Structuring and Nurturing your Career with Lee-Ann Perkins

So welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they've built their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show, joined by Leanne Perkins, Assistant Treasurer at Ion Geophysical. Now, as I just described with Leanne before the show started, she will describe what Ion do because they technology lots of different areas and she gives it much better framing if you like as well. Now, Leanne is actually a South African. They recently won the Rugby World Cup. Not that I'm bitter and twisted, but damn you, congratulations on that. But actually, let's take ourselves back because you've got a very interesting start pre treasury and everything else. Leanne, perhaps before your career started with the treasury, take us back to how you got started and then how you discover the world of finance and then treasury and then we'll jump in and around. And as we said also again before the show, towards the end we're going to do an early wrap up and what I mean by that is usually we ask the top tips with Leanne. She's actually got some really good areas to explore. So we're going to start that a little bit earlier this week so Leanne can really dig into some of her tips for success, which I think are fantastic. So Leanne, take us back to the beginning. Over to you.

Great, thank you, Mike. It's so nice to talk to you again and to be a part of your podcast. And thank you also for bringing up that South Africa just recently won the World cup again, but England was a great player. So thanks to the whole country for competing. As you said. Mike, I'm the assistant treasurer of Ion Geophysical. We are a US based publicly traded company and we have significant international operations and we're a technology leader that creates value through data capture, analysis and optimization to enhance critical decision making for our clients who are the E and P companies. And we're a very interesting company. One quarter of all our employees have advanced degrees. So we have very smart people working here and people are very passionate about what they do and it's a very nice company to work in.

Yeah.

And the strategy of the company is to deliver the power of data driven decision making.

Okay, so but you didn't, obviously, you know, you've got there now you're the assistant treasurer there in Houston, in Texas, but you, as we said earlier from South Africa, but you started in a different career area, a different area, if you like, with a dancing career and maybe take us back to that. And then when you first came across and discovered treasury and finance and things like that. Give us, give us a quick whistle stop tour of that earlier part, if you would.

Yeah, I have probably a very different career path into treasury than most people. I'm 44 years old and I'm on my second career already and I was a ballerina for most of my career into my early 20s when I had a career ending injury. So I wasn't really sure what I was going to do with the next part of my life and I had to think about it and I decided that, well, because I enjoyed accounting at school and one of my dad's degrees was accounting. So I thought, well, this sounds like a good field to get into and you should probably have a career for life with accounting. So I went to university and got a management accounting degree. And after I graduated I started working at a global petrochemical company in South Africa. And that's where I first really fell into Treasury. I was in accounting for about six months and a role in the Treasury Department opened up. I didn't know anything about it, what treasury was, but I liked the people who worked in that department. So I thought, well, this is a great opportunity, I'm going to go ahead and give it a try. And so I worked in treasury for three years in South Africa and then we were expats it over to the US for my husband's job. And my first job in the States was at a Global 100 company in the Treasury Department because I already had some experience. I feel like I was really lucky being able to be in Treasury. And you don't go to university to study treasury necessarily, but it was just a field that I happen to be good at and walked into. And I'm so glad that I have. And I think it's gone pretty well from there.

Yeah. So you started off with Universal Weather and Aviation within the US that is. What did they do and what was Treasury Night there?

They're a private company, they do weather and aviation analytics for private airlines. And that was really my first foray into debt management in Treasury. So we were a small department, there was only two of us. So I got to learn from the treasurer and at that point that's where I decided that a CTP designation would be how I distinguished myself and how I move up my treasury career. I had to start educating myself in that area. So it was really enjoyable to learn from people who already had that designation and to also start in a smaller company where things were quite complex. So it gave me a good opportunity to eventually become what I think I am now as a deep generalist in the treasury field.

When you say that you did that role, what was treasury like in those days? So this was back in 2007, into 2007, and around then I talked with some of our clients about it being a big driver now. But back in those days, what was it like? Was it more spreadsheet driven or what was the sort of structure of treasury, as it were?

