The Recruitment Ethos Behind Corporate Treasury with Lynda Heywood

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out, or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or this feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventibly enough. But anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show.

Hello and welcome to this week's Treasury Career Podcast. Before I get right into the show, I just wanted to say a few words. Usually you we might say our thank you speech at the end of a performance or end of a show. I want to change that a little bit today. I just wanted to say firstly a quick thank you to you guys, the listeners, for putting up with, well, should we say some very nasally tones in the first few shows over the past month or so. I didn't accidentally shove a sock up my nose or dose as it sounded like I foolishly still play rugby badly, but at the same time as breaking my nose a little bit, I also managed to develop a massive cold. So the first few weeks where you've been enjoying the show, you've had to put up with pretty challenging sounds as it were. But now hopefully normal service is resumed. I'm a bit clearer in your earbuds. Just actually returned from the AFP conference in Chicago, the US Treasurer's Conference. Found myself on the other, you know, the other side of the microphone actually being interviewed on the AFP Conversations podcast. So I'll include a link to theirs to their podcast on the show. Notes it was really lovely to meet and speak to Ira Apfel, although very strange to actually be the one being quizzed all the time sort of thing. So I, I got a better understanding of how some of our guests feel and it seems actually you guys are really enjoying the show. We've just hit the 750 downloads mark. We've been only going about five weeks or so, so it's great stuff. But I still welcome any of your suggestions about who we speak to, how the show evolves. And I've actually, I've name checked a couple of guys I've had some great feedback from Benjamin defaze over in Luxembourg and some suggestions. Robert Leeson back in the UK and actually met up with listener Sue Ellen Speight when I was over here at the show from San Francisco, the West Coast. Thanks, guys. I hope to tweak stroke change some of the candidate interview or client interviews, rather to reflect your ideas and try and evolve the show a little bit to reflect it. So thanks very much for the feedback, but that's enough of that stuff. Let's get back into the main bit where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. As I do every week, I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. I'm enjoying talking to them about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see themselves and the treasury profession going to next. On this week's show, I'm delighted to be joined by Linda Hayward, the group Treasurer at Tesco. Headquartered in hertfordshire in the UK, Tesco are the UK's leading retailer, employing over 400,000 staff across eight different countries. Linda has worked within treasury since 1992 and we'll talk today about her career and the early days when she first started in treasury at Willis Group. Then she joined Kingfisher before talking about her current role as the group treasurer of Tesco. As I do with all my guests, we'll talk about where Linda sees the future for treasury and what the future may hold for her and the treasury team, given my recruitment background. We'll also talk about treasury talent and the recruitment ethos of Tesco when they recruit. So there's enough, as always, from me. Linda, let's get started. Looking back at your career, you originally did an accounting degree at university, so was treasury always going to be the plan for you?

I had no idea that treasury as a function actually existed until I got into Treasury. So we're going back a bit, I think, and treasury was perhaps more in its infancy back in the day than it is it is now, I'm happy to say. So I did an accountancy degree and then followed the natural path from there into accountancy. I joined a firm, I trained in audit, got an ACA and then started to think, what next? I knew I didn't want to continue in audit with firm. I also knew that I didn't want to do monthly management account and nor did I want to do internal audit, which were the two kind of obvious paths at that time. And I saw this ad from a recruiter whom I'd never heard of. I wasn't looking for treasury, but this was a role in Treasury And I used that to find out a little bit about what the function was. I went to go and see Susan Ross, who was at Willis doing the interview. And Susan was very passionate about Treasury. She was at that time leading the Education Committee of the Act. And I went in with an open mind and thought it sounded quite interesting. And then she sort of dropped a bombshell. That was, as part of the role, I'd have to do my ACT exam. Yeah, I nearly walked away at that point because I thought, oh God, I've just done my aca, do I have to do more exams? But actually I took it away, had a think about it and decided it was an opportunity. And I guess that's. I'd say there have been a few occasions like that subsequently where my initial reaction has been, oh God, must I? And then I've actually thought, actually, do you know what, that's an opportunity. Someone's going to pay for me to get a qualification that I didn't know existed. But that sounds quite interesting. So I took the role at Willis and I went in as treasury accountant, but as part of the treasury team. And it was a new role and I was new to treasury, so lots of new stuff. I was able to sort of craft that role into something that made sense and made sense for the business at the same time as going very steeply up the learning curve of, of treasury on the technical side. And it was a great, it was a great role. It opened my eyes, really enjoyed it. Did that for about three years and then at that point decided that actually I'd done back office and accounting for that time and I wanted to get some experience of front office and the sort of sharp end of treasury, if you like. And so that, that's why I moved to the role at Kingfisher, which was one of a small team. I think there were five of us, including the treasurer. At that time I went in as assistant treasurer and my role was I took the accounting with me, so I couldn't quite get away from that. But I was also responsible for hedging interest rate, risk management, budgeting, liquidity. I mean, the only thing I really didn't do was the day to day cash management. It was such a small team that I got the opportunity to have a go at lots of different things.

