Sharing Knowledge and Networking with Baris Gokalp

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals.

About their treasury careers.

Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show.

In this week's show I'm joined by Bark, the director of treasury at Sissycham. Founded in 1935, the company is one of the most established industrial enterprises in Turkey. With a corporate history spanning more than 85 years. They're ranked among the world's most prestigious manufacturers and the founded to meet Turkey's need for basic glass products. Now as always, now they're a global player. But I'm going to let Baris explain that a little bit later and he can go through his history and everything else as I do each and every week. We're going to go back to Baris origin story if you like, and how he first discovered finance and then came into the world of Treasury. Because also the digital treasury is a big thing. So I want to get into that as well. Baris, if you would take us back to the beginning, how did you first ever discover the world of finance or Treasury? Over to you, sir.

Thank you, Mike. Thank you for your invite. My education was ended with a university degree in industrial engineering. And on the industrial engineering education I somehow touched the finance and the corporate treasury. And during my short employments in the factories regarding the production, I figured out that the finance, the treasury is at the heart of the company. Because if you don't manage the liquidity enough, it can be a bankruptcy even you have a high profitability which is like a heart attack. But. And if your company is not having a good profit rate, it's like a concern that you die in a long way. So I figured out that I should deal with the money.

And so you just, you know, you found the world of money thought right, that's the one for you. But then talk us through how you then sort of started then because you did some finite move within finance banks and things like that. But then yeah, really got into your treasury career, didn't you? With investing.

Yeah, yes, exactly. One of our neighbors in the summer house was a bank manager and I, when I talked to him he said that they like industrial industrial view very much as being a industrial engineer. I have that. So he said that if, even if you want to go to the corporate side, you should first learn the kitchen which is the bank site.

Yeah.

Because when you talk with the bankers A on a instrument. If you know the kitchen, you can talk easily. Even that you can know where to look at in the big picture. So I begin as a banker.

Yeah.

And I spent nearly four years, as you said, PNB Finance bank as on the operation which helped me a lot in order to learn the trade finance and ladder of credits in issues. A lot that helped me the move to Westel, which is the biggest electronic manufacturer of Turkey again. And in Westel I was looking for the import financing issue because they were producing televisions, which is the main part of the television was coming from the import. And also as being in the west, which is exporting more nearly a hundred countries, I have chance to learn the things about all the trade finance instruments like structure finance factoring, import factoring, export factoring, secularization, whatever it is. It was a nice place to learn what the corporate needs on the financing.

And what was treasury, as you say, you sort of started in that credit and then structured finance, but then moved into Treasury. How did that come about? Or what was the sort of development? Was that a usual move there or how did it happen?

It is not the usual way, but the best way, I guess because I spoke with my manager a lot about the treasury side because as you say treasury in Turkey, people assume that just the treasury activities regarding under the currency and the interest rates or small portion of commodity. But in the world of business, as you said treasury it goes to the cash management credits, customer risk also influenced in somewhere working capital management, et cetera. So I as I was doing my job and then the remaining time I was always talking with the treasury manager to understand what I should get more informed in order to be a Treasury manager on those ages. So that helps me a lot that because when you are on the supply chain finance, you know the all the cycles of the company. And with that knowledge, when you move to the treasury part, it helps you a lot because you see where to get cheap money on the trade cycle of the company.

And it's quite interesting what actually because as you described there a lot of treasurers nowadays want to get more involved in supply chain finance. But in actual fact you were part of that, if you like you were in the origin of it, because you'd done those roles as finance specialist within that area and then grew into treasury. Whereas some people sort of try and retrain themselves later. Did you find that that gave you a sort of a better view for the company overall, would you think? Because you knew the people in the operations or you know, so is this something that you think more treasurers should think about doing. And junior treasury guys, of course, because.

As being a good treasurer, you should know the company's business cycle which comes from procure to pay, as you know, on the payment side and on. If you can manage the procurement guys with the knowledge of the trades, finance tools, it helps you a lot because at the end you are trying to manage the company's money. And if you manage the procurement side in a good way, the money you have increased because you have longer maturities. And it's the same issue with the customer side also because each customer want to pay as soon as late as it can be. And if you have structures which give the opportunities to the salespeople to present to the customer which is on their site, which they pay later, it helps a lot. So you look at the cash flow. If you manage the relationship with the customers and the salespeople, you manage the receivables and the cash incoming. And if you manage relations with the procurement people and the procurement companies, you manage the payment side, you can. So you can manage the cash flow in a proper way.

