Navigating Global Treasury at Moody’s in a Volatile Risk Environment

These are some of the insights you're going to get from Deepali Chawla, Managing Director, Chief Treasury Officer at Moody's. Have a listen.

I would just say two things, like a little bit of patience and, and do what you do, and, and forward-looking mindset. I think those two key things are very important. And again, I, I say that because, you know, many times in the early stages of a career, we get very impatient. Like, you know, we know we want to We wanna move up quickly. We wanna, you know, financially do better every time we do that. And you wanna make those job changes very quickly. Just don't think about your growth as vertical, as one directional like that. It can be sideways, it can be, you know, multidimensional. You need to make sure that you get as much as possible, get that all-rounded experience that you can get.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Deepali Chawla, the Chief Treasury Officer at Moody's Corporation. In a world shaped by increasingly interconnected risks, Moody's helps customers develop a holistic view of these risks to advance their business and act decisively. They provide data, intelligence, and analytical tools to help business and financial leaders make competent decisions. And they have highly skilled analysts, rich data, and robust tools that have a way of view of the future informed by more than 115 years of experience. I will get to explain a little bit more about Moody's later on in the show. But I've known Deepali for many years. She's very kindly agreed to be one of my upcoming guests in New York. Thank goodness, because we had a rehearsal. We did it a couple of years ago and she was a great guest in London. So look forward to reconnecting. Deepali, enough from me. Over to you. How did it all start? Over to you.

Thanks, Mike. And always great to be connected with you and participate in your forums. And I can, I can say that for sure that those are one of the highly engaged and networked and You know, great discussions always with a lot of the network that we connect with there. So thank you. How did it all start? So I think coming from India to Belgium, right after I got married, it was tough as is finding a job given the language and other constraints there. So yes, but having done a finance MBA, you know, that felt like my natural space, safe space. And I was lucky to be able to land my first job with Hewlett Packard at that point in accounts receivable processing, which I did for about 3 years, including a huge project, which was to transition all of that receivables function to a shared services center in Bangalore. And then as we decided to, as a family, we decided to move to UK, my preference was you know, to do with an internal transfer as much as I can, because so I'm not starting from scratch again, ground zero, given that, you know, I knew the company, I had made a decent network, I knew the culture. And as luck would have it, you know, I was looking for an opening in the UK and a treasury job came up. I had never heard of that function or I did not know much of it. So, you know, that isn't a stream that you actively work your way through in school. So just knew it was a function within finance and that was enough to give me comfort. And with that, I just decided to go for it. And of course, have never looked back since.

Excellent. And so that transition, what was that like in the early years? Because you got to know HP and things, but early learning curves and things, that must, you know, that's a heck of an intro, if you like.

Yeah. I mean, look, as I said, you know, having done my maths degree and my finance MBA, numbers were my thing. Paying, but it was learning on the job because, and that's how it was for me at the early stages in treasury. I do consider, to be very honest, HP was like my treasury school, and that was what set my foundation in treasury, starting right as an analyst doing day-to-day cash management, hands-on, bottoms-up, you know, when back in the day, this is like 24, 25 years now. Yeah, where we were still implementing in the implementation phase of treasury system, you know, FX trading investments were still down the legacy where you pick up the phone, you call 5, 10 banks at the same time and you try to get the best pricing and everything. So nothing all automated and streamlined as we have it today. So, you know, each day was a different experience and it was interesting. It was challenging the same time. It did make me nervous. It did make me unsettled, but that is what kept me going. And so I think it was more importantly, Treasury, aside of corporate finance, I would say, was still finding its place within the regional setup. So I think there were a lot of challenges as such for the function that we operated in, you know, business partnering, trying to prove Treasury as a value-added function. So it was, I think those were for me the most formative years. And then the opportunity to move within Treasury from cash management to treasury systems to business partner, you know, over time as you grow. So, you know, not to miss that, there were some of the great managers I got to work with, some great mentors who helped me through that and supported my journey. So I think it is, I thought I got the one of the, you know, I was lucky to have that entry to, into that.

And the way that I remember it being organized, 'cause I've recruited lots of the team, you know, back in the day and, you know, lots of the guys there and the, just to describe it for the audience, 'cause they, they might not know that Hewlett-Packard at the time, certainly in the, in the UK, you had, if you like, there were 3 parts of treasury, the capital market stuff that was done in the US, but you had day-to-day ops and cash management things. And then you did that and a lot of the time as you did, you then moved across to, so you knew all that side of things, but then you were doing consulting and you explained to, you weren't really, you weren't an external consultant, you were an internal consultant. So you understood that, but that gave you a great, you know, you knew the workings of cash. What, why did that make you a stronger treasury practitioner at the time, would you say?

