The Journey to Treasury Excellence: Embracing Change and Finding Your Passion with Carol Thurnheer

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to Flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. This week's show I'm joined by Carol Thurn here, the manager of International treasury or Helion Palion are a world leading consumer health company with a clear purpose to deliver better everyday health with humanity. Leading brands that they have are built on science, innovation and human understanding. They've got a strong portfolio of brands and are well positioned to play a vital role for people across the world. They have oral health, they have over the counter medicines, pain, restraint, respiratory, digestive and others. Carol will talk a little bit more about the business and how it came out of GSK and everything else later on in the show. We're as we do each and every week, we're going to go right back to the beginning. I've known Carol for many years, since I originally met her over in Luxembourg and we caught up from there. Carol, if you would, how did you first get started in finance and then Treasury? How did it all start for you? Over to you.

Thank you, Mike. For me it all started by not being able to go to uni because I simply couldn't afford it. And so I went straight into an apprenticeship in Switzerland and studied for my accounting qualification. After work I then stepped into a role offered by PwC as an auditor and I did that for a couple of years and I must say that role taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about risk assessments because we worked with different companies every week and we worked with different people. So I worked with a lot of different cultures. In my first role I also traveled a lot and people who know me know that I love traveling. So every week was different after a couple of years and that happens quite a lot. A PwC client offered me a controller role. That was my first controller role in a corporate and My first role in which I managed a team. I was in my late 20s, so that was a big step for me. It built a lot on my emotional intelligence and collaboration skills. After that role, I stepped into an accountant role in a Swiss subsidiary of a US corporate. And I built quite a good relationship with the US group treasurer and she asked me to move to Luxembourg and head up the new legal structure of five Luxembourg entities. @ that time, as a regional finance director and as a board member. At that time, I was in my early 30s. Again, another big step for me. Great opportunity, change of country, moving into an FD world. I was excited. I said yes without even having to think about it.

Yeah.

And being a board member was super exciting for me. I built my strategic decision making skills. I had to communicate concisely and my presentation skills built quite quickly. My employer set up a reporting structure as such that even I was a finance director. I reported into the group treasurer. So that was my first door opening into Treasury. My group treasurer based in the us gave me access to quite a lot of treasury projects, which I took over more and more.

And was that your first contact with treasury or what was that like?

My absolute first contact with treasury ever. I was a controller, I was an accountant, I was an fd. I had never any touch points into treasury, so that was my first touch point into Treasury. It was such an exciting new world for me. Right. I could analyze and implement projects and see how these projects add value to the business, whereas before I recorded transaction that already had taken place. So there was no change.

Yeah. And then. So you'd found Treasury? Yes, found Treasury. The world of treasury, which we love. How did it then progress or what happened then to draw you more into it as well?

In. I then got promoted in 2009, I think it was just after the financial crisis, I got promoted into a cluster finance role. So I started as a. As a regional finance director at my five subsidiaries in my cluster finance role all of a sudden had responsibility for 15. So that promotion, as I said, came with much more responsibility and I had to leverage my audit background. So I developed a Treasury audit framework. And the purpose of that framework was to educate my FDS and FCS about Treasury. That was one objective. And the second one was of course, to ensure that subsidiaries comply with the treasury and accounting policy. I then involved that framework to Europe and Asia, for which I was responsible. And that also allowed me to travel to 17 countries. As I said before, traveling is one of the things I love most and I'm meeting people different People and just naturally I built my treasury muscle. But while I was doing these, while I was doing this framework and then another big treasury project that came along my way was the implementation of a multi currency notional pool that we implemented in four currencies. And we implemented it quite quickly. It took us less than a year. The pool header, of course was one of my Luxembourg treasury entities. And so that sat naturally under my.

Watch and with treasury then you were getting to know treasury, if you like, and leading those projects. Why were you enjoying treasury so much or what did you find about treasury that interested you so much?

