggest to people that they do do consulting? Do you think it's a, a positive thing for treasury folks? You know, say if someone's early in their stages of career. Listening to the podcast today, you, you think consulting is a good thing or you know, what do you.

I think good thing is when you are just working as a consultant, you are learning to ask different questions. So I think maybe when you are through, through your questions you give the other party the chance to think about what, what you just want to know in order to learn about the whole business model. And I think this is just key for every treasurer. I think money is still the same. You cannot, you cannot paint the money. So money is money, right. But you have to understood where the money comes from, the money goes. So and I think this is just key to ask the right questions to understood processes and you can act more as an advisor in order to tell, to tell your client. Okay, I think this, this would be the best to use for example in convert or to make a convertible or maybe to optimize the working capital or whatever. Right. So throughout this, this process, learning to ask the right questions, get an additional deep knowledge how the corporate is just working and then can just take a look, okay, how is the treasury organized? How the treasury working? Is this maybe just a treasury state of the art or is there just a vision within the Treasury? I think a treasurer, you can, you can just establish a Treasury and then maybe then you can just say, okay, this is the job is done. But I think the job is that you are just asked every day is the treasury you have just in place, is it just the best or can you just make it better and I think we are just living in a world where everything is just changing. Like so there are just a lot of new approaches. There are just artificial intelligence. There are so many new products there. The world is moving, right. Maybe you have a crisis or maybe you're just not a crisis. And this is just maybe I think there you can see if you have just good treasury or not, how the treasury reacts to crisis, how a Treasury is just maybe what is, what is the vision or the strategy of the Treasury. And I think this, this should be in line with the overall strategy of the corporate.

And you'd had so this express banking consulting and then you made a move into corporate. Talk us through that and what, you know, what instigated that and how come you actually now it's a time to be in a real logistics, you know, real, you know, at the coalface. What was it like?

Yeah, so I think maybe we just get, get a mandate. And so this mandate was coming from Hapag Lloyd through this connection. I went through pure container line working in logistics. That was just the time as a lot of discussion. So you know, Habag Lloyd belongs to the Tui and Habergloit should be sold to Singapore. But then Mr. Koene from Kuen Nagel does act as an investor so that Hapag Lloyd could stay in Hamburg. And, and that was just for me, the first time where I can could be part in order to build up a treasury together with my colleagues. They were nothing. So in former times, when Habakk Lloyd needs money, they just call to Tui and ask Tui to transfer some money. That's easy. But when you just have to. Yeah, should be standalone. Then maybe you just have to make up your mind how you can build up, build up your treasury of your own.

And how did you do that? What's your checklist? You know, I often. And you've heard this on the podcast before, right? There you go. Desk, phone, office, off you go. You're running Treasury. What was on your checklist?

I think first of all to get the big picture how our pure container line is just working. What is, what is the money need for? Right. So assume as you could imagine. So as a container line you need a lot of container ships. And when you just have as a company the best and the new newest ships on your, your own balance sheet, I will just say the king because you can just have, have the fastest and best container ships in town and then you can make the money. Right. So first of all, there was not, not really a checklist just to make a big picture what is, what is just the need and then maybe just step by step to, to build up a liquidity planning to see what is, what is the money you need, how much you need. Are there any financing in cum wallet? And at that time we adjust this shipping Germany, especially in Hamburg, as you could imagine the banks were not so happy because ship financing wasn't the flavor of the month. So you had just a lot of fracturing discussions with the bank and overall it was just, just a hard time. We just learn a lot of restructuring how to negotiate with the banks. And I think that was just for me an advantage because I know how the other side may or could, could react in this special case. Yeah, that was just a hard, a tough, a tough time but for me may time where I could maybe get a lot of experience.

And then you were there for three and a half years what, what prompted a move or then now I'm not going to say. You can, you can say the name of your next company because your German accent is much better than mine. How do you make the move? What happened?