Once you've done your day-to-day, you understand the intricacies of what goes into operational aspect of managing an entity, liquidity, funding, making sure cash is there at the right place, right time, right currency. But then what is the actual functioning of that entity, right? How does that entity operate? What is its revenue looking like? What is its expense looking like? Is it a cost-plus entity? Is it actually having certain contracts? And then what is the right setup of that entity, right? What, what should the contractual pillars be in, you know, where is it that it creates an impact when it comes to the actual hedging elements, right? Local gap, local stack level, and then the US view, US headquartered companies, the US level. So going and just going behind the scenes, so to say, right? And then working actively with the controllership teams, with the business teams, and trying to create that space to where you are not seen as someone who's just pushing the buttons on making sure you have cash available here, but taking a step back and saying, okay, are we set up the right way? Is this— if you're a dollar functional entity or if you're a euro functional entity, are we functioning the right way and are we posing any risks in, you know, just signing contracts for the heck of trying to get our contracts in place? And tried to partner with the business really. And that just went on, right? As we acquired, as we grew, and as we put on more on our plates, getting the right structure and also more broadly for treasury, what it meant to have the right cash pooling solutions in place. So it was a bit of a comprehensive view of landscape there.

And so you were at Hewlett Packard and then you made the move to GE. Can you explain to us, you know, we've had other, we were just talking earlier, Tony Massone and different people. And when you joined GE, as I've said, I think to you and other people that when you joined GE, it was GE Capital, massive business. In fact, it was bigger than actually GE at one stage itself. What was GE at the time? Because also it was an interesting one. It was a period of tremendous change. When I used to recruit for GE, it was in 2 years you'll be in a different job, in 4 years you'll be in a different country. You know, that was it. That was the way. And if you didn't like that, Do you go, but you were going through a massive change at the time. Can you talk us through the role that you took on there and things?

Yeah. I mean, I think GE again, I was there for about 7, just shy of 7 years. And I think those were really transformative as well in terms of the learning graph and, you know, what we did accomplish in those and what I did accomplish in that time as well. Worked with, as I said, some of the great people, you know, GE is, GE, I generally feel has the alumni, you know, we are still very connected and it was great. I actually Actually, Tony was the one who was my hiring manager at that point. And the task was to set up the entire treasury sort of cash management-focused function because that was everything centralized in the US. But, you know, we had grown so much outside of US as banks or finance, financial institutions, and that it required a little bit more of near-time support. You know, as we grew, as we are so regulated, we wanted to make sure that there was that view of, are we managing our cash the right way? Do we have the right structures in place? Are we, you know, timely able to address our regulatory requirements of, you know, looking at how we should be calculating our risks and so on and so forth. So there was that requirement, and then I was brought in and I had to then build a sort of team around me to be able to support that as well. And then of course the ball dropped where we decided as an organization It was too huge. So it was that this, you know, there was a decision made at the top to where GE Capital would be wound down. And so as part of that, the last 3 years or so of my job was really working on divestitures, you know, working piece by piece, trying to sell off assets, trying to sell off businesses, working very closely with, with the business development teams and trying to do that. I think that those 3 years were the most steep learning curve for me because you're not only addressing, you're carving out pieces, you're assessing the impact and it's BAU at the same time for what's remaining. So it was a fast-paced time at that point as we went through that.

Why was it so important, you think, going through that experience versus you've gone all the way up, but then you are then, as you say, carving up this business, you know, splitting out into pieces. Why did that make you a better treasurer?

Because you're also working with the actual buyer, right? You're also trying to assess where they stand in their evolution of treasury. What, you know, are you selling it to a mature institution? Are you selling it to a, you know, a more like a PE startup where, you know, they have nothing in place and you're helping them? And you're trying to assess, and, and as I said, at the same time, the challenge was there is an operating element of what is there already. So your day job is still there. This is what you're doing over and above in trying to make sure that you have the right structure in place to take and offload and then support them through the whole TSA process as well, right? To me, it was, you know, it felt like there was no dearth of excitement because there is a different issue every day, right? In terms of as trying to manage not only the newer setups but the existing ones. And then again, the risks associated with those, right, on the hedging side, on, on, you know, banking relationships, revolving facilities, everything around same time.

And then talk us through the next move to Huawei and things like that. What happened next?

