Successful Career Progression in Treasury with Chris McConnachie

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Chris McConaughey, the CFO at National Grid. Now he's the CFO of New York at National Grid. They're a global utility business serving 7 million gas and electric customers throughout the U.S. he joined the business way back in 2008, funny enough, doing some treasury roles back in London before moving to the US in 2012 and guiding the US function through the global treasury systems implementation, a number of other areas as well. And then his career has graduated and gone on into CFO ship and everything else. Known Chris for many years. And so I'm going to shut up, as I do each week, and let Chris take us through his story. Chris, if you would, I know this story, but for the listeners out there that don't, maybe you could talk about your introduction to Finance Treasury. And as always, it's over to you, sir.

Brilliant. Thank you, Mike. And firstly, very much appreciate the opportunity to join your series of podcasts. I think for any aspiring and I'd say mature treasury professional out there, I think the podcasts and the wealth of professionals that you brought to the series I think is invaluable and I'd urge the wider community to listen and read through them. There's a wealth of information, particularly those who are navigating their careers. I think you've done an awesome job on the series and I'd say keep it coming.

Is this just so I'm nicer to you as we go through with the tough questions, Chris, you don't want me to ask the toughest. You know, you're buttering me up nicely, but I'll still let you go through with these guys. But no, thank you, sir. And again, I just, as I said before in different podcasts, I just love your stories. I love your story and it's intermingled actually with us and when we, when I first started the, you know, the treasury recruitment company many years ago when we were called Mr. Recruitment and Things. But, you know, so that, you know, Chris has been a longtime supporter of the business. So thank you for that, sir. But, well, let's, let's go back. Let's take us back to your university days and then, you know, first starting in finance because I Think that's, that's fascinating as much as it is anyway. And, and you can, you know, butter me up further later on in the show. But back to you, sir. Go on.

Thank you and appreciate you going easy on me. So I say like minded, 18, 19 year olds, I was pretty, I'd say, unclear about what the future held to me from a professional standpoint. I spent my, I'd say late teen years actually coaching tennis, believe it or not, both in the UK and in the US and it was really during probably that time that I had an opportunity to meet a wide range of professionals, a lot from the banking sector and particularly in the US financial institutions and hedge funds. And that really probably gave me the first impetus to consider careers within, I'd say the financial world. I left university and decided to stay on after a gap year and do a post grad in economics. I was, I'd say teetering with the idea of going into academia versus the corporate world. And when I left my postgrad at Edinburgh University back in 2006, I think it was now obviously looks like many 19 or 23 year olds at the time looked at a range of graduate jobs and just pure coincidence, I ended up back in my hometown of Newcastle after leaving for many years as a graduate trainee at Northern Rock. Prior to obviously Northern Rock going into insolvency, that was probably my first taste of life in banking through corporate treasury. I had an awesome experience in the two, three years I was there. Got the opportunity to get involved on liquidity management, financial markets, huge depth in commercial paper programs, foreign exchange hedging, credit markets, gilt markets. It was a great place to start my early years and learn the trade. Obviously we know what happened with Northern Rock during the financial crisis and that actually brought me down.

I was going to say, Chris, we do you and I do and I know them very well. I have a mortgage with them. They're amazing, you know, great rates and everything else. But as you say for some of those international listeners, they were a bank in the north of England, you know, northeast of England. Can you just, just give a quick precipit for people? What did happen?