And how was the contrast between. So Willis were an insurance group and financial services to then a corporate and Kingfisher, for those of you that don't know, you owned a number of retail brands. So there's another retailer, is that right?

Yeah, so at the time, actually, Kingfisher was what I'd call a retail conglomerate. I mean, it had B and Q and screw fix, as it does now, but also it had electrical businesses like Comet, it had general merchandise, which were Woolworths at the time. And we also had an entertainment business. So it was really broad ranging. And the reason that that attracted me was that it felt more immediate to me than insurance had done. So I wanted to get into something where I could really get underneath the skin of the business and felt that retail was somewhere where I could do that. And so that plus the role, the small team, the fact that I could develop my treasury career more broadly, were all part of the attraction of going into that role.

And then the, you know, you were assistant treasurer, so small team, as you said, of five. But how did Kingfisher develop through the time? Because you were there nearly 21 years, so obviously you enjoyed it and then you progressed within the role. But, you know, how did the business grow and develop at that time?

Yeah, well, I went there for 18 months. Let me say they wouldn't let you out.

That was it.

Well, let's say I grew as an individual as well as a professional in that time. Yeah, no, I saw it as a stepping stone. I certainly didn't see it as a 20 year stay. And a few things happened. So I think, you know, for a start, I'm just trying to think of a timeline here. So the business was doing okay. There was not really very much corporate activity. And so I think in the first few years I was there, we brought in a new treasury system, we developed the team. So we had then separate.

Sort of.

Back office and accounting teams and front office teams. So it grew, the team there grew. And then in around 2000, 99, 2000, we started changing as a corporate. So we sold Woolworths, then we divested of the electrical businesses. Alongside that, we firstly had a minority stake and then bought out Castorama. So the shape of the group changed. And through that period, which is probably about, I don't know, six, seven, eight years, we changed from being a general retailer to a pure play home improvement retailer. And at the same time, on the personal front, I was. So I went off on maternity leave in 1999, had my first daughter, came back and wanted a bit more flexibility around how I was working. And so I negotiated after that maternity leave that I would come back part time. And at that time I was doing five short days and actually it started, that started in the next 10 years. I was part time for the whole of that period doing different sort of format, the same sort of Number of hours, 25 hours ish, across four days, then five days and mix that around.

A bit and you focus at one stage I think more on accounting. Was that right at the time.

I think I. So I started off focused on accounting. Certainly the role at Willis was in a Treasury accountant role. When I first started at Kingfisher I came in and if you like the accounting, the treasury accounting piece was what I brought to the role, but the role brought to me exposure of front office and dealing in risk management that I hadn't had before. And back at that time there wasn't. So the sort of segregation of duty that you see now between front and back office and accounting and treasury operations was not so well defined as it is now. So I was able to do both those things within the treasury team.

I get asked sometimes going part time, will people, will employers consider it now? Certainly a lot of the time in the front office people say no, we need the people there, you know, full time throughout the week. How. How were you guys able to cope or how did the role sort of shape up around that being part time? Those.

So back then I wasn't. So I wasn't in a day to day dealing, liquidity management role. So that question, if you like, didn't come up. I was assistant treasurer at the time and the team was large at that time because we were handling a lot of corporate activity, so business divestments as well as acquisitions. And so I did, I think, I'm trying to think. When I first went back, I think I did a role that was focused on treasury systems and embedding a new treasury system. And later I did role that was looking at, specifically looking at risk management. So the role sort of changed a little bit as I became one of a bigger team. So it moved away from the one in one of five people. It was when I joined. So at one point I was one of 13 and so I was able to have perhaps if you like, more specialist roles within the team that lent themselves better to do. Doing a part time role.

