Structuring High-Performing Treasury Teams with Marriann Bullard

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show, I'm joined by Marianne Bullard, the former assistant treasurer and Senior Director of Treasury at Academy Sports and Outdoors. Marianne has a sort of rich history of Treasury. You know, she's seen it right the way through her last role, Academy Sports and Outdoors, for those of you who don't know, perhaps across Europe and things. They're an American sports goods discount store chain, corporate offices based in Texas, but many, many years was 74 years privately held. Again, I'll get Marianne to explain a little bit more, but massive, massive group. Yeah. Why should I talk? Let's, let's let the lady who does a much better chat about her treasury career get on onto the show. Perhaps could you take us back to the very beginning when you first came into Treasury. I know we had a pre chat a few days ago about this show and things. How did you first ever discover firstly finance and then you got your start in treasury and then you've seen it go for many years, which I think is fascinating how it's developed. So take us right back to the very beginning if you would. It's over to you, it's your show.

Certainly. I spent 10 years in accounting and, and I really got a broad view of the financial areas of a company such as payroll, purchasing, accounts payable, financing, receivables, cost and general ledger. All of that contributed to a broad view of some of the areas of finance and companies. At the time I was working for a company that was wanting to go public and they needed a person with a Treasury title. So I was offered the position and mind you, I was offered based on my integrity and my ability to interface well with other departments. Although the idea of being just a bean counter of cash really sounded boring, the substantial salary increase was agreeably a deciding factor in accepting that position. When it started, the treasury was really limited to cash management and simply reporting bank balances. Over time it's grown by leaps and bounds, as you all know. So I'm now very thankful that I started out just reporting cash and giving those cash balances.

And that was with what do you call Western Company of North America. What do they.

At the time I was with a company called NSER which was an environmental company. When they got bought out, I then moved to Western Company of North America. And basically we were keeping cash balances on a ledger paper. That was before we really had computers where we could balance everything. So it was done by pencil every day and then reported to the seniors by typing up a report. So it was very different than it is today.

And then, you know, sort of. And again, you know, for those people listening, you've always been based in and around Texas. So obviously oil and gas is a big part of the industry down there and everything else. So 22 years in that sort of part of oil and gas, what's that been like in treasury terms? Because a lot of international stuff there.

Or in treasury terms and oil and gas, yes, there is a lot of international cash management. And that was a big advantage for me to be able to learn the ins and outs, primarily in Europe and Asia. And at the time I was able to get that exposure, get some exposure to foreign cash management. And that certainly contributed to the education of learning how the cash is handled across the world instead of just locally or in the United States.

And then talk me through the sort of progressions within your role, you know, because, you know, in those early days you talked about there a ledger, a ledger book and everything else. And people like, you know, perhaps those early days were like ledger books. What are those? You know, you know, describe how you sort of saw it transform over time.

It transformed to basically the computers coming in, learning how to use them and going through the dot matrix printer phase and actually being able to report the balances via computer was much faster. It was more accurate, it was cleaner. And the reporting to management in particular was much earlier in the day. So all the advantages of computers coming in was definitely a contribution. Now going forward from there, being able to use all of the features, the different programs that handle financial accounting and cash management has just been a huge advantage. And been able to have treasury management contribute across the company and financial analysis and reporting.

As we said, you started a Western company, they were all in gas, is that right?

That was oil and gas, yes.

And then you made the move to Grant Predeco and things, and they were there for a number of years. Persistent treasurers, talk me through those, the progression there sort of thing.

The companies I moved from Western Company of North America, which was bought out, and moved to a company called Weatherford, which in turn spun off Grant PrideCo. It was an affiliate company and I was asked to go with the spin out. That was definitely a highlight in my career because in preparing to take Grand Prideco public and experiencing the pride and seeing it become a major Corporation was definitely and an advantage most in my role in treasury. And monetarily it was a risk but came out with great rewards.

And within that you, when you did the spin off, was it just you in treasury or how did it sort of big thing about your, your career if you like. And one of the passions you have is taking walking in blank sheets of paper and growing teams. Describe that sort of process, if you would.

