The Power of Networking & Learning Opportunities for Treasury Professionals with Vikas Jhangiani

Foreign to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywar, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurer about how they've built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next in this week's show. Delighted to be joined by vikas Jungiani, the VP Corporate Treasurer. Spotless Brands was established in 2020 by Access holdings with a single purpose of revolutionizing the car wash industry through partnering with best in class car wash operators in premium markets. Today Spotless Brands is one of the fastest growing and largest car wash platforms in the United States. The company currently operates 170 car washes across the country. So with Ford industry leading brands we've got Cobblestone Auto Spa, Oki Express Auto Wash, Flagship Car Wash and Ultimate Shine Car Wash. Amazing. I'll get Vikas to explain a little bit more later on in the show, but what I do love is when I read through some of this, it's now 175 locations, 8 states, 4 brands, 3400 employees and 20 million vehicles washed annually. I was like wow, amazing. So we'll get back into that a bit later but because we're going to go right back to the beginning how you first started your career finance Treasury. I know we had a great podcast pre podcast call. So back to you sir.

Yeah, well thank you again for having me on your podcast as well as thank you for this great introduction so how I got into finance or anything else. Right. So my father, very highly educated man, he ran his own successful tax consultancy practice so always grew up watching and listening to him and then even during the summers in high school, later on in a way interned in his practice. So the financial field Seed was sown then a little bit. And then with my collegiate education back in Bombay, India, I enrolled in a commerce and economics field. When I transitioned here, I got admitted to the School of Accounting, but it was thanks to one of the finance professors whose first class I took. And the way he explained finance, I was just completely enthralled and I knew that was my calling. So that's how I ended up in finance. My first role out of college undergrad was at PW and that was in the area of defined contribution 401k planning. So that was more accounting based than finance. But it was again a subsequent conversation with another professor, undergrad professor of mine, Dr. William Chittenden, who taught us that short term cash management course in college. And I was talking to him and he counseled me and guided me into treasury after I explained to him how much I liked his class. And then he even coached me for the ccm, which then was Certified Cash Manager and now it's been rebranded as ctp, which is your certified treasury professional.

And that's what, that's the exam that most US treasury folk do. And you have different ones in the UK and across Europe, but the course itself, I know you're very involved, you've done, we're involved with that, with the afp. Good start. Do you think, to get your knowledge off the ground, as it were?

Yes, it definitely was because CTP at least gave me more conceptual understanding of how our Fed system works, how ACHS work, how bank account set up and administration works. So. And even the history of it. Right. On how things came about and how things have developed and evolved, how the checking system works. So it is a really great tool. I would encourage anybody and everybody who desires to pursue a career in treasury to take this course. And over the years also when I was taking it, it was more theory based and then you have the formulas and the financial base. But then over the years as things have shifted, it has gravitated more towards your finances and the treasury aspect rather than cash management. Nonetheless, still a great certification to have.

And is that something you look for yourself when you, you look, I know we're jumping ahead, but when you're looking at people, you think it's just a good rubber stamp of level of experience and expertise.

Absolutely, absolutely. So it gives me a more understanding that, okay, here's somebody who actually does want to likes treasury and they have invested their time in getting this certification. So the way I look at it is for accounting professionals, how you have a CPA for treasury, it's ctp. CTP is not as intense as cpa, but at least still gives me a better idea that here's somebody who actually wants to pursue a career.

So you were PwC and then you really kicked off your treasury career with Follett Corporation. Can you explain who they were or talk us through the move?

