The State of the UK Treasury Recruitment Market with Craig Perkins

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show Notes. And now let's get on with the show. So this is the UK segment of our compilation episode. You can listen to the full episode if you want, or this is just the Focus on the UK where I talk to Craig Perkins about the current state of the UK treasury recruitment market. Well, enjoy the show. So we're talking about the outlook for 2024. I've got the lovely Craig Perkins. We will talk to Katie later in the show. So Craig heads up our UK division, Katie leads on Europe and I focus more on the senior level and the us. That's where I'm spending a lot of my time. But Craig is all in on the UK. We've got some great events coming up in 2024, we've got one in April and we got one later on in the year, a couple actually, one in June and one in November. So looking forward to seeing lots of treasury professionals. But before then, Craig, can you maybe talk about what the state of the UK treasury market is? Are there shortages? Where are you seeing the challenges, if you like?

Yeah, thanks, Mike. There's definitely been quite a substantial noticeable ramp up, quite a good time in the market in terms of a lot of internal teams making the most of the speculation of people thinking what might be out there for me. So you do see a lot of that and especially we talk around the pr, analyst, manager level of the market, that there has been a decent amount of things out there. I'd almost go as far as to say the amount of opportunity probably outweighs their need. That shortage of talent, where actually the amount of talent in the market, the shortage is due to the amount of opportunity that is on the market at the moment. As strong as some of the more prominent times of the year, but definitely in terms of the need for specific skills, it does said like that kind of sources, Mike?

So, Craig, are there any particular areas which are in highest demand or the most difficult to recruit? What are you seeing again from the uk?

What I would say on that note is that something I did find going through most of Q4 of last year as well, is the ongoing demand for qualified treasury accountants. I can quite comfortably say, following quite a good number of conversation in our market and introductions to new people even outside of our, outside of our network, that just because you've got really good treasury accounts, treasury analysts out there who are becoming qualified, acca, SEMA qualified, the general consensus is that some of these people who have even gone through these qualifications don't really necessarily want to get into treasury accounting. They want to utilize those skills to do other, more operational things in treasury. And I think that's one of, that's been one of the biggest challenges I found. And it's not a problem. I mean, to want a broader experience is fantastic, but it's certainly one thing that's proved more of a challenge, that people are wanting broader remits now.

But if they do want to go into sort of that middle office, treasury accounting role, elevated salaries, a good, good area to go to springboard your career, do you think?

I would say so. And absolutely making it very clear, if you've become a qualified, become fully qualified accountant within your current company and they're not going to be able to utilize your full, your new full skill set, let's say all less than you can, then you're going to be looking externally for those opportunities and, and they're going to, and they're going to pay well about a number of conversations with clients and potentially new clients recently, even in January, where they told me about that their analysts and their team have recently become qual or very close or close to becoming from last year and when they might be coming this year and I've sat down with them and gone, okay, you want to have that pay review book when that's going to, when that's going to line up. I don't mean that in a jest at all.

Again, if you are more qualified. I do sometimes, particularly when we come onto education qualifications in the uk, and that's an interesting one because sometimes when we're talking a bit further in the conversation, but when people get a Treasury qualification, for instance, they then go back to their bosses, say, look, I'm more qualified, I'm more useful to you. And they said, yeah, but we paid for that qualification. And they say, yeah, but now I'm in higher demand. Do I get a pay rise? And sometimes they're like, yeah, I'll talk to you about it. 612 months. Whoa, hang on. That's when often I know that we get these. Sometimes the lists come out, say, yeah, they've qualified, they're qualified. And a lot of the time, unless there's recognition of that internally, that people will approach us on that part. Educational qualifications in the uk, Katie and I talked about it. In Europe, it's less prevalent that they want a formal education, degree level and things like that. That's one of the things they want. And then maybe looking at treasury qualifications in the us, there's the ctp. I know in the uk, it's slightly different, isn't it, that the act with their qualifications. Do you find that yourself? Everyone's saying you must have a qualification.

That's a good segue into that, actually, Mike. And yes, I would. You do tend to find, at the more. Not entry level, but at the kind of the most beginning all that journey to the more mid level of someone's treasury career, it is prominent terms of an expectation, I would say not so much in terms of needing to be a qualified accountant, unless you're going down that kind of route. And like I said to you, backtracking slightly, even if you've got those accounting qualifications, I wouldn't be assuming those people want to go into that part of it of Treasury. They want to have a bit more broadness. We'll talk about that a bit later. In terms of being one of the main reasons people are looking to. Looking to make that shift over to something else. But the act is definitely prominent at that. At more entry level, mid level of the market. Certainly if you're quality, if you can be through your years and your tenure, qualified for experience, it's not as relevant. It's always going to be highlighted on a job description, it always will be. That's not going to change. But certainly the need for it. If you've got good experience and you've got a good narrative and you can talk through that experience, you can give really great examples of projects you've been involved in. It's not as required, but certainly the question will be asked and I can every single time, what? Why have you not done this or have you considered this? Because also they are thinking, one of the best ways we're going to retain. And this will come another later, Mike, we're going to retain this talent is going to offer stunning support. This person's got no interest in doing it. Then it's. It's a knock to the belt they can't use.

