The Rise of Hybrid Work and AI in Treasury Careers with Mike Richards

Foreign to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where each and every week I normally talk to treasurers about their careers and about how they've grown and developed and the future of Treasury. And this week I'm actually being interviewed. Recently I had the honor of being a guest on the Treasury Update podcast hosted by the fantastic Craig Jeffrey. It was such an engaging discussion with Craig that I thought, do you know what? I'm going to share it with you guys. My listeners, we dove deep into the evolving world of treasury, looking at remote work through to integration of AI and finance. And also for me, it's a bit of an unusual one. It's not every day that I switch roles interviewer to interviewee. Craig did a good, very good job of keeping me on my toes. So enjoy this show and we're gonna be back to normal programs next week. But I thought some valuable insights, real word perspectives that you don't wanna miss. So enjoy it and let's get on with Craig my show.

Welcome to the Treasury Update Podcast presented by Strategic Treasurer, your source for interesting treasury news, analysis and insights in your car, at the gym or wherever you decide to tune in. Welcome to the Treasury Update Podcast. This is Craig Jeffrey, your host today and I have a very special guest, Mike Richards from Treasury Recruitment. Mike, thanks so much for joining, joining me on this episode of the Treasure Update podcast.

I love being on these podcasts with you Craig. It's still very weird for me to you be asking the questions. Usually when I do my podcast, as I've said before, I just love asking questions, sitting back, relaxing. Now I'm under the spotlight, so be gentle.

That's a big no. When I get a big dog like you on you, I'm going to go Just for fun. Well, this is part of the 2024 Outlook series and since you focus so much on treasury careers and staffing, I'll point people to the show notes. Treasury recruitment's based in the uk, but they're also huge in North America. All of North America. Very heavy in that space. I know you come to a lot of events, so welcome. But let's start for the outlook on work location. I know it's not work from home, is it hybrid? Is it reaching equilibrium? What's going on with work location? It's certainly changed a lot from the beginnings of COVID to where we are today. What are. What are you seeing? What are you talking about with the companies that you're recruiting for?

Well, just like in a newspaper, let's start with a headline. Remote is dead. There you go. You can leave with that. I mean, that's. That's the way of things. When I was at AFP conference with yourself in sunny San Diego, I did a session with Joel and Leanne. Great to be with them. And I was being asked about remote jobs. They said, do you work recruitment, remote roles? I went, no, we don't. Oh, why is that? I said, well, firstly, employers need someone remote they can do on LinkedIn and do it themselves, so you don't need a recruiter. I said, also, it's fading, going away, because treasury, by its very nature, is a very collaborative discipline. You want to work with your colleagues. Do you need to be in the office? So going back to it fully on site. No. We proved this throughout Covid. So now a balance. Treasury's about balance in risk balancing and everything else. But treasury, by its very nature, is about working together. It's collaborating, it's working internationally, it's working within the us. If you've got. You're more focused on the us, but you want to see your colleagues. You don't have to be with them five days a week, you don't have to travel all the time. You don't even sometimes. I've seen also good hybrid arrangements where someone might be in the office, say, one week a month, and then the other three weeks they're remote, but they're actually working together. We had Steve Rosenthal on the podcast and live session back in New York and he talked about with Broadridge, they have a very intentional way of working that when people come into the office, you're not allowed to just sit in your office and just not collaborate, plan your time. Planned intentionality, I think it was, and said, sorry for the phrase. No, it's A great one. Because when you're going to go to the office, when he travels there from New Jersey down into Manhattan and actually has the meetings with people, he has meetings. And it's not just over zoom. And you do get more things. You don't have to do it all the time.

Interesting. So, so remote. Dead. I think you said hybrid is, is here to stay. What about work from the office?

I think there has been this pushback about that. I know that some of the big banks, for instance, we, we 100% focus on corporates. But when I'm talking to a lot of my clients, some I was about to name, some I can't because we're getting trouble. But some of those who are saying, well, you've got to be back in the office. Why? What's the reason behind it? Oh, because we've got these big offices, we pay for them. Okay. That's your choice, not the staff's choice. And in actual fact, it's becoming a point of difference when some of the banks, financial institutions, and then also into the corporate space. If you're saying you don't have to be here five days a week, but then if you're saying, well, we're happy with happy. Ish with four. Yeah, that's still not the right message, is it? It's like, well, really, we'd like you here five days. I think again, when I've talked to some of my clients, there are some of them that are saying with their teams, some of their teams still want to come in four or five days a week because it works for them. They're like happy with it. That's great. But they're also happy, just as happy with the team member that comes in two days that week does see them and things like that. So I think the fully on site, what's the word is broken. You don't need that. I just think unless there's a specific reason, and there might be times in a corporate treasury team where you do need to be fully on site for a week, big project, you know, we're all hands on deck, you know, but then the following week, actually, you don't need to be here next week. You know, you can work from home next week. We did it throughout Covid. We proved it.