Yeah, so again, I think I wasn't, you know, when we knew there would be an end date to our jobs, I was, I wasn't looking to the US, although that was an option at that point. But, you know, GE still had a lot of industrial business and also a lot of the capital remaining, right, where I could have tried to move. But I intentionally thought, you know what, maybe it's a good time to take a break, or at least so I had planned. But then, you know, I was approached for this role with Huawei while I was still with GE or just finishing off at GE. And it felt like a very interesting role where you are working for the CFO office. As they used to call it, to where you're part of the financial risk committee and review how they operate. So treasury being one of the functions, and you write white papers or report, and you report that directly to CFO and recommend of the known risks and the unknown, right? So what they have already planned for and trying to work towards, and what is it that the company is not thinking about in terms of how other corporates are doing it? So it was a bit of a benchmark, bit of a bit of a risk-finding sort of approach. And you make recommendations and then those recommendations go through review process and, you know, they get implemented. So I, in my time, I was there for about 2 years. And in that time I did 3 white papers and all of which were very well accepted and absolutely different work culture as well. You know, managed to experience China a great deal as well during my 2 years and the few trips that I had. So. Again, amazing experience at just looking and thinking, you know, how it could be different from private to public, you know, how that relationships matter, you know, how they do what they do. So again, a great sort of extent in my career.

And then you made the move to Moody's. Can you explain when you joined Moody's, what sort of 2019 or whatever, you know, who are Moody's? Some people have an external view and things like that. You know, and your role there, and, you know, to explain, you know, we've got the public statement, as I said earlier, but didn't, didn't really explain who are the company, if you like.

So when I joined, as you know, again, growing up within treasury as well, I also knew Moody's as a ratings company, right? And that's when I was first approached for that role, that's what my impression was. We are a ratings company, and that's how I would tell everyone that I'm going to, you know, try and get into that company because, you know, it's great to understand, you know, what given the level of insight that Moody's is 125-year-old, we just actually celebrated 125 years. Yeah. From the time that we started as an organization, the pace at which things have evolved within the organization, right, right from being bought and then, you know, spinning off again by Dun Bradstreet and now being the organization that we are, you can assess on how the growth has been. I think for me, when I joined Moody's, it was— I was amazed in terms of, one, the value that we bring in terms of just addressing the risks across the globe, right? Our ratings matter. And I think especially after the 2008 crisis, more so, right, where it was it was realized in terms of how important and how timely these decisions need to be from a, both from an issuer standpoint and also from an investor standpoint. And then I was also aware of the massive analytics that we offered, right? At the back of all the data that we have of, at the back of, we had just gone through when I joined a massive acquisition of Miro Dyck, which was a game changer in our analytics space, and we had, you know, we acquired such great products in terms of KYC, in terms of AML. And I think that it just felt like we were on this whole transformation journey, and I wouldn't have asked for a better place to go through with that. It was again about setting up everything from scratch. We, you know, we were just starting with our thought process on cash pools in Europe. We had nothing in APAC. And so it was important to again, set that foundation right and build the teams as I went along as well. So that was my, my start.

And what's it like for you, you know, as you say, Moody's has this analytics, you know, background and assessment of companies and things like that. So you go in there and you are operating inside, you know, you're not, you know, an external party. You're suddenly seeing it from the inside. You know, does that give you a superpower that you can use lots of that stuff, or what's it been like sort of to have hands-on, or do you just implement that straight into Treasury?

So if the question is more around, do I get any benefit because I have more insight as a Treasurer of anything that might or might not happen with the market? So I operate similar as a Treasurer. I would still be doing the same thing as any other Treasurer would do. That is staying on top of what's happening in the macro world, right? Assessing my own position in terms of what my capital allocation strategy should be, right? From reinvesting back in the business or in terms of how we support acquisitions, if that's best to be organic, inorganic. And then the most important, the return of our shareholder return, right? So I think that's how we would look at it. The best part of being with, as a treasurer for Moody's for me is when as a treasurer, somebody would go and say, okay, is this the right time for me to go into the market and issue? Is the right time, you know, what is, what is moving the treasury curve, right? 10 years, 5 years. To me, that it translates a level further because that is bread and butter for us.

You walk across the office and go, can you just tell me?