Absolutely. So Follett, I always describe them as school where I earned and learned at the same time. And the learned was actually a few different layers to it. So not only did I get my CTP while I was with them, I obviously learned everything about treasury with them and then I even pursued my MBA while I was working with them. So. But Follett was or is still a retailer for bookstores and even wholesaler across U.S. and Canadian campuses. We were the largest then. I'm not fully sure now. I think at that point they were 900 or so bookstores and now they might be close to a thousand. But they have been acquired by the PE firm. The family sold out. But that was a retail business. So I got to learn, I mean anything and everything in treasury. Right? Right. From the entire cash management side to negotiation, negotiations, investments, putting together the deck or the loan every year, that line of credit that we used to have. So to put together the financial package deck for the bankers who would come in and we would present to them. So and this was obviously along with my boss Patrick Rivers, who again taught me everything, a lot that I know and I'm still using it. And we put a lot of things in place as well over there. So that was the most exciting part where the technology in 1999 was getting bank information through dial up modem. And how we did things were more paper based and then from there we went to a server based software and then eventually the web based and cloud based. So a lot of work doing RFPs for armored car, looking at treasury workstation. Just a deep wealth of knowledge. What I learned then, I'm still using now.

And also I think people forget that was a cash based cash and checks which we had at one stage the treasurer for Brinks Matt on the show way back when and it was about when it was cash transmission. It was actual physical cash and going and collecting it from stores. People forget that has been a big thing now where we're moving away from that and everyone talks cashless. But that was a big thing for treasurers as well.

Yes. So cash was in a way painful. We appreciate the money, but it's just hard managing that cash. And even, frankly speaking, I think even from the banking side. Right. Just having that cash vault and running those operations, it's in a way a loss leader for them. They have it because the retailers require it. Again, we love electronic settle electronically. We don't even really like issuing checks. We like direct deposits and ACHs. But you know, again, followed the biggest customers were the students. Right. So when they paid us, yes, the parents were writing the checks and the kids were using the parents credit card or something to that effect. But when it came back to buying books from, the students never wanted that electronically. They never wanted. They wanted cash that they don't have to tell their parents about. And they could pretty much just take the cash and go to the nearest pizza place or the bar. Right?

Yeah.

And even if it was like at times you tell them you're all out of bills and we have quarters or rolls of quarters and they're like, it's money. Right, I'll take it. So the challenge was getting cash to the independent bookstores across the country. To any of those bookstore managers were never the signers on the bank accounts, but then we were giving them those checks drawn off main Cash Management bank and they were going to the local mom and pop bank in their town to get that money. And so we would have a process called buyback. And at that time, the treasury dictator was, nobody's taking any time off and free up your calendars because you guys will be on the phone and you'll be sending this. And all it was at times was eight or nine hours of just sitting on the phone and talking to these bookstore managers and the branch managers at the bank and why they should accept the cash and give like $10,000 or $20,000 in the denomination the bank the bookstore manager needs. So yeah, it's very unique business.

Yeah, yeah. And then talk us through the next couple of roles because you were Wheaton and then cna. Talk us through those because I know I don't want to, I want to keep to time and I want to be respectful of your time. So yeah, absolutely. Come with the moves.

So with Wheaton Franciscan, it was an opportunity to come and set up cash management structure from the scratch and that I couldn't let go. And it was a bump up as well in title and learning from somebody else. And one thing my cfo, Ed Follett would look for when she was hiring different candidates was has this person been in different roles with different industries? So that is one thing I adapted and I would consciously try, you know, in my different roles to go to different industries as well, so you're learning something new and the size of the company as well. So Wheaton Franciscan again was great, where whatever I learned at fault, I got to implement. But then after that I had this inkling always to see what a Treasury management sales officer does and when they would come in and offer their consultative advice and how they would get you from A to Z in terms of a solution. So I wanted to try that out, which I did. And then very soon I realized that there was a lot more to the control and this wasn't for me. So for I did this for a very short time and again learned a lot where I got to understand the inner workings of a bank and how several teams within the bank come together to put together a good solution for you and market it and present it and implement it so that I've been able to use in all my future roles. And then CNA was somewhere. The first time I would be working for a public company, a bigger conglomerate, if you will. Insurance aspect was new. I was getting to manage a team of four individuals. There was SOX compliance, which we would get to use and. But the biggest thing for me also was a Treasury workstation and I was able to go through two separate upgrades of that treasury workstation. So there was a lot that I got out of CNA as well.

And just give us a moment for cna, reinsurance broker and everything else, or what was it like you said you moved through different industries. You'd gone from bookstores through healthcare and now you're in insurance. How did you deal with that?