Great question. Northern Rock obviously was one of the, I'd say aspiring or leading mortgage lenders in the UK back in the late noughties, the time of the financial crisis, the bank of England had stepped in to be a lender of last resort when we saw the turmoil hit and that was really the impetus for the organization to go into insolvency and then ultimately become part of the government's asset management or asset recovery program. At the time, I'd say Northern Rock was a significantly growing organization and probably was growing at its peak at probably the wrong time in the market. And we did see, I'd say a sequence of ex building societies go into insolvency kind of post that period. So it was a tough time for many mortgage lenders and building societies. I will say from a career perspective I probably learned some of the greatest lessons of my career during that kind of six month period of going into insolvency and bankruptcy. Just the, the interaction with the bank of England, the interaction with the government and just how the executives and senior leaders at Northern Rock navigated through it. And that's ultimately what really kind of drew me into probably more the corporate treasury world versus financial markets. I did at the time want to make sure that any organization that I worked in I could have a strong attachment to the product they sell or they sold. So Northern Rock was very much a community based organization and it really helped me kind of create a tie to the work I did and what we were doing as an organization. That led me actually to London and probably my first interaction with the treasury recruitment team. So yourself and the wider team there at treasury recruitment. I spent 12 months post Northern Rock at Pricewaterhouse. Surprisingly, in their insolvency practice they have an asset management team that looks after insolvency funds. So I had the opportunity to work on a number of different insolvency clients, particularly on probably the short term cash and liquidity management of those insolvency estates. It's a great experience but probably not the right fit for what I was wanting to do. Longer term I did want probably a broader breadth of treasury products and treasury experience and it was great opportunity but quite a narrow field.

Chris, I'm going to jump in just so that again. Well, some people here, you know, one of the big four was, you know, back then it was actually Big six or whatever it was, but as BRS or Business Recovery Services is called, that again that's not really consultancy. Just so for the listeners it was much more as you say, in businesses in runoff running through their assets and trying to sort of bit of a troubleshooting role which was great for you at the time, but it's not a wider consultancy position. Would that be the right way to describe it?

I think yeah, that's absolutely right. It's probably 80, 80%, I'd say asset wind down liquidity management and then 20% consultancy. So on some clients helping support I'd say more kind of corporate treasury, kind of liquidity asset management projects, but generally it is a. I call it a corporate treasury within an insolvency practice. Like many people, I'd say that navigate through their career, I was keen to move, but I was also quite nervous about the tenure and the length of time I'd been at Pricewaterhouse. And those can obviously be very difficult decisions for a candidate moving so quickly after being in a role and what that means from a perception. But I was fortunate enough to actually get some pretty good guidance. And this isn't a plug for you guys, because I think it's the best plug away. Plug away.

We don't plug away in it.

14 years ago, yeah, I found the team at the time, obviously I was engaged with several recruiters in the market, but I found the team, actually, Mr. Recruitment at the time, very helpful in just helping me navigate that decision and did think at the time the team were very much in it for the long game in terms of treasury recruitment. You could see that in terms of the way that you and the team kind of pitched opportunities and what was in it for clients and candidates. And the team was super helpful, I'd say, providing me with guidance to navigate through that move. And actually it was the treasury recruitment team that introduced me to the opportunity at National Grid. And here I am, the best part of 14 years later, a success story.

That's the thing. And that's. I mean, it sounds self congratulatory and it's not meant like that. We've just had a similar situation with Craig, who works with me running the UK desk recently, and he just said, oh. I said, look, you can control what you control, but just give the best advice to that candidate. If they choose to stay or choose a different opportunity, don't push them. You know, it's all we can do is give guidance. Because, you know, as one of my clients, Martin Grice, said many years ago, he said, look, the difference between you and some of your competitors, and we won't name and show you, but he said, for you it's a mortgage, for them it's their rent. And I was like, what do you mean? He said, no, you're in this because, you know, and I've been doing it 25 years, as you well know, and you know, don't look a day over 53. Anyway, move on. But the fact is that if we can help you now, you then become a client who becomes a candidate who becomes a client, because it's the way I want to be treated. And by doing this, you know, you've exactly say, Chris, you've gone in, you went in. Starting in treasury then. And again, I don't want to. I wanted to shut up. I want. It's your show, talk us through you. We place you there in Treasury. What was treasury like then? And then it led to this international opportunity is amazing. But give us a walk through of you and how you grew as a Treasury professional again, for the people that are listening.

