Pointers for Growth Within Treasury with Paul Hussey

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show, I'm deluded. Delighted to be joined by a really good friend of mine, Paul Hussey, the Director of treasury at Sabic. Now Sabic is a global leader in chemicals headquartered in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. From making cars and planes more fuel efficient to helping conserve the world's water supplies. Colorful smartphone cases. Right the way through chemicals is their business. 33,000 employees globally operating in 50 countries. And I'm delighted to say that I placed Paul there a number of years ago. And we are, you know, we've been very much involved, involved with building up the group globally. So, you know, some of the questions I asked Paul, it's a bit weird because I know all the answers, but we, as always, it's for you guys listening today that are gonna, you're gonna get some amazing insights from Mr. Hussey. Paul, take us back, if you would, to the beginning of your career and how you first, well, first started in finance and then he's just got the wonderful world of treasury, although it was in banking, but we won't hold that against you, sir. Over to you.

Thanks Mike. Delighted to have the podcast today. Pleasure to talk to you and to anybody who will listen into this. Yeah, it's an interesting journey, Mike. I guess from an early age I always wanted to be an accountant. Don't ask me why. I think it was more family relationships and yeah, family members who were, who were in accountancy. So I qualified accounting and finance degree in Dublin City University, then went on and did the professional exams and accountancy and I ended up first in the central bank and that's how I ended up in banking, which I was kind of going, okay, this is a bit unusual but yeah, let's see how it goes. So really that started at Mike, as regards an understanding, like at 17, 18 years of age I actually had a really good leading search. It's equivalent BA levels in the uk. The bank had approached me and said, would you come in? So I did accounting and finance. Even though it was a full time course, I never, over three years, I never went to one lecture because I was working in the central bank. And at 17, 18 years of age it was like, good, goodness, what is this? What am I doing? But it gave Me an appetite and understanding of the future career. Now at 17, 18, I had no idea. It was like my interest was golf, soccer, rugby, Duran Duran, U2, you name it. I didn't have any future mapping or where I wanted to go, but deep down it actually gave me the ability to look at banking. Is this for me? You know, I stayed there and then I moved to bank of Ireland, ended up in bank of Ireland's treasury, which previously was known as the Investment bank of Ireland, you know, corporate finance and the pure treasury side. And that's really where I started after four years in, in the Central bank, three, four years in in bank of Ireland. That stage I'd qualified and everything and anything I was going to do professionally. And that's how my career started. Mike. So started in banking, then moved into treasury, moved back into banking, moved into fund management, move into banking and then ended up in corporate treasury really for the last 10 or 12 years. So that's been the journey.

And Paul, on part of that, when you then did the bank of Ireland, we had Sean o' Connor from Indeed on the show recently, very similar background. Actually this, you know, did the treasury accounting piece because we sort of joked on the show that every treasurer should do their stint in the sort of middle back office, you know, middle office. But really, because then when you're passing down, even if you're right at the top table, as you guys are, you then understand what you're doing lower down. It gives you the understanding the mechanics of things, you know, that was a good start for you. And then you sort of grew and talk us through the changes from there and how you sort of built on that foundation, as it were.

Yeah, Mike, you know, it's a great point. Like I ended up, I spent a couple of years in Danske bank as head of institutional banking, come back about 12 years ago and for me that was the, the foundation of moving into a comp where I was for 10 years. And then it's sabic. Having the background in banking is extremely helpful in the treasury world. You understand products, you understand simple things like capital weighting. How does that work for a bank? If you're looking for revolving credit facility, you're looking for different type of credit facilities, be the committed, uncommitted, you're looking at trade finance products, you're looking at foreign exchange. How does a bank look at this? Because there is a few out there in the corporate world that's an endless pot of cash from the banks to fund, whether it's A, B or C corporate Obviously that's not the case. So having that inside knowledge and for myself working with some of the largest institutions and corporates when I was in Danske and prior to that when I was in a couple of other banks, it gives you that appetite and understanding that you're talking the same message as your corporate banker when he or she reaches out to you or you reach out to them about a facility, because it does help. Because the lack of understanding if you are not in the inner circle is a fairly big thing.