Yeah, with a bit more project, you know there were projects. Yeah, more project focus to it as well.

Yeah, yeah.

And then you know, obviously developed and then you became the number one. You got the group treasurer role back in 2009. How did that come about or how did you know you've been there a number of years or what happened?

Oh, I've been there. I'd already been there. Well, I don't know. 1414 years or something. So I've been there a long time. I think rewind a little bit. I think one of the, one of the things with being part time is that you never lose that sort of want or desire to be professional. So a lot of part timers, I'd probably say most part timers, you know, trying, trying to do the role to the best of their ability and maintain a really professional level of activity whilst juggling a number of other things. So I would say it's not easy being part time and I think you never lose that desire to be the best you can be professionally and at home or whatever else you're doing. And I guess that for me culminated in, at that time, in 2009, when the group treasurer role became vacant and I took a good look at what I was doing, how much I was enjoying it, what my situation was at home. I had two kids by that time and they were something like 7 and 10. I decided to put myself forward for the role because I thought it would be good. I wanted to do it, essentially, I wanted to do it, I felt I could do it and I thought that I could manage it with my kids at that time. So it had to work on all three of those levels. And so I went for the role and made the decision at that point because it was necessary that I would go back to being full time, which I had not been for 10 years.

I hope you're enjoying this week's show. I just want to interrupt briefly to invite you to be part of what we know to be the best global treasury salary survey in the world. They're bold words, I know, but it's true. We're just approaching the 500 participant mark, so it's a survey of real value, but we still need your help. All you need to do to take part is visit. Treasurysalary.com takes about two minutes of your time from start to finish. And as a reward for taking part, you receive a free copy of our 200 page global treasury salary survey. It's a real practical use to you, whether you're a Treasury analyst in Chicago or a global Treasurer in London. We give you the numbers you need. In the simplest terms, our survey helps you as a Treasury professional, understand what you should be paid. We benchmark your treasury compensation in relation to your peers, both locally and globally. So when you are next asking your boss for that long overdue pay rise and you know you deserve one, well, you have the practical facts you need, just visit treasurysalary.com and I look forward to sending you the next copy of the survey. That's enough from me. Let's get back to the show.

So you made the move to full time and you know, you sort of shaped the team and I know that the group also changed throughout that period. Then when you became the group treasurer as well, sort of evolved again from the sounds of it.

Yeah, I think, I think like a lot of corporates is kind of evolving all the time really. You know, just casting my mind back then we were the kind of M and A activity had ceased a few years before. It was, it was a stable home improvement corporate and that was it, that was what it did.

And.

We were sort of intent on think we were, I guess managing the balance sheet was one of the big things we did and looking, trying to look forward the shape the balance sheet should be and eventually that we did some liability management on our balance sheet and ultimately then started getting into share buybacks and things. So it was quite a different place to over the sort of early 2000s where we'd done a lot of corporate M and A activity.

And so you then you did the corporate activity and then it became much more. Sounds like more financing and a lot more sort of complex sort of treasury. Would that be right?

Well, I think that there was always the kind of core features of any treasury function. So we did liquidity management, we did FX risk management. But I think because I'd stepped up to the number one position to the group treasurer role, I personally got involved in a much broader variety of activity which is, I think quite often what happens. So you kind of step out of a, if you like a specialist and become more generalist. And the sort of things I was doing were much more strategic. Looking at the group's balance sheet. I also got very involved with pensions for the first time when I stepped into that role and we closed the pension scheme to future accrual and we did various de risking activities around that. So I think it wasn't so much that the group changed, but for me personally the role changed and I think that's true of a lot of people that perhaps step up from being a assistant treasurer to a group treasurer. It's a much broader role.

Yeah. And then also your mentoring and managing. How big was the team then when you became the group treasurer back in 09?