Yeah, thank you. Great question. I was interested actually in the opportunity at Nashville Grid because of its, I'd say firstly, its international presence, secondly, the reputation that the team had at Nashal Grid in terms of what they were involved in, the depth and breadth of the treasury team in terms of level of products that were involved within treasury, but also how they supported the business. And having met the team, many of them are still within National. Grid knew that there was an opportunity to both grow my technical skillset but at the same time get exposure to a business that was international in nature. But back to my early point had a product offering in terms of what it did for customers. That was something that I believed in. So probably one of the reasons why I've been here 14 years, it's very much a societal, community based organization. Unlike many other commercial organizations, we as a company have to effectively provide service to every socioeconomic group. But there is the transmission and distribution company both in the UK and the US and it's pivotal to societal needs, whether it's high net worth or low income. So there was a draw for me in actually working for an organization that had purpose and had a huge connection with the communities in which it served. And the icing on the cake was it was an awesome treasury team to work in and I knew I had opportunities to grow. I think one of the things that checked the box for me at the time was I knew I'd have the opportunity to work in different treasury product sectors, which I think it's often difficult for folks to do in other Treasuries from time to time. So I knew there was a heavy FX kind of money markets focus, there was a heavy debt capital markets focus, a big debt investor relations focus in corporate finance. I knew over a three, four year period I'd have the opportunity to, I'd say learn my trade in each of those areas, which is not always an easy thing to do. And getting into different front, middle, back office teams can often be a lot harder than people think. And I knew that opportunity of Grid was going to be there for me providing AI delivered and bi sort out the opportunities along the way.

And you're exactly right for those listeners they got idea for grid but you then went from Assistant Treasury Manager within money markets to capital markets, then Treasury Systems and then you made the move to the us. Some people will get frustrated, particularly some US corporates. I'm talking to that. You know, you talk about the fact that they will be in that corporate. Yeah. For the next three to six years and they might make a couple of moves in treasury but really won't have the opportunity to, you know, take springboard their career if you like you did because of the breadth of it. How did you guide that yourself or were you being sort of led to it because you know, building out the different areas. How did it work for you?

I'd say there's probably a couple of components to it I think firstly having good guidance and counsel from those around you. Our treasurer at the time, time and Assistant Treasurer were very instrumental and just helped me think through career choices and those experiences that I may want to consider depending on what future path I went down. I had in my mind at the time that I was absolutely going to go down the treasury path and I had a view to be group treasurer and wanted to follow that kind of trajectory over the next five to 10 years. But I also, I think coming from Northern Rock and seeing I'd say the level of opportunity and experience I was able to get there and how it can disappear very quickly. I did take a very, I'd say long term view of my career opportunities but also the experiences that I wanted to get along the way. So that was probably one of the reasons why I stepped out to do treasury systems implementation. A lot of people at the time and I'm sure a lot of people today would probably say I was crazy. You know, why do you want to move out of the world of glamorous capital markets and step into the world of slugging it out with it and the business on putting in a software application. But the long term view of it for me was over my career, the likelihood is I'm going to work on a systems project, I'm possibly going to lead a systems project and I'm probably going to fail on at least one systems project over the 20, 30 years that I'm going to be working. So I took the view that if I can use this experience to build a skill set to a, allow me to lead one in the future on a bigger scale and two, avoid me failing on a future project that was probably what gave me the drive to step out and have a cracker leading a fairly, I'd say, diverse and global systems implementation, which was, it was a longer term view that there was a capability and an experience there that I knew would be invaluable. Not necessarily today, but over the length and breadth of my career. And I will say it wasn't the sexiest work, but I probably gained more out of that than I would have done. Probably spending another 12, 18 months in capital markets doing what I was doing at the time.

And how did then the move to the US come about? What? I'm asking this, I know the answer. You know, sorry guys, for the listeners, you know, they sometimes say, I've talked to Mark many years ago, controls, and he, you know, he'd made the move from Belgium to Milwaukee, Milwaukee, Singapore, Singapore back to Milwaukee and really again took his career to an extent where you then decided, yeah, I'll go to the us. How did that come about?

