Taking Smart Risks to Propel Your Career with Sandra Ramos-Alves

Foreign. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next, let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Sandra Ramos Alves. Now, I've done that twice because Sandra has an amazing name and my riches is a very easy one. But anyway, Sandra is the senior Vice president and treasurer at Bristol Myers Squibb. Now, you guys know this. We've been through a pandemic. Everyone knows it. But just for those who don't know bms, Bristol Myers Squibb are a global biopharmaceutical company. Mission is to discover, develop and deliver innovative medicines helping patients globally. I won't explain the size of the company, I won't explain Treasury. That's Sandra's job. Later on in the episode, what I'm going to do is I'm going to take Sandra back to the very beginning a few years ago now. Yeah, a couple of years. Take us back, if you would, Sandra, to how you first discovered finance, then Treasury. We're going to go through the show, we're going to talk about all these international moves. Amazing. And then later on in the show, we'll talk about the future of treasury and a couple of areas that you might be interested in. And the people listening today definitely are. I'll shut up now. Hand over the mic to Sandra. Sandra, over to you. Tell us, how did he first ever discover finance at Treasury? Over to you.

Thank you, Mike. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. So I was actually an undergrad major in accounting. So I started off my career really thinking I was going into the accounting world. I joined AT&T in August of 1995, and in September of 95, they announced trifestiture. And so ultimately I ended up moving over to Lucent Technologies in their financial Leadership Development program, at which point I had an opportunity to really work in several different organizations and just get a feel for finance. I worked essentially in treasury operations and in accounting. Did have the opportunity to spend a year in Guadalajara, Mexico, which was a wonderful experience. But when I came back to the US I really wanted to further my career in the accounting field and decided I wanted to take the CPA exam. And as such, I needed to really spend some time internal and internal audit. So I did my two years in internal audit, supported Latin America, spent a lot of time in A lot of different countries. And while I was an internal audit, I had an opportunity to actually move to Brazil to do integration work, which was actually really interesting and challenging. Spent the two years really doing a lot of budgeting and accounting work and trying to introduce US GAAP to the Brazilian entities, as we had done to local acquisitions and we needed to merge them into our existing business in Brazil. When I was done with the opportunity there, I was coming back to New Jersey specifically, I wanted to come back home. And the opportunity in treasury presented itself. It was just, I think, really good luck. They had an opportunity for an FX manager to support Latin America. So while I did not have any experience in Treasury, I had all of the contacts in Latin America from having spent so much time there.

So let me jump in there and just. So many people sort of discover treasury in the nicest way by accident, and now it's much more recognized. So this was back in just turn the century, 2000, 2001, when you made that move, Sandra, was had you heard about treasury at that stage or was it completely Treasury? What, you know, what was the. What was the ethos?

I definitely had heard about treasury because FX was a huge topic when I worked in Brazil. Every day I would ask, I would be asked, what's the FX exposure? I didn't even know what that meant, to be honest. Meant to calculate. I just didn't understand it. But I heard the question all the time and I knew that we needed to provide forecasts to the treasury organization. It really wasn't until I joined treasury that I understood what it was that they were asking for and what the purpose was and what the risk is and how to manage the risk. So it's a fantastic opportunity to really step into something completely different than I was accustomed to working in. And I was working with a wonderful group of people that were very kind with their time and with their training.

Well, let me. Again, let me jump in. So I'm going to interrupt. I'm sorry to interrupt so much, but I've got it. But you then. So I know it's a while ago, but if you can think back to that period of time and reflecting on that, if you would, you know, for other people doing that first stepping into foreign exchange. And you said they were very kind with their time, but did you actively put your hand up or. Again, this is for. We get a variety of listeners to the show. Some will be brand new to the treasury career, some will be very experienced. But, you know, is it about going, can I have a coffee with you or what would you suggest to those guys to do today?

Again, the listeners today, I did proactively reach out to them. You know, I had returned to the US during challenging times for Lucent. At the time we were going through significant headcount reductions. We were selling off part of the business. There was just a lot happening and I was aggressively looking for a challenging opportunity to rotate into. And it was just luck that I happened to hear about someone that was leaving the organization for personal reasons. And so I reached out to the contact that I had in treasury and I asked, are there opportunities in treasury you would love to learn about treasury and see? Well, if I could fit into the organization. And he said, as a matter of fact, my role is going to open up because I'm going to be taking on the regional treasurer role for the person that had left. So I said, great, can you please connect me with the hiring manager? And he did. And you know, you've, you know, my hired, the hiring manager was Fred Shacknes and you've had him on your podcast and he's brilliant. Yeah, you know, he's one of the most brilliant people I've ever worked with in treasury. And he gave me the opportunity and it was really wonderful.