And so then talk us through the moves as you then sort of really got more into core corporate treasury and made that transition over because, you know, we got some great moves and, you know, and that's what I want the listeners to hear sort of thing. So talk us through.

Sure. Well, the one thing is, Mike, I've been very lucky. I've worked all over the world and that's a huge plus. So I spent a huge amount of time in the States, worked in Luxembourg, worked in Switzerland, worked in London, a lot of time in Singapore and then a lot of time in the Middle East. So looking at that treasury in its essence, what is Treasury? It's cash. We can put all sorts of bells and whistles around it, we can talk about embedded derivatives, we can talk about all the sexy stuff, but it's all about cash. Where's the cash? How do I manage the cash, what cash do I need and how am I going to utilize it? Whether that's for return investment on any CapEx program, or it's actually looking at simple structures. For me, whether I was working in Tyco, spent a lot of time in the States, it was in Luxembourg, Switzerland, as I said, I was in Dublin, obviously for a lot. For a lot of the time as well. Or whether it was a comp or ended up in Abu Dhabi and Dubai for six years, whether it's sabic, now that I'm in Riyadh, with a large international presence, it's pulling all that together, the international experience. I think the one thing I'd say to any of your listeners is paramount. It's the understanding of the different mechanisms and how culturally the banking system will work in these jurisdictions. The other thing I'd say, Mike, is to actually have a wide remit within Treasury. I spent a lot of time in corporate finance. I spent a lot of time in legal and general bearings and fund management when I was in London. Now in sabic, I'm over cash management and operations and having the front office, middle office, back office understanding everything goes together, People Would say to me, oh, back office, what you want anything to do with that? That's the lifeblood of where treasury is, the activities, it's the settlement, it's the process, it's the confirmation. The front office is obviously a lot of people want to do the front office but if I look at the three of them together, front, middle and back, it's basically a marriage between the three of them and there should be no discrepancy or there should be no lack of understanding of what treasury is about across those three areas. So international experience, understanding the products obviously front, middle and back office is a key determinant for anybody to, to understand and grow within treasure.

And so just give us a quick run through if you would because you know, you gave a very good summary, you know, before getting to your latest role. But so you were working Tyco Electronics, then you did your Dansker and then you did AECOM for 10 years. And I think what's key there I just wanted to bring out is the differences between the industries as such. So Tyco Electronics later years became part of Johnson Controls. But you know, what was that like for you treasury wise? And one, you know, we don't need to go into massive detail but it's like someone's listening say oh actually so you know, what did, what did that give you? What did Tyco give you? Treasury wise?

Yeah, so Tyco, when I joined Tyco in the early 2000s, Mike, it was such an interesting company to join. You know we absolutely huge company, over 2,000 legal entities, 288,000 employees. Like say for example in Germany alone with 110 different legal entities just in one country. But when I joined Tyco was going through huge change. There was issues within Tyco which was part of the determining factor with a couple of other companies like WorldCom that brought Sarbanes Oxley into play. So the whole world changed on its head. It was like later in my banking career when the whole issue of KYC, AML and compliance came in. But what Tyco, WorldCom, etcetera went through in the early 2000s brought Sarbanes Oxley in. I brought a better, much larger understanding of process controls, the ability for leadership, CFOs, CEOs to understand that the controls that were inherent in the business was a huge factor within treasury. Because obviously treasury, we managed the cash, we managed the balance sheet, we managed capital structures. For me in Tyco, it was this massive, extremely well run, internationally focused conglomerate that we split in 2006 and seven into Tyco Electronics. Into Tyco Healthcare, which was Covidian and then has moved on again into what's left to Tyco. So you know, working in that. And in 2006, 7 it took us a year, we did the largest demerger, we were a $45 billion company and we demerged the whole thing into the three standalone entities. So, you know, every company has its own identity and is different but the core relationship is that the underly line essence of treasury is similar. It all goes back to one thing. It's, you know, where's the cash? How do we get my hands on the cash? What cash do I need? And this is front, middle and back office. Again, Mike, to what I went back earlier. It's the marriage and the cooperation between the teams to actually drive the business forward. And I think the one thing I saw in Tyco and I saw on AECOM and I'm seeing in Sabic now is the relationship between the business and Treasury. If I go back to when I started my career, treasury was a fairly simple outfit but really it has to be a business partner with the business. It has to be there. It has to understand what the business is doing. The business needs to understand what treasury is doing. But you're not sitting in treasury on your corporate high table shouting down directions. There has to be that relationship for this to work. This marriage will only work where the two units, the three units within treasury and the two units within corporate. Corporate treasury and the business are one.

