Predicting the Future of Treasury with Jean Furter

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Jean Furter, the treasurer at Poly. Part of HP's portfolio of hybrid work solutions, Poly creates premium audio and video products so you can have your best meeting anywhere, anytime, every time. But as an experienced treasury professional, John and I, we, we had a conversation the other day and I was like, wow, this is going to be great because he's got some really good views on treasury, he's had an in depth career for many, many years. Really enjoyed our conversation the other day and so what we're gonna do is cover John's experience, bring it up to date. I think we're going to get so much into the detail because we were talking the other day that you've, you know, contributed NOI Group and lots of other networking groups as well. I think there's lots of lessons that people can get from treasury, from yourself, about Treasury. So I'm really looking forward to this episode. So if you would, sir, we're going to go right back to the beginning of your career as we do each and every week. Can you take us back to the beginning of your journey and how you first discovered finance and then Treasury? Over to you.

Firstly, Mike, thank you for inviting me on your podcast. I did mention to you that I really enjoyed listening to this podcast and the fact that takes time, but there is a lot of valuable information. I think it's a great podcast. So anyway, let me start with the beginning of my career. The first thing is, as you can hear from my accent, is I was born and raised in the French part of Switzerland and I started my career in Geneva. I first worked for an accounting firm for about a year and then I had the opportunity to work for a company called asea, which later merged with Brown Bovary to become the giant industrial conglomerate abb. But first I worked for the Swedish financing arm in Geneva and it was super interesting because they had finance as a business segment in their business, aside from power plants and all that kind of stuff. And we had to generate profit so we had to be profitable and we were competing with banks, so we were offering treasury services to subsidiaries and the subsidiaries were not forced to work with us. So it was super interesting experience. So I started to work there and Then ASEA merged with Bram Bovary. I moved to Zurich, the German part of Switzerland, and there I worked for the new newly formed ABB in the treasury area. And it was a great experience in terms of how to navigate a merger. I was Swiss, but I was originally from the 3D part of the company. So I had to, you know, negotiate and be quite diplomatic in my way of handling my work. But it was super interesting, cash management, all the basics of treasury netting, cash pooling and all those sorts of things. So that was my first treasury experience. And then I moved to another company, Finnish conglomerate called Utamaki. And there I did actually trading, so foreign exchange options, capital markets and all that kind of stuff. So I moved from purely cash management to a trading function. Also a super strong, great experience. And then I moved to an American company, a tech company called Silicon Graphics, to their international headquarters in Geneva. And there was super interesting as well, because it was an American company, it was very centralized, so completely different culture. And I worked a couple of years there, assistant treasurer for the company. And then in the dot com period, the treasurer at Silicon Graphics in the Silicon Valley left and they were looking for someone. I went there just to, you know, to deal with current affairs. I, the CFO liked me and so he offered me to stay in the US and to take over the role of VP treasurer.

Sorry, I want to jump in there because that's quite. In fact, I got asked this by a candidate the other day. They. They made an Australian guy. He's been Australia, a UK stroke, Europe. And then he's made the move across the US and he was sort of saying, wow, you know, this is amazing. It's, you know, different cultures and everything else, but you were relatively early, you know, stage in your career, relatively early age in your career. What was that like for you? You know, we've heard this from a number of different, you know, guests on the show. Mark, when he made a move when he was at Johnson Controls, one of our earlier podcasts, he said, just be open to it. You know, he was in Brussels. They said, we need someone in Singapore, I'll do it. And they're like, what? And then he came back to Brussels and they said, oh, we need someone in the us. Will you do it? Well, would you be. I'll do it. Is that an openness you think that people in treasury really need to embrace?

Yes, I do think so. Now, let's be honest. I know also some of my friends had the opportunity to move to the us but they had such a tight social Life, family and all that kind of stuff that they decided not to move. But I think it's just great. And actually, the way we organize that is I moved there with my family first for a couple of months just to see how it looks like. And then we stayed there for one year, and then another year, and 20 years after, we are still there. So I think, you know, the good thing about going and trying it is if it doesn't work, you can always come back. You know, you can stay there a year or two or three, and then you come back. And I think to your point, I would encourage people to do that because you looking at the different culture, different work environment is great. The other thing which is also super important for me is that I had the opportunity to go to the headquarters. Now, this is a game changer. When you are in the headquarters, you're meeting with the CEO, the CFO kind of daily, you create this kind of influence and visibility, and it's just fantastic. So. So I'm not sure I would move to, you know, somewhere where there is a subsidiary. But if you have the opportunity to go to a headquarter, I think it's. It's a good move.

