The Importance of Technology in Treasury with Séverine Le Blévennec

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next and this week's show, I'm delighted to be joined by Severin Leblenic, the Senior Director Europe Mideast and Africa treasury at Honeywell. So for those that don't know, Honeywell International is American multinational, they're a conglomerate that produce commercial engineering, aerospace. Now, Severin actually explained a bit more about the company because they've spun off a number of companies recent times and, you know, rejigged it and everything else. But Severin herself, she supports over 460 affiliates in 55 countries. She runs the in house bank for the group. She's also the global lead for Treasury Technology as well. And she actually joined Honeywell way back in 2006. So she ran the in house bank, all these different projects, cash management investments, EU regulations, the lot. And she's got real understanding when we spoke recently for Treasury Technology. So we'll get into that. Also Severin and the team, they've won a number of different awards. I think it's great recognition for them. But as I say each and every week, you know, that's enough for me. Let's get Severin to Perhaps you could take us back to the dim distant past when you first ever discovered finance and treasury and how you first ever started, if you would. Over to you.

Well, I started indeed in finance. I studied finance, so I wanted a finance job and more or less when I started, I took the first finance job that was suggested to me. Probably I should have asked more questions at the time because I quickly got bored in that environment and despite looking for more assignments, could see that I could not develop myself enough in that. So I stayed for six months which they had asked me to commit at minimum and then very quickly I fell into treasury by chance, by complete chance at the time it was in 1999, I didn't honestly, despite my finance studies, I did not really understand and know what treasury was. It was till the inception. I felt quite well as I arrived at GMAC treasury center. So it was the financial arm of General Motors, a pretty big treasury where treasury was basically the in the machine because the activity was close to a bank activity where you lend money to people and collect from the banks. Started a bit by chance and very quickly I felt that's a place I like very Dynamic, a lot to learn, moving environment, speaking with many kind of different stakeholders, very creative. And yeah, my passion is still there after that many years. And I really don't think of myself going out of treasury.

And when you were there you sort of started in the Brussels center. Lot of people will know but some, perhaps the US listeners won't understand so much that Brussels and Belgium is a big hub. There are a number of treasury hubs there. So you were working for gmac, the US corporate, what was the sort of structure there? And coming in you come into the Brussels center, how were they structured? Were you all things to everyone except for North America or how did it work?

So we were pretty independent. We had a 14 billion balance sheet managed out of Europe. You had the in house bank as well at the time it was before the euro so lots of FX between European currencies and also other currencies. And when I arrived we were seven people. I stayed there for seven years and when I left we were 14. There was definitely an increased complexity in the job in the company given that it was the time that the auto industry went into trouble and does the financing too. So when I arrived they were A1P1 mostly funded. It was half, half market and bank funding but with huge unused bank capacity. And as the ratings got affected due to car business, not due to the GMAC business. But still we had to be ever more creative. So we entered into new products like securitization. We did a first 1 billion deal in Europe. It was pretty innovative. And then negotiating some kind of secured lines with the banks that never done before. So it was very interesting because I grew from a back office to front office to negotiating credit lines, to securitization to secure the lines. So I followed basically the hotspots of the company over those seven years. But it was a very small structure with lots of responsibility and lots of freedom. Of course we had regular daily contacts with our colleagues in the US but a lot of autonomy which I think was really beneficial because the European market is so different from the US market especially in that respect.

And when you say it's different, what do you mean by that? Is it, you know, there's a lot more cash management, domestic cash over there or is it, you know, there's a lot more capital raising? What do you mean? What's the contrast?