If you're not, if the company's issuers are not issuing, if people are taking a safe stance and/or not investing in the deep analytical research to try and understand what risks apply to them or not, that impacts us as a company. That is actually where we feel the hit on our, on our, on our actually bottom line and top line. Right. So again, we— so to me, that was powerful, right, to be able to get to that level of understanding with the market movers and then be able to translate that back into planning for our scenario modeling. COVID happened, right? And then we had a different era of where we went to a complete zero rate environment. Then the rates started picking up and then all of a sudden it felt like, oh, debt was so expensive, right? And so I think just going through that in terms of understanding not only as a treasurer, but also for the— from a company perspective, what it meant for us. I think that has been, that has been a unique, you know, place to be for me.

And there's a, there's been a big global aspect to you and your treasury career. And, you know, you were in London, now you're in the US and things like that. You know, having led these treasury teams across these different regions, what, what surprises you maybe still? What is common? But you know, what, how do you do it? You know, again, if someone's listening today and they're, relating to their colleagues and things like that? What, what are the key things to do and the not to do sort of thing?

Yeah, I think, you know, I was part of, even to the point I joined Moody's and again, going back to Hewlett-Packard, then GE, and we were Huawei again, that was a regional setup as well. But then I, large part of my career has been outside of the HQ right now. Of course I was, you know, with Moodys had to pull over the global treasurer role. And I think that was, to me, again, sort of a factor of where we are today with technology, right? I mean, COVID showed to us that roles can be done from anywhere and you can still get through with the level of interaction you need to be. It feels like we're in the same room. So again, it was It was again transformational. But I think the— I don't think anything surprised me when I started working globally. I think the best part of working in a global role for me is you're more connected to the core of the company. You're no longer taking a very siloed view of your planning, but aligning yourself increasingly with the corporate strategy and objectives. So that is a slight shift, but I don't think it's a surprise more so, but a mindset shift, right? So again, I'll take a small example. When I was with international, as an international treasurer, right, I was thinking more from the lens of the local entities, their local statutory reporting, what it meant. Now if I look at it from the global role, repatriation of funds from international back to HQ is such an important part of how we fund our capital allocation priorities today, right? So when you're leading a regional team, you automatically try and think more in terms of the local entity and what it means for local regulatory approvals and imply more of the conservative side of the things. But when you're managing the same thing at a global level, you are thinking more on at the top of the house, at the corporate level, and you get a little bit more aggressive in terms of how you mobilize that liquidity to avoid that external debt service cost. And, and how you can maximize the shareholder return. So I think that is a mindset shift. It wasn't really a shift more so in, in terms of, you know, it wasn't a surprise, but I think it just, you just have to change the way you look at it because you're more connected at the top there.

And is that a change in leadership style, would you say? Is that the way that you relate to your teams, or is it just the way that you sort of, you coach them or lead them?

I don't think leadership style change as a people manager. I was a people manager then, I'm a people manager now. In both cases, you retain the accountability and responsibility for the decisions you take. But yes, the severity of that increases as a global treasurer because you have to manage at many different levels and directions. For me as a treasurer, it is mainly two things. You build your team and the profile and the talent within that, and at the same time, you have to upscale treasury as a function. Within the company, right? You know how you're the face of Moody's, right? So again, you don't manage down as necessarily, but always sideways across all levels, internally, externally. I think that, that to me is a bit of a shift in the leadership style.

And so again, this is an advice show. If someone is listening today and they go, I want that job, what should they do, or what should they be anticipating, if you like?

I'm very grateful for the for the powers to be, for the career that I've had. And I don't think I would like to go back and change much of that in that sense. But I think if somebody is trying to now get on and try and think of aspiring to be targeting like a treasurer sort of role and trying to progress their career up, I would just say two things, like a little bit of patience. And do what you do and forward-looking mindset. I think those two key things are very important. And again, I say that because, you know, many times at the early stages of a career, we get very impatient. Like, you know, we want to move up quickly. We want to, you know, financially do better every time we do that. And you want to make those job changes very quickly. Just don't think about your growth as vertical, as one directional like that. It can be sideways. It can be, you know, multidimensional. You need to make sure that you get as much as possible, get that all-rounded experience that you can get. Treasury, as you know, has so many subfunctions within it. I mean, there is the systems aspect, there is the corporate aspect, there is a, you know, what you, how you work together with other things like insurance and pensions and so on and so forth. There is so much to be learned and so much to be done. So try and invest that time in it. Getting that all-rounded experience. And then growth will happen. It will happen. I think, as I said, that's where the patience element comes in. So I think the one advice is to be able to just get yourself more grounded and more aware of your organization that you work for, right? And be more connected with them. Be more understanding of what those metrics mean. And how it impacts your organization. And I think attend those investor meetings because sometimes just listening or reading, that helps. And I think I wish I had known that at my early stage as well, because I think I started doing it.