So I think some, some audience will be laughing now. I went to the ber to. To the famous Berlin airport at that time one of one of the biggest infrastructure projects in Germany. From the construction period, I think the longest time ever an airport needs to be getting finished. So that takes a very long time. And for me I think the challenge was because I just want to develop myself as a leader and so therefore I had a chance to build up treasury at the airport. I think that was just for me a challenge because on the one side a very big infrastructure project. On the other side maybe everybody was talking about the airport and made their own jokes on the airport. And so therefore that, that was a really. That was a challenge. Yeah, so that was my, my motivation to make the switch from the logistics to. To the airport.

And was it the same treasury wise? Was it very similar drivers and things like that? Is it quite a seamless thing? Oh yeah, we can do that. You know, I've done, you know, logistics now infrastructure very similar or quite. Were there big differences?

I think what I mentioned before, you cannot pay money is still the same. But at the airport I think big challenge is every time when you just connect political with economic reasons then maybe you have a problem because they are just different expectations and different motivations. And at the Berlin airport our stakeholders were just purely politicians. There were the Bund, there were the state of Berlin and the state of, and the state of Brandenburg and maybe they were a mixture of political expectations and economic expectations and everybody was just taking a look because throughout this very long period they were just spent a lot of money and this was just the money from everybody who is just paying tax. Right. So therefore everybody takes a look. And that was just sometimes very challenging to discuss economic topics with litigants because sometimes they have not the understanding about economic stuff and how are just things working, how you just have to speak with the banks and so on and so forth. So that was maybe sometimes just pain, but I think that's, that's also something. Just take a look now. I think it was a hard, also a tough time but for me also the possibility to learn something about political games. So I will just compare it like a house of cards, but I think they were just a little bit different. Yeah, but it was just maybe nearly the same. I just. I had the chance to work together with Mr. Meaden. I would just say one of our famous manager leader in Germany because he has what I just will call charisma when I just compare him with all the other leaders of the DAX companies. I think he was someone who can just very fix opinion and he just goes through and make his opinion very, very clear and was not so very opportunistic like any other NHS in Germany. So that was just for me, someone where I can just learn a lot of management. Yeah.

And you'd have those two industries on your CV if you like, resume and things and then a move to consum goods. What a shift for you, would you say? Or again talk us through that because that's been more a theme more recently. Did you choose that you think you know what I've done infrastructure, I've done logistics, you know, or was it just the role?

I think it was just a role. At the end of the day for me the airport was very interesting but for me when you just want to work as a treasurer, for me it is very important and focus things which are really important for. For a company or for a corporate right to take care of how you can just finance the company, you have enough money and so on and so forth, or cash on accounts and not discuss political stuff. So I think this is maybe you can do, but I think this is not the main task of a treasurer.

And can you explain the company you joined? I've touched on it there. Nordzucker, can you explain?

Nordzucker is just a pure, as you mentioned, just consumer good industry and they produce sugar in all kind of different rarities. For me that was just A great chance to learn something about risk management ethics, hedging and commodity hedging. As I started at Nodsoka, everything or every process was very manually so they could just put up the phone and just discuss with the banks about the different rates, forward rates or maybe sugar futures. That was a time everything was just doing over the phone and that was something a little bit old fashioned. But I think that was just a good chance to, to learn the business and maybe from asic. During my time at not soccer, we had the chance just to make everything a little bit better. Just to make everything automatically. It uses different tools for us as a trader, as a treasurer to make our life a little bit better.

And you'd move through that. So you modernize there and then more recently you've really come up to date, you've joined well, you were then Zalando and then your current company. Talk us through the next couple of moves.