Yeah, I think it was very different to the way it is right now. And I think everything was spreadsheet driven. The TMS and the workstations at that time were incredibly expensive and a lot of capex spend. So a company that small, with a small Treasury Department, couldn't afford the cool technology. So we were just kind of learning the ropes, doing what we could to get cash management put together to manage the debt and just really figure out how we were going to mature the Department from that point on. So it was very different. And also the regulations and compliance were not nearly what they are today. And so learning how to do treasury from the beginning and then learning the whole other aspect that comes along with risk management of treasury was something that I had to start learning from the early parts of my career. Because as the 2000s came around, the industry started changing and the compliance and regulation started becoming more important in the US and globally. That was something that I had to concentrate on as well. So I think we've had quite a big shift and I think that's what I find so interesting about treasury too, is it's so future looking and always changing. I recently heard actually a statement that said treasurers should be astronauts and not archaeologists. And I think that's a great way for anyone to look at their career, really, that you've got to be forwardly looking. Changes are coming, they're inevitable. You have to be adaptable and agile. And that's, I think, how you can summarize treasury in a nutshell.

Yeah, I totally agree. And one of the other things I've talked on quite a few recent podcasts, a lot of the time the CFOs, you know, they seem very, very busy, but they're using their treasurers, if you like, as the sort of the scout in front and say, look, can you just go and scout what's coming down at me down the line, whether it's technology, blockchain, bitcoin, anything, you know, cyberware, the law. And they're saying, can you go do that whilst I, you know, I do the day to day and you do the future and as you say, looking up to the stars in that case.

Yeah. And I think it's actually an exciting opportunity and a place to be because the CFO obviously has other things he has to take care of. And you have to be that person, that mature treasurer who understands that there's a risk side to treasury and you have to send solutions down the road to meet you because they're coming at you. So you have to manage what's coming. And you also have to remember that risk does not respect organizational structure. So any solution you come up with has to be global in nature. And I think risk has become more important over the years. And as we get into things like cyber risk, fintech offerings and exposures, you mentioned bitcoin, different technologies, the Internet of things, AI, it's all coming at us. And if you don't adjust and accept it, it's just going to make your life more difficult. So I think it is really, because you can't change it, so you might as well embrace it.

Exactly. And then you. So you worked for a private company for three years, decided to make the move to ies. You know, NASDAQ quoted Big Construction Group. You know, what was that transition like for you?

You know, it was, I will say it was a great experience because I had never worked in a public company in the US before, so it's very different to how I grew up in South Africa. And I think also at that point, you know, I was already more mature in my treasury career. So I started getting exposed to a lot more of the finance and the treasury side. And then it became the SEC reporting. And I remember my first quarter there, I was like, what was I supposed to do during the quarter to prepare? It was like baptism by fire at that point. But it was honestly very interesting and very exciting to learn about the whole SEC aspect and how treasury has a lot of input into that and what you have to do every day to make sure you're staying on top of the regulations and the compliance and, you know, you have to protect the company that way too. So it was a very good exposure. And I honestly had a great boss at that time too, who helped me really understand from the treasury side and also more into the finance and understanding the business side as well. So I think I enjoy being in a public company more than a private company. And I think because I'm one of those structured, more black and white type of people, that's the way I think. So I like that. There's rules and there's procedures and policies already in place, and if they're not, you can put them in, but you know exactly what you have to do, what your timelines are. And it's just, I think, a more structured approach to the way I work and how I excel, I think.

Yeah. And then you made another move. You know, talk us through how these moves came about, sort of thing. So you were ies for a number of years and then you joined Frankston International. Talk us through that.