So he said, go for it. Did you then think, do you know what treasury, that's going to be me for the next 20 years because you're global treasurer, where you are and everything else. So did you then think, wow, this is it, or did you start to think, oh, how did it fit with you? Because then you made your next move as well into real estate hospitality to give us a walkthrough. Do you start, oh, yeah, I'm gonna. How did it work for you at that stage, if you like.

I never in my wildest imagination thought this would be a 20 year journey, to be honest. I was still thinking, how am I going to use the cpa? And so I really thought it was going to be more of a rotation and an opportunity to learn a different part of the finance function. But as I said before, Lucent was really challenged and there were so many cutbacks and I really felt there were no growth opportunities at Lucent, given everything that was happening. And when you're looking for a job, sometimes the easiest next job is the role that you're currently in. So I started looking and this opportunity presented itself at Sendence and it was just a Treasury role, it was seamless. And I walked in and I got the job very quickly and did move on. And I moved into a Treasury role because that was the easiest thing for me at the time, Cassandra.

You know, you then were Lucent, so telecoms and things. And then you went into Ascendant, which is sort of, you know, wider. Hospitality, real estate and everything else. And then you ended up having pharmaceutical. You know, we've talked, you and I talked before the show about how people. It's portable. You know, treasury has a certain skill set so you can move between different discipline. Not disciplines, same discipline, but different industries with yourself, you move through those. What was that like for yourself? And then, you know, maybe tell us about Celgene and how you went into that role. So back to you.

I truly believe that treasury is. You can apply to any industry. So cash management is cash management. Risk management is always risk management. The industry that you support will be different, the cash flow generation will be different. But pharma has always resonated with me because, you know, it's an industry that really makes a difference in people's lives. And with the opportunity that presented itself myself at celgene back in 2005, it was really a unique opportunity and I just couldn't pass up on it. You know, at the time I actually had an opportunity to join J and J as well. So I had to choose between Johnson and Johnson and Celgene. And, you know, some, some may say that I was crazy for not having gone to J and J, which is this fantastic pharmaceutical, well embedded company. But I chose to go to Celgene, which at the Time was a $400 million company with 700 employees. It was one of those things that the company could have failed if our product did not get approved or it could have been a great success. You know, fortunately for me, it was the best decision I ever made in my career and it turned out to be the best experience of my career. We ultimately grew to be a $19 billion company. We had a unicorn and the drug that got approved. Shortly after I joined the company, I got to build an organization. We got to do so many great things and be innovative and entrepreneurial. It was just a fantastic opportunity and we were doing good for patients. So it was very fulfilling.

And did you feel that you were in treasury, you were connected to that journey? Because I, again, I've talked to a number of people, talk to Kathy, she works for a hospital group, you know, way back when. And as you said, look, I really feel that sometimes we're the custodians, a little bit of that for those guys. Did you feel that, you know, when you're a pharma company, I know that, you know, big pharma sometimes gets a bad rap, but then I think, you know, past few years in particular, people have gone, whoa, we really need those guys. Did you feel you're quite connected to that, would you say?

I absolutely feel connected. We're supporting the business. We, we provide all of the financing for business development to further enhance our pipeline. We manage the risk, we manage the P and L risk for the corporation. It just helps to manage the credit ratings for the company. There are so many things that we do in the background that support our R and D function and our sales function. I believe that treasury is an integral part of the organization.

And so you were there for a number of years. Talk us through the treasury journey. If, you know, when you got there, you joined way back when in 05, but you sort of, you grew that for so many years. How did treasury grow and develop as a function? You know, I know there was technology, there was all this stuff and you know, I see, you know, of course with you, you know, conferences and various other bits. But when you look back on that, did you see that, you know, was that the key driver or was it just treasury was continuing to grow? What was the sort of, if you were to reflect back on that time, what was it like?