While leading those projects, I discovered that treasury requires a much broader understanding of the business and wider skill set than my accounting role. Accounting is quite limited. While treasury is forward looking, every day is different and every day brings up another challenge. And in my opinion, good Treasurers are visionaries. At this point in my career, my heart was completely sold to Treasury. There was no way back and I wanted to move into a full time treasury role. But remember, I was still in Luxembourg and in Luxembourg that's not that easy. We have these regional treasury roles in Luxembourg and I wanted to do more than just trash cash management and ops.

Yeah.

So at that point my next natural step was to look into the AC qualifications, just to broaden my understanding in Treasury. I wanted to have a conceptual understanding of each area in treasury and I wanted to know what I am talking about, why and how this adds value to the business. And when I looked into the AC qualifications, I found out that they cover exactly that. So I then started to study for the certificate. I went through all three levels. So I went from the Certificate to the Diploma to the fct and it took me five years to finish my three levels. And I must say that my tutor was simply amazing. John, if you listen to that, I owe you a lot of. I probably had over the years, I probably had thousands of questions for him and he answered all of those very, very patiently. And thanks to him, he built what I am today.

And you and I know the sort of. These are the act, the UK treasury qualifications, if you like. You mentioned the three levels. What was the progression through those three levels or what's the basic the middle? I know this is more for the listeners, say we have the CTP in America and things like that. You move through those. What was the sort of experience of the qualifications and how did you find them, does they help you and things like that? Describe that if you would.

Absolutely. So firstly, I think that the ACT qualifications are key and hugely valuable. They take up a lot of time, so it's not, it doesn't come easy. So build up your time. But they build up treasury knowledge very quickly and they can be applied directly to treasury work. I personally, I have an opinion about doing them. I think that they should be mandatory for every treasury professional to complete at least the diploma. So the middle level, the AMCT level.

Right.

I can give you an example how valuable they were for me. So when I started my healing role in corporate finance, I started in corporate finance. I was asked to set up a US and European commercial paper program from scratch, something I have never done before and most of us have never done it before. The ACT qualifications cover commercial paper on each level in the certificate going through diploma through FCT in more and more detail. So it starts from explaining the difference of USCP and ecp. It goes through the calculations, it explains documentation and how you use CP strategically. Thanks to that, I was able to set up such a program with very little support from our VP Corporate Finance and we went live with the project before we spun off. At the time I took over this project, I was in my role for two, two weeks and without the ACT qualifications, I wouldn't have been able to deliver that project successfully.

When you say that, tell us why, what did you describe the qualifications there? Just give us a bit more drill down a little bit. Are they all paper exams or is it study or again, for the listeners, just so that they know what to expect.

The certificate sets the basic level. At the time, I don't know if there have been any changes, but the time I did it, you had to pass five online exams and then you could move to the amct. The AMCT was two online exams and two assignments at that time. One was a mandatory assignment, the other one we could choose from two topics and then the FCT was an exam, a four hour exam, which was one of my toughest that I had ever done and a dissertation. My dissertation was 200 pages long.

Whoa.

And yeah, it was big.

So 200 pages, that sounds like writing a book about treasure. So what did you focus on in that sort of thing? So again for the listeners.

Yeah, in my dissertation I analyzed the impact of green finance on corporate treasuries. So that comes with a very technical component. So I had to analyze or I analyzed 20,000 corporate financial statements and ESG metrics related to those corporates and the impact that the green finance had on their core financial metrics. But to round that off, I interviewed nine FTSE 100 treasurers and six very senior treasury professionals to give my analysis a bit of depth with real life experience and advice. And I'd say as tough as it was, I enjoyed every second of it and I would do it in a heartbeat. Again, that's cool.

And Carol, you and I have known each other for a number of years and as I said, I met you way back when in Luxembourg and things, but you then moved from Luxembourg. You've gone through these different career moves and transitions. How have you balanced it or how have you approached that sort of move? And then we'll bring it up today a bit more with Kali on and stuff like that, but talk us through the moves if you like.