So definitely there is more cash management in Europe but when I was at GMAC that was not the aspect that was the most important. But we relied a lot more on uncommitted credit lines with Banks, a lot of bilaterals. We did also private placements. So a lot more variety in the funding types. The capital markets themselves are also more different. Also different. For instance, the ECP market is not a market with ultra short maturities like you can have in the us so it's a different way of working with a lot more different counterparties. We were working with 80 different banking groups. Right. Often we were bigger than the banks we were borrowing money from. We were imposing our documentation to borrow money from the banks. It was really interaction with a lot, a lot of different people and the ability to customize and not have just one size fits all approach. Right. We were really negotiating with each bank to understand what were their constraints. In some countries it was easier for them to lend us money than other countries. Depending on their own structure, Depending on our structure. Because in some countries we had the status of a bank. So for ratios it was different for them. And sometimes some banks wanted to give us a big line and preferred us to use it. Some banks wanted to give us a line and preferred us not to use it unless we need it. So really a lot of moving parts. While in the US they, they were mostly focused on capital markets and syndicated credit lines that are mostly backstop facilities and securitization. That was also very interesting. That's what I mean, with differences in the markets.

Yeah. And you were there sort of coming on seven years and your first real start in treasury became an analyst and then senior treasury analyst and took on things. Before we move on to you joined Honeywell, a lot of the listeners to the show, they'll be in similar situation. There'll be maybe a Treasury analyst in Belgium or Luxembourg or everything else. And they're sort of trying to make their an impression and they're trying to sort of develop their careers. What sort of advice would you give those guys at that early stage? What were you like as a Treasury analyst coming up through the sort of the function and coming up through the company? What was your ethos?

What I really liked at the time was really the fact that I was every time in the hotspots. Right. When I was there, when we launched the ECP program. Well, that was exciting. We had a lot of new processes. How do you manage all those workflows? We were all in Excel right. At the time. You had to pre advise payments to banks. Lots of bureaucracy that we needed to make. Right. Because it was really big figures every day then, you know, that was the most exciting to be able really to be when it was the point where Things were happening. That's where I was. So. And it just was very natural, right. It was not by design as such, but just because I was open and listening and I understood that how. Okay, now this is getting interesting. When there were opportunities, I just, you know, put up my hand and say, okay, yeah, I would be interested in learning and helping out there. And I only got. Yes, it's really the ability to understand that the market moves and how this is impacting the company and how we can help adapt to make our job really key and adding value. Especially in a company where funding is, as I said, their prime material to get money in, to be able to lend it out. I think probably what they like in me and why they moved me up, it's because I was very creative and not afraid of change and reassessing all the time. What were the possibilities at that specific time?

And then you made the move across to Honeywell. How did that come about? And how did you. You went in there as the manager when you joined, but quite rapidly got promotion and things. Was that on the cards from day one or, you know, you joined Honeywell way back in 2006. So what, 13 years ago now perhaps talk about, you know, how they sort of dragged you kicking and screaming out of gmac. How did it happen? How did you get the roll at Honeywell on.

On one side at gmac they had told me, Severin, you've moved around, you've seen everything here in the. Etc. We would like to move you forward. Tell us where you want to go, where at gm, at gmac, where in the world to do what and we probably will be able to accommodate. But let us know. And then I looked at what was possible for me in the company. I really, I was in love and passionate by Treasury. So I decided I wanted to stay in Treasury. I was interested also investors relations. But you know, being a women out of Europe, I didn't think I was probably the best person to carry that kind of job. Then in terms of location, there was Australia, very nice location, but pretty boring in terms of Treasury, a lot less variety than in Europe. And then you had basically the head office in Detroit for family reasons. Detroit really didn't match. My husband would have followed me, no problem, but I didn't think it was a good decision for him to go there. And so I was in those thoughts when I was approached by a headhunter for the position at Honeywell. And my feelings were. And it got right because it's always difficult to assess from outside but that Honeywell was a strong treasury. Not a Treasury where you know you're just a satellite of the cfo, but the treasury where it's a real world. Of course we report to the cfo, but we are a real function with our own autonomy and responsibility. And second, it was flipping from the borrowing side to the cash side and cash management where I could learn more which I mean from start my goals in my professional career were work in finance and keep learning my whole. So that was suiting me. It was not that easy to leave GMAC because I was emotionally really bound with the company. They treated me very well and I learned so much. I really had nothing to reproach. I worked very hard. But so much, I learned so much. But I thought it was really the good thing to do for me and for my career. And I also understood from my interview with my to be boss, Marie Asri Dubois that this position would be what I wanted it to be so that I would keep in that with that flexibility and that I wouldn't just stop on one. Of course I had a list of responsibilities, but this could expand. So I made the big jump which was with a few sleepless nights to make the change. But I never regretted my decision.