Sure. When I went to the company spin off. Yes. There was already at least one person in treasury that was handling the basic cash management for grant price help. She was definitely a contributor and learning the company at a greater detail. Going and touring the facility. It was actually a piping facility that actually made the drill pipe and, and her contribution and me learning the company was definitely an advantage. From there we began to build a department as the company grew that was an education and learning that more and more people in the department could take on strategic roles. And then we would hire in cash management and the cash manager was always the beginning position and then you would move up from there.

And when you're doing that and defining positions, if that's the right way to put it, you know, how did you sort of split out those responsibilities? I've heard about it in the past with a couple of my clients where they sort of put all the departmental responsibilities on these cards, the post its if you like, but bigger than that, but. And they said, right, you'd be really good at that, you'd be really good at that. And they sort of divvied it out, pushed it out to people, you know, did you do it that way or what was the sort of, you know, the way that you organize it? Just much more traditional.

Right.

You're in cash, you're in a foreign exchange, you're this. How did you sort of structure it?

I structured it by the talent that the people had. I realized immediately as we were talking about grant pride code that the person that was there in treasury at the time had great knowledge of the company. She was very strategic in nature of understanding. We had so many different international locations. She knew the people, she knew how they operated, she knew what kind of information we received from them. And as we built our international treasury management module, we were able to, I was able to use her in a strategic role. That left cash management which as you can imagine with having locations in so many different areas of the world, that cash management would take a certain period of time to get the foreign balances as well as US balances on a daily basis. So we Hired a person that had the experience in cash management and she became our cash manager. Then, as we continue to hire people to handle the incoming and the outgoing cash from the international locations, we would look for people that may or may not have international experience that were good communicators and filled those roles accordingly. The last role that I filled at Grant PrideCo was analytical role, and they were dealing in foreign exchange, they were dealing in hedging, they were doing a lot of analysis and working with the financial team. And in that particular position, I looked for someone with a degree that was ready and did have some exposure and was ready and willing to jump in and take it from there. He has since then been very successful and moved forward. And it's always with great pride that I see my past employees able to move forward and take on greater, greater, greater and greater roles in newer companies.

Well, just going back a stage, you know, we. And it seems perhaps for the people that are listening today, they don't understand that, you know, there were wire transfer faxes or, you know, all the different things. When I first started in Treasury Committee, we used to fax people's resumes to clients and you'd call them and say, go stand by it and I'll send you through. And then, you know, you know, not email was just coming in, but with, you know, sort of following, looking at the cash, cash settlements and everything else. There's been this speed of, you know, transfer of information. Has it always been a positive, you know, or did you, you know, what I'm saying is within the team and the department there, did you ever follow the sum mentality, which again, for the people listening means that, you know, certain office, you pass the ball across the. Did you have offices around the world and monitor gas like that? How did it run?

You know, it varies with different parts of the world. Some are very progressive. Europe was very progressive. And there are other areas when you get into third world countries that were much slower. We had to receive information by fax or even by phone call to where we were able to record worldwide cash and be able to convert it to US Dollars to see a true liquidity scenario. That started out definitely by fax and phone calls and then progressed to where as the bigger offices received their interface with the main office, then we were able to record cash faster. But it was a very slow process when we first started and had to be extremely diligent in trying to get with the right people at the right time to get our balances.

And then, you know, as you say, you Sort of were there until sort of nine or ten years ago, you'd seen it progress. What was the, your favorite thing? Maybe you talked there about people, which I know, I know that you enjoyed the mentoring of talent and things like that. Was that your favorite piece about all of it, do you think? Or was it the increase in technology alongside that? What was the, what was your favorite bit?

