Shaping the Future of Treasury Consulting with Sander van Tol

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To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show joined by Sander van Toll, the partner at Zander's. Zanders are a financial performance partner to the world's most dynamic organizations. Founded back in 1994, they've been dedicated to providing their clients with innovative, practical solutions to their financial challenges. Over the three decades since, Zanders has provided the minds, models and technologies to ensure their clients were the victors rather than the victims of change. I love that, that phrase, lovely. But especially focus on treasury and risk. Xanders have been 100% committed to best in class solutions to their customers across 40 countries. Now, Xanders has been there for a number of years and that's one of the things we're going to cover very much in this show. Talk us through how you first started in finance treasury and when you first joined the firm a number of years ago. Xander. Well, it's a smaller firm, but take us back to your origin story. Sir, over to you.

Yeah, perfect. Thanks very much, Mike. First of all, thank you very much for having me on this podcast. So if I go back in my career, and maybe I go back even before I really started in corporate treasury or in treasury consulting, it was more back at university and then while I was studying at the Erasmus University in Rotterdam in the Netherlands, I was studying finance and the kind of treasury management was absolutely not known to me. I think that goes for a lot of people when you're in university, when you're studying, you probably have never heard about treasury. But in one of the lectures we had a guest speaker and he was the corporate treasurer of one of the largest housing association, he was telling more about corporate treasury and why it was so exciting and what he was doing and that sparked a kind of interest because I thought like, oh wow, this, this is really interesting. This is something I want to learn more about. And that was also when they more or less provided me with the opportunity to go into treasury because at the end of the guest lecture he was looking for people to join the company, to join the corporate treasury function as an, as an intern. And that's when I decided like, okay, this is something I would really like to know more about. And that's how I started my career in corporate treasury more as an, an internship in A housing association. And that really got me excited to really know, learn more about corporate treasury, about all the different aspects, not only about the, let's say, cash and liquidity management, but also corporate finance, the risk and risk management elements. It was really great new adventure for me. And that's also more or less on how I got into corporate treasury consulting, because while I was there in my internship, there was a consultant advising that housing association, and that was Zanders. And that was the kind of most logical next step in my career to move on from an internship into treasury consulting. But that's already like 27 years ago.

What was it like there? Because we just spoke before the show about this dichotomy between sort of sales within consulting or any of the big, big firms, big consulting firms, and then treasury delivery. What was Xander's like, you know, back in 96? What did it look like? What were the offices like? What was, you know, was it practically like.

It was really, let's say, a very small boutique. At that time when I joined, I was number six in the, in the team. Our clients were all based in the Netherlands and it was a very, let's say, entrepreneurial environment. Especially when you, I compare it more or less with a boutique or a kind of startup. We were not very well known in the market, so it was really that we needed to go out there and talk to treasurers and also show them the kind of added value that we could provide to them. So. But from a kind of working environment, very much a startup, a small, very dynamic team working long days, many hours, just in order to get our name across and also do interesting projects for our clients. Very much a startup scene.

And when you walked in the door, you were, well, a junior consultant, if that. You know, that must have been quite a learning curve for you in those early days. What was that like?

No, absolutely. It's an absolute learning curve. And that also goes back a bit with what I started in this podcast, my time at university. At university, you don't really learn a lot about, let's say, treasury management. So treasury management, in the end, it is a very specific area of expertise with lots of, where you really need a lot of knowledge about the different areas which are not taught at university. So it's really learning by doing. I think that's the kind of great experience as a, as a junior consultant because you really have the opportunity to support the more senior consultants and the partners with different projects. And from every project you can learn something. So that's also something that I keep Telling the new starters within Zonders at this moment. So just see every new project as a great learning opportunity as.

As well, in those early days, as you said, boutique six people, how did you then sort of compare yourselves or you were up against some of the big consultancies that. And you've grown it again through that time. What was it like then?