And when you're going there, is that because you're very much. I mean, people say you're at the center of things and everything else. Did you find that you had that much more influence, power over the group as a whole, or was it.

Oh, absolutely, Mike. You can have conference calls, meetings, but the meat of the conversations is right before the meeting, right after the meeting. And now you control this conversation, and that changes the stuff. The other thing is humans are humans, and when you are far away, you're not. You cannot create this kind of intimacy and trust that you can create when you are located in the headquarters. And as I said, meeting with the CEO, CFO almost daily, you know, makes the difference.

And you said we skipped past that. Silicon Graphics. Can you perhaps explain what the group did then and what they were about just.

Again, yeah, Silicon Graphics was a pioneer in doing 3D visualizations on computers. You know, the first movies where they were like, special effects were done on Silicon Graphics computers. Airplanes were developed on SVI computers. So. So it was a very famous company because they started all these concepts of, you know, if you look at Nvidia, that's basically SGI kind of what they were doing. The problem is, is they made wrong choices on technology and all that kind of stuff. They filed bankruptcy and they were acquired by HP, I think. I can't remember in 2008 or 2010, something like that. It was just a fantastic company because computer visualization was just emerging. It was like super successful and then it collapsed. So as a treasurer, it was an extraordinary interesting experience because when the company started having problems, cash was important. I was invited in the executive meeting like each time I was like permanent guest. So it was fantastic experience. And one of the thing I've always been thinking is, you know, it's great to be in successful companies, but if the company is just generating cash and is no issue, you know, it's maybe less interesting for a treasurer. It's good for your resume, but not that interesting. And this is why since this experience, I've always been going to companies that have either just acquired someone, they have challenges, it makes the treasure job very interesting.

And so you then as you say you were pre, you know, you set them up for chapter 11 and the difficulties and things like that. So then the move. You joined Brocade, is that right?

Yeah, then I moved. In 2007, I moved to Brocade Communications. And Brocade Communications was acquired subsequently by Broadcom, but they were doing fiber channel networking. So all like big banks were using their networks to for their entire like trading operations. Super expensive, but super reliable networking. And so I worked there there. It was also great experience because I had the opportunity to really develop the capital structure side of my experience. So I issued bonds, I issued convertible debt, I issued term debt. We acquired a company, well, we acquired several companies, but all this portion was very interesting. And as I started to master the treasury role, I was, I had also the opportunity to develop a customer financing program. So almost like a sales program, I had the team doing that. And also I was in charge of the enterprise risk management program for the company. And that was part of this concept of connect branched out to the other functions. You know, I wanted to develop adjacent functions so I could be, you know, connected to the rest of the company. And so enterprise risk management or customer financing were adjacent kind of functions that allowed me naturally to work with the rest of the company. And this is really at that time that I started thinking, well, I've been a typical treasurer, you know, in an ivory tower type of thing, you know, very technical. But actually in order to make a difference and really control the cash model of the company, I decided to really develop this concept of moving a Treasury function from a tactical department to a strategic function. And my whole concept was very often treasury is at the end of the decision making process. And my whole purpose in my job is to move Upstream and be at the decision point, not be after that. And, and so, you know, we can discuss more about the details, but this is really where I learned that being a Treasury person in an ivory tower doesn't help. You have to branch out to the.

Rest of the company and with those roles, because that's going to be another theme we come onto team wise. When you were first Silicon Graphics, then Brocade, you had team teams with you. What was your ethos around, you know, growing those guys strategically, or how did you work and structure it?

One of the key things is since sgi, in each and every company I go to, I develop a roadmap, a strategic plan, a vision. And I'm telling people very often I was lucky. I always had some people were super good on the transactional side, on the operations side. So I was always blessed to have like great teams working with me. But I told them, you know, you cannot become strategic overnight. You know, it's just, that's not the way it works. And so I said, you know, by definition, treasury people are introvert, technical people in an ivory tower. So I basically developed a roadmap about what, how I saw treasury like in a couple of years. And then I worked with the team and I said, you know, I need this kind of talent, this kind of function, this kind of activity. And I basically develop development plans for my team to help me achieve the goals so that they can also build their skill set on that. The other thing as well is very often I would have my team with me so I can show that, you know, I can show them I'm asking business questions and all that kind of stuff so they can see the approach as well. And also I asked people to make presentations, for example. You know, a lot of treasury people, when they talk about their topic, it's boring. And I said to people, you know, I'm not gifted for presentations. And I learned, you know, and I try to make them interesting, funny, whatever, and it's with practice. And so I pushed people, some people who were really good, but they were not comfortable with that. And I said, well, you know, you start making presentation only to our team and then, you know, to the broad finance, and then you go to like AFP or other conferences, present your topic.