Yeah. Navigating career transition is always a challenge, isn't it? Especially when you have to find a balance between your, between your private and your professional objectives. So before I could even think about applying to a role in London, which I wanted to do for a long time, I had to ensure that my partner is happy with that. I also had to ensure that the corporate that I want to go into and the role that I wanted matches my treasury career objective. So I had to give it a bit more thought what I wanted to, what I want to apply to. So it was always I wanted to go into a large, complex corporate, ideally listed with a big treasury team, living and breeding, a growth culture aligned with my values. And I also wanted to go into a front office role. I had done a back office role for a long time. I didn't want to go into a back office role again. That was quite challenging to find that right next step. It took me a long time. I was job searching for three years until the perfect next step came my way. And it required a lot of resilience, especially when we go through rejection. So when I was working through my fct, Caroline Stockman, the former CEO of the actual, sent our an email telling us that GSK Consumer Healthcare at that time, now Hellion was hiring for the spinoff. So I thought, oh okay, that might be the my next step. And I was looking into the roles and I saw that very cool corporate finance role on the funding side. I applied for that in 2021, went through several interview processes, got the role and then had to go through an even longer visa process thanks to Brexit. I started my New role in May 2022. New sector, new country, new lifestyle. And right now I am flying between back and forth between London and Luxembourg every couple of weeks. Luxembourg, because my family still lives there. It was never a question that they come with me And I can say that settling down wasn't easy. But as a Treasury professional I want to do more than just regional treasury and cash management and that is the only option in Luxembourg and London as the center for so many head office Treasuries is the place to be for me.

And you touched on there your role that you got and I knew that that was, as you say, there were a number of obstacles but you got through those and you got the role. What, so what's your current role? Can you describe also Halion and stuff like that, who they are as a company? I know them, so sometimes it's difficult. So I'm just assuming people know but obviously people don't know. So yeah. Can you describe it if you would?

Absolutely. So we are Helion is a, is the GSK consumer healthcare spin off at FTSE 20 very successful brands that most people know like Sensodyne, Panadol, Voltaire. When I started with Hellion, I applied for the corporate finance role and then my now manager had a shortage on his desk in the International treasury team and I was like oh you know what, I can do that. So I did post roles for a year and then decided that International treasury is really interesting. I like the diversity, I like my market. So I decided to move into International Treasury. I am now responsible for 23 markets in APEC, the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey. And in those markets I am the business partner for my entities and that comes to me advising on banking funding NFX the most exciting project that I had and many probably have to smile when, when, when they listen to that, was funding our Pakistan business. We wanted to expand our Panadol line in Pakistan to increase production. And whoever knows the markets, know the market knows how challenging that is. Foreign currency reserves in Pakistan in 2023 were at a record low. That means that when we as a Treasury team sent our currencies in, they got auto converted by the central bank immediately. What then meant that we couldn't pay for our Capebacks in Germany, in the uk, wherever we got the invoices from and we couldn't fund from the center as well. So we had to find a local solution. We partnered with a local bank which every treasurer can relate to. That is not the preferred approach. We usually like to work with our relationship banks but we had under these circumstances we had to partner with a local bank and to find a project finance solution. So this solution we found we were able to pay our suppliers in hard currency via a letter of credit while our entity in Pakistan can repay the loan in local currency. So a win. But it took us, I think eight months to come up with this.

You touch on there, Carol, that sort of your business partner, you've gone through that, as you say, that sort of letter of credit one and done this and you lead all these different projects in supply chain finance. Everything else. What's that like for you? This is great. Trip and plan part of your treasury role. Can you describe that for the audience, why that's so important? Interesting.