So there were some very interesting aspects. So yeah, it was bookstore, but it was retail. So I was more focused on the retail aspect. Healthcare obviously was very different because the lockbox treatment was very different and very unique. There was more wholesale lockbox. And when you get a healthcare bill, right, most people don't rush into paying all of it. They'll pay a little bit and then, you know, applying that to the Medicare and Medicaid and how that's done. So that treatment was very different. So I got to learn that aspect and it was not for profit, so there was not scrutiny. But there was more audit on the financials, if you will, then with cna. Again it was insurance and we did do, apart from boiler and machinery, there were some other very strategic insurances that they had which dovetailed into policies that were sold overseas during the US's war on terror. So that was a very interesting. And I can't talk more about it still. So that was very interesting aspect of things that we were handling on our side. And that's where I got to even see how, you know, all those other criterias that our government has when you're processing international payments were put in place, how they were. Yeah, yeah. And CNA was also very unique because within that one company, we had like seven or eight different companies. So it was. You just couldn't, like move money from one of these companies to the other. They were very siloed and bifurcated. Right. So there was a lot of compliance. We learned over there as well.

And then, as if you hadn't had enough different industries, derivatives at cme. And then ATI said, talk us through. I mean, amazing moves.

Yeah, no, thank you. And CME was a company that I always had my eye on because, again, my father, God bless his soul, but, you know, he would always tell me that the one function that'll make money regardless if the markets are down or regardless if the markets are up, is a broker. Somebody is always selling, somebody's always buying. Right. No matter good times or bad times, so the broker always makes money. And that's what CME turned out to be. And my attraction to take that role at CME was twofold. One was heavy international, and they were in, I think, close to 30 plus countries at that point. So the treasury that we did for international was. I don't think I'll ever get that experience anywhere else. And then the other part was they did not have a Treasury workstation, so we had to put one from scratch. And going through that RFP and implementation of the same was very different and very unique. And then along the way, I got to change our insurance broker. Right. There was another. They had a commercial paper program that we got to go out and test. So there were a lot of things that I never had experienced before. And so one of the things that I've tried and as I've been counseled by some of the leaders I worked for and mentors also, is that when you're switching from one role to the other, always see, if you can do a hundred percent of that role, then what was the. What's the point? If you can do 80% of it, or maybe even 70, then that's a good move, because the remaining 20, 30% is what is there for you to learn and grow. So it has to be mutually beneficial where you are learning as well. You're not just going there for a job, but you're going there for a career. So.

And I just want to jump in there. So just briefly I was trying to talk through this exact example with someone when I meet, recently met them in Texas at the Text Bow event, great conference. And they were like, oh, I want to make a move, I want to do this, I want to. And I said, right, so what you're telling me is you want to go in a role where you can probably only do 15, 20% of it. Yeah, that's it. I said, you're not going to get it. Oh no, I could do this, I could do this. I said, so you're going to tell me that four days out of five you're going to be learning on the job? Yeah. I said, if someone came to you and wanted to work in your team and want to work for you. And you said, but I'll contribute for one day a week and the other four I'll just be learning on your dollar. And he was like, well, I don't mean it. I was like, that's exactly what you mean. It was like, right, yeah. As you say, you've got to be able to impact, you've got to be able to contribute. Not on all things, but. And there is. You've got to be stretched. But also you've got to think. I think when we. I get candidates, sometimes they apply for roles and say, oh, I can do some of it. Yeah, but how much is some? You say a 60, 70%, I think as a minimum. Because otherwise why you've been paid. But as you said, you were. You. But you were implementing and bringing in your technology knowledge and everything else. So that, that definitely helped. So yeah, so talk to. So you did that at CME and then what happened next?

So from CME again, an opportunity came up to be the assistant treasurer. So again that would have been a step up and this time it was going to a healthcare company and that is ATI physical therapy. So the one unique part that attracted me to the role was they were, it was a open secret, if you will, that they wanted to go public. So the entire experience and CME was already public. Right. So I was like, well, how can I not take an experience that'll get me from private company to a public and what that involves and how that happens, the SEC filings and so on, so forth and making sure that treasury is SOX compliance. And so that was the major attraction at ati and that's why I took that role.