It was very challenging. So at that time we only compared ourselves to, let's say, the more local competition, so the competitors active in the Dutch treasury consulting market. And of course there was also a kind of envy factor there because if you are a small boutique, you don't have maybe the network, you're not that well known. So you don't get those kind of leads which you maybe tend to get if you're working in a larger organization or if you're working for one of the leading auditing firms or one of the banks. So it was really like, okay, we have to do it by ourselves. But that was also, I think, at least for me, part of the fun that you were really able to develop the business, develop the contacts with the clients your yourself. It really takes time. You shouldn't think that establishing, maintaining contacts is something that you can do just in a few days or in a few weeks. It just needs a lot of time. You really need to invest in building those relationships at that time. But of course we were always looking at competition and see what they were doing. And also to see like, okay, how can we learn from them, but also how can we be, let's say, unique? What's our added value? What's our position in the treasury consulting market? So how do we provide the best value for our clients?

And how did you do that? I mean, in terms of you and I, when we had our pre podcast call, we talk about, you know, I was out in the US with a guy that was working for one of the big consultancies, I won't say who. And I said to him, and he was, he was finding it really tiring because I flipped over his business card, I said, look, you should have the logos of the five or six clients he worked for for the past year. It's hardly seeing his family. This was a time pre covered. So he was 80, 90% on the road. Was it easier because you were more the Dutch specialist than Netherlands specialist, so travel was maybe less of an issue? Or how did you guys develop it, you know, in those terms, you know, versus some of the others where you. I've heard of when I was seeing some guys in Belgium, a While ago they were saying, I spend two or three days a week out of the country. Was that one of the things you did? Because again, I'm. I'm asking this. If any of the listeners are thinking maybe consulting, I could give a go, but actually I don't want to be away from home and traveling that much. Is that one of the things you think?

Yeah, that's. It's a very good point, but it's good to. I will first answer your question on how it was in back in the days, but then also to give the kind of perspective on the kind of current situation because that, say, post Corona, a lot of things have changed in terms of virtual collaboration and also kind of traveling. Yeah. At that time travel was not that important for us because we primarily operating in the Netherlands. Nevertheless, like I said, there were very long days because maybe from a consulting point of view, first of all, your main priority is working on the projects for your clients. And you can imagine that those projects, they are limited in time, they're deadlines to which we had to adhere, etc. The majority of your just working time is working on the projects and everything next to the projects. That's the kind of overtime when you work on, let's say, product development, when you think about the business, development, when you think about growing the team, about growing the company, et cetera, et cetera. So in the end, you tend to work quite long days. But like you said at that time, travel was relatively limited. The moment that we started expanding as a company and also opening offices, it also meant that the client portfolio was expanding. And that means that for a lot of the projects we needed to travel, whether it was, let's say, for a number of meetings or workshops or it was just for longer projects, that you were just like four to five days a week at the client's side working along with the client. So that means. Yeah, in consulting, the kind of willingness to travel is a quite important aspect. However, what we have noticed is that after Corona, that we have learned is that the kind of collaboration via either teams or Zoom or WebEx, it's something which everybody is now very much used to. So let's say five, ten years back, clients expected us to be on site, working with them at their premises. Now a lot of our clients say, like, okay, it's as easy, we collaborate via Zoom. And that's also maybe more cost efficient, it's more time efficient, efficient. And also from a sustainability point of view, you don't need to travel as much, which is I think, really Great.

And if we look back at the origins of the firm, if you like, as you were going through that growth phase, you joined 27 years ago from consultant to now partner. Sandra and I had a very good pre podcast call where we were very aware of making it about sales. But you know, on the flip side of this, you were a Dutch consultancy playing against some of the global firms. We have a similar thing ourselves as a recruitment company. We don't talk recruitment necessary in depth on the podcast because we don't want to make it salesy. We don't want to say our treasury recruitment company. We try to keep that to one side in some ways. But with you guys, how did you go up against those guys and win? You know, if you're up against a global firm, any of the big four and things and your Zanders, this Dutch consultancy, how did you take it to that next level? What were you able to offer your clients or as it grew sort of thing?