So I recently spoke to Claudio Di Molli at the igt, the sort of gaming group and things and he said very similar stuff to you but one of the things he talked about and you just touched on it there was about the evolution of the role of the Treasurer or head of treasury, whatever it might be. And I'm going to bring that into your experience at AECOM if I could. Because then as you say, and he was talking about the what he'd seen because he's sort of straddled like yourself, the sort of European treasurer role and being based there where treasury is a very much a support function and it's very, you know, a lot of internal focus and everything else. But actually in the US and when he was there he said, oh, it's more of an investor relations, a much more external focus role. And you talked about the combination of both and obviously, you know, you encompass both and enjoy it and will come to your current role. But when you then moved, you then moved through Danske bank and then you joined aecom, what was that like? So you know, been with electronics group, done this big massive demerger. You then done some banking again, gone back to that because you knew it so well. But how come then the move back into, you know, corporate and what did AECOM do? You know, I know, obviously, but other people listening today.

Yeah, aecom, another fantastic company, extremely well run, excellent management. Mike where the one thing we grew by acquisition. When I joined AECOM in December 2009, we were 5.1 billion turnover. When I left AECOM nearly 10 years later after a six year stint in the Middle east, we were just over $20 billion company and we grew by acquisition. We made a lot of acquisitions in the area we were in. AECOM is one of the largest, if not the largest design houses in the world. At one stage we had close 80, 90,000 professionals in the engineering, architecture, construction, design focus. So you know, we would, we would, in aecom, it was like building multi billion dollar infrastructure programs. When I say building, I mean, you know, from design through to construction supervision, all the, all the way up working with, you know, contractors to actually build a project which could be, you know, could be rail, could be airports, could be ports, it could be, you know, the huge infrastructure projects is what we specialized in. So you know, that in itself it was totally different than Tyco. Tyco was electronics, Tyco was healthcare, Tyco was security, like an ADT or sensomatic. ACOM was infrastructure. AECOM is different in the sense that you'd be working on a project and then you move on to something else. It was more consultancy based and then Tyco and obviously totally different again than Sabic that we can get onto. But again it goes back to it is that treasury in itself, Mike? It's keeping it simple and it's keeping, it's keeping a focus on what matters to the cfo, to the CEO, to leadership. Again, it goes back to cash, it goes back to business partnering, it goes back to looking at the correct products and projects that work for treasury to keep it as simple as we possibly can. Every company is different. We can talk about a multitude of companies, Mike, but it comes back to one thing. Corporate treasury within A, B or C should have the same focus. The business model is totally different, but it comes back to the same thing. Cash, cash and cash.

And when you joined aecom, was it very much that, you know, again I want to get onto your current role and things and some of the stuff you've done with Sabic and stuff. But when you join aecom, was treasury at the heart of things or Was it a support function? What was the ethos there sort of thing when you joined?

Yeah, very much the heart of things, Mike, you know, run slightly different than other corporates or other companies I have been in. Obviously we were head office was in Los Angeles. We had Dublin, we had other satellite offices, treasury offices for tax reasons and for structuring reasons. But it was, you know, the main team internationally was run out of Dublin. We had a small treasury team, but we were very, very strong treasury team. And you know, one of my colleagues now is that I worked with is now the group treasurer of Ryanair. Everybody knows Ryanair, you know, one of the most successful Carline companies in the world. So there was a great ability to hire and retain talent, work with head office, spend a lot of time with head office. You know, we structured programs and projects together within aecom. But the thing was there was a great correlation between the different teams, as I say front, middle and back office. And that was slightly structured differently than what we had in Tyco and certainly what I have in Sabic. But all for the good, Mike.

