Networking Secrets and Career Growth in Treasury with Forrest Cebold

Foreign.

To this week's episode of the Treasury Career Corner podcast where I talk to treasurers each and every week about their careers. This week I'm catching up with Forrest Sebold. I originally spoke to Forrest. He still is the treasurer, Freeport LNG. Great guy. But I last spoke to him in January 2021. We're now in the summer of 2023. Forrest and I catch up. He's still got great value to add. So what you'll get to hear is his initial show, which was great to talk to him about his career. He's a great networker, how he discovered finance and treasury. Relationships are a big thing with Forest. He's a great guy, real passion to give and looking forward to seeing him later this year. But in addition to that, then we pick up the story from now we talk about what's, what's happened since 2023 and onwards and some of the other value that you can bring about, networking, inflation and all the other things that are coming through. So enjoy the original show and then we pick up the story a bit later in this week's show. Delighted to be joined by Forrest Sebold, the treasurer at Freeport LNG. Now Freeport LNG founded in 2002. Basically they're in the oil and gas industry and that's a big key feature of Forrest's background. And I'll get him to describe that both the company and as always go through his background. We had a pre podcast call, as always, and one of the key things we brought out on that was discussing about some of the interviews that people go through in their careers and things like that, and about how essentially if you're the last man standing or last person standing rather, that you get the job and things like that. So I think that's something that's going to come out later on in our discussions. But first of all, Forrest, who, although he's actually from Texas or based in Texas, he's actually now in Colorado. So he's looking at this beautiful vista. I'm looking out at some foam in my podcast shed, which is lovely. Very jealous. But he's got his coffee there, so hopefully he's ready to go. Forrest, take us back to the well where you started your career, how you discovered finance and Treasury. As always, it's over to you, sir.

Great. Absolutely. Thank you very much, Mike. I appreciate the introduction.

Pleasure.

Okay, let me do start out in my very first job out of undergraduate school. It was a small startup company and I had the opportunity to go out and be exposed to all Three, which I'll call financial areas. Can you elaborate that on a little bit? The areas I'm talking about are basically accounting, budgeting and forecasting and then Treasury. So I was exposed to all those three areas quite extensively over a period of three or four year period. And that's when I realized of all those financial functions I like treasury the best. And why I like treasury the best was because when I thought the actual subject matter was a little more exciting in terms of investments and debt management. And also I like the fact that treasury as opposed to some of the other financial functions is outward focusing. And what I mean by that is when you're in treasury you focus a lot of your interactions with people outside of your company. There's also functions inside that you're focused on, but outside you do a lot of work with banks and other financial institutions, which I really enjoyed. So that's where I decided I want to get into the treasury function within the finance function. Now I really value the experience I had in accounting and in financial planning or budgeting because it does definitely help you in the treasury field. But I definitely, I myself that this is the area that I want to focus on. So I realized at that age, at that point in time to get ahead I really needed to specialize in treasury and what do treasury professionals look for in terms of hiring. And there were two things at that time in my career and one was an mba. And so I realized that's what I needed. So I went back part time and got my mba which is it's a busy schedule when you're working full time and going to school part time. But that's what was needed. And secondly I decided that you need to get the certification that's most applicable to treasury. And at that time it was called a Certified Cash Manager. Subsequent to that they now change it to a CTP certified Treasury Professional. So I was able to get both of those accomplished and then I was able to basically get a job, a Treasury job. I had to switch companies and that that kind of goes to one of the point I wanted to make is you have to be committed, right. Committed to the treasury function.

Yeah.

If your career is important to you, you're going to have to make sure sacrifices. And one of my sacrifices was I'm have to go to school part time, you know, take some time away from the family by doing that and of course get the certification. So I think with any professional career you're going to have to identify that what your area interest is and the sacrifices that you'll make to distinguish yourself in that field. So that was what I was able to do. And then again I had to take a job at a company that was less than ideal. And when I say less than ideal, it had financial difficulties but at least enabled me to the opportunity to get into the field of treasury, which I decided I wanted to do. And that's one of my overall points is if you want to advance in your career, you're going to have to be flexible. We all want to work for the company that's very successful and very fun to work for and everyone knows of the name and it's very proud organization. That's not most organizations. Some are going to be financially not, you don't want to say precarious, but maybe they're not as profitable as you like them to be. Maybe they're in an industry that's not as attractive or let's face it, the power people need treasury people too. So do the sand and gravel people. So you've got to be, if you're a Treasury professional, you've got to focus less on. I want the ideal job with the high tech company that's very attractive. Well, I want a. I'm going to look for the best opportunity I can get. So I was able to get in on the ground floor within treasury and really learn about all the various functions within Treasury. And so I was able to get the staff position and then quickly moved up to the supervisor position there. And I think the way, the way you have to do that is you have to kind of focus on let your boss know that your career path includes a supervisory or manager level position. So they know that right away that while you're currently hired as a staff person, your immediate goals are to get to a manager position. I was able to do that fortunately. And then that company, after a few years I did leave that company for another opportunity. My first job was actually in aviation.

Yeah.

And the second job was in healthcare. So that's an important part of treasury is. I don't think it's as industries with part focused as some of your other careers. If you're an engineer or something like that, money is fungible. So it's less of a focus on the industry and more on the actions that you're doing.

Yes.

Because it's a very similar process. Whether you're negotiating a loan or conducting cash transactions, you could be in various industries. Like I said, I started out in aviation was healthcare. And then the healthcare company was relocating to Philadelphia away from Dallas, Texas where my current Job was. And I had heard about that. I wasn't sure and I was very fortunate. I saw an ad in the newspaper and that's the way most jobs were found back then. They added to the newspaper. Now it's totally different. Wow. I'll get into that later.

Yeah.