I think it was. I'd always had an interest to travel and explore opportunities in other parts of the world, particularly from a, A Treasury perspective. I think a bit of it was probably a function of the project and the company that I worked for. So I joined Grid knowing that there's probably a higher probability of having an opportunity in the US at some point in time. I didn't know when that would be and whether it would be right for me, but there was always something there that created an opportunity. The project itself was probably split. Well, it was split 50, 50 UK and US and there was a need to probably put more effort and impetus around the US component of it relative to the UK. I'd originally gone out to the US to do 12 months of implementation and then I didn't really have, I'd say a return to Earth plan after that. But at the time, my now partner and wife Sarah, we decided we would take the chance. We'd go and do the implementation for 12 months and if there wasn't an opportunity after it at Grid, we would probably take off another year and maybe travel and seek opportunities elsewhere and then come back to London. We did take it as a bit of a risk, but knowing that with many of these projects, if you deliver well and show that you've got capability to do other things, there's always something that has the potential to come out of it at the end. And I was lucky enough for that to be the case. We finished the implementation and was successful in the us. We had probably a longer lead time to deliver it in the UK and after that role I took on an interim role as U.S. treasurer covering maternity leave and then that then progressed into taking on the U.S. treasurer role on a full time basis. So there's probably a bit of a circumstance and situational element of it, but knowing very much, if you step out of your comfort zone and take on opportunities, you may close the door behind you, but the chances are you're going to open another 10 in front of you. Yeah.

And Chris, you gave me some great framing questions, if you like, and not underestimating the opportunities that were offered to you. And this directly plugs into this, this opportunity to have an opportunity in the U.S. you know, relative to the U.K. and where you were going there and growing. How is it different the US outlook on treasury and then because we're going to get into the finance piece more recently, but before we do that, Treasury, US treasury, uk, European Treasury. How was it different for you externally and internally for you as a Treasury professional, if you like?

Yeah, I'd say the first, I think it's changed a lot in the past probably 12, well, 10 years. I think my first impressions kind of coming from the European UK market is I found that kind of UK treasury was a lot more diverse in terms of product offerings and in terms of the skill sets required to fulfill a corporate treasury role. So it spanned the breadth of fund middle back office, whether that's kind of intra week cash management, all the way to complex hedging, all the way to liquidity management. As I found probably in the US treasury treasury market, which I think has evolved over time, there's a lot more of a cash management focus and a lot of the, I'd say more corporate finance, debt capital market structuring type activities often sat in other parts of the business. So there was definitely a, probably a more of a cash management banking focus in the US than what I'd experienced in the UK and some of that was probably more of a function of some of the domestic companies in the US obviously didn't have some of that overseas foreign exchange exposure which generally kind of changed the the mix of skill sets that be needed culturally very much the same, very proud profession. I think treasury is time somewhat understated in terms of its offering and what it can deliver for the business. But I'd say culturally very, very similar. But it was definitely a nuance in product offerings which I think has evolved over the past 10 years and you do see a more kind of specialized skill set starting to be or capability starting to be put into US treasury functions than what I experienced 10 or so years ago.

I agree. And I find that when I'm recruiting from the job descriptions I was being sent to me, given to me 10 years ago, the chalk and cheese a little bit in terms of they were very was recruiting in the US 10 years ago, they'd be very domestic focused, very cash management issue. Then sometimes I get this, we don't mind someone from a bank or a corporate will do this. And because some of the size and some of the numbers, you know, some of the people that were saying, well it's a cash banking manager. And I was like, right, okay, do you mean a cash manager or a banking manager? And now I think, you know, the evolution of treasury itself and the, you know, corporate treasury many years ago, Chris, when we first started, and I started a bit before yourself, a few years it had become slightly ivory tattered and more specialist. Look, we got a big pay rise because we're the treasury, but it wasn't linked to the business. And over the past three years when I've done the podcast, I've been talking more and more that the more that treasury can get involved in the business the better, you know, and that's nicely segues, if you like, into your roles and then this treasury provided you with the sort of introduction to the controller roles and shared services. Can you then take us back through the next few moves before we sort of ask you some more random questions?