And you joined Honeywell. What was Honeywell like at the time? And perhaps you could describe the business then, business now and as it develops in the future just again people will have maybe heard the name but they don't know the company. Maybe you could explain for the listeners who don't know about it. I mean you're massive global, 55 countries. But you know what's Honeywell about In.

Total, Honeywell was already in more or less 100 countries. In EMEA it was like if I remember 34 countries and around 350 affiliates. So slightly smaller than our present landscape, but nevertheless already a huge conglomerate, mostly in business to business at the time, also a little bit in the business to consumer. Not a huge name in Europe on the street given the the predominance of business to business activities. But already a huge conglomerate. I think over the years we have become ever more on really the mega trends on connectivity, on energy savings. And so I think our portfolio is getting ever more close to things I think really exciting going on the market. It has become of course ever more pressure like everywhere ever more pressure on productivity, on cost cutting. So you have to take that right and to some extent pushes us to be in because we have to do evermore, evermore, evermore with ever less, ever less, ever less. So there is no way out than using technology, revamping, optimizing. If I look at the in house bank, our metrics are pretty impressive. We still manage the in house bank with one main person doing the daily activities and then we have the volume of transactions have more than tripled over the time that I've been here. So the company I think is for shareholders, certainly a great pick for employees. Very challenging, very interesting. I think a company that is really a flagship and treasury over the years I think we have won some recognition on the market. So it's very nice to see how we can be going in the right direction and get leverage and listening from our peers and all our providers.

And I've got to say I've known several M for a number of years and always admired the work you've done. And that's not just flattery. Just because one of the things we recently sat down, had a coffee and one of the things that absolutely blew me away is some treasury directors I talk to, they when they want to embrace technology and things, they bring in their system provider or they go get a couple of treasury systems manager say, oh yeah, implement this, implement this. That's not your ethos. You've always got down amongst it yourself. You've even recently done training courses yourself so you understand about this robotics and process automation. And I was just like sitting there as I'm talking to a Treasury director. So yeah, yeah, I know how to use it, Mike. So I can actually tell people, I'm like, right, okay, so you really get what perhaps you can explain to the, to the listeners why you feel that's so important and how you've achieved that because you know, you've really embraced it yourself on a personal level, not just as a company. Perhaps you could explain that for the people listening in today.