I've talked to a number of treasurers, you know, 400+ on this. And I think, you know, one of the observations actually, I was catching up with someone today, he was on an episode back in 2019. Crazy.

Yeah.

He, one of the things we touched on is that Both he and I think that, you know, we were talking about treasurer roles or treasury roles in general have become a little bit more intense in, you know, there's more, I think there's more connectedness. I think, you know, at one stage treasury let itself be pushed in a corner and it's now back out of that and it's more mainstream. But if you look at that yourself, you know, how do you deal with number one, that intensity, then how would you recommend others do it as well?

Yeah, I mean, treasury, I think given the volatile environment, we were just discussing that earlier, it has been. I mean, given how we operate today, I think every day is something that is intense for us. It keeps us going. You don't know what you wake up to as an announcement. And then, but I think we have a lot to learn from some of the previous, you know, sort of crisis that I would like to say, like the 2008—

Global financial crisis and COVID.

More problems of time or Lehman collapse. We can think of it in different ways. And then the COVID pandemic, which was followed by the regional banking crisis as well. So I think both times, one thing that has stood out for me is that you should never implement changes to systems, policies, procedures, start building new when you are in a crisis situation. You need to always plan for these things much in advance. And that's why, you know, I think for me, it's the scenario planning, it's stability, trying to make sure that your playbooks are always updated. Like, if I have the situation, then what is the level? Where is it that I can tap into? And if that also fails, what next? What next? I think that has to be the mindset that we operate with. I mean, idea is to always do a full wellness check, so to say, and test everything frequently. And again, I think the pressures are around. I mean, every time we'll always be challenged by, you know, where do you invest your time? Where do you, where do you more, what do you do more of? What do you do less of? And I think that's the balancing act that we need to constantly be, you know, keeping BAU, again, operational aspect in mind. I think there's always that. And now with the whole AI and the tech that we're faced, the fast pace of what we are seeing evolve, I think that's another thing that is coming to us fast.

So you've got these pressures, you've got the intensity of dealing with all that stuff, and now technology coming this way. And I know that CFOs— I've talked about it on the show before where CFOs, you know, when I've described it to people, when they say, oh, what does Treasury do? I said, well, your CFO's got your tax guy sorting out today, you know, the tax bill. Financial control, today's money and backwards, you know, Treasurer is today's money. And, you know, can you go and check out these new things coming along? A few years ago was blockchain. Now it's AI and technology and, you know, you'll be, you guys are having to deal with, you know, still deal with even more with less people. But where do you focus or what do you think is the challenge for treasurers and how they deal with it going forward? What's coming down the line, do you think?

And there's a lot that we could be challenged with on a daily basis, but I think it's all about where you want to focus your and your team's energy, right? And I think we're, Exactly going through that as we set the tone for '26, you know, we are getting together as a team to understand how we align ourselves. So there is this top of the house objectives for the organization that cascades down to the finance objectives, and then we have to build our own as Treasury objectives to then plug in with the finance objectives. So when simply speaking for me, and I'll say that I'm pretty sure also the one that delivers the most return, right? I think that's where I would focus my energy. But I think Treasury and more broadly finance, I think we are always expected to do more with less because we are stewards of financial discipline, right, when it comes to expense management. So as we need to do all of this, it is important to understand how you best resource and anticipate your next need and do that timely enough. So when I'm looking at my objectives for the year, I'm not only thinking about how I address my pain points, but I'm also thinking about What would it be that will cause the most shift for me or reduce my operational time to then push that more into the strategic slice of where the team should be focused on? So I think that's the constant challenge that we maintain. The ecosystem in which we operate today, there has been a huge push and shift of getting that, the data foundation right, especially as we're stepping into the AI or the agentic AI era. And there we'll see the most savings or productivity increase, let's put it like that, right? So I think the, the ask for me and my team is simply that try to free your time in leveraging these tools so we can do more value-added tasks like, you know, advice and forecasting and, and trying to understand or question the, the, the reasons behind the deviation rather than trying to build something from scratch. So there is, there is that roadmap that we're trying to build towards on that one.

Yeah. And you and I have known each other for many years and things, and throughout your career, you know, were you, you know, we're talking about public speaking and being out there and representing yourself. And again, you joined me on one of my Treasure Corner Lives in London for you. Now you're doing it in New York, basically because I made you. I said, come on, come on, please. And you've been very kind to do so. But have you always been, you know, and you gave some great value. I remember everyone coming up after and saying, oh my God, she's great. I went, I know, don't worry. Yeah, I knew she'd be great and you were, you give some great value to the audience, but is that a natural thing or have you trained yourself on it? How do you know what should other people listening today do?