And those days were you, you're talking, you know, 2010, 2009, 2010, were you already into. Because I know technology has played a big part in some of the, you know, you've received awards for it and everything else. What was technology like? You know, so we're talking what, 12 years ago. Were you starting to get into that or was it something that was then happening later?

Okay. On those days the technology was only the operational excellence level, which we were using the SFTPS and other bank platforms in order to make our treasury deals. There was a way of doing business also. Still we are trying to break that even that all the treasury activities and all the cash flow forecast was done in exa. So on those days technology means exa, which is helping a lot, I guess to the whole of treasurers.

Yeah.

But I guess by the beginning of 2010s, I have figured out that even in our personal life, the treasury it's. Sorry. The technology is getting bigger and bigger. So we should have some tools in order to put the technology to our way of doing business.

And you started to integrate that. I don't know. That's something you really grabbed hold of that says you made, you know, the move to Pet Kim and things. Can you talk through, you know, the moves you made from there from. From Vestel?

Sure. PetCim was recently sold by the government to special company. That's why I moved to the Pet Kim in Order to be in a part of the story where it's beginning. And it was a good journey in order to manage the change in the company because as being a government company they were not fast because it's not needed because they are a garment company and when you go to the private parts you should be fast. So the most motivated part for me for that moment was the change management and to show the learns. Show the things which I learned in Westel, which I said is a proper school for treasury people.

And then with that role, talk us through Pet Kim and then you're going to have to pronounce it much better than me. How do I say it? Cirque Das. Is that right?

Yes, perfect. Yes. Cirque Dash.

So carry on. So talk us through the next moves.

Yeah, next moment was a career move because the. I was getting the title of the manager, a finance manager of the treasury manager of that group and they were in the middle of. They were a family business and they were trying to be a corporate business. That's why they were diversifying the recent company a partial split so it became a holding company. As being a part of the holding company both in Petkim and Vestel I have the good knowledge to establish that kind of structure there. And also I became more near to the technology part which were. They were just establishing the ERP which was. It was a local erp but the logic is. Was perfect. And also I figured out that my previous companies Vessel and Petium was big companies. They were publicly listed. Self touch was even publicly listed. But it was a small. And as being in a small company I learned that you should somehow touch all the partners of your business. So that helps me a lot to get the knowledge of the textile industry and also the FMCG business. As being a small team, I was talking with the procurement sales whomever is near to my desk in order to manage the agenda by this FMCG business experience. Also that helped me a lot for my next move which was felt it joint ventures, a multinational joint venture and.

Talk us through that and then the moves because it sort of go round and round on yourself because then you went back to Vestal and stuff. But before you did that builder, builder again for the people that don't you know that that's for soft oils and things. What was that like?

Yes, exactly. That was a startup. They have just bought a bankrupt company and new company culture and changement, et cetera. So I guess as being a Gemini, I love the change issue. It's also helped us as A team a lot in order to establish things first by you. So by the experience of those past experiences helps you a lot in order to establish a new thing which you can have many lessons learned in order to put into the new system you're establishing. That was a good opportunity. And my logic was on that moment was as being a part of a multinational company, I can move to the other countries which felt I was performing. That was my top motivation. But on those days, which was around 14 months, Vesta called me to if I mind to come back, which I like, because the Vesta was the school, as I said, on my career to learn many of the financial dimensions. So it was a very encouraging moment for me to present all the experience I have. Besides Vesta, what's it like for you.

To go back to a company now? You knew the company and you sort of come back in and then you're, you know, you came back in to manage a much larger group and everything.

Talk us through that, please. When I left Vestal, the treasury operation was for just one company. And when I come back I figured out that they have established a centralized treasury of management. And 35 people was reporting to me on Vestel. But we were managing all the activities of the Vestel companies, which was in Turkey 4 and outside of Turkey it goes to the 10. And which was the good thing for me was getting the experience of the managing people. Because my previous experiences was small groups, up to seven or something like that. But one T9 when you come to the 35 and when you experience the you have a team far away. The headquarter was in Manisa, which is nearby Izmir. But we have a team in Istanbul also. And all those times we don't have Zoom and other things. It was very hard to manage. But with journey trips to the Istanbul I managed somehow. And as being as my previous vessel experience was just for Western electronics one company and my recent one as the growth. As being a growth region manager, I have the chance to manage all the activities of the companies and all the exports, imports and all domestic sales, which give me a big advantage due to the experience I have on my previous companies. Because the this Caldev Go was selling to the domestic mostly and on the Sarktos was an export company and Petcom was doing all of that. That helped me a lot. So as being that seeing so much company cultures. The good thing, I guess which gives you a good heritage in order to manage the change of the culture of the way of doing business, you learn not to push too Much change in a once you should have a journey on the change journey. So that was a good experience. All of my companies gimme something. So I come to the sell back.