And good position for you. And again, learning wise.

Absolutely.

You've been public, you went private and then you took it through that process. Any someone else is listening today and they're thinking, oh, should I do that? What. What should they expect?

Again, like I said, my thing was different roles, different industries, but different experiences. Right. It's that experience that you talk about. You were expecting, obviously, long hours. CME was very interesting at times. We were chasing the sun around the globe, getting off the call at one in the morning from South Korea or. Yeah, South Korea. And then five in the morning again. I'm calling New York when they are opening. So there were days like that and they were not very frequent. But those are the talking points and the stories, right?

Yeah.

And same way again with ati, when things were going good and then obviously Covid hit and what that entailed in terms of people not coming into your clinics and then going to that telemedicine or trying to do therapy over the phone or the Internet. So trying to put those solutions where treasury got involved and working with fpna. So those were all those things. But yeah, one of the thing is, if you are just going in to do the same job again and again, day in and day out, it gets a little monotonous. The best thing is to see where we can get more and offer your help up more is what I try to do at least.

Yeah. And your growth and things and then bring us up to date sort of thing. You were there, ati, what happened next?

So here comes the role at Spotless, which is a startup. I'd never worked for a startup, so that was the one really carrot for me. And then it was finally leading a Treasury team and setting one up from scratch, and I definitely couldn't let this go. And with the startup, again, like we internally described, this is a plane that we are building as we are flying it. Right. So.

And you say you're building it from scratch. You know, what were you, what were you. What are the things that you put in place which have had the biggest impact. Would you say you've walked in the door, you've got your checklist, what's it been like since you started 18 months ago, whatever.

So I would say the three. I would say prominent things that at least I feel really proud about or happy about within the first two weeks of starting my job, along with my cfo Andy Korni, we put an interest rate hedge in place because rates were really rising up the second and third or third and fourth quarter, 2022. And then the next thing that I got to do is put in an investment program from scratch, wrote the investment policy, got all those funds in and got that going and Then finally we also got a robust cash forecast. We took over from the consulting team and that forecast today is updated and presented on a weekly basis. And as that's how helps us manage our cash and have to give a special shout out to Jordan Burke for my team for doing a stellar job on that front. As you can imagine, a car wash operation is very manually or is very heavily capital intensive. So making sure we don't over borrow, we borrow and whether we are borrowing and rolling that over one month versus three month, right? So we are tracking the sofr, we track the yield curve, we put together analysis where we are looking at what's the market condition, the market expectation versus like the 95th percentile where the rates can go very high, then the fifth percentile where the rates can go very low. Trying to make the best judgment. And that is obviously an implication if you go one month then you gotta pay that interest every month as opposed to if I go three months, maybe I can keep that interest and invest it. And given the current rates the money market funds are giving, right. So that's an analysis, that's a strategy. Tomorrow if the rates are reduced and they go down and they go back to the near zero like we had during COVID or before, then it might not be the strategy would change because investing it and in fact paying for a sweep may now no longer be worthwhile. So we always doing an roi, we always doing a cost benefit analysis with anything and everything we do. The cash forecast helps us quite a bit in terms of tracking our expenses and whether it's opex, whether it's Dev Capex and then just trying to see what makes the most sense.

And I know that when you and I had our pre call, if you like, we discussed this that very much links into why you enjoy treasury so much. It's really getting into the nuts and bolts of the business. What do you enjoy most about treasury would you say? What's the key thing for you?

Right. So the way I look at it is we can impact the bottom line. Whether it's the loan we get, the terms on those loans, how we strategically park the excess cash, the banking partners we choose. Right. So you must have heard of some of the banking crisis that have come up in the last few years, the SVB and everything like that. If treasury is involved in insurance like we had at cme, Right. So the kind of insurance coverage we get, whether it is protecting your sites, the K and R, the direction, the dno, those all make a big difference. The hedges we put in Place, whether it's interest rate and if you're dealing with international for fx. So all those and a misstep there, virtually wipe out all your profits.

Yeah.