Thank you. Well, I think it's, it's very important to have a strategy and a vision where you think you can go, what you can achieve, what are the pain points of the team, how you can help if you, if you have a good dialogue with them, you understand what they spend their time on, what, what are their frustration points, et cetera, that you know where to improve, where you should focus your attention on. And then, okay, you can, as you say, you can just rely on external providers. But I think to me it's important to have a very pragmatic approach. The vision is the first step. But then being pragmatic and being able to dive into whatever details is needed, I think makes it something that is really useful. I would definitely not call Me, a geek or a very techy person by nature. So when I design a process, I design it thinking, okay, my grandmother should be able to understand how it works, right? And not my team as my grandmother. But so it means that it should be something extremely user friendly and light for the user. And you put all the complexity in the programming, in the design of the process, you put all the complexity behind so that afterwards for the user it's so clear cut, so simple that he wonders why it was not done before, right? On rpa like other topics, right? When I, when I see that there is something that I think, okay, rpa. I went to a seminar from Pricewaterhouse. They were speaking of RPE and AI for finance function. It was not at all directed at Treasury. It was just a breakfast seminar very close by my office early morning. Okay, I just want to listen. I'm interested to see maybe there is something for us in there. And they were a little bit surprised by all my many questions as a treasurer. But you know, it starts there, right? Trying to understand what they do, what can be done. And okay, they've not done, they had not done anything about Treasury. But very quickly, in two, three days I said this could be for Treasury. I have this topic that I think we could really apply to it, but where do I start? So I wanted to know better. I just called the people at peewic and asked them, how can I learn? Where can I start? And they gave me this UiPath Academy website and that's where I started. And it's just for free and it's just okay some weekends, Sundays and even nights, but getting an understanding on what can the tool really do. By taking my programmer certificate, it was definitely pushing myself outside of my responsibilities and comfort zone. But then you really understand what can be done at the end. Globally, it was another software that was selected. But it's all the same logic. So I can really know what are the possibilities of the tool. So, and you know, I think each technology brings its own possibilities. If you want it to work, you need to be understanding. It's just another language, right? Just like if you have a. You're going to China. I cannot imagine living in China and not understanding sufficiently to understand what moves people, right? Same it's a new technology, understand the language of that technology. What does it have in the guts, in its guts. And that's what I did. And in the meantime we have implemented some workflows that are really making the life of my senior treasury analyst a lot more interesting and efficient.

How do they do that. How does that work? If you like. I'm not talking about down in the nuts and bolts sort of thing, but more people are listening in again. Oh, hang on. Perhaps we should be thinking about this. How does it work in that sense?

So first you need to design your process. So that's the heart, that's the heart of any technology implementation I've done is completely revisit your process. Having in mind what is the technology you're going to use? So have a process that is very lean, efficient, that is user friendly, transparent, avoid any black box. If there is possibility of mistake, you must spend as much time on the possibilities of errors, what I call the unhappy flow, than on the if there is a mistake, what kind of mistakes could there be? What could be the cause, what could be the remediation? So that if people get an alert, it's not just an alert saying it doesn't work, but saying, okay, we have this kind of problem and this is what you need to do to fix it. So start with, you start with design a very good process and then because it's rpa, you need to break this process in very tiny, small, very small pieces that can be programmed. But RPA is a technology which is not invasive and it's just like you show it to a child coming or my grandmother again sitting next to me and say, okay, you take the mouse in your right hand, you click on the first number that you see there you do copy, you go there, you do paste. You have to break it into very small pieces like you would do on someone without a brain. RPA robot does not have a brain. So it's very simple. Again, my grandmother has a brain, right? So it's just the art of making something very meticulous. First, know exactly what you want to process, to do. Second, understand the pieces that are sensitive. In treasury, you have to be very careful about the timing and the scheduling of the task. Of course, you have also to be very careful about controls, et cetera. Right? I think it's honest to me, this is not difficult. To be honest, it's not difficult. It's just knowing what you want to do. And of course if you start from, from a situation where you don't have any basis, you, you don't start from doing all your treasury in Excel to rpm. You need to use each technology for what this technology can bring you, right? You can use interfaces, you can use tms, you can use plenty of various technologies that complement each other and you're not going to do RPA Development for something that you can do. But RPA is really good when you need to navigate between different systems to collate information from different sources, manipulate them a little bit and then, then always keep in mind where do you want the human in the loop. Right. To keep the control, to keep the essence of our job. And the analysis part.

Yeah, it's great. I mean, and that's one of the things that I think people listening blew me away when we were having our coffee recently and you were telling me how you did this study and you know, and everything else and it goes back to this, you know, got so many treasures listening. Oh no, no. I have someone to do that for me. But you really understand it from A to Z. Not that you have to do it all yourself, but once you then understand that you can, then I. You said that once you understand it then you can coach other people to do it. But unless you understand it, you can't. So.