And then talk us through the next move. Because I want to get more into you, you know, some of the things that you've done with technology, blockchain, everything else. But you know, again I could dive into there about that still. But more or less bring us up to date with you know, sysid jam things. Yeah.

The issue is that if you are working in Turkey, Turkey Istanbul is the economic capital of the country. So especially in a treasury guy, somehow your carrier goes to the Istanbul. And luckily I have an offer from Shichejam which is as you said, the biggest one of the biggest glass manufacturing companies in the world. And it was also a change management because company was becoming more and more International. My first day in Shichejam Shichejam was performing in seven countries. And now more than seven years I spent it comes to the 14 countries. It is getting. Getting bigger and bigger each year. One country we are in which many companies is being such kind of international business because in glass industries it's very different from the others because if you are in a market you should produce there because as you know, the glass is very heavy. Building glass and automotive glass. That's why as b as I'm saying 14 countries there are not sales office or rep office they are mainly factories. So this gives us a big opportunity in order to do what we have learned other multinationals experiences. And as getting bigger and bigger in such a big speed. We figure out that we have many ERPs very different ERPs. And when we look at to the knowledge sources like the TMI and other resources, we figure out that there are some truth in order to manage such kind of big operations with such kind of big numbered ERPs and such kind of big number of banks which they called treasury management system tms.

Now before we do that Baris, can we just. Can you just explain a little bit more about the company itself?

Yeah, sure.

The you've got glassware, but you've also got chemicals as part of that. Can you just give us a bit of a flavor so we understand the company a little bit better?

Yeah, sure. Shishejam is manufacturing plat glass which is mostly used on buildings. The automotive glass glassware business is which is number two or third in the world and glass battling. And finally we have a chemical which we are using mainly strode ash and other chemicals which is used on glass manufacturing. The Story as you mentioned comes from the establishment of the Turkey and which we are proud of that the company's establish sure is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is also establisher of the country. We are our journey begins in Turkey as for the needs of the country. But after that the company by the beginning of the 2000, 2000 and tens and the end of that company decided to be a multinational player international instead of domestic giants.

Right?

So moved to the Bulgarian and Russia and other company other countries following them. Now we have been a Turkey based international company which nearly 70% of the revenue is in hard currency, not in Turkish trail which helps us a lot on the risk management side. And also this industry is a very capital needed industry. Our capex numbers are very high because establishing a glass furnace is nearly 150 to 200 million dollars and we have 45 furnaces. So as being a such kind of capex driven industry we have a huge number of liquidity in hand which also needs another concentration in order to manage the liquidity. And besides that, our last investment was in USA and by the usajan is now is a company which sun is never setting because we are beginning from India and the ant is in the USA side. That's the shortage. I can say now I know that.

One of the ways that you've controlled the sort of treasury there, if you like, is you. You're very much into your systems and everything else because it gives you that resilience. We talked about this before. Why is it so important to you as a person, would you say? Because obviously a lot of people say yeah, get a system in and everything else but you really use that. And also you've looked at blockchain and you just explore that a little bit.

For us, sure, it's treasury. We are managing all the essence and liability in the headquarters. Even though we were performing, we are performing in 14 countries. So we should find some ways in order to manage these issues in a reliable and sustainable method. So I personally I began to search how we can done it and I figured out that first we should have a corporate safe code in order to manage the bank communication. And which was a good way because on the other ways we were dealing with the mails and the fax messages and other things. And then we go to this chapter two with the TMS because on the other hand I figured out that if you rely on the human being there can be a big mistakes due to being a nature of human. I spoke with the CFO which is a big important person for me. In order to run after that technology issue because if he doesn't take the idea, I cannot do anything. And we began to implement TMS in a babysitter which we began with the bank visibility and which we moved to the bank payment issue and now we are running after the cash management and the FX risk. When I learn and show the comfortability of working with such kind of tool is instead of Excels and other tools also the my team and my IT people also believe in that story so we can make the improvements easily which helps us to take two of course from the USA.