So talk us through then, you know, you got placed by me at the group and Sabic, so talk us through your role there and you know, know, what was it like, you know, and also, you know, maybe we touched on the fact that you're based in Riyadh, you know, so it's really treasury has taken you around the world and you really embrace that throughout your career. Talk us through that.

I moved to Riyadh literally nearly a year ago when I took the job, Mike, with Sabic obviously Covid had hit. I couldn't get to Riyadh. I was in Dublin, which was great. I was with the family. And then the 2nd of December last year I moved over to Riyadh. You know, Sabic, obviously it's an extremely successful, extremely well known company brand wise, where we're number two globally in the chemical market. We got taken over in October last year by Aramco. We were previously 70% owned by PIF, which is the public investment fund of Saudi Arabia, the sovereign wealth fund. Then Aramco came in and bought the 70% stake. There's a really good fit between Aramco, obviously the world's largest oil company and Sabic. You know, we'd be number four, number five globally in the chemicals market. And looking at the synergies between Saudi Aramco and ourselves is an absolutely great fit. So, you know, with that, Mike, you know, we're working closely with Aramco to grow market share within different jurisdictions. Sabic, while we're Riyadh based, we have, you know, obviously we're very large in Asia. We have our hub for capital, Sabic Capital One, Sabi Capital Two, which is the rest of the world, based out of the Netherlands. We have a very strong global treasury team and we're going through transformation at the moment because we're looking at how we can even make it better. I think this is one of the things for treasury, it's that you can never stand still. You need to look at is the program and is the team and is the structure correct? And we're looking at that in Sabic at the moment. Through yourself, we hired an extremely strong group treasurer in Rob Farrow, who came into us just over a year ago. And you know, being based in Riyadh, I had worked in Riyadh previously. I was on common from AECOM to work with parts of the Saudi government, Saudi customs, the national center for Privatization, because I had special re specialized in structured finance, PPP and PFI in the last two, three years in aecom, looking at major programs and actually undertaking to assist our client base putting these structural financing initiatives in place. So Riyadh is a wonderful place. It's changed so much. It's a pleasure to be here, Mike. You know, people look at Riyadh and they kind of go, oh, well, Riyadh. All I could say to any audience or anybody listening in is that it's so progressive under the Crown Prince, it's making a huge initiative to change. It's going to be the epicenter of the financial worlds moving forward in the Middle East. So really, Riyadh has a huge amount of benefits. You know, a lot of the top banks are moving here or have already been here, have already moved here. So all in all, Mike, a really good move. Very progressive. And working for Sabic with the Aramco backing, it's been good. Good.

So there are a number of other people out there that will have made similar moves. You know, they've joined a global group, if you like, and they've. They want, as you say, Treasury's got to move on. But hang on, you're not a little cog, but, you know, you have the big mega majors, you know, the shells, the big, big corporates like yourselves, you know, big sometimes when. And again, I, I know the answer to this because when I was talking to people about, you know, the role and I told you about this, but also some of the other people, you know, they were saying, oh, the role, you know, is. It is it big enough, am I going to be able to make change? And I said, look, if you want change, this is the place to be. You know that it's literally every day is different and changing. Rather than just come in, same desk and you'll be doing the same job in a year's time. How do you, as, you know, the sort of treasury director sort of lead that if you like and coach those guys, as you say, you got the support of Rob. But how do you go out with that is, you know, how do you sell it, that dream to the. That dream to the team, as it.