Yeah, and you can challenge also the code a lot more and not take no for an answer.

Yeah, exactly. And certainly just a little bit more, you know, digging down into you being the director there for Honeywell in Brussels. What's been happening? What have you, how have you seen? Obviously there's been a lot of changes within treasury, not least a lot of automation and everything else. But are there other ways that treasury has changed in your time that you've been there since, you know, I Croms is 13 years. So how has that changed also? Maybe Honeywell's changed as well in that time, hasn't it?

Yes, yes. At Honeywell we've had numerous acquisitions, some divestitures recently, huge spin offs. So a lot of M and E activities entering to new markets. Lots of markets in Eastern Europe, in Africa. Not always the easiest ones of course, over the recent years and as I said, our portfolio has become ever more connected, ever more a mix of hardware and software. The mega trends in the world. In terms of treasury, we just discussed technology that has been taking a lot more part I think in all treasuries around the world. TMS have developed, you have a rise out of site fintechs, you have rpa, AI soon, et cetera. The control environment has changed a lot, especially since I started at gmac. At the time you didn't even have Sarbanz Oxley in terms of controls. When you look back you think how is it I was doing all this myself? How much of a trust they had? Right. Regulations, of course they've had a huge impact as well on the corporates themselves, but on the banks being affected and then of course this change their strategy and their product offering sanctions. There has been before, but definitely sanction countries and business, you can see that it's ever more difficult to manage. I think generally in treasury project management has become ever bigger part of everyone's work at all level. People are luckily getting a bit away from the transactional activities which still need to take place. But when you put automation place, it takes less of your time, so it's more strategic. Now what remains and did not change, it's still a people business, right, where you need to be able to communicate with bankers, with businesses with it, with tax, with illegal people, understand regulations, etc. So it remains a people business where you connected with a lot of different type of profile of people we make to understand the market trends and how to shape your strategy in connectivity with all your stakeholders.

And is that your favorite thing about the role? Would you say that all that relationship stuff.

You got me, you got me, right? Yes, absolutely. That's what I love. It's this fun of talking it with it people, tax with tax people etc. I think it's really fun to understand every everyone's needs and be creative to make it work for everyone. Right? Same with your team. Understand what moves them, what are their hurdles, what are their priorities in life, how can we make them more happy at work, more efficient? I think that's the place for creativity. When you add a mix of all those different type of profile and needs and requirements and of course the company requirements to start with. I think it's definitely what I like not to have just one type of profile of interaction and with that team.

I think you've got a team of eight. I think we spoke about before. What do you like as a boss? What do you like as a leader, manager, people person? I know you're very strong on those skills, but you talk about that then obviously we, you know, we as the treasury recruitment company, but very much into the people aspect and understanding how you coach those guys, what sort of level structure and you know, how do you get the best out of the treasury analyst and assistant through to, you know, your deputy sort of thing, you know, how do you lead them?

I think it's. It's an area where definitely you improve all your life, right? I think it's. And you need to adapt to each person. Each person is different, each person has a different profile, different set of weaknesses and strengths and you want to keep them build on their strengths and still try to improve slowly on their weaknesses. I Think it's important to use the people on what they are good at. You can of course make a very nice plan and think okay, I'm going to put xyz, blah blah blah, a nice plan. But if this plan does not correspond to the people's appetite and skills, it won't work. So you need to have. Sometimes the structure is a little bit weird, but it fits the capabilities of the people. And I try to me as a manager, I think it's important to be with a resource for them that they know they can come to me with whatever kind of issue and I'll be supporting them. Whether it's giving them ideas on how to fix or if you it's going giving them support. Even on personal issues, I think it's very important. Generally speaking when I hire I really focus on the soft skills. I want people to be working well together. The technical skills, you can always learn them to someone. It's very easy when you typically have. Everything we do here is very well documented so that we don't have this black box effect on technology. It's very easy when someone brought in to get him up to speed. It takes a bit of time. Time. But you always manage that. The soft skills are the piece where that makes a difference and that makes the team spirit very important. And that's also where I spent in fact most time with my team. And it's the most difficult to change, to be honest. Right. But it's so nice when you see people developing and when you say okay, when that person came in, he knew that and was able to do that kind of things and now that's where they are. And it's very important in a company like Honeywell where you are always challenged to do more and where the level of sophistication of the job is evolving any day. Right. So you need a team to be able to follow that rhythm, very intense rhythm.