How the recruiting of treasury has evolved over the years anyway. So that. Yeah, you really. People don't rarely get jobs now through the newspaper. Anyway. I was able to get a job at Super Cub Corporation and I was able to get a job. I moved up from manager of treasury to assistant treasurer. Supercup Corporation was actually a retail holding company. So again a different industry. Right. We sold video stores and CDs. So CDs back in the day, people had CDs that you listened to that obviously gone by the wayside. That was. It was a retail establishment. Again it's a totally different industry from healthcare and aviation, but it's the same concepts where you're managing money. This company was a little more internationally focused. We had stores throughout the UK and that's one thing that I think I wanted to target myself in terms of a career. I wanted international exposure. So that's the important aspect of the treasury professional. I think if you want to get into treasury because it opens the door for more jobs, there's more jobs in the treasury function that have an international focus. And when I say international focus, that means like bank accounts that may be outside your home country, foreign exchange activities. So if you want to focus on international treasury, it tends to look better on your resume and also expand your knowledge and expand your. How attractive you are to potential employers.

Yeah. So we're going to move through some of the other industries you've done as well. But because what I want to also perhaps focus on, you got the exposure in terms of international scope of a role which obviously varies according to different companies. But as you move through you've also had different companies that have had different levels of capital intensity if you like. So with capital intensive business, manufacturing, pharmaceuticals and things like that, how important do you think that is versus industry as such? It can be in different industries, but they're both capital intensive or less capital intensive. Maybe a service industry. That's perhaps where it's more where it differs. Is that right? Would you say?

To an extent. It depends what function you're at within treasury if you're in a capital raising function. So in other words, if you're responsible for debt management, debt issuance or equity issuance, that becomes critical. Now if you're working for a private company that's privately funded. That's a totally different aspect in how you raise capital. You're dealing with partners and things like that. So again, some treasury roles are capital raising intensive and some are not. And if you get to a private company versus a public company, that's a big aspect. Then after I moved from I was at Super Cub Corporation and they were bought out and that's a career train that was forced upon me. And that may happen in your career where you work at full organization and they're purchased by another organization.

My advice to people is to make sure that they are known to the company that's making the acquisition. You need to let them know that you're very capable and willing to do whatever is asked of you to take.

On any role that's needed. In other words, you've got to be proactive in that situation and identify decision makers at the company that's doing the acquiring to let them know you're very interested in staying out with the company. Because I falsely assumed the CFO was going to be looking out for all of us and that wasn't the case. So my advice would be if you're an organization and it's being acquired by another company, which very well may happen, we know what the amount of virtue and acquisition activity that's going on in the world. Be prepared, be proactive and reach out to the company that's doing the acquiring, the decision makers, probably the senior financial people or senior treasury people, let them know you're interested, you're flexible and you're.

Willing and make sure you're on their radar for. Yeah. As a potential person. Yeah.

As opposed to having you think someone in your organization is going to look out for your interest because their focus and their career is they're focused on maybe their next opportunity when really the decision makers are going to be at the company that's doing the acquiring.

So, Forrest, you were at Super Club and then you made that move to Ensco. Can you perhaps talk us through what made you made that move and how did you find the role? What actually happened with yourself?

Absolutely. SuperClub Corporation was in the video CD rental business and that was acquired by Blockbuster. So it was an acquisition. So unfortunately at the end of the day was out of the role and out of the job and had to move to another company. I found the job at Ensco via the newspaper and obviously that has really changed over the years in helping you find those opportunities. And it was a very different role in terms of the industry. Superclub Corporation was a retail holding company and Ensco is an international energy company and it's also, it's public whereas Super Club Corp. Was a private company in the role was similar in the aspect that I was in a Treasury team but I moved really hit because it was a situation where I had to move down a little bit. Sometimes you have to move down to move up. I was the assistant treasurer at SuperClub Corp. And became the treasury manager at Ensco. So again I think parts of my being flexible keep my career going so to speak. I had to take a step back, go down a level if you will to a different title to stay employed. But that's okay because it allowed me an opportunity to move into like I said, a larger public company where the structure is very different than a private company. You've got the ownership structure is obviously shareholders as opposed to individual or a series of individuals. And also the usually the debt section management is different. You got. You may have public debt and when I'm on being public debt that's that that is owned by public in the form of bondholders versus usually just maybe.

Like a bank facility.

Private company.

You've got a number of roles within oil and gas and that was your first role within, within that industry as well. So a move across from a private group to a public group and then. But in terms of industry what was that move like making the move into oil and gas?

Retail is a. It was a little more progressive industry obviously so it was a more diverse work environment. Whereas oil and gas is very traditional in nature. It is a different culture, it's a little more male dominated so to speak. That again goes to being my point about being flexible. You've got to kind of adapt to the culture of the company. You want it to be fair and honest. But on the other hand you got to realize that every company has its own culture and you've got to adapt a little bit to survive.

Often that's a big stuff and we've got some guys listening today that might be in smaller groups, private groups as you say and things like that. Your treasury career has weathered those storms. Talk us through from ENSCO and then carry on the development if you would.

Sure, yeah. And like I said when I moved to Ensco I quite literally have to take a pay cut. So that good kinds in terms of flexibility you can't always just focus on the compensation. Like that's obviously that's what the big boat and that's why we're all working. But you can't make that the sole driving factor because that tends to be. That tends to limit you or again it's more important to get your foot in the door and then make yourself valuable to that nc, you know. So I think that's one thing about being flexible and I'll talk about this a little later in my. One of my other treasure moves is you have to be flexible in terms of geography. But. And that may or may not always be the case for you individually but I think it's important if you know you're really truly committed to your career to be flexible geographic. So anyway I was at. I started. I had to take a step backwards, right. I was went from being the assistant treasurer at Super Club Koch to being the treasury manager at ensco. So again it was a bit of a step back. But what you have to do sometimes what you have to do. And I was able to fortunately I worked there a long time able to get promoted to the assistant treasurer and learned at that time a lot of the international focus that we talked about earlier because we had operations really probably about 30 countries and with bank accounts in all those countries and operations in all those countries, it should be a focus on pretty much a global footprint. You had about 40% of our just being international. When I say international coming outside of us.

So when you have that. Because again a lot of the listenership is coming from within the US and you've worked in both sides and things like that. How do you manage those international relationships as you growing through your career? Is it constantly reaching out to those guys and keep them on side or is it because this. We're talking pre zoom, pre zoom goals. Is it just hitting the phones or how did you manage it exactly?