I can't say. As being at treasury for so many years, technology has always been a challenge for me. My best thing was hiring people that were smarter than me, especially technologically. But I can definitely tell you that one of my favorite things throughout my career has been to mentor people and to lead employees and focus on their development by company offered courses, making sure that they had distinct goals and objectives, making sure that they were had outside education, membership in organizations that were local, and also having exposure to the company financial reporting to the press. I believe all that's an advantage in making sure that your employees are well rounded. I've always made sure that we had monthly meetings where individuals were asked to report on recent education courses and conference activity. So they would get used to addressing a department and when they were do have exposure in company meetings, they're not shy about making sure when they contribute that they're ready.

And with that, I know that you've been very much involved in some of the organizations, so Houston treasury, tma, Treasury Management Associates, AFP and things like that. What role have you seen? You know, how long have you been involved with those guys and you know, and why?

In 1988, when I took on a role at the beginning of Treasury, I heard about htma, which is Houston Treasury Management Association. I found that as an avenue to be able to get education in the world of treasury. And I believe that it's a big advantage to join these organizations and get, get yourself immersed in what the current activity and the current technology that's happening. And I can particularly say that with afp, that was even a broader range and the education that I received by attending the conferences and being on an advisory committee for AFP was just a huge advantage and absolutely did advance me in knowledge not only of treasury, but how treasury was exposed to other financial areas and how I could move forward in my career.

And with that. What do you mean? I mean surely the association is just there, they run the conferences and you know, do some courses and things like that. I'm playing devil's advocate there. But you know, why was it so important to you and why should it be to someone listening today? Sorry, a junior Person. Well, yeah, I'm really busy, you know, I've got all this other stuff going on. Why bother?

I think there's two things. One, the networking with other treasury people, being able to network with someone that's doing the same job or something similar to what you're doing. You can share ideas, you can exchange ideas. And I believe that that's really important. Secondly, the speakers in sessions, I always made a point to, if I didn't ask questions, to go up, introduce myself, make sure that I communicate it after the session. You never know when one of the, you're going to cross paths with one of these speakers. Again, that may help you when you are looking for a job or when you are looking for opportunity, whether locally or you are looking to relocate. So I believe that those two things were, were primary contributors to me learning more about treasury and more about the roles across, across the world.

You know, we talked about that then that you, you sort of made the shift from oil and gas, which very traditional, big area for things down in Houston and you made a very natural step, you know, maybe oil, maybe specializing gas. Oh no, you move to outdoor sporting goods. So what were the similarities and challenges, if you like, you know, moving, making that quite a shift in industry? Was it totally different, was it totally new treasury stuff or what were you faced with?

Well, moving from oil and gas to retail was definitely a huge change. Now cash is cash. And so the similarities exist in that there are bank accounts. Most of the time you're going to be with similar banks, the larger banks, as I was working in larger corporations. But it was a challenge because I was not only faced with changing the industry, but also with what is needed for successful retail treasury management. In oil and gas, you're really dealing with numbers that you really don't see the cash. And with retail, you're looking at handling cash in stores. You're looking at what's the most efficient and cost effective retail practices for handling cash in the stores. At the time, Academy needed a lot of advancement and procedures in managing the cash at the stores. And I spent the first four months assessing, okay, what's the contributors to retail Treasury. And at that time I initiated a plan to build treasury. And how do I save cost? Because that's the biggest thing. What kind of cost can I save in banking? Armored cars, cash handling in the stores, how do I do that? I presented the plan to my boss and we prioritize it and with his approval I was able to execute and then report the milestones as I moved along.

Real Fundamental real cash, not, not just cash management, cash handling down to sort of as you say. I interviewed the show a while ago, the treasurer of Brinks and we talk about cash, you know, we talked about cash to society and various other bits. We joked around that. But you know, this was real. Getting it to and from the store.

That's right. And at the time that I started, 35% of our of our sales were in cash at that time. And so that, that's a fairly big number. And so you're not only looking at that, you're looking at checks, you're looking at credit cards. And then as we moved along, you're looking at advancing from credit card to being able to process your checks electronically and being able to tap and buy and moving through all the technologies. So definitely a challenge not only in the first year of being at Academy, but then moving forward throughout the 10 years.