Yeah. Now, you had mentioned LinkedIn on recruiting side. I know when we chatted last week, you talked about, you know, what kind of roles are recruiting there versus using recruiters, any nuances that you're seeing or any changes that are coming up on the peer recruiter. Versus the, I'll call them the job boards.

Well, let's look at. LinkedIn is obviously the biggest job board per se. I was re. I'd recently been working on a campaign in Chicago and it's ongoing and everything else. Been retained to recruit for a client there. Really great role. But they've been using LinkedIn. And I was like, right, so how's that gone for you? And they went, well, we're talking to you, aren't we? I was like, yeah, exactly, so something's gone wrong. And I was like, okay. And we talked about a number of the people that applied for the role and the way that I phrased it is you've got. You can get a lot of good candidates from there, but you're not getting the candidate that wants to work for you. They're leaving an unhappy home. That is where they're in their current role. There's a reason that's pushing them out, not necessarily attracting them to come and join you. That's what LinkedIn gives you. It's a massive pool of potential talent. But is that necessarily right for yourself? Not necessarily. You're talking to people that are wanting an exit path from, from a company, not necessarily wanting to come and make an X career step with you.

Yeah, you don't necessarily want someone running from, but more someone running to. I like the way you said that, you know, on the, on the physical event side, you know, we went from COVID where everything went virtual 2023 to me, seemed like so many corporate practitioners and tech firms and banks went to the physical event. They just really, really concentrated there. Is that what you're seeing? And do you see that balancing out more as we go forward? I, I've got some thoughts on that too, across the board. But what are you suggesting here?

Well, I, I definitely want to hear your thoughts about it in a moment. That'd be cool. But you boss me, so I'll answer first. You said about how much I specifically focus on the us as you very kindly put earlier. Now, my colleague, another great Craig, he focuses more on the uk, Katie focuses more on Europe. Let's give you an example there. So between Katie and I, we're going to be doing three, maybe four events in Europe next year or this year. Craig will be doing three stroke, four in London and surrounds. I'm going to be in the US 12 to 13. 12. 12 to 14 times. And if that doesn't prove that at live events, not just coming over, we're running two events in March at Times Square where we're going to be talking to some amazing treasurers. Dana laid hold from Nasdaq, we've got Chris Cocam from Adeba. Great treasurers and treasurers want to be back in the room. We ran our Treasure Career Corner live in London a year and a half ago and we had a hundred people sign up, 85 showed up. A year later when people started to know about it and see this event, we had 150 say yes and it was a wet cold night in November and the horrible trains, everything else, 130 people showed up in the room and it's only growing. People want to be back and seeing their colleagues actually meeting, talking, treasury, getting discussion within the same with their peer group. What are you doing with this tms? What are you doing with rates? Also now treasury by its very nature is, is, is showing its value once again with inflation. And actually people are going, yeah, cash isn't free anymore. So we're proving why we're here, why we're employed. I mean, what are your thoughts? Greg, you said about live events?

Yeah, you know, one of the things that we've seen because we do a lot of live events and we do a lot of virtual events and virtual events and activities skyrocketed. With COVID that was the only option. 2023 seemed to be certainly from the fintech vendor side, more focused on almost, I wouldn't say exclusively focused, but some exclusively focused on physical events. And we've seen this kind of this rebound just like the work location has gone from everyone was work from the office and it was all work from home. And now it's remote is dead. But it's hybrid. Hybrid is the new environment, I think that's happening on the events too. Everyone wants to go to physical events, but you can only go to so many physical events and there's more engagement that happens. And so we've seen a rebound, you know, back to sort of this equilibrium between physical events and virtual events. Because you can go to more virtual events. You may not have as much dialogue depending on the type of virtual event. Like a webinar is, you know, one sided communication for the most part. Roundtables can work virtually during the time you're talking. A roundtable in person or a conference means you can have these sidebar conversations. So it just, I don't know, it just seems like we've kind of, we've driven over both sides of the, both edges of the road now where the new road is, you know, hybrid in both environments, physical and virtual.