It's a difficult one to answer. Maybe it's best to ask our clients, so why did they decide to go for two mandate Zanders or engage with Zonders instead of maybe one of the larger consulting firms? I think in terms of what we heard from our clients that they like the on one hand the more boutique kind of approach. I think with boutique it's also what you see is what you get. We're a real specialist consulting company. So it's, it's because treasury, risk management and to a certain extent corporate finance, those are the areas of expertise. So the clients also know when they engage Zonders, this is. They get the expert in this area. So it's. I think if you compare that to the larger consulting firms that's of course they offer all types of services and also in all different kinds of expertise areas. And for Zonders it really like this is our niche, this is where we operate and this is where we try to be the best consulting partner. So I think that's also one of the reasons that clients decided to go for Zanders. I think the other element is that we also tend to be quite pragmatic in terms of our consulting approach. And so that also means that one of the slogans that we use within the company is from ideal till implementation. So it's not only the kind of management consulting approach where we deliver a great PowerPoint presentation about the kind of long term view, the strategy, the target operating model, but what we really love is also to really implement our recommendations. So really be very, let's say hands on and make it work in selecting and implementing the right technology to implement our recommendations as well. So I think those two had to be that kind of specialist consulting partner and also be pragmatic. I think that has really helped in growing our business. And also be clear about, let's say, the positioning of our company towards the competition.

I can totally see it because we do without this making us this a sales pitch. You know, people say, well, what makes you guys different, you know, and us as a firm? And I say, well look, we're no different to a generalist firm, you know, we will deliver the same search and, and everything else, but we are specialists, you know, it will take in a similar way with you guys because of that specialism, they might deliver a short list in six to eight weeks. And they say, and I say I've got that list today. I know these people because again, we inhabit a similar world and things like that. But again, you've grown the, the firm and that's one of the things I wanted to talk about. It's gone from six then, and then you've gone up to a team of 300. What's that been like? And then we'll also now you've gone into the sort of, you've become PE backed and things. Can you talk us through those transitions, if you would?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think there it's from 6 to 300. Of course it took up some time and also quite a lot of hard work. And I think if you look back on what are the kind of key success factors for Zanders, I think one of the success factors was the further internationalization of the company. And once we were more established, let's say in the Dutch market, we established or we opened our office first in Belgium, then later in the United Kingdom, then followed by other offices in Europe and then we say broadened our scope with opening offices in the us, Asia, and now in the Middle east and also South Africa. So I think that kind of growth was really spurred by the further internationalization of the company. I think also what has helped us tremendously is also the growing importance of the treasury function within a corporate. If I look back, let's say 20, 25 years back, treasury was effectively seen more as a cost center. And in a lot of multinationals it was even still part of the accounting department. And then what we have seen is that now treasury is a real value added center. So especially with looking back at different crises that we have witnessed, you don't need to explain as cfo, the importance of treasury and because the importance and the added value is more clear, it's also now more clear that you really need to continue to invest in developing your treasury function. And I think that has helped us tremendously in the growth of the company. So on one hand it's the strategy within Zonders to expand internationally. On the other hand it was also the further growth and development of the corporate treasury function within organizations.

And you've got a real passion, you know, moving on from consulting and Xanders if you like. One of the things you've been a part time lecturer, you've really invested in education and you love the development of treasury professionals. You discovered treasury, as you said earlier, through a masterclass. Is that a key thing for you? Why do you think that's so important?

There are a number of elements which I really like about let's say going back to university, but now more in a. In a role to teach treasury management or corporate corporate finance. On one hand it was one of the drivers is still because treasury management is not very well known with a lot of students. While I think it's this is a real pity if you go to university, everybody understands corporate finance and the kind of textbooks about valuations, M and A, et cetera, et cetera. On the other hand you also have financial risk management, more talk about derivatives, et cetera, et cetera. But the kind of real expertise area where this all comes together. So and that's corporate treasury where you really are thinking about the time value of money and the kind of quantification of financial risks. Because that's the core competence or skill of treasury, that's treasury management. And that's why I like to go back and be in university and talk to the students about treasury management and why is it so exciting to start your career in Treasury. So that's I think one of the main elements for me the other element why I think for me as a kind of more personal driver to teach because it also you need to be able to define complex concepts about let's say how a financial organization, how they're working, how they are collaborating, what is the effect of FX risk on the P L or the balance sheet on what can be the effect of having leverage which is too high, what can be then the impact on the shareholder value, etc. Try to those kind of more complex concepts to translate them and also be able to communicate that in a simple way that also the students they understand what's the kind of key message there? I think that's more a kind of personal driver as well.