Yeah, it was hit. It was hitting the phones and building a relationship is just that I think you got to. You have to make a constant effort and I think it has to be a meaningful effort. When I think meaningful, you have to work on it to build that rapport. They have to build your trust if they're asking information or asking assistance of you because that's often the case. Right. You're at a Treasury, you're often at the corporate location but you're dealing with banks and individuals that are away from the corporate office. So you and they're. You've got to realign that situation there. They always. Most of the field locations that you're dealing with look at treasury and look at the corporate office as overhead in reality because the revenue is being made usually in the field or at this other location in so You've got to build their trust and build the focus is on helping them do their job. That's really at the end of the day, that's what they're trying to do.

Yeah.

Looking at, like you said, looking at the value that you can add to them and to their job and at the end of that's how you build a relationship and that's how you build value because you're providing information or assistance to them. They know that you're then the person that they can go to if they need help or that they respect enough that if there's an issue they'll be. You want to make sure that they can pick up the phone or send you an email. So I think building that relationship takes, like I said, it takes effort and it takes constant effort. You don't want to just talk to them or deal with them or send them an email when you need something, let them know that you're reaching out to them and ask them if they need anything. So I think that's important. We've got to realize that time zone differences and there could be language issues. There's certainly currency issues that you need to consider when you're working with international, their currencies are going to fluctuate their focus more on their currency than they may be on the US dollar. So you kind of really look at from their perspective.

No. And then we'll walk us through them from Transocean, Lufkin and more recently Freeport because again I know we're on a time deadline today and I don't want to lose, run out of time because then you were assistant treasurer and then made the move to Treasury. Just talk us through those if you would.

Sure, absolutely. Yeah. That goes into. And it became my overall career advice and how I was able to move from Ensco to Transocean. At Ensco, I work for a gentleman, Ramon Yi, who was the treasurer of the company and I'm going to talk about take aways to one of the ways to move up and one of the ways is to ride the coattails or someone or make an impression on an individual such that if they move to somewhere that's maybe a little bigger or more, more lucrative that they'll hopefully when time, when times come they'll realize that you're the candidate that they want to really bring along. That's how I was able. My boss moved from Ensco, which was a company that was, I was probably about a. At that time it was probably close to a billion dollar company in terms of revenue. To a company of Transocean, which was quite a bit bigger. And he moved from. He was the treasurer, and he was the treasurer then at Transocean. Lo and behold, he made me an offer to be the assistant treasurer at Transocean. So that's how I was able to get the opportunity. But again, it talks about the commitment I made earlier in terms of being able to be flexible. And the reason I say that is because my original job at NSCO was in Dallas, Texas, and the Transocean job was in Houston, Texas. So I had to move. And that's a pretty big, significant move. My family was established and very much at home in Dallas, Texas, but they. Well, we all decided to make the move. So that's. That was my point earlier about being flexible geographically. I had to make the commitment to move, and it turned out to be a pretty good move for me. Transocean's a bigger company with more international exposure. We were actually based in the Cayman Islands, and that had its own interesting aspects and also based. Then we moved the company headquarters to Switzerland. So I was able to stay there as the assistant treasurer. And then as the case sometimes, Ray, my boss, moved on. He moved on to another company. So you have to be prepared. If you ride the coattails of someone, you got to be prepared that they move on. You may have to move.

Yeah, time to go.

Yeah, exactly. And that. That was exactly what happened at Transocean. And then I moved on to Lufkin Industries. And again, I talked about being geographically flexible. Lufkin Industries was in a smaller town in East Texas, gave me the opportunity to be treasurer. So with that, I was willing to move into a smaller town to get that treasurer title because definitely that was a goal that I had all along my career. And I had to move up. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to get to that level in order to move. In order to get to that level, I had to be flexible to change companies and also to change in terms of geographic location.

And what would the contrast for you? The. What was the. Okay, it's a step up assistant treasurer to treasurer. Buck stops with you. Maybe a little bit more, or probably did already. But was there any other contrast or the things that you really noticed? Whoa, hang on. I'm now the treasurer. Was there anything that you picked out that, again, for the listeners today that they should be thinking about when they're making that move to the number one job?

I think as with any move up the organization, you have to be prepared to realize what that entails. Now, obviously, people often focus on oh wow. It's going to be, it's more money and it's more prestige. Yes. That's cheerlead. But it's also going to be more time. It's going to be probably more effort. It's probably going to be more stress. It's certainly going to be more responsibility which each move that tends to. They run in parallel. Yeah. So I think you just have to be prepared for that. You're going to be prepared for that move in terms of, okay, be careful what you really want. Right. And if you really want, that's fine. But just realize what goes along with it and be prepared. That's what's going to happen. You'll have more people working for you, so you'll have more personnel issues to deal with. Odds are when you move up the organization because your organization grows under you that you're dealing with more people.

Yeah. And when you did that, when you got the treasurer role and things, what was it like for you, managing a team and leading a team? Obviously you've been the number two for a number of other years and roles. What was that like then suddenly being the lead, the full on leader?

I thoroughly enjoyed it because a couple of reasons. One that you, like you said, the book does stock with you. You are the decision maker often and you have to live with those results. But I actually enjoyed that. And also you had the direct year of the cfo, whereas usually if you're the assistant treasurer, you've got to go through the treasurer to get to the CFO for most items. So that was one thing that really helped. You got the direct year of the cfo because you usually report to the cfo. So you've got more influence at the company than when you're at that level, certainly. So you can make, you can make a bigger dent, you can make a bigger impact, but you've got to realize you can make a bigger impact positively and negatively.

Yeah.