So when I joined, there really wasn't much of a Treasury function. There was a bank account in the us we did not have an international function. We had to build it out. There was no FX program, There was definitely no interest rate program. There was no debt, there was no credit facility. There was absolutely bare minimum there. So it was really an opportunity to look at what can we do once we get approval, once we better build our international footprint. And it was just the most fantastic opportunity because we got to put in an international banking infrastructure from scratch. It wasn't easy, it was challenging, but we did it. We built an FX program. I did the first trade or hedge, I should say, and in December of 2005, so I still remember the actual exposure was an intercompany loan and there were some convincing to do to put on this hedge. So the program started after I joined and we went. It really wasn't until 2008 that we were able to put in a comprehensive cash flow hedge program. It took time to build. We had to change functional currencies of entities to be able to get the hedge accounting. We entered into a credit facility only in 2010. We did our first bond issuance in 2010. I mean, we literally did all first from 2005 through 2019. And it just continued to grow and the portfolio just grew. We issued our first debt, as I said, In 2010 and ultimately in 2019 when we were acquired by BMS, we had 19 and a half billion of debt. We had done well over 30 billion of business development transactions. We had done a couple of major M and A transactions. We, we just really turned what really wasn't a real function and we built a best in class organization.

Weird question, why bother? Why push yourself to that? I, I know why. We at the treasury recruitment company, we've gone through straight through processing. You know, when people do our salary survey, I wanted to give them a really easy flow of doing it, to make it. You know, that was for me and for us to increase the numbers, you know, to make it. You know, this is what I would have wanted and I put myself now with you guys, you're a support function, you're supporting the business globally and things like that. But you guys were pushing against, you know, I've seen a number of the awards and things like that. Why do you think that's important to sort of keep on, you know, because it's not just about profits all the time. You know, treasury in itself and of itself is about supporting the company. Did you just have that ethos yourself or how was that, if you like.

The culture at Celgene was just fantastic and innovative and entrepreneurial and you always were pushed to do your best and to do the right thing. And yes, part of it, a lot of it is me, I want to have a fun job and I want to do the right thing and I want to deliver value and I want to deliver results. And so we were just always really excited to venture into the next phase of the company. We had all worked at larger corporations before, so we knew the art of the possible and we knew we could even take it to the next step and do it better and have more fun with it. And so we had an incredible drive to really do the right thing and put the best technology in place and put the best processes and really work hard to deliver value to support the company.

And then obviously the, well, the group got acquired and you know, there were a number of changes. We had people, as we said before with Mike Bradley on the show, so we'll put a link to his great podcast, great guy and stuff like that on the, on the show. But with yourself, you know, a takeover can be unsteady for people, unsettling and things like that. But you've been through that, you've sort of continued to Develop your career. Any tips for people listening today if they're in a similar situation, I'm sure, or they're thinking, oh, grumps will be. What was your ethos and how has it been since? Because obviously on and grown and everything else, it's your opportunity to sort of maybe reflect on that, if you would. So, you know, back to you being.

In a position where you're being acquired. It can be incredibly stressful. But, you know, sometimes you have to take risks. And I feel like I've taken several risks throughout my career. And one of my calculated risks was whether I wanted to stay with Bristol Myers Squibb. It was a different location that require a move for me and my family. But I really thought about the long game and whether there was an opportunity for me to grow. And I really felt there was a chance that I could grow to ultimately become treasurer, you know, and it certainly played out well for me as I was incredibly successful and was able to get it and a lot quicker than I ever anticipated. But sometimes if you're, if you don't take the risks and if you don't ask for things, they don't come to fruition. So what I have learned over the last few years is you have to be vocal about what you want and you have to tell people what you want. Otherwise, you know, it just may not happen. Things don't get delivered to you on a platter.

Where do you see it next? You've been through obviously blooming challenging time worldwide and everything else. And maybe, maybe reflect on that a little bit if you like. How do you guys cope with pandemic? But then also, where do you see the future of Treasury? Where do you see it developing? We're not, as I say, we're not at the end of the show yet. I'll let you off soon, don't worry. But joking aside, you know what, what are you seeing? What's it been like? Where's it developing, would you say?

So what we learned through the pandemic is that we can surpass challenges quite easily. Well, maybe easily is a little flippant, but we can do it. We can work really hard. We have figured out how to do it. We have learned that we need to change our ways of working. There are better, more innovative ways that could make all of our lives easier. In terms of how we do work, my focus now is on the organization, looking at our people, looking at our processes and our technology. How do we build a best in class organization with the best talent and with seamless processes. And with the best technology to really take us into the next decade, if you will, it's really thinking about the future and how do we catch up with all of the technology that's out there and how do we deliver better results.