Sanda very kindly asked me to contribute to an article white paper you're doing for the AFP in the US and in a way we were talking about this earlier that I was answering some of the questions. Now one of the questions which I should have maybe put back to you and got your answers, then maybe just made them my answers was you said here, should a Treasury role position be part of a rotation, you know, on the way to becoming the upward spiral, if you like, to becoming that cfo? Do you think that yourself? Or what are your thoughts? Do you think that treasury should be sort of staging post, learn your treasury, do some tax or what are your thoughts? Because you've obviously spent a number of years, you know, and now partner Azandas within Treasury financial risk and everything else. What are your thoughts?

We see at different organizations it's more the view like is Treasury a specialist or an expertise group within the finance organization, yes or no? And I think it's more that you see that in treasury there, let's say two types of careers and one is that you have the people, I may one of them that once decided to go into treasury either as a corporate treasurer or as a consultant or another role, but they say like okay, treasury really something that they love and they don't change it at all. So they will always be of treasury as a kind of career choice. However, we also see now that for a lot of people they say like okay, treasury is great, you can really learn a lot. However, they also have different interests, so they really see treasury as a kind of stepping stone or part of their corporate curriculum to grow into a more senior manager role, potentially as a cfo. So then you see that in order to be that finance generalist like a cfo, you need to have that understanding of the different expertise areas which are part of the CFO office. So I think it's something that we see now more often. Treasury used to be a kind of lifetime career choice, but now we see that it's becoming more part of a rotational scheme that people do a let's say a stint of a few years in treasury, then move to, let's say business control, then maybe move to a kind of finance director position in a business unit, then move into an other corporate role, etc. Etc. So you really get a better, broader understanding of the finance function.

And I want to put it on record now that when Sander has my answers to the question which I sent across yesterday, so don't worry, we've got it on Record here. Mine was a very similar answer.

Okay, that's good. Yeah. Good enough. Yeah. I already felt like, okay, do I really need to answer this question? Because it's more your expertise about career choices than.

I think you've got a great view on it because you see as many corporates and get under the skin of those guys as well and. Exactly. Agree. And, you know, there were some other questions on there as well. And, you know, where do we see the role of a treasurer? And, you know, I gave this very political answer and I said, it depends, you know, because it depends on what the cfo, you know, sees as the role of treasury, you know, and I've seen it. Everything from some CFOs see Treasury is little more than being cash custodians, being the cash manager and everything else through to some CFOs want their treasurer to be the visionary, you know, taking them on this, you know, AI path and everything else. And you get everything in between with the podcast. I was asked at Euro Finance last year, someone said, how come you've managed to do so many episodes at that stage? We've done 150, now we're at 280. And I said, look, within 10ft of me, I've got 10 different treasurers. Yeah. I said, every single one of them is different. And they're really. I said, yeah, they've got the same title, but they're centralized cash. They're decentralized. They're a centralized model. Decent. You know, they work like this. They work like this, you know, then. And everything and different goods and different kinds of things. So all of those that the fascination of variety and stuff was. Was there as well.

Absolutely, absolutely. That's also one of the aspects that I really still enjoy the consulting work also after 27 years, because there's always a new angle, there's always something new. Haven't come across a Treasury which is exactly the same, like. Like another Treasury. And that's also the kind of discussions we have with our clients. For example, if you talk about treasury policy documents and they say, like, okay, can you give us a kind of template of a Treasury policy document? And then I try to explain you, but that's not how it works. Every treasury is unique and also in terms of what are your objectives, what is the shareholder expecting from you, what are the main financial principles of the company, the risk appetite, etc. Etc. So every treasury is different.