Were, in Sabic, I'm very lucky. I have a really, really strong team. You know, myself and Rob are blessed with the people that we have working with us, you know, all over the globe. And it's really, it's synergizing that, Mike, into what, what is our focus? What is our vision? What is our future? What is our business plan? What is our capex undertaking? What is our growth? And these are the things that we look at as a team and, you know, we want to. If I go back to where treasury was 15, 20, 25 years ago, whatever it was simple stuff. It was excess cash placing it on deposits now, it's like, well, is the cash in the right jurisdiction? It's working with our colleagues in tax, it's working with our colleagues in legal. It's making sure that the dividend upstream gets to the right place, that the cash can be utilized. We don't have trapped cash. We have a lot of cash within Sabic, we have a lot of cash within Saudi Aramco, and it's making cash sure that it's in the right jurisdiction, that we can actually get our hands on it. It's not deemed trap cash, it's not deemed cash that we have tax considerations or legal or regulatory considerations around. So this is part of the transformation program that we're looking at that's been led by Rob, myself and the CFO Tim leville, who joined us about three years ago from Chevron to look at the mechanism of how we can get our hands on the cash today, tomorrow, with the right structure, be that intercompany or external, that it flows to the right location that we can use this immediately. So it's a big undertaking. But I kind of give an analogy. It's like a doctor, a doctor cannot just sit still and kind of go right. I never need to look at the latest medical journal or the latest drugs that are out there. It's the same within Treasury. You can Never stand still, whether it's regulations change within China, whether it's mechanisms within treasury that are constantly changing. So it's an evolving career for anybody that wants to join Treasury. The treasury today will be totally different to treasury in 10 or 15 years time, not only due to regulations, but through to banking requirements, also through to automation. So it's evolving, Mike. And that's the great thing about treasury, it never stands still.

And you talk there about the global nature of it and you've got so much stuff coming at you, you know, and I've talked sometimes about CFOs pushing their treasurer, you know, treasury team to sort of look at all this, say, look, can you just be the pathfinder for me? Look at the future. Where's treasury going and where's finance going? Can you look at this and blockchain and all these different technologies and lots of different things, but where you're sitting there and you've got. It's fantastic. You described it very well, that about cash being at the core of things and that flow. How does it come in, is it handled, how does it come out? Everything else. So that's there. But then when you've got all these different priorities and again, this is a bit of, sort of the educational aspect of the podcast is if someone else is listening today and they're, you know, they've just been promoted to global treasurer position and, you know, with a remit like yourself, where you really, and, you know, you and I talk about this, that, you know, I'll be helping you do stuff in the Netherlands or do stuff in the US or do stuff in, back in Riyadh. And it really is that global nature that's brilliant, but it's a bit head spinning. Ish. You're just there going, well, how do you prioritize? Is it just you look to the CFO and Rob the treasurer and say, right, what's next, fellas? Or is it, you know, how do you then as a treasurer, you know, volunteer stuff? What's, what's your driver?

Yeah, it is about priorities, Mike. It's not like, you know, one of my colleagues in Singapore is working on a large global blockchain initiative for examp. And that's something that's front and foremost of our mind. You know, myself and Rob and the team are, we're looking at the structures with our tax colleagues. Is it optimal? Is it still fit for purpose? We think the answer is yes. But, you know, this is a continuing understanding and mechanism again of how we get, how we, how we get Cash back. It was like when I, if I go back to aecom, you know, totally different company because like obviously SABIC has a very strong credit rating that is underpinned as well by the sovereign sovereign rating of Saudi Arabia. We had a lesser credit rating in aecom but it was still a very strong investment grade rating. But for us, because we were doing so much international work and DSO was a huge issue for us, it was evolving to kind of go well how can we get our cash quicker? And what we initiated was receivables purchase agreements with a number of our international banks that we could actually sell our receivables, both work in progress and accounts receivable to generate cash on a quick basis. That was a huge plus for us. SABIC is different because you know, we have a lot of cash but the cash is all over the globe, Mike, so it's getting it back to center. You know, here in Saudi Arabia there is a program that the Crown Prince launched about, you know, five, six months ago called the Sharik program where there will be massive investment in the Saudi economy. So we need cashier rather than internationally. But then on an international basis we have huge growth aspirations in different jurisdictions where there'll be massive potential capex spend. Again, it's making sure that we're totally in sync whether it's the CFO team, the FP and a team ourselves to understand the future. And you're right, Mike, I look at this at times and it is a bit head spinning but again it's about priorities and it's turning into being a bit of a Mystic Meg for people who don't know Mystic Meg, she's somebody in the UK that kind of tries to understand.