So the team I think was about six at the time without going back and counting the heads. In my head it was six. It stayed at kind of five, six, seven really throughout my time there at Kingfisher and what we tried to do was keep the team and the format of the team quite flexible. So I had people in the team with a range of. A range of experience. Some were coming up through, you know, they'd started newly in treasury. And what we tried to do was to, whilst we have job descriptions for each role, we tried to keep that quite flexible with a number of projects and sort of, if you like, share the work around a little bit so that everyone could get some additional experience that they didn't already have on their cv. And that worked quite well. And I think it's possible to do that with a small team where you can be a little bit more fluid with people as they develop.

I think you, because you told me this before and it was in Nick Favier, one of your previous bosses had done that with you and the way he organized there, or you, you guys then delegated the team responsibilities, would that be right?

Yeah, kind of. I mean, Nick is absolutely a master at doing this. And I think it's what we tried to do was say, well, here's what we need to achieve this year, who's interested in doing what? And it was literally that democratic. I mean, there needs to be a little bit of management in the background of that because clearly you need to get to achieve stuff. But, you know, it's a really good transparent way of ensuring that you know what members of the team are interested in, where they see their development being enhanced by certain areas of the function and then trying to match those together.

Okay, and then 2016 came along. What happened? You know, you weren't, we've talked about this before. You weren't actually looking for a role or you know, what happened where you're up to in your career.

I think the context is that I had, I'd been at KingFisher then for 20 odd years. I'd been the last seven years as Treasurer and I had been not actively looking, but starting to think sort of for a couple of years that I needed to do something different. There's something about being in roll for a. You need to make sure you're still being challenged and you're still learning things. And I probably wasn't really being challenged for the last few years. It probably took me at least a year to wake up to that fact. And once I had identified it, I then started having conversations with the CFO about what I could do next. And at that point I was quite open to doing something else within the organization, if we could identify what that something else was. But I guess it got to a point where there wasn't much moving internally. And so I decided that I would perhaps have a think about whether there was anything externally.

Also.

You're trading specialist, you were the head of, you know, treasury, you know, you have that specialist skill set. Maybe go to other places.

Yeah. So. And that might sound obvious to people because what's the first thing you do when you decide you want to move is you kind of put yourself out there in the market. But actually, I think I've been at Kingfisher for such a long time, I was quite wedded to the company. So there was a lot of. A lot of past, a lot of history and a lot of loyalty there. But in the end, I thought, there's nothing happening here. I've done this for long enough and frankly, I was bored. But as I said, it took me at least a year to wake up to that fact and actually understand that that's what was going on. So what's the first thing you do these days when you want to get yourself out in the market? You update your LinkedIn profile. So that's what I did. Made it look. Looked like a cv, really. And. Yeah, and before I had really done much else, I got a call about a role at Tesco and it came totally out of the blue. My first initial thought was, they're based in Wellingarden City, I live in Hampshire. That's just not going to work on any level.

Yeah. 100 miles.

Yes. My husband agreed. But I think kind of loop back round to that, to the discussion we had right at the beginning, which was sometimes your initial reaction is, oh, no, that's not going to work. And then you go away and you just sort of reflect on it a little bit and think about it and think, well, actually, that's an opportunity. And so I think it was similar with. With Tesco. I met the recruiter who was someone that was working for Tesco at the time, sort of screening possible candidates. I met the cfo. We got on very well. I did some research about Tesco and where the company had been and where they were going and the new management team and tried to get under the skin of the culture here a little bit. One of my interviews was with the group people officer. And so she was someone who had been with Tesco for quite a long time, and so I picked her brain on what the culture was like, how inclusive was it, how the company was organized, et cetera, and on the back of all of that, decided that actually this was a really good opportunity. I might say, actually, that within those discussions that I had with both the CFO and the cpo, I was very clear that if I was going to do a role based in Welling, Garden City, living in Hampshire, there needed to be some flexibility around that because I couldn't do a daily commute of 150 miles. Some people can, but I'm not one of those. So especially in a new role. So we talked about flexible working and working from home and mixing it up a bit, and they were very, very supportive of that. And that's how we. That's how it's worked, actually, in the two years I've been here.

And, you know, one of the things that people can do, the web research and anything else, tesc, you know, come through some difficult times prior to that. What was it about that, you know, when you talk to those people, what were they talking about? How it had. What had been like before and how it changed? You know, I don't want to delve into the details of the past stuff, but, you know, how did that come across to you as a person?