I think there's that. I think also we've come out of an age where you didn't need to always go to events. You could prove. You could go to a webinar to get some more of the technical subjects, maybe. But actually, this is why we're doing Treasury Career Corner Live. And this isn't a sales pitch, this is much more. What I've noticed is that people want value. Right. If I'm going to come out of my home office, I'm going to make the effort. It's going to cost me to travel to your event. What are you going to give me in return? What value you going to give me as a Treasury practitioner for spending an hour on the train, an hour, then at your event, then some networking afterwards? Okay, what. What's my. What's my go to? What are you going to give me? And if you're not providing that value, if it's just, oh, come along and talk about AI or come along and talk about this. Well, hang on, I can do that virtually. It's more. Again, that's why we're doing where we're talking to practitioners about their treasury careers, because there's nothing better than that in the room. And. And it's not pat myself on the back, it's quite the opposite. It's more that I've discovered this. This wasn't something I planned. It's just from. It's come out of the podcast and everything else. And then I've been to a couple of other networking events which have been. And I was, again, I won't say whom they. I showed up expecting a full room and I was like, where is everyone? And it was like, yeah, it's not really worked out. And I think that those listening today are much more selective with their time. They don't have to go out there. I know that there are events which you have to go to maybe for your CTP credits and things like that. That's. But people are. Then I've got to go to that. It's. It's actually people. And if it's an optional event, you've got to have a real pull factor.

Yeah. Now, as we, you know, continue the discussion, you know, of how these changes have taken place with physical events, with where people work. What about shifting jobs? You know, before COVID and after? What are you. What are you seeing are the biggest differences now in terms of how people are looking for positions or hunting for positions?

It already started before COVID but it wasn't all the way there. We saw Covid actually brought along and the pandemic accelerated. Five years worth of flexible working or compressed if you like, five to 10 years worth of work change compressed into two years. So everyone was like, wow, okay. Their heads have just got used to it. What I mean by this and the follow up point is people don't need your job, People don't need to work, people don't need to leave a lot of the time, yes, they might need to leave and we talked earlier if they're unhappy where they are and not get the right salary. But you need to come up with an irresistible proposition. You need to attract people to your role. Why should I come and join your company? And it's more about people will vote with their feet. Or I get clients and they say, well, people should want to come here. And I really tell me why. And it's got to be that sort of irresistible proposition. It's got to attract people that I've told. I've been working on this assignment recently for this client in Chicago. I've been talking to candidates each and every day and I talked to a great candidate on Friday and he was attracted to the role but I still had to talk to him about why it's going to help his career, succession, planning, all the other things. It wasn't like you just put an advert or exciting dynamic. We don't do that, by the way. We don't put it out there because it's just platitudes and people like I don't care, I'm not going to volunteer with. And he said I'm going to have to update my resume because I wasn't looking for role. I'm interested in my next career move. But people aren't necessarily. Response rates are down and this is where we prove our value. Again, I don't want to make it a sales pitch is much more. This is what clients have to understand. They've said to me, oh, we put our advert up on LinkedIn. I was like, yeah, how'd that go for you? They're like. And I can see a lot of the time responses two and then it's reposted 17 times. I'm like, guys, come on. There's. I think I gave you a practical example. There was a candidate back last year, a client actually and he had been a candidate of mine before and he was recruiting, trying to recruit. And they are a global, global multinational based in the U.S. one of the top companies to care for the sector. And he actually said, I don't understand. We are great with this in it taken him. He was moving across internationally. He did all this stuff and was literally. I said, is this just literally your job description? More or less copy and pasted? And he was like, mostly so. But for the past 10 minutes, you've told me about your incredible career moves that you've told me about internationally. You've moved from the us, you've been across in Germany, then you've been back, then you went Latin America, now you're back, you've got this great career. He said, yeah. I said, it tells me nothing about this and this job advert. I said, this is just a list of responsibilities. Right? And they went back to the drawing board. I said, look, once you've done this and encapsulated why you enjoy your job, to be honest, you're not going to need me. And sure enough, they weren't. They actually. This is a real developmental role, real great stepping stone. I said, you're going to attract enough candidates. And they did, both internally and externally. It's not enough now if there are clients out there thinking, oh, we're just copying and pasting a job description, don't. It's a job advert. You have to advertise a role. You have to attract people and you have to put yourself in the, in the, in the candidates in their. Sit in their seat. If you were in their position, would you want to apply for that job? What is it that's magical? How's it going to enhance their careers? It's got to be that. Otherwise you're just not going to get any more.