Yeah. As he. As I said, we are FTSE 20, we are not even two years old and we go through a lot of change. We have built teams with many new people, so we go through such a lot of strategic change. And with that change comes project growth. So I am leading three global projects in supply chain finance, in factoring and bank guarantees. All of these three projects contribute to our long term treasury strategy. So the prime objective for supply chain finance for us is to strengthen relationship with suppliers and relationship banks. Very key for us then for receivable finance it is supporting diversification of risk as it is an alternative source of funding. And then when we look at guarantees, the project increases visibility of our global guarantees that we have out there. And it also ensures consistent optimized pricing. My project role, it has not only built on my technical skills, but a lot on my negotiation, presentation and public speaking skills equally. I do present a lot to internal and external stakeholders in house in conferences. I find it is a very good and rewarding way of growing in terms of seniority, which supports my next step to moving into a deputy threshold role, which is clearly my objective.

And I know that we met up when you were in Barcelona, I think it was, and you were talking there, what were you talking about? Things.

Yes, in. In Barcelona I was able to present our supply chain financing project. We went live with this project in August 2023 and I had the pleasure to present it at the Euro Finance in Barcelona. So this year I will be talking at the Treasures Exchange about something else, about KYC and how KYC is connected with financial crime, for example, with disasters such as the port explosion in Beirut. And then I will again talk about supply chain finance at the GTR in June.

And then what? We've covered some of your route, if you like, and everything else. What? I know you've got this passion for Treasury. You and I have talked about this before, we're friends and things like that, what have you. Why do you enjoy treasury so much? What? Why does it get you up in the morning sort of thing.

I think I have the best job in the world. Honestly, I can. I learn every day. I deal with different people every day with different challenges. We transitioned from a Forma to an FMCG business model, which is exciting, a lot of change management. When we spun out, we had to change from a forma business model to an fmcg. And the difference between the two is that the FMCG products, they sell much faster and consumer preferences change so, so quickly. Right. So from a Treasury perspective, this means that we have to be agile, we have to adjust our approach and solutions quickly and we have to just every day go out there and learn and grow. And when you then add the complexity of Palion being a FTSE 20 business, which is not even two years old, this requires a Treasury team that is comfortable with change and able to build strong relationships between different teams in and out of finance. So my three professional qualifications, along with my background in a Big four as an FD and as a Treasury professional, really helped me navigate this environment, environment successfully. But honestly, Mike, more importantly, I can do it with a smile, which is important, is really important for me, that I love what I'm doing then. Sorry, go on. And then my experience that I was explaining before with me being able to work in 17 countries makes it very easy for me to build those strong relationships that I referenced earlier.

And you say you've got these working 17 countries, you've got these relationships, if you like, across all the different business units and everything else. How do you do that? We've got people listening today and they're like, that's all very well, Carol, you can do that. You've got all this, you know, experience behind you. How do you do it? What's your ethos behind building those relationships, if you like?

It's not that difficult, Mike. It's all about collaboration and careful listening, I think. Yeah. So I give you an example how I do it in my markets. So I have 23 markets and I have set up, when I took them over, I've set up quarterly treasury risk committees. That means that I bring in all of my 23 markets. I kick off with a summary of treasury projects so that they are. They all know what's going on at the hq. And then I break out into my markets. From the very beginning, Mike, I made it very clear that this call is not for me. This call is for them to talk and me to listen. And that's really important. So people can drop in and out while other markets present, but usually everyone stays and we have such Good lively discussions about challenges and approaches that we see fit. Everyone contributes and at the end of each call I briefly summarize what I've heard. They can add or correct me when I've misstated anything. And. And then I prepare an action tracker and we follow up on the action tracker and make sure that this is a meeting that actually adds value and solves their issues. So that collaboration, it creates huge value in terms of savings that we found already while sharing.

And sorry, Carol, when you say that, you say it create huge value. Have you monetized that or have you put numbers around it or what have you done in terms of hours or money saved?