And with this I'm just, you know, looking through the notes and everything else. You've got a team of 10. How do you then split out the responsibility for treasury and how are you diffusing it in, you know, within your.

Team the different way of doing business In Turkey we have of course cash management and corporate finance teams which are managing assets and liability in the world. Besides that, in a strange way, I guess we have a financial technologies department which is now just two person. But we are getting bigger and bigger and the main agenda of the people is finding new instruments or tools which can have to company manage the operations and such as payments collections. Also in the reporting side they are looking some solutions because we understand that during our treasury management system journey you are dealing with your daily operations. Besides that you are dealing with such kind of new coming technologies like etfs but there is no people in order to understand the needs of the company and transforms into the IT language because whatever you do, you should convince the IT first. So we have presented idea top management that if we have some people in tertiary which can talk to the people and get their pains, learn their pains, where the pains coming and then go to the look to the FITIG environment in order to understand if there is a tool that can be used for that problem solution. As an example, we are first or second tailless user in Turkey which comes in as such view business view. That's very exciting on our side. And on the other part of the story also customer risk management is under treasury director umbrella and also insurance management is now treasury director's umbrella because the logic is risk management. So the customer's management insurance tools for the company's risk management and also which comes firstly for sure with the commodities other financial management culture.

And then just coming back a second, you said you were the second, you know, company to implement the TMS and everything else. But yeah, tell me about technology and why you're so passionate about it. Is it simply that, you know, I know that you, you know, you've looked at blockchain, for instance, which a lot of people have investigated but then left alone sort of things. They got enough. They've got enough to do in their treasury careers, which I'm sure you have as well. But you know, why have you got so involved in that? Can you explain that?

Yeah, sure. As having such kind of entrepreneur CFO and have a good team, to be honest, I have time to look such kind of new things which can change the treasurer's way of doing business in a personal way. And I do not deal with the operation. So I have time to read about the tmss. I with the assistance. With the assistance of my cfo with the help of my cfo I make travels to the events like Grow Finance or FVP in America act in United Kingdom. I also visit the companies using tms. The encouraging thing was is I think there can be an easy way to do with the help of the technology. As a telegenous world, because doing with Excel it's okay. But I once upon a time I saw an Excel which was calculating for 15 minutes because there were a lot of calculations sheets and connections with the other plants. Then I somehow I say that to myself that there must be an easy way. And when I look to the what others are doing because multinationals as I said, we are a 14 country. But when you look to the big multinationals we are a small multinational company and somehow they should go before the me I figure out that there is a TMS issue for the blockchain issue. It was my personal hobby to read about the new technology trends, et cetera. And I as many people I didn't run after blockchain after crypto essence issue. I saw that in the business also companies are using the technology just indoor. And I when I look to who is doing what I figure out when there are trade platforms, trade market companies, let's say in the easiest way which you can make your trade in a blockchain technology based platform. And as being a our owner, Serjeant's owner IS bank, which is the biggest bank of the Turkey. As having such kind of power. When we talk with the IS bank and they tell their platforms like Marco Polo and other platforms. Marco Polo was the one we used. But I figured out that you are managing the trades on blockchain between the customer and the procurement. But you have for the multinational trades you have custom, you have insurance, you have block lading. So just solving the issue between the customer and the Procurement is not enough. Now I am trying to learn about the solutions, trying to know what's going on the world on the. On the pages, on the insurance block lading and custom issue. And also as Turkey, as far as I know our government is working on the customer because as being a good example, without blockchain our trade operations was taking too many days. Because we are waiting for the bank communication, the SWIFT messages going. We are waiting, we are waiting to be informed by the bank in a remittance letter or something like that. Also we are waiting for the bill of dating information and other development for the documentary, even the documentary side. We have gained more than 10 days which helped us in order to manage our working capital in a good way. Because in five days we give the order, the procurement company accept the order, the banks seal all the trades and as the invoice uploaded to the blockchain based platform, we give the confirmation and they take their money.

And just looking at that and developing from that, being the chairman of the Turkish association, if you know again, before we move to the close, why do you think other treasurers should get involved in associations? And I talked about there, I've talked to you and I met a number of people at Euro Finance and. And it was great because a lot of them were there, you know. And I was saying to a lot of the people that by making the effort to get out of their offices to actually go back out into the world of treasury and you get those other learnings if you like and things now that was one of the key things. But also, you know, I talked to a number of members of EACT and lots of different groups out there. But the benefits they were getting were tremendous. But why do you think it's so.