Right. Especially in many cases. If they have to move, they're going to be getting rid of a low mortgage and having to swap it for a higher mortgage.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Getting started on salaries is crazy. I mean, the US Market in terms of salaries is rising rapidly. We're doing our latest global salary survey. We're just crunching the numbers now. And I've just seen these good rises. But are they above the cost of inflation? Are they above the cost of living? Sometimes they're not. They're just keeping pace. People are looking far more at that.

Yeah. And in the show notes, we'll, we'll, we'll drop a link to the Treasury Career Corner, which is Mike's podcast where he interviews all kinds of people for various topics, mostly on treasury careers. Certainly subscribe. And look at that, Mike, as we shift over to. Our last topic is really discussing artificial intelligence. This is a. More people are talking about it. We just completed some research on artificial intelligence and generative AI. As you're doing recruiting, are you having more conversations about AI? What are they like? Is this a people looking for those that are aware of it, learning about it, have skills in it. How are your partners looking at artificial intelligence and finance and treasury in particular?

Best work? Yes, yes, all of the above. There you go. And that's it. Bye.

Thanks, thanks. Thanks for joining.

Joking aside, that's it. It's like some clients are looking for. If it's a particularly systems focused role, of course they're going to be looking for system skills. And part of that is this new the new tools that are coming to bear. Data tools, AI analytics and everything else. Am I getting people that saying they want someone that's a data guru in Treasury? No. Is it nice to have? Yes, definitely. If. Is it great if someone studied Python? Great. Is it. Do they need crows? Do they need all the different things with it? Yeah, those are great things to have. Do they have vba, do they yet? If it's a technical role. But am I getting people saying, right, my deputy treasurer needs to be that unless they are going to be in charge of a massive systems project and that's going to be their go to thing. No, not necessarily. What I do get more and more requests for is and I see treasurers being much more system savvy, much more data savvy, if you like, their translators, they will be able to, as they have been for many years, they will be the middleman. So a CFO again. When we talk on the podcast, a lot of the weeks I've seen that we've done it for five and a half years and it was something that was happening again pre Covid and things like that. I've seen more and more CFOs asking their treasurers to be their, their root man if you like, or woman, their root person, their tracker, their guide. Say, look, can you go out a few years ago as blockchain? Can you look at blockchain? Is that right for us? Crypto, do we need to stop this? And now let's move AI. How do we do this? And I am seeing it coming more in AI cash forecasting tools. AI being used in different areas as it and it's rapidly developing and I think we spoke in our pre podcast, one of my clients, he's actually they've got their own AI for their company. It's completely ring fenced. There are no public sort of linkages if you like, but they're using it in a way. They're IT guys have got it. So that he was looking the other day as a treasurer about something quite technical. He's in insurance and things. He literally just, oh, I'll use this, use this AI bot. That probably would have taken him two or three days of reaching out to people, phone calls and he put in this request and data and understanding and blah blah, blah. And it gave him lots of the answers and then two or three other people he should talk to internally and actually gave him some of the technical information he needed. So instead of having two or three days research, it was five minutes on that he went to the right person, they gave him the right information. It was the speed of response that he was able to go to his boss, the CFO and a day later and go, oh, here's the paper by the way. He was like, hang on, no, I was gonna. That was next week. He said, yeah, I've got it. Do you, have you got any comments? Well, yeah. Wow. How did you do this? He said, I didn't do it that quick. He said I had a, Our bot helped us. That's it.

My army did it. My bot army did it.

Yeah, my bot, my army of bots. But he was, he was very. And I think that's one of the things we talk about, dangers of it and things like that. They're very heavily ring fenced. And I was like talking to him, we're going to talk about it, I'm going to see him soon as well, because I'd love to know about it.