Yes. And I think the driving force there was because I had the opportunity to do an ipo and I'd never done that before. And I love learning. And at that point I was working on my mba, so this was just one of those areas that I thought, man, if I can get this great exposure and this understanding and really get into the depth of treasury, this would be the perfect opportunity. So I was really fortunate to get the position. And I knew going into the interview that they were going to ipo. So that was really what drove me to change. And it was honestly one of the most fascinating experiences I've ever been through. It was so difficult. I mean, I didn't sleep for a very long time. That was right at the end of doing my MBA dissertation and IPO at the same time. So it was a lot. But I think that I've learned so much from that experience and I bring it into the public company that I work in now. I just. I think I understand a lot more having gone through that process and working with investment bankers and understanding all that technology and jargon that goes into an IPO and roadshows. So it was. It was a great experience. So I'm very fortunate to have gone there.

You were working. You work in construction. You weren't laying bricks, so you did the construction industry. Then you went, obviously you're in Houston. So oil and gas, massive industry, you know, so you made that move, you know, how did the industries contrast? And then you moved on to qmax. So, you know, walk us through those moves in terms of industry, maybe.

So qmax and Ion and Frank's were already oil and gas services companies in different areas. So I think for me, treasury doesn't really differ so much by industry. It's always the same requirements. It's cash management, it's debt management, it's capital markets. And I think the biggest difference and the biggest maturity that I've had to learn going through those different types of industries is learning the Business. And I think as you mature in your career, you really have to realize that your understanding and your way that you manage and the way that you work has to change because it's used to being just managing teams, getting the work done and being good at what you do in the treasury side. But as you move up, you have to really understand the business. So it's been difficult because I'm not a technical geologist or engineer, so some of that stuff is a little bit difficult for me to understand. But I do everything I can to try to learn more about the business and the industry. And I do that by really inserting myself into any business meeting I can get into by reading about the industry, by talking to people who live and breathe that every day. So I think I have a good general overview of what we do in the oil and gas business. And my husband's a chemical engineer, so that helps too. I can go home and ask questions about things, but I think it's very important to learn the business.

Why bother? I mean, because at the end of the day there are some say, well, hang on, yeah, there are some drivers in that business, but why does that give you such an insight? Insofar as. Whereas there might be some people listening, well, hang on. Say there's a Shell, someone listening from Shell, they're massive balance sheet and everything else. Why does that make your job as a treasurer by integrating with the business, what does that give you or what are the key lessons you've got out of that that it's given you?

Maybe I think because you really understand what's driving the strategy of the company and what you can do from your side to future proof the company and from the treasury side, obviously we're not laying brakes like you said, and we're not drill. But if we don't understand exactly what our company is doing and trying to do, it makes it really hard to do your own job. Because sometimes there's competing conflicts and there's competing understandings of why you can't deploy cash over here or why you have to spend six months trying to open a bank account in a complex country. So when you understand what management is trying to do, I think that just filters down to your personal job. And I think that should be really relevant for everyone in every department that they work in. If you don't really understand what your company does, I don't know how you would really make your goals meet your company's goals.

Then you made the move and you said oil and gas and everything else. Describe as you Said you did it at the top of the show with Ion geophysical, but maybe the ion geophysical in treasury terms. What's the treasury structure like and what do you guys help the business do?

I have a very fascinating job here at ion. We are very decentralized. So I've been here for two and a half years. So part of my goal since I started was to mature the Treasury Department. So we've gone through different stages and we were very much at the point where everybody in every geographical region was doing their own thing and nobody was really centralizing and bringing it together. So it's been my job to run the treasury and my boss is the treasurer and he allows me to kind of take over the treasury aspect and figure out how we can centralize wherever possible, how we can make bank rationalization choices and how we can drive technology. I'm definitely a person who wants to drive obsolescence. I think that's what's been so helpful in this company, especially because we've been able to go from some people writing down cash management numbers on a paper to actually then getting into spreadsheets and now using actual AI solutions to do forecasting. We have our own Swift BIC now, so we're able to have cash management done every single day. We know what our position is over the world. So we've been able to really transform the Treasury Department here. It's been so exciting how we've been able to go out, get solutions, network with people, find out what the industry is doing, how we can do better, how we can cut costs, and really just make the Treasury Department more of a partner to the company and not so much a vendor who just processes transactions. So I really enjoy what I do here in Treasury. I have a fantastic boss who allows me a lot of leeway to go out, find solutions and input them where they're the best fit. So I'm really having good time here at ion.