So you just got to realize that when you move to that level of an organization, what happened? Like I said, I was ready for that and I really wanted that and it was part of my overall career goal. We'll talk a little about this later. But there was a very different interview process process than the other interviews I've been on. The advantages I've had of changing jobs so much. I've interviewed a lot. It could be viewed as a negative or a positive, but you got to realize every interviewer is a little different. And then I, that that company was bought out. Again, I, there's another buyout scenario, right. That company was bought out by GE Oil and Gas and which is a very different company. I went from a company with about $1.5 billion worth of sales to $150 billion worth of sales. So our organization was 1% of their sales. And that really wasn't my ideal situation. A very, very large company where I felt like I couldn't really make much of an impact. So while they did, they did keep me on and I was deployed by them really was an ideal role. So I started. I kept on looking for jobs. And while I was working, that's the. It's the easiest find a job when you're looking for a job. That's very true. And also you're just more appealing when you're looking at a resume and you see the gap. It's always just. It's always just the raises a a bit of a question in the interviewer's mind. So it's always best to look for a job when you have a job. So that's what I was doing at that point in time. And it's funny because I was interviewing for two jobs at that time. And you can tell when you're on the short list because you've gone through several interviews. You're actually with the CFO and maybe even the CEO of the organization. And I was interviewing for two jobs, both in the industry, both in Houston, both trucker level position and the job I really wanted, I thought I really wanted. I did not get that job. But the. But Freeport L and D did. I did get that job. Fortunately and ironically it turned out that the job that I thought I wanted, that person, I didn't. I actually ended up meeting the person later on and about a year ago I was. That person was laid off. So my point being there is you never know what job is ideal for you until you get there. And this turned out that you want a frequent LG turned out to be just a fantastic job. Kind of my current career goals and career management, and I can elaborate on that a little bit more is I'm at a stage in my career where I don't really need to be managed much, at least as far from my perspective. So I'm in a situation where my boss really lets kind of make me do what I need to do and it really works out well in terms of my relationship with him and throughout the organization.

But first, let's go. We'll come back to that. Empowering your staff and things like that in a moment. If you could. Let's just talk just again if you could explain to people what Freeport is about your current company. And then what I'd like to do is broaden it into some of your other views because I think people will get. We've only got 20 minutes running and I want to make sure that the people listening today get the most out of it. You know I think you've got some great views on recruitment and things like that. So just tell us about Freeport as a company and things.

Yeah, Freeport LNG is a. The LNG stands for liquefied natural gas. So we're fortunate in the way that we're in a very narrow area of the oil and gas industry that's doing well because as we know right now the commodity prices aren't too high and most people are not doing that well in that sector. But also liquefy natural gas. So the United States has an abundance of natural gas so we're fortunate that we just liquefy it and then that it gets shipped around the world. If you remember anything about Chemistry 101 the only way you can liquefy any gas is to super cool it. So it shrinks about 600 to 1 from a gas to a liquid, goes on a tanker and gets shipped ships throughout the world. That's what we do from a productions perspective. Again I'm the treasurer so I deal with capital raising and moving money and managing money and debt management, things like that.

But whenever that's where.

Yes, that's what our particular industry does.

And I said, we said earlier about the global is a big part of your ethos or the sort of your responsibilities when that comes down onto a people level. And this is where we're going to start to broaden back into that and bosses and things like that. But again you deal with. There were some treasurers in the US for instance who will deal with lots of people but they literally will just talk to people in their own country in the US because it's big enough, fair enough. But you obviously have an international outlook. How have you seen that over the years? And obviously that's been a key part of your history and background. How do you manage all those different relationships and things we talked about being on the phone and stuff. Do you see there are different ways to approach problems or what do you think?

Yeah, I think you need to gain some in country knowledge maybe about. About. About their particular banking system. And every country is different in terms of how they operate their banking system. Surely the UK is different than Japan. That's different than Brazil. So I think one aspect is to gain some general knowledge about the way the banking system operates there with the major players, I want to say major players, major banks are within their country. Certainly you want to get a feel for the currency itself that dominates that country. Right. Is it a floating currency? Is it pegged to the US Dollar? Is it an open currency like the Egyptian Pounds are very. It's a very controlled environment. It's very hard to get Egyptian pounds. It's very hard to convert Egyptian pounds to US dollars. So I think you need to learn about some of the details of operating within that country from a Treasury perspective. That's banking, that's truancy related. That's how funds are moved in and out, historical interest rates and things like that. So I think you gotta learn about the country itself to help you kind of operate within that country. Even if you never get to physically go there, you understand how to operate in there in terms like from banking perspective and from a local operations perspective because that's who you're supporting, right? Supporting the local, your local operations often.

That's really interesting. But what I want to do again because listeners were here, we were on we've got to make sure that we get enough time of yours, which is fantastic. We spoke before today. You've got a fascinating career where you've made all these moves. Some treasurers will be 20 years in one job. So their knowledge of making moves and recruitment and the market in that sense is more limited than yours. Now there were two or three points I wanted to make. We'll come back to the about being a boss and empowering your team and stuff in a minute. What I wanted to do was jump in on it's easier to find a job when you're in a job and about being the last person standing. Because we spoke about this before and I thought we had some really good views there. So if we just look back at your career and when you were easier to find a role when you versus when you perhaps maybe when you weren't in a role, how did you find that made your processes? Because I think certainly when I've spoken to people sometimes there's a slightly different thought process. When you're a Treasury professional, you're between roles, you don't have a role at that time. Whereas when you're in a role, certainly when I put candidates forward for roles and things like that, they're much more relaxed if they've already got a job. And it makes you make the right choices because you're not thinking crumbs. How am I going to pay the bills next week? It's much more. The bills are paid. Am I just choosing this role for the right reasons? Have you found that yourself with your career?

To an extent. To an extent, yeah. I think that's true. I think you're obviously much more selective when you're looking for a job. You're going to pretty much jump on the first opportunity that comes along. It may not be like I said, the greatest company and the greatest industry or the greatest competition level, but you're going to make that move. And if you can start to look for your job when you're in a current role, you're much more controlled in your decision making and you can, you're, I think you. Plus you're much more in tune with red to red flags too. Something comes up. Well, every you interview you always want to ask how is this position created? Is this a growth? Is this a gross situation? Is this situation where this person was, was terminated? The red flag goes off as well. Yeah. We can't seem to fill this role with the right person. Oh, this is the. I think this role has been open every year for the last three years. That's a red flag.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's kind of situation. But if you're, if it's the point where you know, you really need a role, you're going to look through that. Whereas I think if you're just, you don't need the role, you're going to say okay and probably move on. I think in terms of when you make that decision that you know you're going to look for another opportunity. I think really does you have to do the homework upfront. Right. In other words, you can't say, boy, I'm going to start looking for a job you have to work on. You have to make sure you build up your network before then.