You get into a bad swap and all of a sudden you're paying more for your loan. Right. So that's the way I look at it, that, hey, this is a very strategic role or strategic department. And then also one important thing is that we are the closest to the company's liquidity position. Every morning we can see how much money is coming in, and this is even before anybody else, even before accounting or anybody else gets to see it, and how we are marked up to our budget. And so we are obviously looking at our future, present and future cash flows. And so that's very interesting to me. And then one other thing that I really enjoy about treasury is this entire vendor relationship, management and negotiation and trying to see what is the best we can put in place in terms of services and the price we pay for the same, whether it's your banking partner, armored car service, credit card merchant, processors and things like that.

And in a moment, we'll come on to about Windy City. We're going to see each other. That's one of the reasons we, you know, bonded over this, because I'm doing the Windy cities for like 14th or 15th time this year. And before we get to that, I'd seen a post by you on LinkedIn which really intrigued me about why you should pursue a career in treasury, what it really gave you and why was it you talked about it a little bit there, about being the lifeblood of a company. And we, although we host the show with the treasury recruitment company, we people have sometimes. And now we put it at the end of the show where we said, by the way, yes, we do the podcast, but we're a recruiter, right. So if you need to recruit someone, call us. If you need to find a new job, call us. Because we're not overt settlers. It's not a sales pitch. I don't want to do it like that. I want to be more respectful of my audience. But that being said, why would you say someone should, in your opinion? I can tell you why I think someone should pursue a career in Treasury. I think it's bloody brilliant. But why would you say someone should say. If you're in the early years of your career or you maybe discovered the podcast and thank you for discovering why would someone pursue a career in Treasury? What do you think is magic about it?

So apart from the things I mentioned earlier in terms of why I like treasury, which I always think are the plus points. Right. One of the other things that I've always viewed treasury at is a very unique role where we, Treasury Department are tied to the hip with our internal customers that we have. So whether they might be accounting, ap, ar, payroll tax. Right. They are my internal customers. They come and tell us where they are struggling with. So whether the data that they are getting from the bank is very manual, they would like it a certain way, or if they are putting it all in spreadsheets. And maybe we can put a Treasury workstation in place. Right. Same way with ap, everything is in house. It's very cumbersome, it's getting delayed. Does it make sense to get a third party vendor to help out? Right. Or work with a bank? So they are our internal customers and then we are the customers of various financial institutions like the banks and investment firms, merchant processors, like I mentioned earlier, and other vendors to armored car, the banks, deposit ticket suppliers and things like that. So we are like the liaison, if you will, between several departments of the company and those external vendors.

Your key pivot role as well.

Right. So that brings along this entire thing of like a consultative aspect where we are seeing where we can help out, improve the bottom line, where we can take the ball forward, as we say and bring things in, implement it and then hand over this baby to somebody else to run.

Yeah.

And you leave your stamp on that way.

Yeah.

So to me that's very exciting. Rather than just doing the same thing in and out daily. Right, yeah. So that is a very value added service as far as I'm concerned. And I would always highlight that to anybody who is thinking about pursuing treasury.

And you say about pursuing treasury, obviously you've expanded your team, you've recruited, you've looked at people coming and joining you. What is it you're looking for? Again, this is a bit of advice to someone who's listening today and maybe they're going for an interview or they're going to be meeting a treasurer soon and they're thinking crumbs. What should my checklist be? What are the things you think that someone, when you're recruiting, what do you look for? Something?

Right. So some basic things like somebody who's again, consciously taken on more as the years have gone by. Right. Either grown with the same company, like I mentioned, or taken on roles within different industries. Ethics is a big thing. We are dealing with the most sensitive thing, money. Being ethical is very essential as far as, um, I'm concerned when I'm Interviewing I guess I'm looking for somebody who is listening and then asking for asking questions pertinent, trying to see if there is overall passion about Treasury. I'm also very old school. So when somebody doesn't follow the basic interview etiquette, whether they are not professionally dressed, they are not very well spoken, doesn't follow up with a thank you note or expressing their interest, it just comes across as okay, this is another interview.

I went, yeah, they're just going for another interview.