Great stuff. Well, it's a weird one. So when we do usually do the show, as I said to the end, before we get towards the end, I said, look what your top tips you give to people. And you know, we put on the LinkedIn profile, which we will do in the show Notes now. We're going to go to that now, but don't worry, we're not finishing it. The shortest podcast I've ever done with Leanne. Quite the opposite, because I love this bit. I know that you've had other podcasts, but you talk about you've created your own personal framework. If you like on how you get a lot of things done. And I'll let you describe them, the four ends, if you like, but they include. And one of the things I wanted to highlight is that Leanne also is recognized by the afp. She writes test questions for those guys. She does lots of different things as well as presenting at lots of these conferences, which I think is a key thing I'd like you to bring out as we go. But over to you, you talk about your four ends. I'd love to pretend that they were mine, but they're yours. Much better. Over to you.

You're welcome to use them. I look back at my career, and I was trying to find out, what is it that makes me tick, how is it that I can get things done? As a very busy treasury professional with a very full plate and very high standards, my goal, as I'd mentioned before, was always to mature the Treasury Department. I had some time where I just thought, how is it that I get everything done? Sure. That what I'm doing is just taking the right path and, you know, I'm using my energy wisely and I'm in the right direction. So I started jotting down a couple things and came up with just an easy, simple way of four N's to remember things. So, you know, it's not too difficult for me to remember. So the first way is by networking. And I think this has been one of the best parts of my career and has helped me to succeed the most. And I think one of the reasons I can get things done is because I've built such a big network over the years. And, you know, as I said, I didn't grow up in the us So I had to start, you know, finding people who were in treasury and, you know, had similar interests and who could help me in what I was trying to do. So, as a ballet dancer, you know, I learned that you always had to rely on other people. You have to be in constant sync with other people on the stage. You have to take visual clues from other people. And my motto basically became that just like a great ballet, nothing can be performed alone. And I think that's the same for a great project or a team or a company or a partnership or something like that. So I think networking is really where I'm able to get a lot of information from other people. What's going on in the industry, who's doing what, what technology is out there. And I do a lot of networking at conferences, the AFP conference predominantly. And like you mentioned, I spoken at A few of their conferences on behalf of the afp. And I love also just teaching other people what I know, using my knowledge to help other people broaden their careers, because I get so much out of other people. So I like that networking can do that for you.

There'll be people listening here, so very well for you. Leanne, you're a naturally gregarious, outgoing person, and it's easy for you to network and, you know, but if you're perhaps an introvert or someone you struggle with networking, what would you say? You know, how would you encourage those? What's the best way you found? I mean, I've got my ideas, but what do you think?

Well, I think that's actually the best compliment I've ever gotten because I'm probably one of the most introverted persons you could meet. Yes, I struggle with that. And some of my very first conferences I went to, I was that person that, you know, hung out in the bathroom probably a little too long because I was afraid of me. That's embarrassing to say, but it's true. You know, I was afraid of meeting new people. I didn't think that anything I had to say was useful to other people. I didn't think that I was out outgoing enough to just go up to a person and talk to them. And there was really. There's been one defining person in my treasury career who brought me out of my shell. And I still talk to him and refer to him as one of my mentors, but he was that person that came up to me one day and started talking to me and started broadening just my confidence, I think, in talking to other people, because he's a very outgoing person. So he made me feel comfortable and included. And he eventually was the first person that helped me get onto a Treasury board and just helped me manage career as I moved up. And I think as an introverted person, I can see other people also struggling with this. And the way that I do it is to just, you know, try every time to step out of my comfort zone. And I learned this also from listening to a podcast a while back where a lady had mentioned just try at every meeting to say something, to speak up. And every time you do that, you gain more confidence. And as you, I think, also learn more and you understand more about what you're doing, you build your confidence that way. So I think it's just a matter of taking that step, moving out, and what's the worst that can happen? I mean, to me, I've been embarrassed. I've said Stupid things. But probably those people don't remember that anymore.