Right.

Because sometimes that may be the opportunity that you need. So in other words, and that's a skill set to build up your network. And how do you do that? It goes back to what I alluded to before. You've got to stay in touch with people.

Yeah.

You've got to connect with them on a regular basis. And sometimes it's nothing. It could be nothing more than an email or it can be nothing more than a phone call. But. And you've got to identify people that you value in terms of your career and it doesn't have to be necessary. People that are in the treasury professional. It could be bankers. Often bankers have great Roles because they are in touch with treasurers and assistant treasurers throughout the industry. So I think you got to keep your network in terms of people you. Not just necessarily that are in the treasury profession, but people that know of treasury openings and like, like, like bankers.

And Forrest, I think you're making a brilliant point there. And one thing that I've heard from a lot of people and want you to do the talking, but I was going to bring it up is that number of treasurers or senior treasury professionals only start networking when they suddenly need a job. And it's a little bit. Not desperate, but it's a little bit. Sometimes some of the people that, oh, we didn't. Haven't spoken for five years, hey, I'm looking for a role. Do you know things. And then I. Yeah, but you didn't bother to be interested in me or things like that. But you are an active networker, which I know is fantastic skill. It's not just your banking staff and everything else that's obviously really helped you, would you say?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because one, one of my opportunities I found was just through that. It was a banker. Yeah, A banker said, hey, these guys are looking for someone. Whoa, that's great. I think that's important. You can't just start. I can't wake up today and say I'm start looking for a job. Yeah, you gotta be prepared. You gotta. It's not just like having your resume ready and having your information out there on LinkedIn, which is good and you need that, but you really have to develop the relationships beforehand so you can use those people. And probably that's not a great term, use those people. But surely have those people help you. And you know what, I have them as connections. I've had a lot of people. Yeah, it's.

And I've had a lot of people.

Come to me and say, hey, I'm looking for something. And you know what? And that's great because then I know, I ever know if I'm in that boat, I'm. They're very much likely to help me if needed.

Yeah.

So it's a quid pro quo situation when you have these business networks and.

It'S cultivating it and you're cultivating in a positive fashion, not just in a. I want to use you to hop step in them. You help them, they help you. And what goes around comes around paying it forward.

And I think it's important too because, you know, I get being in at a, as a Treasury level position. I get people all the time. On LinkedIn that want to link in with me.

Yeah.

And they could be, they may be at a lower credit fresher. And I'm not going to just link in this person because I know they just want to try to use me to get a job. It's when you build a network, it has to be reciprocal. You have to help the people and they have to help you. So I think that's important in terms of when you want to make that move. Got to build your network. It depends on what level you add too. Sometimes when you're just starting out and we can go into this a little more, but when you're just starting out, you've got to make sure you check the boxes for those entry level positions.

Yeah.

And what do I mean by that? If it requires a degree in X, you've got to get that degree in X. And you could, you could try to convince yourself that's not important or that's not needed, but at the end of the day, that's not your decision. That's the hiring person's decision. So you've got to check the boxes like I did early in my career. Oh, an mba. Okay, I got that. Okay. The certification. Okay, I got that. So you've got to, when you're, you're starting out in your career, you've got to check those boxes.

You got to put the work in.

Yeah. And then, and then when you get older in your career, it's certainly situations like they don't really look at, oh, where did you go to school? Okay, whatever. They're really looking at maybe some more specific skill sets or specific things you did in your career that they're looking for. And you can't be discouraged if you don't have that one job that I did not get that I thought I really wanted was they wanted someone with IPO experience. I didn't have it at that time. No, I didn't get the job. But I'm not going to beat myself over the up, up over that because I just didn't have that one particular type of experience. But you've got to be prepared. That's what some things, when you get to a certain level, that's what they're looking for because they're, everyone they're going to interview is going to have all the boxes checked. They're going to have enough experience, but they may be looking for something that's very specific.

We talked about that and there's a crossover with that functional thing and industry experience. As I said at one stage, I was nearly going to be recruiting this treasurer for a consulting stroke engineering firm in la. And the senior guy there said, have you recruited any other senior treasurers in LA in this industry? And I was like, no, because there's just. It's like you're the biggest company and as you say, there's certain things you do get. People who've got IPO experience got different. But that's more functional experience rather than industry specific and level and everything else. It was just again, you. It's about you developing the other facets of your experience as well, isn't it?

Yeah. And that goes back to when I said be flexible and be, be proactive. The more kind of experiences you can have within the treasury function. Again, that's IPO experience or international experience, or experience with letters of credit or anything like that. Looks good too, because you may eventually interview for a position where they need that box checked. So that's why I think you've got to be prepared to expand your role, prepared to maybe make the move to broaden your experience base because you never know when the next recruiter is going to need that facilitate type of experience.

Apologies to budding, but we're gonna. You've. I know you've got a hard stop in 5, 6 minutes, so before we leave you today, we're going to go to your LinkedIn profile a minute. But before we do that, just. I just wanted to go back and you talked about you've worked under various bosses and perhaps reflecting on some of those and the best ones you've had and what you've taken from them to be a best boss yourself and how you've empowered people. I know we spoke about this before the show again, what have you seen from people that you've borrowed from them, as it were, and what. What should people be thinking about when they're listening today?