Important the idea come from our TMS journey because we talk tmss. And also as you were talking with the Swift also they asked me that how they can tell their story to the treasury environment. And they directly asked me to then where is their session we have now then the second question was is there a magazine or newspaper, whatever it is, which is directly touching to the treasurers, which is we don't have also then this idea appears on my mind that we can establish one because I guess no one have such kind of experience besides that I figured out that I have my limitation for asking experience of the other treasurers with my. Just with my cell phone, phone book which is five or six, which I know from childhood that which I can speak in a not a filtered way. But I understand that there we Need a platform in order to share the best practices in order to have that network. Because I was in the 15th anniversary of the Polish Association, I heard that they are not just world partners, they are friends and good friends because they have a history together to establish something. And this gives them a big encouragement to run after new issues on the station page. And in Turkey now we are we became nearly to the a hundred treasurers in the club which is coming from 85 different companies. Which is a big target of us that having a good members, not having we having a diversified devolution is a very important for us. But in the end if someone needs the knowledge, we have just WhatsApp group. Now we are now establishing the other technology equipments. If one of the member asked that we are going to business in Pakistan, do you have any knowledge about that banking environment of them directly he figured out we have four members who have done business in Pakistan. So that helped him a lot. In order to learn in a best practice way. Because they were doing that such kind of issue for many years. In the first touch in the directive from the treasurers, if you don't have such kind of platform, they will go to the banks, they will go to the other companies like Big four in order to get the knowledge. It will take time, but in the first day he get the knowledge. And then on the second hand we are as I said, Istanbul is the capital of Turkey. In the economic way, all of our members are valuable employers of the companies, big companies. But when you look to the small and middle sized companies, the economy 90% approximately is running on that page. But they are not aware of there's a job as corporate treasurer. Mostly their account accountant deals with the base for the credits and other tools. So they are not managing their business. Our second aim is being a platform with knowledge and best experience sharing. It's first. But second is solving that knowledge issue. Because if we can give our knowledge to them, they will understand that corporate treasury is a separate way, is a separate job. And on third, if we can achieve a certification program, because in Turkey you don't need any certifications for being a corporate treasurer, then if you have the certificates like the ACT and FPP has and the others, I guess you prove that you know something about the corporate treasury and you are different from an accountant. By having such kind of people in the company. The boss, the company owner will get the benefit of such kind of knowledge. As a summary, we are trying to establish an ecosystem and we have just made our first events on the November this Year which was a big attendee portfolio with 700 people and 500 was manager and above. Now we are planning the next year's event and we are planning the educations and the webinars. So the treasures which will come to such kind of environment will get a lot. I guess I can say, I can.

Say honestly that knowledge sharing and the, as you say, the friendship groupings is not to be underestimated, is it?

Yes, yes. And also in the team establishment side, if we will establish another page on the web in another system in order to make. In order to find the right people for the people because otherwise you are. If you can establish the communication platform with the job seekers and the people who are trying to have new teammates, it will help us. We will see. We are in the beginning of the journey.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Well look, we're gonna, you know, we again we're up to time there. So what I wanted to do was, you know, I think you've already given some great takeaways but what are the top tips you would give for someone they're tuning in today. They're a Treasury, you know, early stages of their career, what should they be doing or later stages. What are the, what are the takeaways you would say for those guys out there?

The first thing I should say is they should look outside of the country they are living how they do business and how he can be prepared for such kind of career movement. And besides that, not only the payments, cash management or corporates treasury issues, they should learn about the company's business model, where they are performing. That will help them a lot in order to establish their career for sure. But in order to make their operations, treasury operations easier. And as you said, instead of sitting there at the desk at the company at home, my second suggestion is go and talk as much as people on the environment or business environment in order to have new ideas because each ones are stories are different and each company is different and each a person with an idea can give you a light in order to do your business more properly. And lastly, please follow the trends from we have a Google now which we don't have two decades ago because the chains are coming very fastly and they are happening very quickly and if you miss it, you should. You will be more tired in order to catch the trade. These are the main things I can say.

Great stuff there, sir. I'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so that people, you know, if they want another great friend in Turkey in Treasury then it could be you. I'm sure there'll be lots of people connecting with you. And no, it was great to talk to you about, you know, a number of the things that you've done about the blockchain, about the association and everything else. And I think people would be lucky to have you in their network. So thanks for your time today. It's been amazing.

Thank you. Thank you very much for this chance. See you.

Thanks.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen.

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