My life as a recruiter, I do that all day long.

There you go. Yeah. You just got to get over it.

Yeah. Get over yourself. Yeah. Move on. So, yeah, well, that's one of your ends, so that's your networking. And then give us the other three or just walk us through them. I love them.

Yeah. So the other one is noise. And I think what we just talked about, being an introverted person, comes up perfectly here because we all know the saying that the squeaky will gets the grease. And I think that even if you are an introverted person like me, the way to make treasury vital to the company is to promote its worth and speak up wherever possible. And you can't be a siloed department that just does the activities and doesn't aid the end cause. And sometimes you can just focus on getting the job done or the sale closed. But it's vital that treasury has a seat at the table. And this way you can suggest practical views and manners in which to achieve measurable results for the company. And now my boss is someone who I look up to in this area. He's that person that takes what treasury is doing, what treasury is trying to do, and our value, and he has that seat at the table. And he's earned that over the years. He's very well respected in the company. He does a great job of uplifting us as a Treasury Department. So I look at him and I see that it's important to be invited to have a seat at the table and to speak up. And that's the way you make treasury important to the company and you're able to influence others.

And why does that link in with noise? Why do you sort of use noise as the sort of phrase?

What I find over my career is nobody really knows what treasury does outside of Treasury. You can ask a bunch of people and they'll tell you either you work for the federal government. And one person actually asked me if I'm an actual treasure hunter like Harrison Ford, Deanna Jones. And it was funny at the time, but it makes me think that people don't really know what treasury is. So in order to promote its worth, you have to be that noisy person and you have to, you know, go out and promote your worth. And I do that. I insert myself wherever I can, and I see an opportunity where I can help with my skills and my education, I go and I do that throughout the company. And I hope that others feel comfortable doing it to me, too, because we all have something to offer. Every department is important. You know, the traditional accounting, tax, legal, they're already there at the table. You got to be noisy as a Treasury person.

Useful noise. Useful noise.

Useful noise. There you go.

We'll say that one and then your next one.

So, niceties. And I think a lot of my success has been able to create collective action based on the ability to develop good relationships with people. And people get to trust you when you listen to them and you take what they have to say seriously, even if you disagree with them, you can energize people around you. And a lot of good can come from these conversations. And one example that I just did recently is I saw that we had some maybe not great experiences of trade finance in our operations team. And I work with this department often on trade finance, and I saw some of the struggles, and these guys work really hard on getting our trade financing done correctly. And I saw areas that I think we can do things better. So I asked our bank, and I asked them nicely, obviously, if they would come down and talk to us about how does trade finance work? How does it work from the bank's perspective? What do you need to have a letter of credit that doesn't have any discrepancies? What should we be doing on our side? We went down to Louisiana, where our manufacturing facility is, and we had a group of very diverse backgrounds and operations people, and they were so engrossed and just interested in what the banker had to say and how they could do their jobs better. And it was just such a great time, just getting everybody together, making sure that we could all achieve something. That's the common goal for everybody. So I think a lot can be done if you're nice about it, if you're. If you have good relationships and you just want to help, basically, what it comes down to aspiring people. Yeah.

And it's funny, I've heard that from a few of some other podcasters about just helping others and teaching them and coaching them and just if you give it out, you know, is paying it forward, isn't it? You pay it forward, it comes back. Well, I think that's tried.

Yeah.

Great job of that. And then my favorite. I've got to say this. I'll let you say the words because it's your phrases, but, you know, as a Treasury recruiter, you explain.