Yeah. So it's after the US Treasurer role we had a incoming CFO to the US business who was, I'd say, kind enough. Kind enough to offer me an opportunity to step out of the world of treasury and to move into the controllership, which is, I say for many people listening, probably an odd way to do it. More often than not you'll come from an accounting background controllership and then move over to a more specialist Corp Finance treasury role. But the opportunity at the time obviously was going to be a stretch for me. Coming from a non accounting background, obviously I had strong enough and good enough depth to be able to perform in the role, but was absolutely going to be relying on the SMEs and team around me. But the view at the time was the organization wanting somebody to come in and kind of transform the elements of the controllership and really move the function forward. Not just be kind of a books and records, but how do we drive the business forward from a performance standpoint? So I'd say I had a couple of people who believed in me and were willing to offer me the opportunity and I'D probably got to the point within the treasury world where I had an aspiration to build a broader skill set and I had an aspiration to access the business through other channels. So I was keen to gather experiences that were both group treasurer positive, but also CFO positive at the same time, and knew that encompassed treasury, corporate finance, FP and a controllership. And we were going through a significant period of change at National Grid. We had a number of challenges post an SAP implementation which required us to do quite a lot of work to kind of get the function back up to a place where it was stable and we were reporting on a more frequent basis. So somebody believes in me and was willing to sponsor me to step out. And that really opened my, I'd say opened my eyes to broader opportunities within the finance spectrum. I will say that the experiences that I gained within treasury, whether that was through pensions, commodity core, treasury activities, was invaluable in helping me navigate the performance aspect of the business. I had a lot of work to do to get myself up to speed on US regulatory rate making and US GAAP versus ifrs. But the experiences I got in treasury really helped me kind of take a longer term view of what the controllership could be and what it needed to do at the same time giving me a great opportunity to learn a new skill set along the way and talk.

Through then the then controller to then shared services and in your back pocket all the time to then cfo. Let's go through those, but we're keeping in the back of our minds, back pocket, the sort of treasury expertise you've got there and where that was relevant. But talk us through the next, the next moves if you like, because it's got bigger and bigger, you know, the number of staff and budget and everything else. So talk us through how you've grown from there.

I think when you look at it as a kind of a linear progression, you can kind of look at, you know, outside looking in, kind of start to get a sense of the experiences I was trying to get gain along the way. I've always been of the frame of mind. My job is to create and add value and everything I kind of get involved in, but equally learn something from the experience and build my skill set along the way. After a couple of years in the controllership function, opportunity came up to head up our US shared services at the time which was migrating to an enterprise business services model. So that was getting very much into the operational part of finance, one being kind of AP payroll, some of our customer billing activities but at the same time we were trying to build our broader business services offering particularly from a core kind of treasury, but also core accounting activities being placed into business services. So really looking to, I'd say scale that organization in very, I'd say day to day operational aspects. I guess had experience in running kind of larger transformation projects and at the same time kind of leading initiatives. So it was a great springboard for me to kind of get a bit of broader leadership experience with a large team at the same time working through another, I'd say larger scale transformation, which was only going to help me on the back of, I'd say the treasury systems work that I'd done three or four years earlier. And equally, the team I had the opportunity to work with was super passionate and an awesome team to get involved with and it was a great couple of years. But there was always a longer term view in mind, which is, this is going to be a great experience for me. I think I can add value and I think I can add value to the organization, but I'm going to learn a lot more about the operational aspects of core finance at the same time as core business operations.

Now, what I want to do, you bring us up to date with the CFO ship because I want to link that to again, one of the really good questions that Chris had given me before. I'm totally stealing his work. Why not, you know, borrow, you know, reuse and recycle and things about you put here how my others think about the experiences they need to follow a similar path. And I think it's a great way that if someone is then thinking about becoming a CFO as you are now, and that sort of transformation in your career, can you then, you know, speak to that about the new, the role that you've got a couple of CFO ships and again, there'll be treasury guys listening today thinking, oh yeah, actually that sounds like good, that's what I want to do. So what should they be thinking about?