And then how did it, you know, did you, once you sort of re established or started to advance treasury, did you find that sort of involved you in other areas within the group or what was the sort of the integration plan for treasury versus was it very much, you know, treasury was Treasury. Go do your stuff over there, look after the cash, will you? Thanks very much. Or you know, what was the situation there?

No, treasury was new. When I went to Academy, there was actually a person that was doing the bank balances. She really didn't know that she was doing treasury. And I immediately handpicked her out of accounting to do the, the cash management so I could work strategically to grow Treasury. But I can tell you, as we moved forward, treasury contributed to so many technology conversations. We contributed to store services, we contributed to inventory control, accounting. So many conversations and so many projects that treasury had a key role because everything's about the stores. Without the stores, we have no Academy, sports and outdoors. And so at the time it was exciting to be able to expand into all the different areas and be able to make our mark and get a seat at the table. When these projects began and how was.

Treasury structured in terms of the team structure? Because what I wanted to sort of. I know that a big passion of yours is a about with individuals, if you like, sort of mentoring them, developing talent and then, you know, getting people to come in and maybe, you know, graduate through the group, as it were, you know, what advice were you giving to those people and how did you.

Coach them as it were in our treasury department? Yes, indeed. We did start out with cash management. We then moved as the company grew because it did grow to be a to $2.5 billion corporation. As the company grew. Then we specialized areas one in checks and cash. Those people, those people coordinated with the stores. They were all involved in how the cash is handling stores. Then we had another area, the department where they worked on credit cards and all the different card transactions with American Express, Discover, Visa and MasterCard. And then we had another area that we were asked to take on in 2014, and that was was in sales audit. And sales audit would take the sales from the stores, analyze them, make sure that they were in the right place, audit them on a daily basis, make sure everything got passed over and matched exactly what the cash reports that were coming in from the stores. And progressively as we went, we kept adding different areas of the company as well as expanding the Treasury Department. When I departed in 2018, I was leading a team of 12 employees.

Yeah, it's quite unusual for a Treasury team. Sometimes, if anything, you get smaller and you don't bolt on those. It sounded like you were bolting on more and more responsibilities. Was that right?

Exactly. We definitely were. And it was actually fun to see the department grow and to see the different people that began to excel in areas that I wasn't expecting just because they were given them responsibility.

And with those people, what would you say was key about them that made them. That made them excel in those areas? What were the standout sort of features of those people that, wow, they just got stuck in or they worked longer hours? What was the ethos that you thought that's what makes a standout treasury person?

I had a department of people that had a can do attitude. I believe that our monthly meetings and taking an interest into the different areas helped that can do attitude. We scheduled group lunches. We participated as group and company activities and we had a beach retreat together each year. And I believe all that contributed to the cohesiveness in the department. I am here to say that when people are happy, and that's in a general sense, that they're happy at work, that they are enjoying their jobs, that they're going to produce at a greater rate. And my job was to make sure that I understood what the issues were within the areas of responsibility, able to capitalize on them and make sure that the employees, in a general sense, were enjoying what they do on a daily basis.

One area we didn't really explore, I know that you, as you say, we Treasury Management association, locally afp. What are your thoughts on qualifications of things? Was that something that you sort of tried to get everyone to do? The CTP which is the US treasury qualification. Was that a big thing for you or did you, you know, were you quite flexible on that? What were your thoughts?

I was very flexible. I do not believe that certifications necessarily show the talent in today's world. I think that certification is a huge plus when you're putting out your resume. When I was looking for people in different in particular areas, I can tell you that predominantly the department that I managed, I was able to hire these people out of accounting they saw treasury in, particularly in sales audit, it came over as a group. There was four people that came over as a group in other areas. When was looking for people in credit card management, well, that particular part of the responsibilities was handled in accounting. So I was able to interview people and hire them out of accounting. That was always a plus for the employees that I hired as well as a benefit for me because they already knew the company. Now, in hiring from the outside, we did not necessarily stick to. You have to have a degree depending on the position. If it involved a lot of accounting, yes, we did ask for a degree. But I also think that that on the job experience is a plus. And I've worked for companies that look at the depth of experience and I've worked for companies that require the degree, but I'm more prone to look across the field. So I can make sure that the personality that I'm looking for fits the role and not necessarily whether they have a degree or whether they've been on the job for 10 years. I'm looking for the personality.