It's like yeah, so those are some of those things that I look at. But yeah. And then what I would like to see but then it's very hard to gauge in that one hour that you're talking to somebody is their aptitude, their passion, the communication style, attention to detail. Right. So those things I think one finds out as and when you just progress.

Yeah. And as you say just on the interview style you get one chance to make a first impression.

Right.

You know, so make it usually you.

The, the first few minutes. Yeah, I can. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And that's why again this neatly. It's like we, it's like we've rehearsed this but that neatly brings me on to conferences again we. You're heavily involved in the City Summit in Chicago. This is going to come out the week before so we'll be seeing each other in real life next week. I'm Speaking on the first morning 9:00am I now opening the conference. There are a couple of other sessions but don't go to those come to mind where I'm interviewing amazing Kerry, which is Aramark now and Raquel from them about their treasury career. Again we'd. I'd seen this on LinkedIn so that you were very much involved with Windy City. Why do you think going to networking and going to conferences like that is so important? What, what stands out for you if you know.

So just a little bit about Windy City Summit for the ones who don't know. So it's a Chicago based premier event for not only treasury management but also for other financial professionals. So whether it's accounting, AR, AP, FPNA, tax, there are sessions for them and it's great to connect with other leaders and decision makers and influencers right in that space. There's always an exchange of ideas and strategies that you learn from those sessions. There is relationship building, networking. There are opportunities to learn and share on the Q and A sessions and then you also get to know what are the best practices, the latest trends in the industry, what tools and technologies are out there, what different vendors are offering in the exhibit hall. I have attended some guest speakers who always share their motivational story. So that's always an added benefit and nothing like it. Yeah, no, there's absolutely nothing like it. So it's here, right here in Chicago at the Navy Beer Convention, I think on Tuesday, May 21 and Wednesday, May 22. Personally, for me, both Windy City and Treasury Management association of Chicago, tmac have been this wealth of knowledge. And I'll give you an example that one year that I went to Windy City, this is back in my fallen days again. And the cost of going, attending this particular conference is very cheap. It's only a few hundred dollars. It's not that much. But I was able to go back to my manager at that point and I said, listen, I brought you three different things from here. The first thing I brought you was a relationship with the bank where we opened another set of concentration accounts and we got six or seven different loot mom and pop bank accounts into this one. I got you an armored car contact and we did this RFP thing. And I got you the idea of how to go from those paper checks onto CD Rom as well as. Actually, one fourth idea was to turn off our sweep because we are paying more for sweeping because interest rates were low right after that Internet bubble burst, so to speak.

Yeah.

But. Yeah, so this is what I brought you. And then ever since then, whenever I've gone to conferences, I've tried to bring at least that one idea to my employer and present it to them and say that you spent this time on me. Right. Let me go for those two, two and a half days you paid for the conference. And this is the idea I brought you back. So there was another idea not too long ago from AFP conference with the virtual payables or E Payables that I brought to ati. And we put that in place and it significantly increased our rebate. And that is on an ongoing basis. So it was worth for me to go. Right. There was a session on lease accounting that I was able to attend and get something back at Wheaton Franciscan. I was at one of the conferences and there was a great session that was presented on disaster recovery at that time. So they went through this whole thing of how they were not prepared to win. I think there was this blackout in New York in the early 2000s and what that. How that impacted them and how they were able to run their operations regardless. And so any little idea, any one little spark, right, that you can bring to your company and present and Say, this is what this means. Right. So this Windy City, one of the guest speakers is going to be talking about the impact of AI on Treasury. Just that one hour session or that luncheon guest speaker. I am very excited to personally go and listen to them.

You're more excited to come to the Tuesday morning and mine. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Let's back up. Absolutely. That's the second one. That's the second one we can create.

Yeah, that could be the second one. We'll have the AI guy later. That's fine. But you're right, exactly that. And I think it's fascinating for me, I'm giving a session to the Manufacturers alliance association of talking about treasury and AI and what I'm seeing because I'm talking to treasurers like yourself and it's fascinating to talk about the impact it's making. And I get to see this diverse range of treasurers and you see how it really is changing.

Right.