Surely, you know, why is that so important? Do you think that people should, within treasury, get out and spread the word? Surely if they're, you know, a very good technically technical person, they're going to show their value. What, why do you think they should get out there in the world one.

Of the common thing you hear in treasury is people whining, saying, oh, I was not informed, you know, or they didn't tell me or, you know, we are never involved, they don't talk to us and all that stuff. And my point was, well, don't whine about that because I can tell you that's not going to change. You know, tax people or treasury people, nobody think about them. So, you know, if you think otherwise, that doesn't work. And I said the only way to get people to really think of you is you have to connect, you have to explain the importance of cash flow. I told them it's you have blood in the body, cash is the blood of the company. And then you need to also. So there is all this question about connecting with people, creating contacts, tax, legal in the business, in operations. And then the other thing I've done as well is I put controls. So I said, you know, the company wants to achieve a certain stock price. I worked with the CFO and the CEO on okay, this is how we're going to generate cash, you know, this is how we're going to control working capital. And then in order to achieve those goals, that's how many inventories we need to have and all that stuff. And then you go out, firstly you get sign up from the CFO and you go out to operations, you tell them, we all want the company to be successful, but these are the targets. But you give them that in a positive manner, explain what you're doing, you explain why it's important and all that kind of stuff. So a combination of marketing, reaching out and also controls. And again, that's to my earlier point how many times I've heard people saying, oh, we are informed at the last second. And each time I'm telling them that's not their problem, it's your problem. You know, you have to be proactive because by definition nobody's going to think of Treasury. Does it make sense?

It does. And although we, we diverted slightly because I want, you know, you were at Brocade and that was still 2018. Maybe talk us through the last couple of moves and then we'll. We had an amazing conversation, you and I, before the podcast, saying about how much more value we've got and we're going to go through some other topic areas which you don't often do, but I think it's worthy today because you've got time and I've very kindly given me this. So talk us through the next couple of moves.

Yeah, so then I brook aid was Acquired by Broadcom. And at that time, I was at the time in my career where I didn't really need to work anymore. So it gave me an opportunity to really think about something completely different. And. And I got an opportunity to move to Croatia for one year and work for the largest company there. And I took this opportunity because I thought, yeah, that's just fantastic. I know nobody. I don't know the language, I don't know the culture, I don't know the business. It was agricultural food production and food processing and retail business. I had, you know, no idea. You know, I was looking at inventories, like tech pots, you know, chips and stuff. And now you have like bottle of wines, pigs and all that kind of stuff. Just fantastic. And so coming back to what we were discussing about, I thought, you know, that would be just a fantastic experience. And I went there and the approach was to rebuild their treasury function. And I did that. And again, fantastic people, fantastic experience. I just loved it. And then I went back to the US and I wanted to start a consulting business. And my first customer was Poli, and I started to work with the CFO a little bit. And she said after a while, well, actually, I want to hire you. And. Okay, well that's fine. And then I joined Poli and now Poli has been acquired by HP and I'm going to resume my consulting practice.

And. Great. And so talk us through, if you would. Let's jump into some of the topic areas because, yeah, we've got some. Great. Again, when I spoke to Sean before this episode, well, first of all, I said he was a very naughty man because we found out that he was the person that said about how technology was going to replace people. It was a quote on the web and it had been taken, I have context, the wrong way, but it been made deliberately provocative in a good way. And in actual fact, when the two of us chatted, it all made sense. So can you maybe give us a run through in your head about how technology you see changing the treasury industry and what opportunities, threats, challenges you see that presenting for treasurers, treasury professionals in general. What are your first thoughts?