Yeah.

Where you know, how the lotto numbers will come out on a Saturday and a Wednesday. So it's having that approach to look to the future, not stay still and really understand the business model. Because if you're in a growth phase against if you're in a cash crisis phase, it's a different requirement but it's looking 6, 12, 18, 24 months out, Mike, to understand where you're going to position your priorities and the team and the products and the banks and even aligned to that, if I look at where I think the global treasury market is going, the whole renewable and green initiatives is going to take center stage moving forward. Whether it's green RCFs, green bonds, looking at green project finance funding requirements. This is the next generation and this is where we absolutely have to put our time and understanding with the banks because it Goes back to what I said earlier. The old way was you get a bank facility, your five year rcf. Now the companies have to look at how can I do this on a green renewable basis? This is the future of treasury, it's a new paradigm. Mike. If I actually take GreenSpan's Commons from 12 or 15 years ago, you know, we had a new paradigm as regards low inflation. Now we're looking at a mechanism of a new paradigm for treasury that we can sit still. We need to look at the products and the projects and the understanding out there of where the funding sources will come from and actually utilize them on a global basis.

A lot of the work that I've done with Paul globally has been about the people, you know, has been about getting great treasury professionals. And that is from way back, as I said in Saudi through Netherlands, where you have a big center there, and also over in the US with the lovely Michelle and stuff. And what I was going to say is, so you are a globe as well as, you know, on the sideline, you do treasury and the rest of it. You're a global people manager. You know, you're dealing with all these different cultures, different peoples and stuff like that. How do you do it? You know, what are your tips? Again, this is someone who's maybe earlier on in their careers, they might be first starting managing someone or maybe they're a global treasurer and they go, do you know what? The one thing I haven't been trained on is managing people. Now you do it brilliantly and that's without blowing too much smoke up your behind. But it's true, you know, how do you do it? What's your ethos or what the tips you'd give for people before we, you know, go to towards the end of the show yet we're not quite there.

Yes, sure, Mike, it's very simple. Every one of my colleagues, I work in a flat structure. You may have a title like I was vice president within a com director here, but I'm part of the team. In other words, we work together, whether it's the team the Netherlands, whether it's the team in Singapore, whether it's the team in Houston, whether somebody's an analyst or a senior analyst. It's respect is that I learn off my colleagues every day of the week. I hope they learn off me. And together, by learning and having the vision and the focus, we succeed. And that's for me, people management is actually more important than anything. You know, we can talk about green bonds, we can talk about this structure or that structure, it's having that team gel together. Like Covid's been a disaster because I couldn't. I couldn't get over. When I joined SABIC, I couldn't get over here till December 2020. So, you know, seven, eight months in Dublin. But the minute I could get over, I was on the first plane over. It was the same, you know, I've been over in Amsterdam twice now in the last. The last couple of months for, you know, a week, 10 days at a time, spending time with the guys, looking, where are we going? What do we want to achieve? What's our priorities? What are we turning on our heads? How are we going to be successful? I remember currency of AECOM five or six years ago, gave me great advice. Paul. It's all about delivery and it's all about hitting the solution. And that's why I like to work with the team. I got that from the currency. He was the CFO of AECOM at the time. He's now the CEO. Brilliant guy. And it was that focus that I got from him. We can talk, Mike, and we can, you know, I'm Irish, I can. Jeez, I can talk till the cows come up. But it's about delivery. It's all about delivery. And that delivery is what we need as a team, what the Chief Financial Officer needs, what the Board of directors needs, what the CEO needs. And having that gel with the team is paramount. There's nothing as important if you're not with your team, it falls apart. If you bring your team on the journey, you succeed. And as I said, I see John now as group treasurer, Ryanair. What a success story. John joined me as a manager in aecom. And then, you know, six, seven years later, John is a vice president with an acom. And then a year later, John is the group Trojan Reiner. And that's my philosophy, is to bring people on the journey. You know, I'm not the big boss, I'm not the little boss, I'm not any boss. We're a team.