Well, I think it was. It was clear, obviously that the company went through a very tough period at the end of 2014 into 2015. I was keen to try and understand what they were trying to do. And the whole focus on customer, on people, and also professionally strengthening the balance sheet was one of the core focuses of the company, which is manna from heaven for a treasurer, really. So it was a combination of understanding the culture, the fact that there was a turnaround, the shape the turnaround was taking, which was very people and customer focused, and the fact that it also played to the things that I had done previously professionally and felt I could add some value.

Add. And you walked in. What was the, you know, day, one week, one month, one. What was the, you know, what were the team like? You know, how did you go about assessing that? You know, as a. Someone that managed a very settled team at Kingfish for many years, you walked in completely fresh challenge. How was that?

Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. When you, when you've been somewhere for 20 years, you're practically institutionalized and starting somewhere else. It's kind of scary and exciting in equal measure. Yeah, I think, you know, it took me a while and I say, you know, I'm still learning about Tesco. It's a very big and, and involved and interesting organization. And, you know, I think it takes, it takes a long time to really get to get to know it. I came in here and there was a team of just under 30 and so I guess I set about getting to know them and what they did, how the team was organized, what the scope of treasury activity here was, just trying to really get underneath what it was. But everyone did and was doing and what we were trying to achieve. And I think the first thing that I did was to try and get a bit of focus back. And so the first thing I tried to do is say, okay, so what are we trying to achieve here and what's the order of priority of doing some of these things? And to try and give them some focus which they could then drive forward with.

And what was the focus? What's your ethos behind treasury in that sense? What's Treasury?

Well, there was a big. As I said before, one of the core purposes of the company was at the time was strengthening the balance sheet. So that one of the strands of what we. We looked at was that we started to have some strategy around that and quite early doors I went and talked to the exec committee about what that looked like and the shape of that. The other thing was that they were six months into putting a new treasury management system in, and that was a very big involved project that was in conjunction with some other teams around the business, so that was in flight and needed some support. And then I think the other pieces were around looking at how efficient our processes were for liquidity management, risk management, et cetera, and trying to work through whether there was scope to improve, improve those.

And when you've got. You've got those individuals within that team and obviously you're on, as we know, you're on a podcast hosted by the treasury recruitment company. But when you're actually looking yourself, recruiting, what is it that, you know, you pick out from a CV or pick up from person, what's key to you when you're recruiting?

Well, I will pretty much go through CVs and look at qualifications on paper. And by qualifications, I suppose I mean qualifications and experience. So I'll look at someone's background and skill set and experience on paper, and then shortlist them in an interview. Interviews with me tend not to be very technical, because what I'm really interested in is someone who is straightforward, who is easy to communicate with, who I can have, I can more or less have a relaxed conversation with. And I think what I try to do in interviews is try and put people at their ease so that I can understand, I can get a sense of what they're like, try and understand why they've come for the interview, what they're looking for in the Role, Whether the role is going to meet those aspirations that they have, either immediately or with some development, you need to try and develop, keep developing people. And so I've had people come to interviews and I've almost tried to talk them out of the role because I think they're already overqualified. So I've challenged them on what it is the role can provide for them and for their career. And sometimes, as a result, that people will say, actually, I think you're right, I'm sort of almost overqualified for this role. And sometimes it really makes them think about what it is they want out of their career. And it's quite a good way of making sure that actually when they get into the role, if they're appointed, they're not kind of disappointed by what they find. So I think having that sort of dialogue in a kind of relaxed, open and honest way is really important. In interviews, you're actually doing that.

Matching someone might match themselves to the role. So, yeah, that's the. But actually, when you get through it, it's actually exploring that with them sort of hand holding them through it, saying, actually, does this match you and their career aspirations? And they might go, yeah, because I.

Think there's a difference, isn't there, to what's written down on paper and then what the role, it really is, you know, you can't say everything in a job spec.

I think it's also, you know, a lot of job description. I certainly receive, you know, detail, the basic stuff, and then it's about, where does it go next? Because that's the. This is what you need to do, day one, but where do you go month one, year one and everything else.