Sure, absolutely. I think one, you could learn from everybody. So you could also learn for your boss. You can learn from people that work for you and be aware of situations. Like if you're working for someone and they ask you or they. In your review process, they mention a particular character trait that maybe you don't agree with. I should be more patient. Let's say they say that and I don't agree with that, but if someone else tells me that same thing, I've got to realize and be mature enough to know I'm wrong there. I need to be more patient. So I think, listen to what people are telling you. You know, it's about being, being, being a good Communicator. So like we said, you've got. You said before you got two ears and one mouth. So make sure you use it proportionally. So on that side, I would think is he. Listen a lot. Listen to people that are above you, listen to people that are below you, listen to people that are across from you. And it's really try to take what. And use that source, use them as a source's network, because if you can earn their respect again, you can ride their coattails. And people. And people change jobs for all sorts of reasons. And you never know when that person may work for them now and you may work for them 10 years from now in a different role, a different company. If you've got that again, it goes with keeping the. Keeping your network into. If you really respect someone, if you work for them, keep in touch with them, regardless of where they go. I think that's real important. And I'm. And I still keep in touch with my. My bosses that are retired.

Yeah.

So I think that's just an important aspect to have. And to be honest, we talk a little about interviewing skills because I've interviewed a lot and there's certain aspects that I think I've learned over the years and we talk about that. You've got to understand who you're interviewing, and you got to let them lead. And I've had certain interviews where they sit back and ask a question and they expect a long, detailed answer and they'll ask another question, and that's what they want to get. And then I've had interviews with it. They do 80 or 90% of the talking. And my point there is whenever you're interviewing some, you need to let them take the lead because some people like to talk. Right. And they may like to talk about themselves and they might like to talk about whatnot. And some people want you to talk and you to sell yourself, which is fine, but you just need to be prepared to do either or.

Yeah.

Because you never know what the. How the interviewer is going to be. And at the end of the day, they're the decision makers. So you've got to make sure that they want you and they want you enough to bring you back. And I guess that goes to my point about. We talked about earlier about being the last person standing because they've got. You've got to understand what the interviewer is trying to do in terms of when you interview. They're really just a lot of. It's trying to eliminate people because they're all. It's all about time management. They may have gotten three resumes and they narrow it down to 10 people that HR is going to talk to, and they're going to talk to six and they're working. I just want to eliminate some of these people so I can just kind of focus in on these two or three candidates. So it's sometimes. Sometimes you just gotta be the last person standing and not have anything that's gonna preclude you from being the last person standing. And sometimes that's. That goes back to. You do really wanna let them lead the conversation, if possible. Cause you don't wanna upset them or dominate the conversation. Or on the other hand, if they expect you to just to have long, detailed answers for every one of their questions, you just have to roll it there.

Yeah.

If you don't get to something that you wanted to sell about yourself, that may be the case. But the end of the day, you gotta relate. That person's making the decision, not you.

Yeah. You have to let them lead. And as you say, it's actually what we call the horns and halo effect as well. Because if they focus in on something they really like about. You love their rugby. Oh, yeah, it's great.

That.

Great. That's the halo effect. And you're an angel and they love you. But then also, as you say, it might be that they hate sports. And they. So they. You start to go on about it and they're saying, actually, I'm not interested in sports at all. Oh, hang on. So back away from that. So I think it's about awareness and that active listening. And it is a lot of the things that you brought to bear on today's podcast.

So know who you're speaking with. If you're speaking with an interview process, you often speak to an HR representative. You often speak them to maybe the decision maker, your boss, and maybe the CFO kind of realize that they're all different people. They're all looking at different things. The HR person is going to be like, I'm looking for red flags where I can just eliminate this person.

Yeah.

And the CFO is looking for a person like, wait, I want a person that can be a star and I can maybe move this person throughout my organization. Whereas the treasurer person may be looking. Oh, I want someone to fill this role that could really fit in right now. So you kind of realize who you're interviewing with to kind of what they're looking for. Because they're not all looking for the same thing.

Forest, amazing chat today. Let's just up things because again, I know that you've got a hard stop any second. If we could, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you. And I think it'd be amazing for you guys to have you in their network and things. But before we do and do close off, just reflecting back over your time in treasury thus far and continuing it is, what are the key tips, bullet points, if you like, for people that you would say to people that they walk away today and they know about one.

Like I said earlier, be flexible. Absolutely, be flexible. And if your boss asks you to.

Do something, do it.

If this is going to require a move, then maybe you have to move. So be the more flexible you are, the more appealing you're going to be to people. Secondly, be sure if you need to tick the boxes, tick the box. Get what you need to get the interview. Don't try to fool yourself. So tick the boxes, tick the boxes. And lastly, network. Actively network. You should be networking right now and network people and you never know who's going to make, who's going to be that person that's going to get you that interview. That's what I would focus on. And networking is not easy, but it's something that you need to continue to focus and the higher up you get, that's the more likely way you're going to get jobs. Jobs to a network. Exactly.

Yeah. So flexibility, tick those boxes. Actively network. Not just occasionally, which you do.

Yeah, actively network.

Amazing.

And also you don't realize that you know who you're speaking with. And like you said, look, look for cues when you're interviewing because they're gonna, they're gonna lead, they're gonna lead you where you need to go and know who you're talking with. Now you interview differently between, based on who you're talking with, whether it's a CFO or like I said, the trustee person or the HR person.

Forest, thank you for your time today, sir. We, we didn't rush, it was great. It was a lovely 40 minute conversation. So this is going to be freely available when they go. Well, I'm looking forward to publishing it because this is going to be a great one. Thank you, sir. And again, we'll put Forest details in the show notes to connect with him. He's a great guy to have in your network and really enjoyed it and we'll definitely do more shows in the future with you and maybe some more variety shows and stuff. But thank you very much for your time today.

Thank you, Mike. Surely Enjoyed it.

Welcome back. Wow. We recorded that previous podcast in 2021. I'm rejoined by Forrest, which is fantastic. It was a great podcast we had back then. Obviously we covered a lot about networking, which we're going to take a bit further actually and have a bit of a further conversation. But we're rejoining forest now in 2023. So two years later, obviously post pandemic, post everything else, big inflation, lots of different things. Forrest, if you would. You're still with the same company, but how are things changed? How have things moved on with yourself? Over to you, sir.

Yeah, very similar in terms of the fact that I'm still here at treasurer at Freeport lng. Things continue to go well. One thing that I think has really evolved here is I think there's been a pretty significant shift in the way people view the workplace.

Right?

