The State of the European Treasury Recruitment Market with Katie Hardie

Foreign to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. So I'm joined here by Kitty. You in a way have lots of people have been talking to you since 2024 and end of 2023 about how you know treasury talent shortages are there them? Is that true? Is it false? What is there? What are you seeing in the European market in particular?

What I found across Europe look at treasury analysts and treasury managers. The demand versus not not aligned at all. A lot of demand for this level. But when it comes to the quality of those candidates and the level of availability of those high calibre candidates, it's just not there. And I think one of the things to mention here is that historically candidates have always been more operational at this, at both of these levels and now the demand shifted slightly. Companies want to have those technical skill sets and that operational side. They also want to have this strategic mindset and that's really presented some problems when it comes to recruiting talent.

Is that because. Sorry, is that because treasurers and senior treasure haven't trained those treasury analysts and managers for that step up, do you think?

I think that could be part of it but I think also it's just the way that the corporates are shifting their focus and the trends that are in the treasury market. I don't need to tell people that the whole implementation of a system they want people that can project manage that and before they, they didn't have that, that need and a lot of people are having that shift really. And I think what we've also seen is there has been a big focus across Europe on looking at the structures and the departments as a whole within treasury and really moving to more modern structures, more international structures and more diverse teams. There's a big focus on diverse teams and also that can present when you're.

Recruiting, you're trying to recruit a diverse team team in a talent short market or challenge market. And then you're saying, we want to also have him implement diversity as well. When, for instance, number of ladies have left, the females have left the workplace, if they're going off to have children then coming back, people have got to make accommodation, help them, haven't they?

Yeah, they have. And I think it, I think the focuses have definitely shifted and I do think that, that because they are, because companies are looking at getting those basics right, the technology and various different things like that. They are growing the teams at more analyst and manager levels and people just aren't. There just aren't enough around there, around that level. And on top of that, that's also really inflating salaries at these two levels as well because everybody's fighting for the really strong candidates. And so they've got the pick of the corporates and they know that they can pretty much get paid a lot more than perhaps their experience level is worthy of.

Yeah. Because they're in demand, they can leverage that a little bit. And I actually both you and I have talked. I was talking recently to a global treasure in the Netherlands, global treasurer in Switzerland, and one of the things that came out from the conversation was they are now being. It's one of the questions when, both internally, when they're moving staff around, they've returned from pandemic and now there's flexible working which is on there and everyone talks about it. But the key thing is, I was interviewed on another podcast myself and I said remote is dead in Treasury. They wanted a headline. It was a headline because it's true. The fact is, treasury by its very nature is collaborative. And then when I brought this up with both these global treasurers, they both said, yeah, we don't work remotely. There were a number of treasurers for treasury professionals, for instance, in one of their organizations, they moved their. They integrated rather they had two treasury centers in the same country in the Netherlands, they brought them together in one headquarters. And some of the staff that, oh, we want to work remotely, we can just do this. And. And he said, if you're just task focused and you just want to get stuff done and you don't want to be part of the team. We're very happy. Oh, okay. To let you go. Oh, not so happy. Yes, we are a team and there is. And they're not saying you. And again, one of the things that he was keen to point out, it wasn't like you have to be in it was more. We have to. We work as a team, we work collaboratively, we work like that. And that's how treasury blends itself. And I don't want to just make this all about hybrid, but I think that's one of the issues that there has to be. There is still a few treasury centers in and across Europe. I've seen, and maybe I'll get it back from you, Katie, that they're saying, oh, we do want to be pushing back more into the office. More into the office. It's like, why, you know, we prove we don't need to. So, you know, what are your thoughts there?

One of my questions about that, because I know there's pockets in the States where it's a lot more common and in the UK that people go in the office sort of five times a week. I think in Europe it's more of minority rather than a majority to ask for more than two or three days in the office. And I think that's because Europe has always been slightly further forward in terms of flexible working than other regions. Sorry, than other markets.

Yeah.

I do think, though, we are seeing a slight shift where it's becoming more three days in the office. But actually people do want that blend. And I think the other thing in Europe is, and I've seen it with a couple of clients where their head offices are just slightly out of sort of key towns. And I think if they open up, they are flexible with their hybrid working, it opens up the pool of candidates even more. So, actually, when we are looking for candidates that have the technical and the soft skills, but also that strategic mindset, it just gives us a little bit more scope to be able to find those top candidates.