First thing I wanted to mention is, you know, when I look at treasury, when I started, there was no Internet, no cell phone, no email. So we were using things like fax machine, telephone, like landlines. When I started, they were consolidating the books using telex. And I'm sure a lot of people don't even know what it is. But anyway, so I've seen quite a change in the Technology landscape and you know, I just love it. Technology is just fantastic. But definitely now with the new trends on artificial intelligence and these kind of things, this made me think that some of the part of the functions of Treasury I think will not be handled by people maybe in a couple of years. And you know, I'm just a simple person and when I'm thinking that people have like self driving cars, when you think about some of the functions in treasury, like you know, the daily cash management, taking the cash balance, making sure that each bank account is funded and you know, transfer the money left and right, these kind of functions I believe will simply not exist. And we are lucky that treasury is not big enough that someone has developed like a full software to handle the entire stuff. So I think we have a couple of years for that. But a lot of the what treasury is doing is very logical and hence, you know, could be replaced by technology. And this is why I said to people that not only you need to move from more of a tactical role to a strategic role for the reason I mentioned before, but also because if you don't do it, the systems will force you to do it. So it's better to do that ahead of time. The other thing I've noticed in the treasury world is that while technology is useful, I see a lot of people not really having a strategy about their technology investments. So and that worries me a little bit. Somehow people are just implementing technology for sake of implementing the best new thing. I would caution people about that. I think you need to know what, where you want to go and technology is a tool to help you for that. Let me give you a couple of examples. So recently I saw, I met with treasurers who were talking about their cash forecasting and they told me, oh, I have data scientists doing that or we have some kind of AI thing. And I said okay, interesting. So what assumptions in the model? And they say oh, we don't know, it's the data scientist, kind of like it's the religion, you know, it's like this magic people, you know, I said well you know, I'm not going to use that. I can guarantee that to you because if I meet with the cfo, that's the first question he's going to ask me. He's going to ask me what assumptions have you used? What if you know, revenue comes down by 30%, these kind of questions. So you need to make sure you still control what's going on. You cannot just take technology and not having good understanding of how the models work. And this is where I believe that there is a future for treasury is are the people who will really manage these systems look at that kind of stuff. But the issue with that is completely different from someone doing cash management today. It's a completely different role. And this is really what I believe is treasury professionals will be focused on your strategic matters, strategic risk management system knowledge and also possibly a statistical analysis and all that kind of items. And that's what I believe.

But how are you going to listen to today? They're very, very busy treasury folks. We know this well, this is one of the questions that you and I sort of pre discussed, if you like. But you know, again, the answer for the listeners is how would you say treasurers and treasury professionals are able to should build a culture of innovation? And you talk about Eric's experimentation, maybe within the teams. Whereas as you say, there are cash guys, you know, they've got to get those cash reports done by that time. They've got to do this. There's a lot of pressure. How are you going to support them or how do you encourage?

So I think you, by the way, you just mentioned something which I love, which is the reporting. So specifically in Silicon Valley, there is one or two cancers in companies is useless reporting and useless meetings. One of the first thing I've done each time I go to a company is I look at what it is that we are doing that is not necessary. And you know, treasury people want to do a good work and all that stuff. And very often they would say, oh, the CFO asked for that. Well, CFO is going to ask for anything just so that you leave the room and you leave them alone. So I said, no gonna change that. We are doing too much reporting and we need to get it down to what matters. And this is a discussion I have had with cfo. Cfo, they told me, oh, I want the daily cash report. And I said, why? We are doing, for example, the direct forecasting on a weekly basis. So we actually report on a weekly basis so that we have consistent data points because, you know, daily report money moves left and right. So the first point to me is you have to look at what people are doing and, and basically remove the things which are not valuable. And then you need to assess the talent of your people and see whether they have an interest. I have had people who were super interested in cybersecurity, for example, and so perfect, you still need to do your work because by the way, we need to run treasury operations with the time we squeeze out of these like useless Reports and stuff. You know, let's focus on getting training. You move to IT Security for a couple of weeks, organizing meetings and all that kind of stuff. So I don't believe that you can just like completely shut down your operations and develop people, but you can do incremental things, which are great by the way because say what I'm saying is never going to happen and we'll do the same job like in 10 years. Well, you, you just added skills so it's not bad. That's the way to approach that is squeeze the things which don't matter and then focus on developing the people. Some instances they may not have the skills. So you have to start thinking about how to maybe acquire the talent you want.

And how do you do that? How do you, what role do you see human capital, for instance, in the future? Treasury, you know, how do you help those treasurers prepare for their teams for the future?

If you like, work with trust functionally. There are a lot of people doing similar things. As I said, IT Security, for example, is a great place and it's so important for Treasury. So I would recommend anyone who has a Treasury team to identify one or two people who are really interested in that and really connect with the IT security guys. And, and it's not just like throwing them there. You work with IT Security, they love to have people who are interested in their subject so you can do like some sort of development process. The other thing is as simple as connect other with other companies, reach out to other companies and see what they are doing and so start to learn what's going on there. Now the example you gave of a CFO asking to look at stuff, that's exactly what the treasurer should ask their people to do. You know, connect to other companies, see what they are doing, what technology development are going on. Also banks, you know, banks are doing a ton of work around that. There's like infinite source for that. But also, you know, one of the thing I'm, I'm doing is I'm connecting my people to like the people doing FP and A, for example in the company so they better understand how to do financial planning and so they get this skill set. And this is as important as that. By the way, if I had to hire today a Treasury person, most likely it would be someone who doesn't have any treasury experience because I think the treasury experience you can teach. But if you are a Treasury person to really understand how FPA work, financial planning and analysis work, or IT security, it may be harder.