That makes sense. You know, the idea of, you know, protecting data, you don't push it out into the public versions of that where it learns off of your internal data. Right. There's all kinds of issues. But if you have it inside and it's learning on your corporate data and it's kept within your walls, that's perfect because it has that power. I liked your description. I don't think you didn't call them guide. Maybe you said guides.

Guides. Yeah, the guys like the rude guys, like sort of the trackers. That. Yeah, and it's, and that's what I've seen. And it was, it was happening before AI, it was happening before data. It was 10, 15 years ago. I've been in treasury recruitment 25 plus years. And the thing was I had a number of CFOs. Again, we talked about this where a CFO said, again, I was speaking for JP Morgan at a session they had before Christmas and I was being asked, is the, is the role of a treasurer changing? And I said, well, what do you mean by this? And they said, well, our CFO is asking for different things. And I went, do you know what? It depends. All right, great. Yeah, nice definitive answer. But no, it depended on. I had one of my treasurers there. It wasn't luckily the session, but one of my treasurers. Recently, he's just started to look for a new role. Why? Previous CFOs left. Previous CFO saw his. Him as a Treasury, as the visionary. He said, look, can you check this technology? Can you do this for me? Can you do. Can you really be my, my filter to all of those things? And he's like, yeah, brilliant. No problem at all. New CFOs come in, they see the role. They said, oh, my previous treasurer worked for me. Yeah, yeah, they managed the cash and looked after all that. Right, okay. That's where I see your role. I really like you to do that. He's like, okay, no problem at all. Mike is my resume. It depends on what the CFO and what they're and also can be the company and the stage of development of companies. There's a lot more issues, but I think that that is the leader helps. What do they see the role of the treasurer being?

Yeah, if the role is to look at risks, to understand to be a partner from a business perspective, not. Not just securing credit capital and doing transactions, using and leveraging tools that help you do that more effectively. Effectively is useful. I keep going back to what you just shared about that example of the person using the tool and it gave him guidance and information as well as people to follow up on. And then he spoke to people who are the experts as opposed to just saying, hey, what this system told me is the truth. Because a lot of those, especially the language, you know, you know, the generative language ones, they'll make stuff up that doesn't really exist and you have to be careful. So you have to have someone who knows this is right. This saved me a lot of time. And this part is fiction, right? It didn't really exist. That seems to be the skill with using this type of tool on AI.

I was gonna say we. We use it ourselves. We use ChatGPT, but it's quite funny in recruitment, I'll tend to see, oh, that article, that's completely from AI. And I was hearing a friend's podcast, he does it about Mark Williams, Mr. LinkedIn does it about this and how LinkedIn is going to be looking for guidance on that. Making sure that people aren't just producing content is all AI driven. And we don't do that. What we do do, though, is if I'm looking at rephrasing something or wanting to summarize thing, and rather than me think for half an hour, go, hang on, Chuck it in there. What are the. What. What are the good points I'm making in there? What are the. Where do I need to tweak it? What should I think about? What, where. It helps me distill my thinking a lot quicker and easier. My web guy, also James, he's done a. I've got my own bot with my own face. Lucky, lucky thing. It's horrendous. But the fact is what it does, it knows my tone of voice and it listens. So we might take, for instance, a transcript to this. So this is. These are the kind of points might make. And, and there's some of the custom instructions on there which say Mike's very direct. He's straight to the point. He, you know, it doesn't fluff around for 10 minutes. It's like, right, don't do, do this, don't do that. Because we're all short time. So, yeah, that's one of the key things I try and focus on. And that's what we've taught my bot to do. But there are. Sometimes when it forgets my custom instructions, it goes, I was doing an article, yeah, blah, blah, blah, makes a straight shooter, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, my God, stop. I would never. And I said, I literally just gave it a slap. I went, I would not. You forgot my customers. Oh, apologies. Yes, I should have looked at those. And then as soon as it did, it came out with a paragraph of text. Much more. It sounded much more like me, but I only used. I didn't copy paste. I took it and then amended it. It, you know, helps you. It's not the solution.

Mike, thanks for, thanks for all your comments on work location, physical events, job shifting in AI. Any final, Any final thoughts?

Send me a resume. If you're looking for a role, if you need to recruit and you just want some advice, call us. I'm looking forward to seeing you guys. Lots of the conferences right away from New York, across to Nashville in 2024 and talking more treasury, what could be better?

Sounds great. Thanks so much, Mike.

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