And one of the other things that we were quizzed about, retention and salaries, incentives. And you and I have talked a lot about this and you. We were just looking at some of the figures that we do, our global salary survey. We're just about to run the figures again for 2024 and looking at salaries. But our salary survey just doesn't do salaries. It also looks at the market and some of the feedback from people. Now, one of the key things, which is amazing actually, is when you actually look at it, and I've done this with none. I was talking to a group of treasurers back in Paris before Christmas and I was talking to them and we're talking about incentives, salaries and everything else. And you. I know you and I have discussed this, that in actual fact, it's not about the money. We can say, show us the money, it's not actually about the salary. When I was talking to that group of treasurers, I said, and this covers actually globally, but particularly focuses on Europe, which we'll come back to you, Katie, about that. But when people have said, is it about the salary? What makes people happy? And actually I was just looking at some of the. The factors. Salary out of our list is fifth. Fifth out of. Well, we looked at 10 factors, it's fifth. So in actual fact, it's about being a good boss or manager of your team. It's about good work, life, balance. Never more so. Nowadays they look at hybrid and everything else, having a friendly, supportive team. So again, getting back as a team and then the variety of work. And then fifth came competitive salary. This was about your happiness factors, what makes you happy. I've quoted that to a number of treasures before. And they said, how do I keep my team? I said, go and ask them. Sit down and ask those four simple questions. Blend them if you want. But say, how are you finding me as a boss? Am I giving you the right work, life balance? How are you finding the team? Are we giving you enough variety in the work we're giving you? And with that, 80% of your levers don't leave. You know, that's the chief reason. And if you're doing that. And then the flip side. And again, more the unhappy crew and people like that. Salary was an issue, but it was much further down. It was about career progression. Are we incentivizing you, developing you, your achievements? What am I like? Work, life balance. And again, salary was. Salary was right in the mix, but much further down. Are you getting that feedback from European treasury professionals, Katie?

I think just picking up on what I've mentioned before, I think when it comes to more of the analyst level in particular, they are more focused on salary and not so much on the lifestyle, what I would call lifestyle benefits, but I think the more senior you go, it definitely what I've noticed with a lot of candidates I'm speaking to is it's salary isn't the main driver for them. It is around. What's the culture like? What is, what's the person that I'm going to be reporting to like? What's their leadership style, what retention incentives are there, what training and development is there? So it's more those kind of things rather than just to focus on, okay, what's the salary and what's the bonus?

Brilliant. Other things that we're looking at, I'm just looking at some of the notes that you And I have made before this catch up. If you like education training. Are you seeing that much about that people saying in Europe, oh, you must have a formal education, formal qualification in treasury or not so much.

Well, I know Craig and I have spoken about this quite a bit because it's very different in the uk, which he will talk about, but that obviously a lot of people want to have degree level within the field which relates to treasury. But actually the focus for me has never really been on that education or being a member of an association or anything like that. It's, it's a nice to have but it's not a must have when I'm looking.

Yeah, okay. And then predictions for the outlook as we look across the medium to long term, the rest of 2024, maybe a bit further. I was actually asked to do 10 year predictions but I can barely remember past the the end of my nose. Really. What are you thinking is coming along for yourself in Europe?

The market will stay as busy as it has been, probably a little bit busier when people are looking at the structures of their teams. I do think hybrid working will still remain and that isn't going to change. I think there will be a lot of focus. I think there's a bigger gap in skill set between the manager level right the way through to treasurer level. So I think there will be a focus on retention incentives for that sort of really senior position. I think also because of hybrid staying and because of the skill set, strategic skill set gap, I think there will be more focus internally leaders to really be able to lead effectively and upskill their current teams. Really?

Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you very much for your predictions on Europe. Thanks very much for your time. Thank you very much for listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Wanted to catch up with you at the end of today's podcast to invite you to Join us in 2024 at one of our treasured Career Corner live events. Throughout the us, throughout Europe, throughout the uk. So we're going to be ride the way across and we start the world tour for Treasure Career Corner live in New York on Wednesday the 6th and Thursday 7th of March. You don't want to miss them. You're gonna be there. If you're in New York, please look it up. Register you've listened to the podcast, you can actually get to meet some of the guests live. You get to meet me live. I've kind of everything. But anyway, no, I hope you'll come and join us talking treasury careers. Each event starts at 6:00 clock with registration 6:30 to 7:30. I meet with the guests, I talk to them on a live panel it's live version of the podcast after all. And then we do networking drinks. So the first one say in New York in Times Square, then we actually move on. We've only got 65 people per night that so we're booking up and then we're hitting the road. We're doing Treasure Career Corner live in cities across the us, UK and Europe. We'll be at Kariba Live in Las Vegas, will be at Texpo in Houston. We're also stopping off in Dallas and then we've got other of our own events in Chicago, London, Athens, Luxembourg, Frankfurt. What could be better? So if you keep an eye on the website, we'd love to see you there. Keep an eye out for dates and venues. We're coming to a city near you. If you want to connect with us, just reach out to me. Can't wait to see you in 2024. Treasury Career Corner Live the World Tour. See you soon.