Absolutely. So we have monetized it. Not everything, because not everything is about the money, is a lot about the strong relationship building as well. Right. They need to know that I am here to help them and that they can call me whenever they need me. So in terms of hours that we've saved, Mike, we do three hours every quarter. And when I started, I had a monthly call with each of my markets. So when you times time that by three, three months, that's 69 hours before and now it's three hours. So that's a 63 hour of saving. Yeah. And we are also planning to break that down into the team. So we have a very diverse team. We have people that are very senior and then people that are more junior. So what we want to do is now we want to maintain the tracker with topics and everyone can vote what topics they find valuable and the ones that they don't want to touch and they can add more. And then we do a monthly team session and go through these treasury concepts, calculations, capital structures, everything that we had heard about, but we tend to forget. And then people can ask questions and this builds such strong technical skills, but more importantly, it builds that team, it builds the relationship and it makes everyone feel included and hurt. Awesome.

Now, when you and I, although you and I have been friends for many years, since your days in Luxembourg, I know that I'm on LinkedIn all day, every day. Really. I'd seen a post that you did about the passion for your career and everything else you Talked about on LinkedIn. If you were to suggest that to the audience, what are you as a Treasury professional? What are the things you're passionate about career wise? Why do you use so passionate about all of this? That's what jumped out at me. That's why I said, carol, come on the book, because, oh, are you sure? I was like, yeah, no, I love your passion for Career. What are you passionate about?

Two things for me, personal growth and building high performing teams. That's what drives me and I am very passionate about that. So I like to step out of my comfort zone. I just love it and challenge myself. So this podcast is a good example way outside of my comfort zone. I honestly do not like to speak about myself. And while I was preparing for this podcast, I came up with at least 50 reasons. Mike, how to drop out. I didn't drop out, so here I am. That's one thing. The team building aspect. I am very passionate about fairness, giving people access to opportunities and empower and support them on their journey. There is so many slices of pizza. It's not only one. I don't have to be protective about that one slice of pizza. I can help people grow and that's what I like. So hiring for attitude, for example and transferable skills is crucial for me. I can give you an example. We have a finance graduate. She is a great example of attitude and transferables skills. She hasn't been in treasury no touch points at all before, but no one can tell Mike, because she has the curiosity to learn and grow. She asks questions, she steps out of her comfort zone. I ensure that she has access to me whenever she needs me. Yeah. I make sure that she can participate in as many conferences and social events as possible to build her treasury knowledge and network. And in return she becomes stronger and stronger in her role every day. And that makes me look really good because she helps me achieve my objectives while and that's again the most important thing. We have a lot of fun working together. So that said, for me it is not important to hire the person that has done exactly the job I'm hiring for. I'd rather hire for growth mindset for the attitude for transferable skills. That is much more important.

Okay. And that's all very well, Carol. And you're in a big corporate. There are people out there in smaller corporates that go look, yeah, okay, Carol, you can do this. I've got pressure on me. I need to find someone that's a cookie cutter. In fact, when I was over in Texas recently, someone said why are everyone hiring the exactly the same person? I said, there's so much pressure on us if you. I said there isn't. Maybe higher for 60% fit and then you've got 40% you can train them on and things like that. But I know that you're very passionate about this because of your experience you as a person. But how would you say that if Someone is saying that to me, hang on, we can't do that. I don't have the time. How would you say that? They balance that out. If you like. What's your advice? If you like.

I think that coaching, investing in people and training them is key to people retention. That's the first thing. I think that many hiring managers, they ask questions that I find difficult. For example, have you implemented supply chain finance in your current role? What happens if a candidate says no? Is this a negative? For me, it depends. For the hiring manager it probably is. What I would do as a hiring manager, I would say what project have you led or participated in and what skills have you developed? And then in a second step, have you used these skills in other projects and how have these skills developed over time? When I went through my interview process, the hiring managers were assessing my current potential. But what I think is really important is assessing future potential.

Right.

If then the candidate also brings a growth mindset and is not afraid of stepping out of her or his comfort zone and has the right attitude. I don't have to think twice, Mike. I give this person a chance in my team even without any treasury experience.