Where do you see treasury developing? Where do you see the future of Treasury?

Treasury, yes. Technology. It will remain a way to be able to assess and manage all the things we need to manage and be ever more a strategic partner for the whole finance function and the business and not just transaction based Treasury. I think what is also very important is to become really a catalyst and build bridges between the pure treasury function and the other parts of finance organization. Often for instance, we are the entry point for fintechs to approach us and many times some products are not really touching sometimes none of the points that we do in treasury, but they are finance products and we can See the value. So it's important that we take this energy because it's not in big organization to try and find who are really the people that we can bring together and present to them and have them unlock the value that can be in those products, which can be often disruptive for their KPIs, which can be disruptive in terms of technology, which can be. But where the bottom line there can be huge benefits for the corporation. And I think for me the new function of a treasurer is of course, course, run the house properly, make sure processes are state of the art, make sure people develop properly, that we deliver on any activity, et cetera, but also be really the partner for the whole of the finance function. And sometimes for things they don't know that they need, right. It's really have them break the silos, break the silos within the finance function. But it's maybe I'm a person, right. But I think and, and evermore I can see at Honeywell, for instance our IT function being also more agile and being open to hear those topics. I think that's an important evolution of the role of the treasurer.

I think I've heard described by a couple of other sort of treasurers that I've spoken to that very much. It's sort of an ambassadorial role. So you're the ambassador for all this new technology is coming out the company and a lot of the time the CFO is in the nicest way pushing the treasure out in the front of it and you know, there's their shield, if you like saying, right, can you assess it and tell us what's going to actually bring us value and what's not, you know, what should we be bringing on board and things? Because it's very, you know, treasury and it's by its very nature is very forward focused. So it sounds like that's really what you're embracing, if you like.

Exactly. And with my new piece of role of global treasury lead for technology, I think it's one of the things that I want to initiate and it's not easy, right. We are away from the head office, right. Lots of decisions are taken over there. It's difficult in this huge organization to understand the process owners. The process owners themselves are sometimes disconnected from the base and not always knowing the real issues, the practical issues that the base are experiencing because they are focused on their objectives and their own vision. It's not easy, but it makes it for me. It's really, I have passion, as you can maybe hear, and it's really by Looking. We have now so much wealth where you can look out of the box. And it's not a matter of improving your margin by 10 basis points, 20 baby bonds, but just by 5%. Right. It's just very disruptive. Right. It's difficult because means asking people to do things that are not assigned to them. In an environment with a lot of pressure on cost and very lean stuffing, I'm pretty sure things can be done. You need to find the right people and build bridges. Build those bridges, indeed. Be an ambassador. And sometimes we think there could be value, but we cannot know if there is value because it's not our process. Right. So we can be wrong, of course, but at least we can give people the opportunity to save or not, depending.

On the value we're giving them. Options. Aren't you? And I think, you know, one of the things that people. Yeah. And people will listen to today's show and they'll, you know, you'll get that enthusiasm for you and your passion. Passion for it, which I, I know is infectious because when we have our ketchups and coffees and things like that, you know, it's something you're really embracing. And I think people will listen to and say, oh, actually they will want you in their network. So one of the things we will do is put in the show notes, your LinkedIn profile. But as we discussed before the show and we do every week on the show when we wrap up, can you perhaps tell, you know, the audience if they look back over your career and they say, do you know what that's. I want to be. I want to be like Severin. I want to have that passion but also have a career that follows in a similar fashion to you. What advice, you know, final pieces of closing advice would you give to people if they want to do the same as you? You know, we spoke before about some of the other guests we've had. Sarah Jane from GSK and Mark from Johnson Controls and things. But you've got some similar bits of advice, but also some slight differences as well. So perhaps you can explain those to the listeners as we wrap up today's show.