I think that's true. And I think also, if I were going for a role, I'd want to understand how my potential future boss was going to develop me in the role and whether that. Whether actually it was good for me and my career to do this role in the sort of longer, let's say, medium term.

The thing I find, you know, I'm reflecting from that, certainly with potentially the more senior roles, you know, less the sort of treasury managers, more when we recruit the senior treasurer roles, people say, I want to, you know, treasurer come in and shake things up and change things. It was great when you took, as you described, taking the role at Tesco and where they were going to go in the future, but so many times a client says, oh, we want all these changes. Oh, great. And they then say, I'll just get the job description. They reach their Bottom drawer, they bring out the job description from 3, 5 years ago, cross out the day, hand it back. That's what we want. Hang on, that's what you wanted three to five years ago. Oh, yeah, can we do that again? And you're like, come on, guys, we want a commitment to how are you going to grow treasury in the future? And that's sometimes. And that leads me onto the question I was going to say for you, where do you see it growing? Not just Tesco's, but more treasury, holistically, perhaps. And where are you trying to take it?

Well, I think if I just reflect back over my time in Treasury, I think it's an evolution, really, of the role. I mean, for sure, treasury is more strategic now than it was when I started. It's much more widely recognized by the executive team and not just the cfo. It's a much broader discipline. You know, in this role and in my previous role, I was involved in pensions. Some treasurers are involved in insurance. I've done share purchases as part of a share buyback. I think, you know, there's a lot more breadth to the role than there was previously. And the other thing that's changing and that will continue to change is technology. You know, I think back to when I started, and we used to use an electronic banking platform whereby you had daily codes for unlocking the system that were on a piece of paper that the bank sent to you and which were kept in a safe, and we got them out of the safe every day and typed in today's code. You know, that seems prehistoric compared to where we are now. You know, and I think I certainly am not able to predict where the. Where the future looks like in terms of technology. But, you know, I think it just keeps on moving and you just have to keep trying to keep up with it and move with it.

Yeah. And looking back at your career, you've got a wealth of treasury, you're the great treasurer of Tesco's, you know, great role and everything else. If someone once then is listening to this, perhaps earlier stage in their career, what advice are you going to give them? You know, and looking at what's been key to your career success and what should they copy? What should they put into their toolkit, as it were?

Well, I think I've had a lot of luck, but in addition to that, I think the things that you need to do are you need to be prepared to work hard, you need to be prepared to get some qualifications, and I think both those things will stand you in Good stead. The other thing I'd say is that it's not all about moving up what's quite good. And what I did probably the whole time that I was part time, so for 10 years was I broadened my skill set and my knowledge base, so I would actively try and do things that I hadn't done before to keep learning. And actually that stood me in good stead because when the point came, when I had an opportunity to step up, I could take all that experience and knowledge with me and be in a better position to do the more senior role. So I would say my advice would be don't get totally hung up on having to take the next step up the ladder. It's equally important to get a broad range of experience, which you could get in your current role or in a horizontal role, if you like. What else? I guess I've had some great teachers and sponsors and that. That's being able to recognise them and being lucky to have them involved with your career. I've been opportunistic. So back to my comments about seeing things as opportunities rather than issues or problems or blockages. Yeah. And then on top of all of that, having some luck and right place, right time, to a certain extent.

Yeah. Well, I think. I don't think there's. I think that's a great summary of your career and, you know, as you say, broadening it, you know, getting in that virtual toolkit, if you like, of all the different areas within treasury, as you say, gave you the opportunity to get this role.

I think, yeah, I think that's true. It sort of all culminates, really, in being able to bring enough to the table here from my past life to be able to do a good job.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, I don't think I have any. I thought it was a great summary of you and your background and unless there's anything else you wanted to add, I think, you know, I think we should wrap up because it's, you know, a great interview and I just want to say thank you for your time. If someone wants to keep in or make contact with you, best way is via LinkedIn. Is that the best way to sort of connect with you, would you say?

Yeah, LinkedIn is good.

Superb. Linda, thanks for your time today. I'm sure everyone's going to enjoy this and there may be some questions coming to you by LinkedIn. And thanks very much for your time today.

Pleasure. Thanks, Mike.