You know, it might not look like that, Mike, but I don't think I'm very extroverted in terms of, you know, leave me in a room full of people and I do get nervous and I do get my, go into that sort of a shy moment. But no, I think it's, you know, if you wanna talk treasury to me, then I don't think I'll be shy. Right. And you find your safe space. And I think I found my safe space in Treasury. And I think as you grow and as you learn in your career, and as I said, as much as invest time in yourself, like what I strongly feel that there is, if I am in Treasury and if I'm totally committed to my role, then I think I need to make sure that I take the time out to make myself a bit more of a well-rounded professional in that space. So that is what I do, and that sort of maybe gives me that confidence to be able to go and speak in an informed way. And for me, more broadly, when I am looking and talking to the younger generation of treasury professionals, I think it's all about giving back, right? If I've made mistakes along the way in my career, or if I think looking back now what I could have done differently or not, or where I got the best, you know, tailwind in my career and how that would benefit others, that's what I would do.

Yeah.

That's where I aim to be.

Yeah. And it's funny when I, well, two weeks ago, so I did it in Chicago one time, was giving a speech and halfway through someone said, well, you love this stuff or blah, blah, blah. And I went, I hate public speaking. They're like, yeah, of course. I went, I said, no, I knew that the only way for us to grow our business in America is to get on a stage to start to be at the front of the room. And that then also led, when I spoke at the New York, the T Money conference, New York, actually, and I said, and this, I sat down, the guy said, oh, you did that. So I said, that's a practice skill. I don't enjoy that. But the fact is I'm now talking to you and you might become a business partner with us. And I said, if I just sat here and had a coffee with you, am I likely to expand our business? Are we gonna grow it? Are we gonna do this? He was like, no, I suppose not. And I think a lot of treasury professionals, just like yourself, put your hand up and volunteer, you know, and just, just get involved like you've done as well. So, you know, I think that's key. And so you've given, been very giving of your time. We're gonna put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. But as we wrap up today, I was just looking at some of the actual questions I usually say about give advice to junior guys and things. As you reflect back, what advice would you perhaps give to yourself over your career? What sort of advice would you give to people?

So I think again, I would go back to the same thing, right? Growth happens, but it doesn't happen every year. It doesn't happen every 2 years, right? I do get a lot of that question when I'm in the, especially around this time when it's a year-end review, right? To what next? What can I, when do I expect my next career promotion or title? My response, again, patience and forward-thinking mindset, right? I mean, you need to be able to, deliver, and you need to be able to understand the broader picture in terms of where and how you can expand. Do not be contained in your job because that's what your description is. You know, you can make the job, you can make a role to whatever you would like it to be if you just put your hand up and try and say, you know what, I would like to learn more or do different or move sideways and cross-collaborate or And I think that's where I think is the biggest benefit. If I look back at my career, I think that's the advice I would give to myself as well, that growth has to happen in all directions. And then again, I think now if you're looking around yourself and if you're looking at— I think, Mike, you would know that more than anyone else— when you're looking at a new job spec for a new hire in treasury, you're not just looking at the basic qualifications, but you're looking for somebody who has agility, who has adaptability, who can use technology, right? We're not asking tech experts, but we are asking for somebody who is open-minded and can experiment with what's out there and understands the value of deriving what we want to derive from the gigabytes and terabytes of data that we have available today, right? So again, don't shy away from the pace of change, I would say, and don't You can't sit on the fence. You have to be in it to move it.

And do you think that's the same for the treasurers as well? How do they do that? What do you think they need to be thinking about? The same stuff?

The same stuff. And, you know, I mean, just alone last year, I, you know, there were a lot of forums that we attended. I mean, I attended with other treasurers and a lot of the discussions around tables are exactly this, right? Not only teams, but, you know, the leader is only as good as the team is, right? And so If we are not doing the same, if you're not, if I'm not embracing technology, if I'm not leading with confidence because I know what it means to do something different, then I cannot push that same thing down with the team as well. So I think the, and that's the theme across our organization. Everyone's very upbeat about it. So I think it's setting the tone from the top is very important. So I think if we as treasurers want to make that change, I think we need to be starting with that change.

Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to seeing you literally a month today on a stage near you in New York. So thank you very much.

And yeah, thank you so much for having me, Mike. Pleasure. Thank you. Thanks. Bye-bye.

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