Yeah, so Alando, that was just a great choice because when you work for a very long time for a very old and efficient company, I think maybe you just only look on one style of corporate. For me it was also very interesting to work for a fast growing company to join Solando was for me a complete different culture as a treasurer because there were just more all the focus on entrepreneur and there were maybe just a very agile company where you just have very low hierarchies. We worked in teams and where you can just lot of do what you want to do. That means maybe when you have just get a cool idea or a fancy idea, you can just go to your CFO and just tell them hey, hey guy, I've just good idea. What do you think? So that was just a completely different culture. When I compare this with not soccer, don't get me wrong, not soccer is just a very good corporate, but it's very old. It's like there are just a lot of traditions. But I think it's also good to see how big organizations are still working in nowadays where you have maybe just where everything is just very fast, it's fast growing and where you just have to react rapidly. Right. So maybe when there's just coming the new imports coming, coming from the market, then you have to react. So and as a CEO, maybe you have the time and you can just say okay, I would just take, take the time and we'll just think about, I will discuss, I will just have this meeting or that meeting. You just say okay, good. Come on guys, let's, let's, let's make a brainstorming let's see how we. How we want to react. If there's something different, if they're just maybe just another idea. Can we just develop it? So it's. It's just a completely different working. And as a treasurer you can just have. There are just more. Yeah, you get more. More challenges which you have to solve. I think maybe in a traditional company we get just the task as a treasurer. Okay. Find the best RCF you can find in the market for a fast growing company. You just have to take a look. Okay. What is really the best if they're just different other solutions.

And can you explain again, I talked to the top of the show for what about you. Se is Zalando again. We know. Well, we've recruited for the group and everything else Internet commerce brand very obviously across Europe and things like that. But some of our American listeners, you know, on the west coast gun who. What do they do? You know, they might not know you so not know that group. And then. And we'll bring it more up to date. What do they do?

So you mean the difference between Solando and about you?

Oh no. Who is Zalando?

So I think the story is very cool. So Solando starts in 2008 with selling flip flops over the Internet. So and that were just in the time 2008 we had this financing crisis and that was just an idea. Yeah. From three guys in Berlin to make something new. So to create a platform where you can just sell. Where you can buy clothes. Right. So that was just that you get just a new experience for buying shoes, clothes, T shirts, fashion overall. So that was just the idea. And the idea was maybe not only to sell clothes over the platform, but also to act as a service provider for software, for marketing and so on and so forth. So maybe not acting as a pure retailer and not only a pure tech company. It's just in between.

Yeah. Sorry. Given your depth of experience, you'd gone in there. What was it like for you? Fast growth and lots of things happening. How did you manage that as well?

I think it is easy when you are just working for a fast growing company. I think there are still money or there's just cash in accounts. Right. So I think the challenge is when it comes to a crisis. So. And I mentioned Solando was established in 2008 and they were just growing, growing, growing, growing. And then we got the first crisis in Corona and then maybe I think then the job was to see how we can safeguard the liquidity. And nobody knows is this crisis something is it good or is it bad for us? Right. I think we realized in the summer 2020 that this crisis may be something which could boost our business. So we had a boost. So everybody was just buying sitting at home and buying clothes via Internet. Right. So and I think that was just the real challenge to see how you can just keep the money together and how you can what are the sources when you just want to. Because we didn't know okay what what will this crisis will do with us. It was our business model came to the conclusion to start up with. To launch a convertible bond in order to. To get the money as cash on account to get something maybe when we just want to acquire something that we have just enough money for for maneuver for M and a transaction like this. So that was just the main challenge in such a crisis. And I think maybe for fast growing companies, I think maybe when you are just know that you and you earned money the last years and then a crisis come. I think this is just something where you can see if you have just a good business model and a good.

Treasury or not and then bring us up to date, you know. So your most recent role in this as you said, so Zalando E commerce, online clothes, retail and everything else about you similar or different or talk us.

Through this is completely different. Maybe and it might be the case here Tuchel that you think okay, it is the same, but it is not the same because we have just a complete different approach because we are just working with influencer marketing. And the idea is to have more to get a closer contact to the market about these influenza. Right. Because they are just an eye to our clients. They are just feeling news. They are just feeling what will be the next. What will be hip for the next month is maybe you are just wearing in the summer, I think blue jeans or maybe only a pink. So I think this is something a complete different approach and I think to create more an experience for fashion. So to give an example for me, there are just three different commerce steps. So the first step in E commerce was when you just want to buy jeans. In the past you just opened Google to just want to looking for jeans for Levi's. You find a job where you can find a Levi's and then you buy your Levi's. The second step was just you were just looking for jeans and then you get three offers. Maybe for Levi's for Wrangler and what else maybe for Polo, right? And then you have to choice, okay, which of these three genes you will just choose. And the third Approach this is maybe what we are just leaving this, that you get a new experience, you don't know what you need, but you know that you need something fancy. You just want to, you just want to go to a party and you need something maybe very, very special. Then you come to us, you take a look at our homepage, you take a look to our app and you get an inspiration, right? So the different influencer we get, so there are just football players, for example, we get models as influencer, you just as a consumer, you know, what is just hip and what is just the flavor of the market month, right? So this is, this is just the difference.