Yeah. Now, I would suggest people also, at a later stage, maybe use this podcast to listen about where Xanders are now. But you and I just mentioned earlier that you're now private equity backed. You're looking at the next growth phase, looking at growing well see what you can share with us. So you're going to the next level. Is there room for Xanders, you know, to grow even more or less. What are the plans? Because it sounded very exciting when we spoke before.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think we are where we still have our strategy that we want to grow and further develop as a company and maybe it's good also for to to understand. So we're not only active in corporate treasury but we also provide consulting services to financial institutions as well in terms of risk management etc. And next to that we operate in, we provide consulting services for public sector entities. And the last element is that we also provide solutions. So we have a number of technology solutions which support our clients, for example with the pricing of intercompany loans etc, etc, so that's more almost a standalone technology or solution. So I think if you look at all the different aspects of corporate treasury, financial institutions, public sector as well as standalone solutions, there's still, yeah, sufficient room for further growth as well. So there are still a lot of countries in which we do not operate yet. So that always provides an opportunity I think. But the biggest opportunity and that's also has helped in our initial growth as a company is that we see that treasury is still very much of importance to the cfo. And also we see that there's a kind of increasing remit of corporate treasury function. And with that increasing remit also means that there are new opportunities for us to advise our clients. So I think if you look at some of the new topics that corporate Treasuries are working on, of course everybody is now working on the role of esg and what can you do from a corporate treasury point of view now with the increased interest rates and inflation rates, working capital management and supply chain finances getting more important. The other end is we see much more companies, they are also operating in a digital world and that has never been part of the corporate treasury remit. But now you see more treasurers are interested to integrate those kind of payment service providers into corporate treasury and go on and on and on. So there's always new elements which offer an opportunity for us to grow as a company.

And do you see treasury there as becoming more connected? Because again one of the questions it was asking about, you know, and I've been in treasury recruitment 30 odd years now and when I first started treasury, by its very nature and I think Moved off into this ivory tower. Look at us, we're specialists and this is to prove their value. And then, you know, and I've referred to it in a few articles before that, then it's taken 20 years to get themselves back out of that corner, you know, to become more ingrained in the business. And exactly as you say now it's adding value in supply chain finance, ESG and all these other areas that treasury is being called upon. Not to be this specialist, not a generalist per se, but where do you see treasurers adding value then? What, what are the, you know, when you're in organizations and you see someone that is not just a specialist treasurer, but you see someone that's a really, you know, real finance partner without naming names. When you look at those treasurers, are they, you know, ones that you think, oh wow, they're doing a really good job, you know, what, what tips would you give them? Maybe for the more senior treasury folk out there, what, what should they be doing and what have you seen people.

Successfully, like previously said, I think that if you look at the kind of core skills of a corporate treasurer, it's about calculating the time value of money and the qualification of financial risks. And if you look at those aspects, time value of money, and so it's all about liquidity and the other one is about financial risk. And you see that those topics, liquidity and risk, they come back in a lot of different aspects of an organization. To give a few examples where you really can add value from a corporate treasury point of view. And we see now more and more treasurers who are working with their procurement departments, because in a lot of the procurement agreements with suppliers, there are the kind of embedded derivatives or negotiations about price adjustments, et cetera, et cetera. And there I think that the treasury can really play a very important role in understanding and capturing the value of those kind of price adjustments contracts for an organ. Another element is for the treasurer to work more with, let's say the commercial side of the business, as sometimes you, as an organization, you come across great opportunities in new markets, let's say in emerging markets or frontier markets. And then as a treasurer to really be able to assist your, let's say the commercial organization about quantifying the risks, but also the benefits in entering into new markets and by guide them about the principles of restricted cash, about currency regimes, about taking into account inflation or geopolitical risks, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's the really important one where I would definitely advise treasurers to look into But I think that's for a corporate treasurer. I think there are so many different opportunities, whether it's on the commercial side, whether it's on the procurement side, whether it's more from a finance organization, whether it's in the shared service center, et cetera, et cetera, plenty. I wouldn't even know where to start.