John, we covered this and there are a number of areas we're going to cover, which is quite unusual in the show because sometimes we keep it very much on. Here's your career, here's some of the issues, but in actual fact, you've got more than that to share the area. In fact, you and I just talked about it. By the time this comes out, this will be not history, but it's going to be a few weeks afterwards. Silicon Valley bank on the, on the west coast actually recently filed for a bankruptcy or, you know, was taken over in various various formats throughout the world. This changing landscape of banking and finance. And we've seen it there now. They, you know, there were linkages from them that wasn't the reason. But cryptocurrency and blockchain and all this technology. How do you see the banks and financial institutions adapting to that, those changes and then the crossover in how it directly relates to Treasury? I know that's, you know, that's not three questions. That's one big question. What do you see?

Well, firstly, I think commercial banks as we know them will no longer be there in 10 years. So there will be no banking systems bank, no banking. That's my belief. And again, when you think about that, what could happen? So it could be that now it's a little bit like the wild west with the cryptocurrencies and blockchain and all that kind of stuff. Okay. But at some stage there will be something that will look like that. So you could imagine that each and every company only has a wallet in one cryptocurrency. And I'm just taking an extreme example. I don't know how the future is going to look like, but you could imagine you have this kind of cryptocurrency wallet and you have a bunch of sub wallet for all your subsidiaries. You don't need to do foreign exchange, you don't need to do wire transfer, you don't need the commercial banks essentially. You don't need to do the know, your customer nightmare and all that kind of stuff. So you could imagine that even for investment banking nowadays, when you issue a bond, you know, I can talk to the buyers of the bond and all that kind of stuff. I mean, you could imagine that investment banks are doing like the due diligence and all that kind of stuff. There is a lot of things they are doing, but conceptually any intermediary in the society today, their role is questionable with technology. And this is what I find fascinating. So I don't know where it's going to go. But this leads to another thing which I think people have to do a lot of like scenario planning. They have to start thinking, you know, if crypto, if one crypto becomes the norm. And again, I'm not saying today out of the 11,000, you know, I, I wouldn't trust any of that, but at some stage it's going to come, you know, how do you prepare the company, how do you start thinking about that? So all this concept of scenario planning, I'm all for that. And by the way, this is how you need to run a Treasury. You cannot say, oh, you know, we have a plan, you know, we be profitable forever. No, you need to do stress testing, scenario planning. SVB is a good example for that. But what about your customers, you know, now they borrowed like crazy when it was at zero. The interest rate were at zero percent. Now they have to refinance and maybe they're going to go best and we may be in a recession and all that kind of stuff. So I think this concept of thinking different scenarios, thinking different outcome, we had the COVID we had supply chain issues. There are geopolitical risks. You need to start thinking about what could be the implication to your environment. So I think it's a broader conversation than just like crypto, blockchain and the banks. But as treasury professional, the last thing you want to do is to deal with an issue like, you know, bank run, for example. And we need to start thinking about that.

Well, how, how are you getting the inspiration for that? Are you just looking back at history or are you?

Yeah, well, firstly, I was at the end of the last inflation period, you know, in the late 70s, 80s, where interest rates were high. And I know what is inflation, when it comes, it doesn't go away rapidly. So when I see your younger people who have never lived inflation, who are telling me, oh yeah, you know, it's like it's gonna come down well, I don't think so, actually. It fuels itself. So this is why I'm, I'm super concerned that, you know, the Fed will have to keep the rate high much longer than people think and there will be a deep recession. We could be in a stagflation situation. And that's what I'm doing now is looking at scenarios. What happens then? How are you going to handle your inventory levels? And this kind of thinking is super important in my view. And this is all treasury responsibility. You need to think about different scenarios. And to be honest, lately we have had some super interesting scenario protectionism. Like 10 years ago, nobody was talking about that. So you're right. You go in history and you see that one of the things I did@Poli 2 years ago is with the CFO who thought inflation would come as well. So we were exactly on the same page, but we did some interest rate swap, we refinanced the bond. Now I said to everybody, everybody was saying, well, the Fed is not going to raise rates for like two years. And I said, well, maybe. And so what, you know, at least we are done with that. We don't need to worry. And if in fact inflation comes, then you'll have to chase, you know, the market and it's just going to be horrible. So we were lucky in a way. But, you know, the idea was let's think about different scenarios, what could come, and let's make sure that if one of these scenario materialized, you're not completely caught by surprise.