It's a great question. It's also a tough question because I think there is a, there's an inherent bias at different points in your career to kind of signal a landing spot. And what I mean by that is somebody said, well, what do you want to be when you grow up? Do you want to be a chief exec, a cfo, a chief procurement officer? And I think probably through the first 10 years of your career, I think a lot of people go through probably a bit of a dilemma which is, I don't know that answer, but I Feel like I'm being forced into it. I went through some of that, but I also had great guidance along the way from many folks who are still at National Grid, which is you don't necessarily have to pick a destination, but you need to be clear on the type of work you want to be doing and the type of value you want to be delivering. And then what are those experiences that you need along the way to help you be successful in that? And if you can think about it that way, you tend to be probably more role agnostic and a bit more biased towards the experience. And the reality is the type of experience you want and the type of work you want to do will then lead you to a role. But don't feel like you need to pick a role too early on. So I very much approached it, which is I need to experience things before I can absolutely for sure say I want to be X or I want to be. Yeah, because you don't really know until you try it. And I think a lot of people probably feel a bit of disproportionate pressure to pick something before they're truly ready to agree that's actually what they want to do. I took the view that that may change over time, and to be fair, it did. My guilty pleasure is probably always going to be backing treasury and it's probably a bit of my spiritual home. But I was keen to explore kind of broader, more senior, kind of finance and business roles. But I knew I needed to build a wider skill set to get there, so I'd offer up to folks. You need to get good counsel from those around you and make sure that you are listening to folks based on the experiences that they've gained along the way. So get a cross section of folks to hear their story, but understand the path they're taking because those are invaluable. But be really clear on the types of experiences you want to have and think about what type of roles along the way that help you get those experiences. So for me, if you look at the roles I've done, definitely wanted to cover a technical, diverse treasury role and knew I wanted to step into the controllership and get myself more acclimated with the accounting function, particularly given Grid is both a US GAAP and an IFRS reporting company. So it's a great opportunity to do it. I wanted deep operational experience and the opportunity to work in a and a wide team, and then knowing that would probably help me be more competent and capable to step into a CFO role over time. And thankfully, GRID'S been awesome to me over the years and absolutely given me the opportunity to do that over the past I'd say two years both in the GAS role and then now in the New York CFO role.

Amazing advice there. And we're not quite at the end of the show but actually I was just scribbling there that that's very reflective. I'd recently because we're rerunning some of our archived podcasts, some of the top ones and stuff like that. One of the ones was episode 100 from Gary McGuire, the Global Treasure for Dow Chemicals not dissimilar surf. So he was in episode 100 for anyone listening today and and then episode 196. So not, not too long ago and just like you there Chris, he was sort of saying and again I remember scribbling down these don't be too pigeonholed, you know, with your experience and again the reflection I was going to say is maybe go with the flow. No must have this job. He said look I didn't plan this bit and they did but. And he got this breadth of experiences just as you've described there that you were sort of building this portfolio within the company exactly like he did as well and that's enabled you. I think there are a lot of people that say I must have this next role. When it doesn't come up or perhaps an outsider is hired into that the people get the sense of frustration. Why why bother? You know, just, just keep going with and you know, let, let yourself go. Would that would be one of the. You're a driven person but you sort of driven with a sense of relaxation if that's the right way to put it.

Would you agree you probably summarize it better than I do. I would absolutely agree. I'd say you've got to be prepared to take a risk because none of the things I've done over the years have not been without some element of risk and they haven't had the end don't feel like seniority is the only path to success because if you look at probably seven times out of 10 folks that progress generally take side steps along the way and you know my opportunities have always come by experiencing something at the same level but in a different capability and skill set area. And I think quite often you can get into a trap in treasury where it becomes titles specific to progression. And actually I think some of the best treasury professionals are those that have actually gained a deep skill set within the treasury world but at the same time had other experiences outside of it so they can just build a broader perspective and I think folks need to think about that on their journey. I know a lot of treasurers may disagree with me and that it needs to be a step progression within treasury. But again, I think sidestep and other finance opportunities only help you become more well rounded over time.