Yeah, exactly.

And.

And actually flipping around the question. So that's a question to a candidate, if you like, about, are you going to study? Have you got qualified? And things like that. The flip side, which we've seen, is about candidates asking clients about their working style practices and obviously hybrid. Now, again covering Europe, Katie said it was early adopters. I think they were actually doing it pre pandemic and things us went all the way through and back and then we've come to five days a week sometimes and that's most negative effect on short list, if you like. I've had a couple of clients. Oh, we're five days a week in the office. We go, look, only one in 20 people wants to be in the office five days a week. So they've actually had to move to that hybrid or just literally not be able to recruit people. Is that similar for the uk, a different approach? What are you seeing for the UK with maybe candidates? Is it. Are they asking that as soon as they pick up the phone? Or what's the situation?

I would say, Mike, about. We're about two, three years in now, aren't we? To when all these changes really took effect. Most, the vast majority of companies, a whole and certain Treasury Department, have settled in now. They've embedded in these new ways of working, whether that be through company policies or is that the line manager expressed, which is still quite a common thing. So that doesn't necessarily give certainty if someone's moving into a new role and people want that certainty. I would actually say in the uk, one thing I have noticed, and this has been all the way through December and January, speaking to lots of clients and companies in the market, in the corporate space, is that it is actually been quite industry specific. You know, we look at companies where you've got heavy amounts of workforces within, like engineering or logistics, where a lot of the workforce can't work remote. So there's that uniformity approach. And they want to have, yes, they want to be collaborative, but they're also thinking, well, most of our workforce can't be remote. So actually we're going to try and make it, you know, fair across the field. And so those companies, you know, are using that as their narrative, but they know the challenges that's going to present them because the majority of people, and the on average, as an example, is two to three days a week in the office. Some of the companies in your Oxford, Cambridge area being even more flexible to Encourage people, you know, into those areas. So we're seeing that. But one of the most important things I would note around employees embracing hybrid is to understand that a lot of great, a lot of great talents out there have adapted their lifestyle. I've had a number of conversations this week with really senior professionals in the market where you know what, during COVID they bought a dog or they started a family and they've got a young family. So actually when they're doing like preschool drop offs or they're all there's that adaptation and, and those people are going to be off the market, those companies and they do accept that, they do know that they're fishing in a smaller pool and we, we have to be partner with them to tackle those challenges. But there's definitely going to be a lot more options to you because most people are looking for what they're at now, you know, with the current employees. And a lot of people look in the market when their companies make blanket judgments around the working, the working situation. It's almost like a company doing an office relocation. If you tell everyone all of a sudden you're coming in most of the week, it has the same impact.

And from that you and I have talked very much about salaries. We run our salary survey and everything else. And I know that I've sent you for instance just past couple of days the most recent snapshot of why people are wanting to be in a job. And we're talking about we do a salary survey and everyone said oh, so it's about the salary then? And actually it's not. And it talks about that hybrid working and all the other things. And just looking at that, Craig, what are the. Is it the same when seems to be the same across the piece, doesn't it?

Yeah, we were talking around how these companies are retaining that talent in salaries. One of the main reasons for people to make a move, I think it would be fair to say don't look to move for the same or less money unless they, they really has to that situational. But for the vast majority of people they are looking for that step up but it's balanced out with that way of working.

And we talked there, Craig, a bit about hybrid being back in the office and some of those things. But what are the other key factors? Retaining treasury talent because beyond salaries, which we've. We do our salary survey and everything else, we found it's not like that as well. And I know with the particularly the UK portion of you were the one that originally said, Mike, can we ask a Question about why people are happy or unhappy in their roles. What have you found?

Yes, absolutely. It's pretty important to know that piece funny enough the most prominent one and this happens on multiple times a day we're having phone calls or even with the salary survey result it's very much those that relationship with your direct line manager is very important. People stick around in in jobs largely down to even if they don't feel like they're necessarily getting market rate because actually they really value the partnership and the approach to work. So that good kind of work life balance the relationship you have with your line manager, with your boss, you're having that friendly supportive team around you and the broadness of your role. If you're pigeonholed into what you're doing and that that's those in the salary survey might the result I'm pretty confident all come above the salary you're getting paid.