John, we talked there, we're talking about covered technology, if you like, and the rise there. We talked about banking and finance. One of the things that you and I both talked about was that I'd spoken previously, an economist, Euro finance conference of things. And I was looking around the room when there were different tables around there. There were ones about technology, tms, risks, banking technology. There were all these different things. And I, I made the joke then, but I still stand by this. And there was a massive empty round table and I said, look, if you put talent in the middle of that table, that table is going to be full and without all of this stuff. You and I have talked about some technical areas there, but I want to sort of, you know, not finish it today. We still got a little bit more time, but, you know, wanted to touch on the leadership people, diversity, inclusion. You know, we've got some of those key areas that we perhaps haven't touched on. Sometimes we get to the end of a podcast and that we just touch on them and then Bob. So I didn't want to lead those, you know. So with, you know, say, diversity and inclusion, if we look at that for a moment, how do you, you see that? How do you positively tackle that? We know some of the benefits, but, you know, perhaps you can go through those. But what steps do you think companies and treasury professionals should take to actually increase that?

Well, I think tech companies are very sensitive to that, but at the end of the day, you know, it's up to the each and every manager to drive that. I think in the example I mentioned before about scenario planning and thinking out of the box, this is where diversity comes. If you're doing your day to day work, you don't have a vision of transforming your treasury stuff. I don't think you are going to look for diversity because you're just running your stuff the way you have run it forever. But if you're starting to think about, you know, new things, disruption and all that kind of stuff, this is where diversity comes. Now, before these topics were raised, I've always had, for example, in my teams more women than men. And I didn't really look at that specifically, but it just happened to be, you know, the best talent. And, you know, so I think that naturally, based on the approach and the vision you have for, for your organization, I think you will attract diversity because, you know, that's part of what I'm trying to do. That's part of my DNA of looking at things in a different way. And hence you need diversity for that. But I would say that from a human capital standpoint, what is really important to me is what are the attributes to make a very successful, successful treasury team? And it's gonna look funny for you, but for me it's passion. You have to be passionate about your work. And the reason why I'm saying that is this is what I'm interested in having in my teams is passion. And the reason why it's important is because with passions come courage, come this, connecting with others, you know, and this energy. Is treasury the sexiest industry or function in the world? Maybe not. But you can make it interesting.

There it is on this, I can tell you. And actually, you know, we do that tongue in cheek. I mean this, it was, it was quite an interesting one at that same very same session, just after that there were these audience questions and then we were looking down at them and someone cheekily and I did get the masters, but I liked it. They said, how do we make corporate treasury sexy? And that was the question. Boom. And the weird bit was I got to that. I said, I'll take this one. And everyone's like, oh God. I was like, yeah. I said there's no need to. And they were like, oh. I said it already is. I said you can't already make something sexy that already is. I said, which other industry gets to, you know, you have tax. And with greatest respect to tax is about saving the tax. It's about making sure technically it's a very strong, strong discipline. Everything else financial controls about today and looking backwards and making sure everything's in order and there's rigor around it and all those. I said, yeah, that's brilliant. I got into Treasury 25 years ago. I was nervous, I was like, oh, accountants, are you sure? And they went, no, no, these are treasurers. They talk about today's money in the future, they talk about where the company is going to go, they talk about international, they talk about this, they talk about that. I was like, right, okay, well, I'll give it a go. 25 years later, I didn't think, you know, I've got a high energy person. I didn't think I'd still be doing treasury recruitment. I've just enjoyed it and, well, 180 on podcasts now. No, sorry, I'm saying 100, 280 by the time this comes out. It's amazing. And I've talked to 280 different treasurers. There is that passion. And treasury is sexy because it's about all that stuff. It's embracing that. And it's, you know, one of the questions we had here is advice you give to someone who's looking to become a leader in treasury or Finance, helping them develop these skills. I think if you're in treasury, you're already developing half of them, you know, because you're getting out there. I think if you allow yourself to be ivory towered as treasury at some stu, you know, at some stages in the past did actually drift that way. And actually it was frustrating when it became like that because, you know, they were like, oh, look at us, specialist treasurers. Well, they would. Then they got put in the corner, you know, don't put baby in the corner. No, put the treasure in the corner. The thing was, once you got the treasure out, you're like, wow, this person can add so much value. I mean, going back to you, you've seen this. You and I are very passionate about Treasury. What advice are you going to give someone to embrace that and develop those qualities?