They can't disagree with you. They, you know, that's the, you know, they can't disagree with Gary. They can have their own opinions but they're wrong. The fact is that at the end of the day, if you were speaking of from a position other than the way you were and the same with Gary and the same with that, I think I'm being provocative there but not meaning it. What I mean though is that you can do both, you don't have to and I think too many people do become too narrow, you know, maybe use treasury to, you know, maximize you yourself across the different ways across treasury and things. Now again, we're getting towards the end of the show. Chris. I, I know that we could like a few of the other podcasts I've had recently, I keep, keep talking for hours but you're a busy man, you've got to be, you've got a job to do apparently. I don't know, you've been very giving of your time here but if you know, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes but you know, as we look to the future and you were very kind about us and you know, in the show and helping you and things like that and it was our pleasure. But reflecting back or you know, again for the listeners today, what are the takeaways you'd give them? What are the thoughts that they should be thinking about? We've got breadth of experience, maybe that's in there. But what are your thoughts?

Probably many things in that melting pot that I would say as guidance and I will say I do change my mind on guidance over time as I learn and explore my career. I'd say for those in the treasury world, don't be scared to take a risk. You have to be prepared to seek opportunities that may feel uncomfortable, that may not necessarily have an exit strategy. But I always look at the doors you close and how many you open and keep that in mind when you explore opportunities. I'd say secondly, take a longer term view of what do you want to be when you grow up. It doesn't have to be role specific, it doesn't have to be destination role. But think about the experiences you want to gain over time and where that's going to take you or where it has the potential to take you. Third thing, which I think everyone can always do more of, is build a good network. I think the treasury world is an awesome place to build a network and I think having the ability to tap into third parties, particularly banks and financial institutions, I think is invaluable in the treasury world. I think it was actually Gary McGuire. I hadn't realized he'd done two podcasts, but on one of the podcasts he really reinforced the importance of leveraging the wealth of expertise on those banking partners and financial institutions that you use to help you build your knowledge base, but at the same time making sure that you're drawing that expertise and knowledge base into the business to add value. So I thought that was great advice from Gary. And then I'd say lastly, probably dovetails in with network. Make sure you get good counsel from those around you. I never think there's bad feedback or bad advice. I think you've always just got to take it in the context in which it's given. Now everyone has a story and the advice they give is based on the story. I'd say understand the advice, understand the story and use that information to help you craft kind of how you're going to navigate, navigate your career.

Amazing. So I'm going to do a quick summary actually, before I do that. To summarize, it was actually a repeat of the hundredth episode because. But then what I've done is I then re listened to it and that's a thing I said to you because it was amazing listening back 100 episodes ago and what value bombs he gave us and the. Exactly as you said. When I went back, I was like, God, not only was he a fantastic guest, I wasn't so bad as well. I did, you know, after it took me 100 podcasts to get to. Okay, you know, now we're at 200. He's, you know, slowly getting better, you know, work in progress as we say. But I was going to say to you, as you say, be prepared to feel uncomfortable, you know, going out of your comfort zone. And again, this is very reflective of some of the amazing treasury professionals and finance professionals. Expand your network, leverage external experts and expertise. Brilliant. And listening to others advice, you know, being open to all that stuff. I think the openness is this thing that comes around to curiosity. We've got amazing Sir Chris. Can't wait to see you when I'm next in the US and thank you for your time today. It's been a great show. I know that everyone was going to get a lot of value and just again, thank you very much. So you've been an absolute superstar.

Thank you, Mike. And as I, as I opened, just urge the wider treasury community and those who are aspiring treasurers and treasury professionals to tap into the podcast again. It's a wealth of experience and knowledge and I've gained a lot from listening to my peers. And I guess it goes to you and the team for setting up the podcast and offering this up. So thank you to you and the team for that and also your help with me and my career today.

Thank you, sir. Much appreciated and look forward to catching up soon. Many thanks.

Thank you.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week and be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Sam.