Sure. The first one, I guess you, you will have noticed it's really get out of your comfort zone. Don't miss an opportunity to learn, whether it's from peers from the web, from white papers. There is plenty of knowledge and of course, take a bit of your private lifetime, maybe. But it's so interesting. Invest in yourself, invest in your knowledge and don't be shy and don't Censor yourself. Don't think, oh no, this I cannot do. Honestly, you would have asked me two years ago, can you program rpa? I would have said, what? No way. But just give it a try and you'll discover that you have unlimited resources. Another thing I think very important is understand the market trends outside your company. In your company, where is the company moving? Where is the strategy of the company moving? And be sure that what you do is really aligned with your company strategy. Spend your time on what will add value and what will make a change. We all have some work that we just need to do that nobody will know and we know needs to be done. And it needs to be done definitely. It's not a matter of just doing what is high profile profile, but you need to always keep your focus and take the time. Because we tend to do things that people are telling us are urgent and forget that this is important and there can be a lot of value there. So try really to have an alignment between your efforts and what is the strategy of the company and the market trend. Another thing that for me personally is probably not so typical in the market, I would say don't let your ego drive your life and your career. Often people have an idea, I want to be a manager, I want to be a director. Director. But a director in one company may be a manager in another one and a manager in one company, maybe a VP in another one. So really look what is behind the job. Will you learn? Will you be able to add the value? Will you have something interesting? Touching. Very different touching point. Does the whole job make sense for you, for your family? Will you be happy doing that job? If you're not happy, you cannot perform well. I don't believe in thinking, oh, I'm going to take the this position for two, three years. I will hate it, but it's good for my career. It cannot be good for your career if you hate it. I think you need really to ask questions and assess the whole package. What is the quality of the team? How is the reporting line? How is the corporate culture? So I think that's really important. And forget about your ego. Maybe you will have a better evolution by doing something that which on paper does not look as sexy but behind there is really meat to it. As a woman, I would say say choose your partner, right? And probably as a mentor. That's probably someone that will think that your success is his or her success. I think it's that supports you and is proud of you whatever you undertake. I think it's very Important as a strength. Try to have this mix between understanding and shaping a strategic vision. But don't forget to be pragmatic and detailed enough that you understand the nitty gritties and can make things happen. Because if you stay at the strategic level, you don't really make sure things happen. If you stay at the lower level, then you don't know the direction. Then you also don't make happen the right things to happen. Try to have this right balance and generally speaking, don't lose your passion. Try to like what you do, love what you do. You will have more convincing power and you will get people to move with you. I would say the first things that I would think of as advice.

Amazing piece of advice there. So I've been scribbling notes that I always do. So first, first of all, invest in yourself, number one. Number two, join in the strategy. So, you know, align your personal and company strategy. Get those two working together. One of my favorites, don't be ego driven. I think there are a couple of people out there that perhaps let their ego, as you say, ride over perhaps the practical constraints about their career. You know, perhaps think about it a bit more. But as you say, be pragmatic about your career. And the last one, as everyone will have heard, passion, you know, be passionate about your career and people will join you on that journey. And oh well, Severin, amazing, thank you for your time today. I think, as I say, we'll put your details in the show notes. If people want to connect and you think it's right to have the network, please connect with Severin. She's an amazing lady and you'll see by the host of different awards, you know, she really is a leader for treasury and does lots of great stuff. All remains for me to say is thank you very much for your time today. You've been an absolute superstar.

Thank you very much for your kind support.

Pleasure. Thanks ever. Thanks.

Thank you.