Firstly, what I find fascinating in treasury is that it's a finance function, but it's also an operational function. So it, you know, accounting closes the book and all that kind of stuff. But treasury, there is this kind of like, you know, it's the plumbing of the house. You know, you have also these like concrete stuff at the end of the day. For example, when I was at sbi, you know, my main concern was making payroll because you have a social responsibility for employees, so it can be very technical. Super interesting about foreign exchange, change and all that kind of stuff. But there is also something super concrete because you cannot lie with cash. You know, it's either you have the cash or not, and you have to make sure it moves and all that kind of stuff. So this is what I like about treasury, is this thing that it's operational and financed under one roof. In terms of the passion. Well, each time I joined the team, I try to share this passion and this commitment because I told people it makes your work more interesting if you're passionate. Also, this is how you can connect with people. And as I mentioned to you, you know, I'm trying to push people to connect with other people, explain what they are doing and all that stuff. And I told them, you know, if you start and talk and be introvert, it's like a play, you know, it's like you have a role to play and you do that. So even if you're not gifted, you can do that. So to me, it's just the experience is pushing people, putting them, expose them to like higher management. For example, I did, I've always had like a weekly conference call with the cfo, with my entire team. So they. And I would like give them an opportunity to present and all that kind of stuff. And I would tell them something very important, which is always think next level. So don't think what is important to you, but what is important to the listener. So it's all this coaching that you see and it's, you know, show the example. I'm doing that and, you know, I'm shy and introvert naturally. And over the years I developed the skills to be passionate and all that kind of stuff.

So at the end of each show, we'll put in your LinkedIn details in the show notes. But usually the close of a show, as you and I discussed before, top two or three tips, we I don't want to do that. I want to do a bit more, a bit more in depth. You and I, we brainstorm some questions. So I'm going to go through each of them, tease out some of this, but we're going to kick off with the top three skills and qualities you believe that are essential for success in Treasury. And then we're going to got some more questions because there's more value. So for you, John, top three skills, qualities that you think successful in treasury industry.

The first one is you have to know the basics. You know, you have to know the basics of Treasury. My advice to people is learn as much as you can on the technical side because it's like playing music. If you want to play piano at very high level, you still need to have the basics. And so I would encourage people to really get control over the basics so that's one of the key attributes. Basic. The second thing is around challenging yourself, challenging the company. And as I mentioned, you know, this is what we were discussing before about passion. It's easier to have courage when you, you know, and ask the tough questions. When you're passionate. People will always forgive you, you know, on that. But, but it is important for treasury we have a fiscal responsibility. So you have to challenge, you have to challenge yourself. I personally believe that I know nothing. This is how I start my day. You know, it's, it's, I'm gonna learn everything today, type of. So you have to challenge yourself and you have to challenge the numbers you're given. You know, as I mentioned, scenario planning and all that kind of stuff. Stuff. So that is super important. And I think in order to be successful in a company, the third item is really understanding the business. So I've heard other people saying that, but this is a serious thing. If you don't know your business, how can you talk to people? How can you talk to sales people or to anyone in the company? And this is hard because too many treasury, it's a separate animal, right?

Yeah.

You can be treasurer at one company and then move to another company and do the exact same job. You don't need to know the products, but in order to be able to get in the decision making process and all that kind of stuff, you need to connect with the business, understand the business. And for example, for my organization, I used to have once a quarter someone presenting the product, when are they products, you know, how do they work, you know, what's the competition? And in my opinion, this is very important.

We've touched on there and we've talked the way through people's careers. So going back to the, those we get a variety of different listeners to the show, we get those starting their careers a bit further on a bit more experience and things. If we just go back and shine the spotlight. If you look on those starting their treasury careers as well as, you know, get to know your basics, have some passion for it, the business understanding. We've got those, those are in your back pocket. But for someone starting, what would you, you know, look into us? What would your first piece of advice be to those guys?