Okay. And then we don't want to take too much time with the listeners and things like that but overview of the outlook if you like for 2024. What are you seeing from the UK market? We Katie and I talk about Europe and us later on in the show but what are you seeing from the uk?

Yeah I think in the UK market this year, if it fails off the back end of the last quarter last year and it carries on to the planner as it is, there's going to be a good amount of opportunity out there and so you're going to have the opportunity to be able to make good informed decisions. And I think one thing is really important to bear in mind and this is where we mentioning myself here and mentioning what we do it's important to note that when you look at opportunities out there that might be direct with companies it's important to realize that your narrative and the story and your why isn't something that shows on your CV profile and to be able to have an ability where someone can articulate that for you. Because if you upload your profile with all these opportunities that might be on the market, yes you might get a meeting but you don't really understand if it's the quite the place you would want to work to understand understand the culture beforehand because someone might describe the culture of a company on a job description but yes you're taking at face value what that team will look like, how it's going to structure out and is it going to improve upon what you're offer, what you're oiling at now the outlook is going to look positive. I think it's Important that people make good, informed decisions and look, look for guidance and support. We give out free advice. They're very happy to do that on all sides of the coin, whether it's through a candidate or a client. And we want to advise on that piece. And I think embracing that part where, you know, having someone else be able to explain your why you've been enrolled rather than just taking a CV is. Is going to be. It's gonna be very important this year.

Yeah. And I think actually you've got the experience we've got as a firm, 25 plus years experiences. It's not a sales pitch.

Embracing that part where, you know, having someone else be able to explain your why you've been sitting in the role rather than just taking a CV is, Is going to be. It's gonna be very important this year. Yeah.

And I think actually you've got the experience we've got as a firm, 25 plus years experience. It's not a sales pitch, just a statement of fact. Some of our competitors, if you like, they've lost their treasury teams or their treasury teams have headed off to across into Europe and everything else, whereas we're still here. You're covering the uk, I'm covering the world, if you like, and a lot more us. Katie's here for Europe. It means that you've got three incredible consultants. I don't big us up on the podcast that much, but the fact is, if you want advice, call us. If you're looking to recruit, call us. But Craig, thank you very much. Any closing words for the UK bar? What I said and we're going to move on, then I'm going to talk to Katie a bit more.

Yeah, just. Just one final point, actually. This is based on a call I had very recently with someone really great in the market, was telling me they'd applied for a job they're really interested in and directly, which was absolutely fantastic. And I said, no, hopefully you'll hear back. But they hadn't heard back and it had been about two weeks. But I actually said to them, can I just ask you why it. That opportunity was. What was it about that was really right, so I can help you with other things we might have on the go come up in the future. And it gave. And this person gave me a really great. Why A really good reason. I said to them the same about it is that they don't know that and it's just a shame that there wasn't an opportunity to better tell them. Not just me, but someone's going to tell them on their behalf. And that's our unique position with our clients. And even if we're not currently working with these companies, to be able to give someone the narrative as to why, because otherwise they're taking your profile at face value and we can add that value. Right. We want to be a partner, we want to make sure it's the right thing. And if I think someone will apply for something and I've done this recently, I don't think it's the right fit for them. I'll be very honest. Really? I'll tell them. Yeah, if you're going into a rolling out your weight class, I'll tell you.

Great stuff. Thanks, Craig. We're going to move on to Katie. Thank you very much.

Cool. Thank you, Mike.

Thank you very much for listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Wanted to catch up with you at the end of today's podcast to invite you to Join us in 2024 at one of our Treasury Career Corner live events throughout the us, throughout Europe, throughout the uk. So we're going to be right the way across and we start the world tour for Treasury Career Corner Live in New York on Wednesday the 6th and Thursday 7th of March. You don't want to miss them. You're going to be there. If you're in New York, please look it up, register. You've listened to the podcast, you can actually get to meet some of the guests live. You get to meet me live. I've kind of everything. But anyway, no, I hope you'll come and join us talking treasury careers. Each event starts at 6:00 clock with registration 6:30 to 7:30. I meet with the guests, I talk to them on a live panel. It's live version of the podcast, after all. And then we do networking drinks. So the first one say in New York in Times Square, then we actually move on. We've only got 65 people per night that. So we're booking up and then we're hitting the road. We're doing Treasure Career Corner live in cities across the us, UK and Europe. We'll be at Kyriba Live in Las Vegas. We'll be at Texpo in Houston. We're also stopping off in Dallas and then we've got other of our own events in Chicago, London, Athens, Luxembourg, Frankfurt. What could be better? So if you keep an eye on the website, we'd love to see you there. Keep an eye out for dates and venues. We're coming to a city near you. If you want to connect with us, just reach out to me. Can't wait to see you in 2024. Treasury Career Corner Live, the world tour. See you soon.