We spoke before Sundar, delivering a session later on in the year, AFP and about personal brand, but also networking. And I know that in the past you've been interviewed by various publications. Lovely Treasury Today, which we love, and those guys and stuff. But one of the key things there is you've. And I was looking back on my notes, you love the power of networking, which I do as well. But then doing another session for New York and we were talking about, yeah, how do I network? I'm a Treasury professional. I'm busy enough doing my day job and Pandemic hasn't helped by, you know, really focusing just on the nuts and bolts. And now we'll get back in the offices, we're meeting people and have I got enough time in the, you know, the only set number of hours a day. What tips would you give to people? Networking? I know you, you've seen it as about being very crucial for growing your career, but in your. Great at it. But maybe if it's someone listening today, they're not a great networker. They're saying, they go, oh, God, yeah, it's all very well for you, but you worked at it, you know, for the guys listening, guys listening today, you know, how would you explain that to them? You know, how do you encourage that of your team members, your peers and things? What are your sort of tips for those guys?

If, you know, you know, it's still something that I have to work very hard at. You know, I'm an introvert, so it's actually very difficult for me, but there's lots of avenues that you can venture into, you know, partner with your banking relationships. The banks all have opportunities for conferences, for different things. For treasury professionals, it's actually quite easy to meet other treasury professionals through the banking network. You can join the NOI Group, where I've been a member of the NOI group since 2008 and I've met so many FX professionals, assistant treasurers and now treasurers throughout different industries. There are opportunities out there and we have to really seize them and try our best to network. And you don't always have to network with the highest level of the organization. You don't have to feel like you need to meet all the treasurers or all the CFOs. You can start with, you know, focusing on your peers and building relationships with your peers and the relationships will evolve.

Sandra, just a quick one there. NOI Group. Now we've had Joseph Noi way back when as one of our guests. Can you explain in your words who NOI Group are? This isn't the sales pitch for them, but yeah, you guys should join them. They're amazing. Joe's is amazing. But then who they are a bit what they do very shortly, but also why for you in that safe environment and what they call it, Charterhouse rules or whatever it is. So what that's like for you and having that safe space. Can you just maybe again for the listeners, sure.

So NOI Group is an organization that has several different subgroups that you participate in. So when I was doing FX specifically at Celgene, I joined their FX peer group. And so you would meet twice a year in person and you know, with a group of 20 other companies or 30, and you would talk about the topics of the day. If you're having challenges, you know, when you have questions, you know, how do you do X, Y or Z? You could ask at the meetings, you can ask through informal network through on email and people share and people are happy to share and speak with you. And you know, they have assistant treasurer groups, they have treasurer groups, they have capital markets groups. So it's really, they have ventured out and they have every, almost nearly every functional area within Treasury. So you're able to meet peers throughout the industry and you know, as you move on to different areas within treasury and you meet more of those people and sometimes I can give an example. A few months ago I saw an article posted on LinkedIn about something that a company, Micron had done. And I remembered that I know the assistant treasurer from our days in the FX group. So I reached out to him. You know, that had nothing to do with fx, but it's, you know, I reached out to him. So would you be willing to talk to us about what you're doing with your investments? It provides you an opportunity to build really good relationships so that you can tap into in the future.

And I don't want this to be a complete loving for NOI Group, but let's, let's do it. We've already, you know, we've started it, so we'll finish it. I love the, the fact is it's sometimes frustrating because I want to know who they're talking to. Like, oh, that sounds amazing. But it's all covered under confidentiality. So you guys in treasury feel completely safe if that's the right word, but as well as, as you say, functional. But also there's industry groupings as well. So it's like cross functions. You have cross functions, boom. But you also have different industry groups as well. And I think that's interesting because, you know, different industries have different. But you know, you can be talking to a competitor per se, but you're not directly talking about it. But the fact is, because it's not published, it makes it much more comfortable. I've spoken to Joseph about it and some of the other guys there and I love the work those guys do, you know, which. So that's enough of those then. Let's. Let's also talk about maybe as we, you know, we're not that far off the end of today's show. I mean, it's amazing, but as you look at the future of treasury, you come out of a very challenging period of time and life and everything else. Where do you see treasury going? Obviously I was trying to persuade Sandra earlier on in the show to say, definitely come to afp. I'll be there and we can talk about this. But you've also got a day job to do, apparently. Whatever. The joking aside, where do you see it going in the next few years, what the next develops head of this function, you're leading it, big leader in the company. Where do you see it going to for the next level, if you know.