Sure. So the last one is nurture. So it's all about nurturing your career. And this one really resonates so loudly to me because, you know, I started my finance career a lot later than most people. So I've had to really be very direct and methodical in the way I made sure my career was going because I know what I want, I know what I want to be when I grow up and I know what it takes to get there. So I've trained myself, I've educated myself and I've grown my treasury career to what it is by basically being good to myself and knowing exactly what I need to do to get there. And people will sway you along the way. If you're not really structured and know exactly what you want, you can easily get into a situation where you're doing stuff that doesn't really suit your skill set. It's not exactly what you want to do and it's not your passion. So for me, growing up as a ballerina, I always knew from the age of three I wanted to be a ballerina. I knew that it was going to be a lot of hard work, it was dedication. I miss out on a lot of things, but it was what I had intense passion for and what I wanted to do. And I think the same with my treasury career. You know, I sat down as a young treasury person once a I got my first CTP qualification and I was like, right now this is the person I want to be. What do I have to do to get there? And so I've been very structured and nurtured my career. And you know, what I will say is a lot of people have said to me, oh, well, we can't get our companies to pay for these things, so basically we just have to do free webinars. But one of the things I've done and it's been a sacrifice for sure, but I've paid my way through, through both of my degrees, my CTP qualification and my ACT qualification that I'm doing next year, it's not company funded, so it's because I'm so passionate and driven about what I want to do, I make that sacrifice to nurture my own career.

Amazing. I mean, just fabulous. I mean, as I say the end of each of our. And again we'll include these in our show notes. So networking noise niceties and nurturing your career. Nurturing, yeah, I think it's just fabulous. I mean, just anything else, you know, those are the things that you structure. But again, we'll put your details in the show notes and people can connect to you if it's right for your careers and theirs and things like that.

Yeah.

But just looking back over it, anything else that sort of just bubbles to the surface that, again, someone's listening today and we've discovered that, you know, in say, around Europe and uk, a lot of the listeners are sort of analysts and managers and they're trying to work out how to, in the nicest way, get your job.

Yeah.

Get up the top. And then we've got a lot of listeners from the US and it tends to be, you know, a bit more senior in audience with some of the treasurers listening in to hear sort of war stories and some of the things that you've been through as a, you know, as an assistant treasurer of things. What sort of final points would you leave us on today? What sort of things?

I think it's important for anybody at any stage of their career to just realize that you have to be astute, you have to be adaptable, you have to be really focused on what you want, what the goals of the company are and how they align with yours. And I think I'm one of those people that just knows that you have to continually train, and companies don't always take the steps to train their own employees. So sometimes you just have to do it yourself and you have to learn new skills. And it doesn't always mean having formal education. It can be informal education, too. You can go and talk to people who know about treasury or who have had these experiences and learn from other people. And I think you really just have to be satisfied with what you're doing. And I think it shows in your. In your job and in your passion, if you really find yourself to be somewhere that you like what you're doing and then you're able. You know, I'm not one of those people that honestly believes if you love what you're doing, you'll never work a day in your life. I mean, I'm a realist. I know that every day is a struggle at work, and not every day is roses and joy. Some days you just want to, you know, retire at that point. You know, you just also have to realize that you got to put yourself in a position where most of your day you're doing stuff that suits your skill set, that you enjoy, and you're using your energy wisely. Because if you get pulled into something that, you know, where you become that fungible person that will just take on anything because the work has to be done, and it's not really your skill set, you'll find yourself not really enjoying what you're doing. And I think that can be said for any career. So I make sure that I know I'm methodical about the work that I take on and sometimes you just have to do other things you don't really want to do. But as long as it's not your full time job and it's where you're spending your majority of your time and your energy, then you can, you know, just help out where you need to. But you really have to know exactly how your skills can benefit those of your company.

Yeah, just keep moving forward. Amazing, Leanne, amazing advice there today. As I said earlier on in the show, we sort of had to, you know, get onto your fore ends, which I thought were brilliant to, you know, the listeners. I think people will really enjoy that. And, you know, thank you for your time. As we said again, hopeful of actually having Leanne on a panel 2020, when we do some Treasury Career corner live events in 2020, talk to people about their careers and we'll explore other areas of treasury, which I'm sure we'll do. And just fantastic. Thanks for your time today. Really appreciate it and look forward to seeing you next year.

Yes, you too. It was wonderful talking. Thank you much, Mike, many thanks.