What was that like for you coming into, you know, a function like Treasury? You know, what was the treasury like that you joined relatively recently, six or seven months ago? You know, what's it been like? You know, you walk in, right, show me your treasury system, show me what you know, the department is like, you know, how did you put your mark on it? If you like, if you like.

For me overall, it's key to take a look what is, what is still there, right. For me it's just, I make a deep dive. I just want to know about my, my colleagues just want to know about the different systems which what is, what is, what is still there. And then maybe I make up my mind what, what should be changed or if it's something which you could, could just as it is. So. And when you are just fast, fast growing, you have a different focus on different things. As I just joined about you, there was a Treasury for sure, but I would just say there were just some, some optimizations, so room for optimizations. And for me, I take, I take time to, to learn more and more about my colleagues, more about the systems. And then I just tried to make, for me to, to establish the vision to be, to create a Treasury as a state of the art, right. What I mean is in former times maybe you have just this classical setup. You have just the front, middle or back office, right. And I think this is maybe a narrow times when you are just working for a tech company. So everything is just maybe aut, right. And so therefore I think you need this approach in front, middle, back office. This is, this is not necessary anymore. So for me it is key to see what are the operational processes, what can be automatic. And then at the second step to see, to take a look. Okay, Is there maybe just more room for projects for treasury advisory, acting as an advisory for our different stakeholders with.

Yourself, you, you know, we're okay. It's early days and things. But we were just talking before the show that there are some areas that you really like to sort of grab hold of and take deep dive. Working capital management. You were just talking about that, that we're going to both be at the Euro Finance conference later this year, Barcelona. That you're, you're very. Why are you so passionate about that? You know, sure, it's you know, working capital. Yeah. Just you know, managing it as part of your day job.

Surely when you are just within the fast growing company and when you just take a look at our figures, we are just still on track, but we are just not reached our break even. You just want to grow and I think grow is not falling from heaven. You just have to invest. As you might know, the time for the fashion industry, for retailers, for tech companies. I think maybe we were just bashed by the markets caused to this second crisis after Corona, everybody's just speaking about recession and so on and so forth. And when you just discuss investments or maybe in general financing with banks, they are just. The banks are just thinking twice how and how they can provide money. And so therefore I think it is key for foreign corporate to take a look if there are any alternatives. Right. Alternatives could be for example, how you can finance your working capital. And for us it's very important. We need the right stuff on our stocks which we can provide over our platform. And maybe you just have the right. Just have to take a look that you have just the right stuff which you can offer your clients. So therefore the question is what is about financing? You can just go, go to a bank, ask them for a credit or for a supply chain finance program. And sometimes I think that the banks have not the right product for us. So it is markets standard that our clients, our supplier have to or has to pay for the supply chain. Right. And I don't know if this is maybe just the right approach because when you are just speaking with bigger brands, I think they are not interesting in order to pay for these charges. The idea is how you can change it. The idea is maybe that we as a corporate just pay all the cost. So maybe that you can just give them maybe the money after 10 days. Therefore you get a cash discount and you can just use the cash discount in order to compensate your costs. Right. And so therefore the idea is to take also look for different other products which you can use. So and we are just talking maybe with different new approaches which are on the market. Maybe for example, we are just speaking with companies like trexpay or with CFLox which are just offers a lot of fancy products which might be very good for us and which could be maybe just completely change the whole products which you maybe which you can just find on the market for supply chain and.