And with the different cultures, you know, each is different, you know, you know, the way of things happening. And, you know, I found this when recruiting. Recruiting in the US is so very different to recruiting in Europe. And it's different. There's commonalities, of course, but there's massive differences in recruiting into, you know, into Saudi. How would you, when you're looking at those people before we do, close the show and we'll come to the top tips in a minute and things like that. But how do you think of that. How do you do that, Mike?

It's very simple. Like if I'm hiring Ali, that's on my team, or I'm hiring Michelle or I'm hiring Sylvia in Singapore, I just, I look at the person, can I get on with the person, can we work together? You know, can we drive the business forward? Can we be successful in Treasury? It's all about learning as well, is to bring the guys on the learning curve, is to be open, is to be frank, is to be honest and basically move forward together as a team. Like, it's as simple as that. You know, whether somebody is local in Saudi Arabia or is Irish like me, or is from Singapore like Sylvia, it makes no difference to me. It's that we can work together as a team. You know, culturally, yes, we need to be very aware, we need to understand the differences. But it's having this bond with the team that we can drive forward. Because if there's respect from me to the guys, I'm hoping there'll be respect from the guys back to me. And that's my philosophy, give it out.

And it comes back and stuff. So, right, we will put Paul's LinkedIn details. It's not the biggest profile on there, but it's a good profile. He's a great guy to have in your network. So we'll put that in the show notes so people can connect to you and have you, you know, because they will want to. After this, there'll be a flood of people. But that aside, what would you close the show with today? So again, the people listening, I mean, you've given, you know, someone should have been scribbling and this is. Sometimes I've had it with people said, yeah, I've had to go back to the office and that tip, that tip actually has something. What are the closing tips you would give to today's show for someone to take away with them?

Yeah, sure, Mike. I think there was always this thing about, oh, if you work in the back office, you're not as important as somebody who works in the middle office and you're not as important as somebody who works in the front office. Absolute nonsense. The three different areas of treasury, if I look at the front office, we have our corporate finance team, we have our cash management team and we have our project finance team. Hugely important. But as is the back office and to the whole evolution of treasury is that everybody is a seasoned professional, everybody understands. And for me, people in treasury need to understand the whole aspect and the whole remit of Treasury. Let me put it this way, Mike, you can't drive a car without an engine. And the whole treasury operations side of back office, middle office, whatever is every bit as important as what we do in the front office. Be that corporate finance, or we call it finance strategy and advisory. In Sabic, we have cash management, we have project finance. So if anybody gets to start, it's a great start. Whether you're in any of the front office roles, the middle office roles, the back office roles. The next point is to have the international experience. I've been lucky enough as I've worked all over the world. That's given me a cultural awareness of working with colleagues. That's also given me a different understanding of banking requirements and what's needed, regulatory requirements, et cetera. Number two, the third thing is to be open to change, is constantly be looking not over your shoulder. What we did in the past, but what are we going to do in the future. We talked to Mike about the green initiatives on funding. You look at where project finance is going into the next five or 10 years, that's going to be a massive evolution. We look at cash management structures, working with our colleagues in tax. They're going to change because they never stand still. In summary, international experience, if it's open to anybody, it's a huge plus to have working in different parts of treasury front, middle, back office. Huge part to have and be open to change and have a transformational mindset. The treasury today was certainly not a treasury 15 years ago and certainly won't be the treasury of five or 10 years. So that's it in total, Mike, those three, that's what I've worked on. That's been my MO, modus operandi and that's what I've try to achieve. I'm not saying, you know, it's always worked, but that's been the front and foremost of my mind.

Amazing, guys. As I say, we'll put Paul's details in the show notes so definitely connect to him. He's an amazing guy to have any network and all the ruins me say sir is gonna wait to see you soon and thanks very much for today's episode.

Thanks, Mike.

Thank you, sir.

Really enjoyed it. Thanks very much. Cheers.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce. Every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.