Yeah, I think we've since COVID everybody worked remotely as much as possible, certainly in the terrific functions or financial functions. So it really caused a bit of a shift, like I said, the weight that now you have to kind of look at your career because before you had so much more FaceTime, if you will, with people in the office and also quite frankly, people out of the office, because a lot of bankers and other financial professionals that would often call on you or visit your office, that was greatly reduced and it hasn't picked back up to the level it was three, four or five years ago before the pandemic. And I'm not sure it ever will because they're working remotely a little more than they used to also. So when people did come back in the office, even the bankers, there very few people who are back in five days a week. So you definitely have reduced face time with people, which really is critical in networking. You can network best face to face, that's for sure. Just because you can communicate best face to face and you can lead best face to face. And you could also, I think, convey knowledge and transport knowledge best face to face. Visual cues by people. If you're talking with them, you know how this, you know how connected they are, you're looking at them eye to eye. So I think the whole idea of networking now is probably even more important than it was pre pandemic. It's a great dynamic if you can take the lead, because like we said, like you pointed out before, networking is part of the word is work. And that's exactly what it is. So it's important that you have to realize that, hey, it's going to be an effort, it's going to be a meaningful effort. What I mean by meaningful is that it has to have some value. So there's certain things you want to get out of a network exchange, if you will, you want to build, quite frankly, just like anything else, you want to build a bit of a relationship with that person. You don't just want to, oh, I'll connect with you on LinkedIn, that's good. But it's really not the objective. You want to build up a relationship. So if that person hears of an opportunity or hears of something that you may be interested in, and it could be personal or professional that they think of you, that's what, that's what the objective is. The objective of networking is to keep your interest and your kind of goals in the forefront of that person's mind. Now, we realize that you can't have 500 people that you have in your network that you're thinking about all the time.

Yeah.

But the objective is to find out kind of the movers and shakers, if you can, and make sure that they're aware of what you're. What they're aware of you in terms of like, it's in terms of your interests, your background and things like that. And I think you have to be realistic. Just because you know someone that maybe is, let's say the. A senior VP at Google doesn't mean that they're going to recommend you for an opportunity. You still have to have the right background, the right education, the right experience, things along those lines. But it's just another avenue in terms of how you can get your name on the list. And that's all. And that's what you're looking for in network. You're looking to get your foot in the door. And whether it's an interview, something similar, that's what you're really what you're striving for. Because after that, it's really up to you. There's only so much the network can do.

And you said forest, just to jump in there. So how do people then add value through this network? It's, as you said, it's not just about connecting. That's a good first step. Connect someone over LinkedIn. Exactly as you say. I've done a number of conferences. When I say to the people, don't just say, oh, meet you at this conference.

Boom.

No talk about what you talked about or what you had in common or why you would add value to having them in your network and them having you in their network. It's an equal thing. It's back and Forth.

Yeah.

Quid cross row. Absolutely.

But so how would you then aside from that, how do you go to the next stage? Because I know you're a great network. How do you go to the next stage?

I think you. There's a couple things. First of all, I think you have to make it regular. Right? You can't just contact them when you need them or when you want to talk to them. Reach out on a quarterly basis or a semiannual basis and you can't have to manage that. Anything else. You don't want to bug them every month because then it's okay. This guy's just here to try to build his network and things like that. You want to make it a little more of a relationship focus so you reach out periodically. And I don't know what that is. In other words, that you can say, oh, I contact every quarter. I mean, it's not every month, but it's not every two or three years either. It's something less than that.

Balance.

Yeah. And everybody has to be. Everybody likes to be contacted in a different way. Some people don't mind a phone call. Some people hate phone call. A text or some people or an email. I think you kind of have to kind of read the person to see how they like to be. How I like to. They like to communicate with you. Everybody's a little different. But again, look for cues that you know, that they locate some people. I'm just not going to respond to a text from someone, but that'd be. Or, hey, don't call me, don't call me. That's for my emergency type things. Whereas, let's face it, networking isn't usually an emergency. So I think you have to kind of look at that in terms of how you're going to communicate with this person and try to make sure. And I tell this to people that everybody, from children to mentors to relatives, to whomever, if you want someone to do something, make it easy for them. So if you want to connect with someone on a network and make it easy for them, offer them something. Keep before you're about to reach out to, let's say, Jane Doe, you'll look at Jane Doe's background, make sure you familiarize yourself with her to say, hey, she's in the tech industry. She may be interested in this treasury opportunity that I heard of at a tech company. Right. You want to give something and you want to get something.

Put yourself in that shoes.

Yeah, it's something important in networking. Yes. It. There's definitely a personal interest make it something that's value to both parties if you can. If you can. And this is one of the things also function.

This is one of the things that both Forrest and I we spoke before the show. We had a pre podcast the other day, the Catch up, which was fantastic. But as you and I talked about one of the things, the way that we try and add value and someone said to me, you're a recruiter, so yeah, but you might, if we're a recruiter, you might only speak to us once in three years. So how do we then add value along that chain? And one of the ways that we do that is with you as treasury professionals is do the podcast, do the salary survey running the next quarterly one. We've got articles coming out with the AFP about hybrid working. I'm going to be seeing hopefully for us at some conferences coming up and things. Adding value is what it's about. By doing that, it comes back around, paying it forward. I know you talked to me about this as well because you're massive believer in this. You're one of the best networkers I think I've seen and you and I talked about this. Is that just in you or why?

No, it's not. I had a. One of my bosses was the best networker I ever heard and he was ever really dealt with. He was the one who just always reach out to people. Even people that like, even let's say if you were in a particular city and your job role was let's say X, let's say you're a treasurer or you could be anybody, be in any role and you're aware of someone moving into your city that's at your same role. You reach out to them. He would do something like that. You reach out to a new treasurer that maybe moved into Houston and asked me, asking me how are things are going to be part of the group. Very proactive. I think you have to look at it like it's really a management of the process of networking. What are you trying to. What are you trying to do when you're trying to add people all the time? You're trying to. If people do drop off right, people retire and step back from the profession. So you kind of have to look at why I gotta be cultivating new individuals all the time. All the time. And it's again, it's not just like Treasury's a little bit unique and quite really good in a way that it's not just other treasury people. Bankers are a great source of treasury network because they're visiting so many companies and they're sometimes aware of vacancies or opportunities before they're public. I did get one opportunity, one job when I a banker that I knew but really didn't know that well, he told me of a company, hey, they're looking for a treasurer. I said, I know people over there. And one thing led to another and I ended up working with them on a contract basis for about six months. So the point being is it's not just people in your profession, it's people that may be aware of opportunities in your profession.