I think the other thing I would go back to exactly as you point out that the networking, there's nothing like it. It's from actually making a connection with people. We did this, we've done the past few AFPs. We're actually opening the AFP conference, which we confirmed with a networking session. Now I wanted to have. Mine was my working title was what not to do at AFP 2024. They said that was a little bit cheeky. So we said, okay, but we're going to talk about how to optimize your Networking opportunities at AFP 2024. Myself, Nicole Meyer and Summer Simmons from Victoria's Secret. Love, love those two ladies. But we're literally going to be teaching people how to make the best of networking. And one of them. Anyone listening today? You know, we're going to get to the end in a minute. But one of the things I often say, and I've just done it the past couple of conferences I've been at is when you walk into the sessions, you've taken two days out of your time. And a lot of people, and I've seen it, not just my sessions, other people's sessions say, look, do me a favor, can you switch off your phone for an hour? Do you know what? It's still going to work in an hour. But just take some time out for yourself. It's an investment in yourself, in that networking because otherwise you're just wasting your time. Yeah, you can watch online. Just do it. And I know that you are a big believer in that and the networking aspect. So, yeah, looking forward to it and particularly Catching up with people.

So am I, because I personally struggle and this is a struggle at home too with my kids. Right. It's very interesting with their mindset that they would rather text than pick up the phone and call. They would rather send you a text and lift their hand up and shake hands. So that. And I'm seeing that in the new set of professionals that are entering any field. So it's very interesting when you are there in that exhibit hall or sitting next to another peer of yours. Right. To network and talk, hey, is this what you do? How do you do it? And there are times where just by talking to the other person, I'll end up learning something. And whether it's that machine learning, where things are going, whether they are using the bots right now. So when you use the bot to do your account reconciliation and how that's done, which vendor you're using. Right. What's your experience? Just that feedback right then and there. How do I put a price on that? And usually I'll bring that, I'll make a note of that. I'll bring that here to my team here and mention to them, hey, have you thought of this? This is one of the hot topics that were being discussed. Now whether we are there or not is a separate story, but at least the seed is sown. So it's those kind of things where I think whether it's my learning through the Windy City Summit or even the Treasury Management association of Chicago where we have guest speakers come in the third Thursday of every month, I think for the nine months and a takeoff during the summer. And there's always something that is presented of interest that can.

Yep. So we're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. So lots of people want to connect to you, particularly in the run up to the conference and other conferences are available. But you know, all of them are great because you get to network with people and learn something each of the times. For someone listening today, maybe their early years of their career or maybe later on, what takeaways are you going to give to people that as we wrap up today's show that they can as well as connecting to you, which is great, but what takeaways are you going to give people?

I guess the takeaway for the new folks entering and this is something as a dad that I tell my kids, and sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't, is be more proactive rather than reactive. Get out of this phone world. And there is a real world out there. Right. And always look at trying to see if we can take the ball forward. And as I, you know, tell this to them, I keep on telling that to myself as well. And there's somebody who I view very highly and as Mr. Stallone would say, keep punching, just keep going and don't stop.

Nice. And yeah, just anything. Any other bits about looking for roles or anything else you think people should think about in their careers and the. Any final words?

I just think show that passion, show up on time. The very basic thing. Show up like you care. Show up and show up. That's the other thing. And I understand a lot of folks do like that, work from home, but it. How does one network while you're working from home and a lot of the networking also within the company, I feel happens when you're in between meetings, the meeting gets over and folks are leaving the room and there's always that one sidebar conversation that happens or a small talk or something. Personally, I feel that getting to know your coworker, building that internal network, that's when it happens.

Yeah.

It doesn't necessarily happen on Zoom and teams, so that's where I feel maybe look into Hybrid or being in person most of the time, or a flex role, rather than just focusing on a role a hundred percent working from home, because that can have its challenges.

Because I'm looking forward to seeing you next week when this comes out. So anyone reach out, we'll put the details in the show notes so you can connect. You'd be lucky to have him in your network, so thank you very much. It'd been great to chat to you today.

Pleasure's all mine. Thank you, mate. Thank you.

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