Yeah. Rather than anything else. And again, as we start to approach the end of today's conversation, but before we quite there and wrap up, you know, looking back over the time you've had, how have you seen it, treasury change, you know, I. E. Was it ivory towered when he started and now it's much more integrated or is that something that treasurers still need to work on? And then also I wanted to, you know, sort of say in people terms, let's treat them as two separate things. Sorry, I should only ask one question. I'm going to ask you to. Have you seen that then also impact on the people that have come in and out of Treasury? I know you partially answered that there but, you know, looking back over the time, how have you seen Treasury? Has it moved from ivory tower? Look at me, I'm a Treasury specialist to, you know, or you sounds like you got into it by accident's gone all the way through a cycle, something. Where are you within that path?

I believe that treasury has changed significantly and I believe that being exposed to different programs that are used by the banks, being exposed to different technologies that have been taken place, having great Excel skills is definitely a contributor that changed because it's become more modern and knowing how to use the different programs is definitely a big plus when you're looking for a job. And I have hired people that were advanced technologically but may or may not be have that much exposure to Treasuries. So I think it is important to have accounting experience in particular. Some of my best treasury people have been accountants and that's because they understand that, you know, the negatives and the positives are different from banking to general ledger and they're able to contribute to month end process. And I just think that those particular talents have contributed to being able to move forward quickly as technology advances and.

Very transferable as well. And again, as we wrap up the show, as I say, if you look back at you and your history particularly what are the three things that you would, perhaps two or three things you would highlight and say to people. Well, you have a similar background to me. What are you going to say that people should be doing? What are the tips for the top?

There's a few I'd like to capitalize on and one is always asking questions. None of us are so smart that we know everything that's going on in the company and particular in the financial area. I think it's very important that you stay up on the research and the press releases from the company. Write down your questions, ask the cfo, ask the assistant treasurer, the treasurer that's asking questions. There can never be too many questions. And if you don't understand something or why the company is doing something, it's very important that you do. And I think that's always been a big thing for me is that I've been inquisitive. Second thing is communication. You know, we all want to be comfortable communicating and the more that you do it, the better you get at it. And being a good listener, I really took the time because I'm people person and I like to talk. I really took the time to when I am speaking with someone within the company, I engage, I make the eye contact and I listen until a specific question is asked. When that question is asked, I answer the question and I don't go off on any tangents because in particular talking to upper management, they are not looking for, you know, detail. So also being, being happy, I've always been happy on the job. I think that's very important. And then also understanding that as good as you might get at what you're doing, there's always more to learn. And in developing talent within your team or developing your own talent, it's really necessary to take the time to sit back, understand the unique talents of people that you're working with, and be able to recommend how they're going to move forward. On the other hand, it's important, you know, that I channeled their energy, that they were corrected discreetly when things were not necessarily going well. And that way they could gain the respect and the degree of integrity that I have. Because, let's face it, treasury is a department where you have to have integrity and honesty. And I value an honest employee much more than one who may be intellectually or technology advanced.

Great stuff, Marianne. It's been great to talk to you today. One of the things I didn't interrupt you at the end there because I thought was great. Sometimes with some of our people we're talking to perhaps early years of their careers, you've got over 30 plus years. And I think what we'll do is do a little bit of a checklist in our show notes and we'll put also a link to Marianne's background in the show notes as well. She can connect to her as part of the LinkedIn network, because all great tips, you know, all different things the way that I think it's, you know, you could probably, as you say now, people have got to their desk, they sort of little checklist and go, hang on, what did she say? Yeah, go back. Oh, yeah, that one, that one. But I think if you're an employer or employee, you could, you know, from any of those, you could get, you know, draw some value. And all remains me to say, you know, just to wrap up, thank you for your time. It's been. It's been fun. What do you think? Enjoy.

Has definitely been my. My pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you.