Listen to people as much as possible because, you know, people have experience and actually they like to share that. So don't be shy, go and ask for advice. Nobody will tell you, you know, if you screw up, if you have a problem, if you fail, if you haven't told anyone what you're doing or where you are, you know, it's not going to go well. But if you're trying to reach out to people, ask them for advice and all that kind of stuff, that helps a lot. And by the way, we haven't talked about failure. I don't know if you want to handle that before, but I'm always celebrating failure because this is how I learned, you know, and failing is not a problem. The problem is what you do with that. You know, do, do you learn? Do you do a postmortem and all that stuff? And I think that's maybe applicable as well for people who start, you know, they will make mistake, learn from that, do a postmortem. What could I have done wrong? Actually, you can reach out to people and ask them, what do you think I could have done differently? When you start your career, connecting with people, learning from people who have experience is important. And also as we discussed, you know, get your basics. So go on as many projects as you can, you'll learn as much as you can and usually managers will allow you to do that, but you have to be proactive and ask for that.

We've covered it extensively in the show about technology and that, that's never going to stop you continuing inexorably this advance and accelerating all the time. And, you know, next five to 10 years. What steps do you think companies should be taking to prepare for that? What, what should they be doing now? Again, someone listening today. You're right, Crumbs. You know, I love the bit where you were saying, don't just do technology for the sake of it. You know, there are some people, oh, we've got to change this. Hang on, look at why the business case. But just in general terms, what steps do you think companies should be taking to prepare for it?

What I've always done and what I would recommend is you need to develop your vision, how you will operate in the future. So I've always had this concept of rolling three year plan, which is this is the vision and this is the roadmap how we are going to get there. Knowing where you are going helps you a lot because you can talk to technology companies and all that kind of stuff. Stuff. And now you can start to have insight in terms of, oh yes, we can help you there, but not here and all that kind of stuff. So that's one point. The second point is, you know, you cannot reject technology. I don't like cryptocurrencies, but they are here. And you know, just ignoring that, you know, doesn't help. So you need to embrace technology. But then, and that's the last point is you have to be smart about how much time you're going to spend on that. And again, I've seen people being stuck in implementing stuff which actually was not the most critical thing that they should have been thinking about. So again, if you have a clear vision, it helps you in terms of looking at what sort of technology you're looking for. That, to me should be a starting point. And the last thing I would say is there are so many companies that are super happy to share what they are doing. Of course, maybe not your direct competitors. I would also see what people are doing. It's interesting to see what other companies are doing because the problem is if you get stuck with system or technology providers only, this is all theoretical. It's actually interesting to see what people are actually doing in reality and what sort of visions they have. So those are some of the key items I would look at.

And as we wrap up today's show, I mean, I wanted to, you know, there are so many other areas we could talk about risk, we talk about everything else. I think you've shown throughout the conversation we've had the passion you've got for Treasury. What would you say really excites you about the future of treasury and where do you see that, you know, potential coming from? Where's the most potential, if you like, for innovation, growth? Where do we go from here?

Would you say we have great opportunity as treasurers to really play the role we should have played originally, which is drive the growth and control the cash model of the company? I think we are in perfect times now. We had so many items which I mentioned before, like Covid, we have the supply chain issues now, we have inflation, interest rate. It just shows to you that this is really the key role of treasury, is to be strategic player in the company. And this excites me more than anything else. Now, in order, as I mentioned, to get this role, you need to build these skills and build the connections within your company. But I think that's fantastic. All the rest about innovation and all those sorts of things, it's, for me, it's a plus in general, which means, you know, a lot of things will be automated or systems will provide you with that so you can really move your resources in roles which are, you know, more strategically important. So that's another piece which is interesting. Originally, you know, when you spend most of your time just collecting bank balances around the world, you know, that was a complete waste of time. Now you have that electronically. But as I mentioned, you know, the like day to day cash management, all that kind of stuff will be handled by systems in the future. So if you know your resources can be used in more of a strategic manner as I described before. You know, there is one thing, Mike, I wanted to mention before we end this call. The advice I would give to treasury people is if I look at my experience, the people I met, the people I work with, the people I work for, the people who work for me, this made the difference. If I had to do something different, I would spend more time with my people working for me or you know, other people in the organization because that made a difference. I today I'm thinking about the past and I'm thinking about so valuable relationships I had and by the way, my family as well, my wife, children, you know, they made a big difference. So when you think about the treasury role, you think about technical things and all that stuff. But the contact you have with people, trying to understand how they think, they may challenge you as well, especially for the family, all that kind of stuff is actually super valuable and you need to cherish this.

John, amazing. Looking forward to seeing your real life soon. Great show. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show. Notes rafter people want to connect. Thank you sir for amazing lessons all the way. Master your basics, have a passion for treasury and really get to understand the business, know the drivers behind it. Some great takeaways and thank you very much. So you've been an absolute superstar. Thank you.

Well, thank you, Mike.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Sa.