Awesome. And so before we reach the end of the show, I just wanted step back a little bit, reflect on what you've done so far. As you said, we, you and I have talked, planned, this is very much out but you said to me that there were 50 reasons why you weren't going to be on the show. But eventually you thought, you know, I am going to be on the show because I know you've been successful in your career. So what would you say have been maybe your biggest career successes so far when you've looking back, what have you done sort of thing.

I view my greatest career success in me bringing my treasury and financial skills into the not for profit world. And give back also. Yeah, I volunteer for two charities and I do that at my on my weekends. One of them is the Network in Luxembourg. The network connects and empowers professional women and I help them out as an auditor. I also found an awesome charity here in London. Took me quite a while to find that great opportunity. So I volunteer at the Mayhew. The Mayu is an animal welfare charity and everyone that knows me knows that animals are very close to my heart. Our family counts eight horses, two dogs and a cat. So on Saturdays I go to the Mayus and I work at the reception at their vet clinic. And their vet clinic provides free treatment for pets of people who are on benefits or on low Income. I do that because I've been very fortunate in my life and for me it is very important to give back and leave this world as a better place.

Awesome advice for people. Now we, we are getting to time on the podcast, so we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. Reflect a little bit on your career there. But as we do each and every week, as we have done for 300 plus episodes, what are the takeaways you're going to give for either more junior guys or. Or senior treasurers? What are the takeaways from today's show as you reflect back over yours, what are your thoughts or thing that you think people should take forward with them? Take away from today's as they're sitting, having a coffee.

Three pieces of advice for me. Find what you really want to do in life and love what you do and work hard for it. That's the first one. The second one is consider lateral moves or even a structurally lower position to gain a broader perspective. This is really important, especially when you become more senior. And then the third piece of advice, don't be afraid of career change. Take the risks and take the opportunities. I would have regretted it, not doing it. And then things always do not go according to plan. We, we all have that. It's not that Chinese story that you read on LinkedIn when you have these setbacks, get up, shake off the dust and keep going.

It's not, not about the how many times you get knocked down, it's about how many times you keep getting up. Amazing. Absolutely, Carol, amazing. Thank you very much. And as you said, but to me before, you were slightly nervous about being the show. There was no need. That was brilliant. Loads of great advice for people, particularly I think maybe in the more junior stage of the career that you can pivot, you can do this exactly as Carol's done. So we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. I know there'll be a wealth of people wanting to connect to you. Thank you for your advice today and look forward to seeing you in real life very soon.

Thank you, Mike.

Thanks for tuning into another great episode. You really enjoy it. Thank you very much. You make it worthwhile, us recording them with these amazing treasury professionals right the way across the world, from the us, across uk, across Europe. And there's lots more exciting guests to come and lots more live events. We love delivering this content. We get asked now, is this what you do? Do you just do content? You just do. No, the reason we do the content is to get to know you guys to give you back the tips for success if you like. But we're here to help you hire someone. If you need to recruit, call us. Because at our heart, we are a Treasury recruitment company. That's how we pay the bills, that's how we pay for the podcast and that's what we're passionate about. We hear from you at events and things. Can we also help you find your next great role? Can we help you hire? The answer is yes, that's exactly what we do. Yes, we do our treasury salary survey@treasurysalary.com that helps us know exactly how to benchmark not only your salary, but also when you're looking to hire. We know exactly what the market is paying wherever you might be, whether it's the us, UK or Europe. We want to make sure that we are the best informed, that we're not just finger in the air. We always know. If you want to hire the best in treasury, don't hesitate to contact us. Go onto the website treasuryrecruitment.com or in the US, you can contact Joe Grabowski Europe, contact the lovely Katie for more senior roles and roles across the uk, reach out and contact me or drop any of us an email Joe at treasuryrecruitment.com Katie at treasuryrecruitment.com or Mike@treasuryrecruitment.com Let us help you make the hiring process as amazingly seamless and easy as our podcasts are to listen to. Thanks for your amazing support and looking forward to seeing you at either an event or a conference very soon. Or just give me a call. Let's help you find the next role or recruit the next treasury professional. All right, until next week, many thanks.