But it's good to get that discussion going and everything else and just going back to you and your career. And I don't want this to be an unfair question, but you know, again, we, we discussed this before. Do you think it's, you know, you've been 27 years with the same company. I know the role has changed and you've progressed and things, but do you think it's better to regularly move companies for some of the corporate treasury professionals? But again, you've gone from starting with six to now you're 27 years later, but it's a team of 350 times increase in the firm. So it's like in a way, probably a different company to the one you joined. But what would you recommend before we're going to come to wrap up the show after this? But I thought so it's not quite your closing words, but nearly there. What are your thoughts about, you know, should treasurers, you know, rotate around or you've seen this again firsthand from some of the treasury professionals out there. What are your recommendations?

It's not an unfair question. Absolutely not. Because that's of course also a question I ask myself being in the same position for a very long, long time. And for me, the answer to that question is it's still about the kind of learning curve and whether I provide added value for the type of projects that I do. And for me, the learning curve in corporate treasury and especially in treasury consulting is still steep. And that sounds maybe a bit strange that if you are in the same position for 27 years that you still have that kind of same or steep learning curve. And that's because I look at projects from, let's say through different lenses or different dimensions. If you start a new project, first of all it's about the specific requirement or scope of the project. And then you see that, especially now with the increasing remit of treasury, but also that we are really working in an ever changing environment, that scope can be new. So that's always very exciting that you think like, okay, this is something I haven't done before and always very eager to learn about that and develop myself. However, sometimes you also come across projects where you feel like okay, this is something from a content perspective that I've done before. That's most of the time. That also why corporations are engaging with zombies, because they say, look, okay, this is something you have done before, so you have the expertise. Still, a project can be really something new and exciting because it's not only about the content, but it's also the type of company that you work for. So look at the very specific company, the kind of industry in which they're operating. The type of company in terms of ownership, is it listed, is it private equity owned, is it family owned, is it maybe public sector? That all provides a different angle on a project. The last dimension, which still feel there's always a learning curve, is about the human element, the people element. For me, every project, it's not only about the content, but it's also about the people with whom you're working. And there you can really see like, okay, but what. Why do they work with us? And also why do they feel that this project is so important to them? And then it's much more about stakeholder management to see, like, okay, how can you assist your client? Is there maybe a kind of resistance to change within the organization or is there a difficulty to communicate the added value of treasury towards the cfo, et cetera, et cetera. So that's the kind of last, let's say, dimension. So it's about on one, at a learning curve, it's about the type of project from a content perspective that you work on. The other one is the type of industry and ownership of an organization. And the last one is more the people are human element to it. And that's why I feel that for me, every day is still a learning.

Curve, a learning day. You know, as we wrap up the show, you know, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. We talked about this before. This is sort of. Which we do every week. And we've got a series of variety of different listeners. We've got listeners early stage of their career, mid late stages. What takeaways are you give to those guys out there? Before we wrap up today's show, what advice would you give to treasury professionals out there?

My advice to treasury professionals is one hand, it's about permanent education. I think that's really, really important. So always try to keep learning new skills, new competences, et cetera, et cetera. So there's always room to continue to develop yourselves because the only constant is change. We live in a constantly changing world. So that also means that you continuously need to develop your own skills and competences to be relevant. The other advice I would give to treasury professionals is really take on that role as a proactive business partner and that's more or less the same role that we provide from a consulting point of view. But then be that kind of internal consultant and then you will really see to which extent you can really provide added value to the organization and be the kind of go to person in terms of all topics related to liquidity, cash flow and risk. But then you really need to go out there, be that proactive business partner.

Educate yourselves in order to become that business partner. It was amazing. Yeah, Sanda, great to catch up. Looking forward to seeing you at series of different conferences around the world for the rest of this year. And it was great. We strayed close to it. We didn't go into the sales mode. Did very well there. Thank you very much for your time today. Really enjoyed it. Looking forward to catching up.

Absolutely. And thanks again for having me on this podcast. It was really nice talking to you.

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