So I do think that technology is going to be huge in innovating on the technology front so we can streamline our processes and have time for teams to really do more analytical work. You know, the risk management is always going to be the same. You're always going to have FX exposures or interest rate exposure that you need to manage. I don't think that some things will ever change. You're always going to have investments. It's the tools that are available and availed to us that will potentially change and hopefully improve our day to day. But you also have to have the right team and the right mindset to get there. You have to have openness to technology and to the innovation and just, you.

Know, just before we do wrap up for today, because I know you've got your next meeting, you're very busy, but you know, with yourself and managing your team if you like, and looking at those, you know, again, sort of not to recover all the ground we've talked about when you're coaching those junior team members, you, you've been there, you've been there, done it, worn the T shirt, everything else. What are you Encouraging the team members to focus on, you know, are you saying to them, you know, you should go and get qualifications or, you know, move out the function or what are the things you think that if, if you reflect that they should be doing.

Would you say, Well, I guess there's multiple things. One, I spend a lot of time actually encouraging my team to speak up. So there's, you know, the folks that are really in the weeds. They're the ones that can come up with the ideas to improve our ways of working and changing. They know where the pain points are. So, you know, it's encouraging people to speak up, to talk, you know, so that we can innovate and improve our ways of working. If people want to really expand their financial skill set, it is important, important. And Bristol Myers Squibb definitely encourages movement within the organization, and we do have a lot of movement. And people generally move around every two years. So to the extent you don't want to be strictly a Treasury professional, I certainly encourage team members to rotate throughout finance and learn the business and learn different skill sets. And at some point they want to return to Treasury. They will always have a home and Treasury. But it is important to do, especially when you're younger and you have the ability to move laterally. It's much harder when you're a seasoned professional. You know, for me, it's going to be a lot harder to move into a different function at my level. But, you know, when, when you're younger in your career, that's the time to really take the risks and to move around. And if it doesn't work out, it's okay, you just move somewhere else.

Yeah, just keep moving.

Yeah, so don't settle, don't worry.

I love the phrase. Recently someone said, I see a few times on, you know, usual LinkedIn stuff, you can move. You're not a tree. It's like, yeah, okay, you're not stuck there. Yeah, keep moving and stuff. Okay, so, so amazing conversation. You know, we're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes, but as we've done each and every week, I mean, I thought this podcast would last maybe 10, 15 weeks. We're at episode over 200. This will probably be about episode 210 or something like that. Crazy. But as you look back and again, you and I have messed up a number of times. But when you think about top tips for you, if someone had said, do study, do this or these are the other things, you've given lots of nuggets and stuff there. But to Close the show today. What are the top tips you would give to someone listening today? They're in the car and you think, oh, wow, and maybe they'll get out quickly. I'll write that down. That's something they should do. What are your thoughts for people to take away today, if you would?

I'd say based on my experience, take the risk if. If there's an opportunity. Usually risks pay off. Speak up, tell people what you want out of your career. Own your career. Don't expect things to be delivered to you and really just do your best. Be your authentic self, you know, it will always come through and do the right thing, you know, always lead with integrity. I think that's kind of how I try to lead my life and it's worked out quite well for me. Yeah, you totally blessed.

You've done all right. Yeah, like sort of global treasurer for a farmer like this. No, it's fine. So just look at that. Don't be afraid to. Well, don't be afraid. Listen to speakers up, you know, there you go. Don't be afraid to both do. Own your own career. And actually I've got a lovely email from Saud earlier saying, you know, you're going to get more authentic self, you know, because we're gonna get into this. And I said, yeah, it's a Friday afternoon, I do feel for you, but yeah, but be authentic and leave with integrity. Amazing piece of advice. If anyone just took one of those, they'd be maybe half as successful as you, but if they did all of them, who knows? So, Sandra, amazing to chat. Thank you for your time. Can't wait to see you once again in real life. You know, we'll put your LinkedIn details and show not. And just thank you very much for your time. It's been amazing to chat.

Thank you, Mike. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Lovely. Thank you. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds. Leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much, and I can't wait to see you soon.