You yourself, it's an interesting one. So I did a podcast just recently with Ara Hammam GM man. Had to get that right from Biomarin Pharmaceuticals or Baramount actually Genetics over in the US having a really great chat with him and he like you gets involved in lots of different events and as a speaker and puts his hand up and you're speaking later this year. Why do you think that's important? And what I mean by that is again I was at Chicago recently, there's some people, oh Mike, I just can't do it. I'm not getting up there. I've got enough on my plate and things and not really peer to peer sharing. These guys are saying no, I'm staying in my office, not going to network and things. But you believe in the power of that. I know that we talked about this before and you hear today on the podcast. Why do you think that's so powerful? Why do you think that's important?

If you know I can, I can learn what I can learn. I think maybe for me as a treasurer I don't know everything. Therefore for me it is, it is a good day when I learn a little bit more. So and I think you can learn also maybe when you're just speaking with other people, how maybe what is. What is their view on things, how they are just solve different problems. Maybe you've just got the same problem but there are just different approaches. So therefore for me it's just key that you're just speaking with each other to see, okay, maybe what is, what is a different view maybe from. From someone in the UK or maybe from the, from the US Maybe are there still the same problems or maybe are there any. Maybe what is. What is what is the risk appetite of US Banks, for example? Example, is it just the same in Europe or maybe are there different products or whatever? So I think this is for me, yeah.

Key. Yeah. Because I know that you do things with the EACT and things when you're talking to your peers there. What are you getting from them? Is it. Are you sitting with them and just trying to see how they approach treasury or is it. Are you sort of sense checking the way you approach Treasury? What do you, what do you find then?

It's both. I think it's listening and speaking right to looking or to discuss what is best practice. So I think maybe there are just, there could be different alternatives in order to achieve your goals. And the thing is, what is just the best when you have just alternatives? I think it's also a question about the costs. Right. And I think what I like is to discuss, okay, what should be the best one way. Right. Or the optimum. Maybe there's an optimum. Both ways are just good.

Let's, let's discuss it before we wrap up today. I mean, we're not going to quite, we're not quite there yet. Any other areas that you are passionate about that you think that other listeners today should be thinking about?

What is for me also key when we are just talking about treasuries are the other people your colleagues? I think, and I'm just. What I've learned from my past is that you just. The question is what, what role does treasury play play today? And I think what I mentioned is you need a. Yeah. And you have to motivate your team. And we have just one slogan at about you. This is maybe just stay, stay hungry and act as an entrepreneur. Because this is just a great chance to give your teammates a chance to act as an entrepreneur and give them the feeling that they are just very, very valuable. I also got the experience. Maybe there were just coming new leaders just say this is not okay and this is bad and you have to just make, make this new and this is not good. And I think overall this is not the right approach. I think maybe the human capital is just the most valuable thing which you have also in Treasury. And for us, I think it's also key to focus on international teammates. So because coming from different cultures, it's just, it is very, very good because you just get different views on things. And maybe for me, and maybe this is, I don't know if this is politically correct, but I think different cultures have different. Yeah. Have, have different ways to solve a problem. This is maybe coming. Coming from their religious background, maybe also from the culture background. But I think this is just a very, very, very level. And as about you, we are, we are very, very international. I think this is, this is just the key. And my advice is don't, don't control your, your teammates. Give them just a feeling that you are just trust them and that they are just, just part. A part of a very big process.

Yeah. Well, amazing show. Thank you, sir. So we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show. Notes, takeaways. You know, we do this each and every week. We've done it 270 plus times. It's amazing. And the advice we've got there, we're going to summarize at some stage, what are the takeaways for if there's someone listening today? Early stage, career, mid stage, later stage, what are the things, recommendations you might give? You know, it's a bit like a wrap up at what are the things? What are the takeaways?

Ask the right questions.

Oh, I love it.

Try to get a really deep understanding about the business model, about the company you are working for, what are the sources, how they are just earn the money, how the money going around, what is, what is the output? I think take a look for a mentor for example, looking for someone who is just working for a longer time him in treasury. Ask him to give him maybe more insights. Yeah. Stay, stay hungry.

Love it. So show me the money, get a decent mentor and stay hungry. Lovely. They can go all go on your wall. Stefan, amazing to chat. Thank you for your time and look forward to seeing you soon.

Thank you so much. Mike was a pleasure.

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