I just wanted to go back to something also you mentioned there we talked about hybrid working from home and these people thing as well as networking. You're obviously you're running a team and hybrid and everything else. How would you say that hybrid working from home has changed corporate treasury, the world of treasury for you as a treasurer, is it easier, harder whenever. Because now everybody's in the office two or three days a week. Great. Do all this. How do you organize it? What are your recommendations to people?

My recommendations are you have to focus more now on employee development. Yep. Both in terms of management skills, their management skills and knowledge transfer because it's much easier to develop employees and develop talent needed on a face to face basis. I think the biggest issue with people going forward is it's much harder to develop people and mentor people remotely. And it's not just true, it's treasury. That's true in academia too. Right. Where all sorts of studies have done where people are more effective when they're in the classroom. And I go back to even when I was going to school, the closer I was to the front of the class, the better I seemed to do. Because you're focused. Right. You're engaged and you. And like I said, there's a lot of visual cues when you're discussing things with people. You can tell maybe they're not quite getting this, whereas if remotely you can send them email. You understand what we're talking about? Oh, response. Yes, I do. But if you're talking with them and you're. And you can say yes they do, but maybe they don't understand everything. So I think the biggest difference, really an obligation of management and really not management just in your field and maybe like human resources is the challenge that we're going to have going forward with everybody working remotely. But is it 50% of the time or whatever you want to say to develop people, develop that and make them feel part of the corporate culture? Because that's another issue.

Right.

Every, every company has a corporate culture that they want, that they want to promote and develop. It's much harder to develop and develop that culture and ingrain that culture when people are remote. It's just that simple. So I think you have to make more effort along those lines to make them feel part of the team. Especially if you've got some people working. Right. Maybe you work at some people Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and some people working Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. There's only one day maybe when the whole team's together.

Yeah.

So you have to be very conscious of that day and very efficient with that day just to really, to develop, whether it's cross training, whether it's camaraderie, you just have less opportunity to develop that with your team. Right, yeah. And so I think that's a big change. That's a big change and I don't think it's going away, Mike. I think there's now really a expectation amongst workers that they can work remotely a good portion of the time. And quite frankly, people are looking at jobs that the job wants them there four or five days a week. It's much less appealing to a lot of people.

Yeah, I think, yeah, that's gone away, really.

Yeah. And some people are really almost demanding. Why I want to work virtually remote all the time. Yeah, I get the pluses for sure and I certainly have taken advantage of those. But us as managers and mentors, we've got to do extra effort to develop those people.

I think in different finance disciplines, it can work better if it's more rule based, if it's more tax, sometimes that lends itself a little bit. But treasury by its very nature is a real social discipline. FP&A as well.

The one big thing about treasury compared to the other financial disciplines, Michael, is if you're an FPA or budgeting or accounting, most of your focus is internal. You're dealing with people in the office, whereas Treasury. Half of our dealings are people outside the office anyway. Bankers and other financial institutions, it's a little different than most other financial disciplines. So we have some experience working, if you want, say non. Face to face with bankers and things like that. But again, that's important relationship that most treasurers manage, the banking and financial institution, institutional relationship. And the fact that we're in the office less, they're in the office less, we're physically, we physically see them less. Yeah, fair enough.

Now, obviously this is an update update episode. We've already given people amazing value before the final takeaways from today's show and the catch up. We've touched on their network, we touched on working from home. Anything else you think that the treasury professionals listening to today need to be thinking about themselves and their careers? What are your thoughts?

Okay, I'm going to be a little counterculture here. I know. Big buzz here is artificial intelligence.

Yep.

While that is coming, we're not going to be replaced by community computers next year. This is going to be an evolution that'll take decades. Yeah. Don't run out and think that AI is going to take over the world here. It's just there's so many variables involved and things change. You're right. Some of the more routine professions or procedural type activities, whether you're booking, journal entry or something like that, I think you'll see a lot of gains in AI. But it's going to take so long. It's going to take so long. So don't be worried about AI taking away your job right away. I would really more focus on, hey, let's look at my current job and how can I excel in that and move up in my career. Let's focus on, let's focus on some things that we can control, we can govern as opposed to being too worried about, oh my gosh, is my job going away because of artificial intelligence?

That's a long time coming.

And so focus on, like we talked about some basics. Right. Focus on networking and have a bit of a plan too as to what you want to do in your career. And when I say a bit of a plan because we can't predict the future, sometimes you really, you don't know where you're headed. But have an idea of what you want to be and make people aware of that idea. That's important. That's what a lot of people think that oh my, my boss or VP of HR is, has an idea of what they want to do for my career development. They might and they might not make it pretty clear and make it known what your interests are and whether it could be transferring departments. You'd be going over FPA or County or something like that. Let the VP of or whomever know that. Let the controller know that. So I think it's important that people are aware of, of your career path in your organization. And I think that's one thing that is lacking out there. People expect that. Oh they, people know I want to be promoted. That's too way too generic.

Like you have to be more specific.

I have an interest in, I really have this interest in financial planning and budgeting. Make the right people aware of that. It's even more critical if you're working remotely because you're going to see them less make a point when you are in the office to cultivate those relationships.

Amazing. So Forest, thank you very much for rejoining us on the show. Loads of value from everyone and now they get to see us in real life.

There you go.

There you go. It's been amazing to catch up and looking forward to actually seeing you and literally being face to face and networking properly.

Yes, great. And yes it is. And while I won't be out in San Diego, I'll make sure that the Ascent Petrov, who is my right hand man is out there and he'll look you up.

Be fantastic. Thank you sir.

Thanks Mike. Have a great rest of summer and stay cool.

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