Top Tips for Business Success with John Engeman

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To another treasury career corner. I'm really enjoying this. Hope you guys are. This is actually a recap, a catch up, a further conversation if you like, with John Engerman in today's episode. John, when we last spoke, he's with the treasurer, National General Insurance. He's then moved on to invest cloud and when he and I last spoke crumbs it was three years ago in July 2019. We're now talking in middle of 2020. We brings us up to date. He's fascinating guy. Recently had him on New York Cash Exchange and we were talking there. John's got some great lessons to share with you guys out there. Some experiences of treasurer, really great guy. So I hope you enjoyed today's episode and as I say, well, let's get on with the show, the show show and then the catch up show. All right, enjoy. In this week's show, delighted we're joined by John Engerman, VP Treasurer at National General Insurance based in New York. John and I recently met up in New York and we had a good catch up and he very kindly agreed to be on the show. So I will get him to explain a little bit more about his background. But just to give you a quick idea, some of the headlines as it were, National General Insurance, headquartered in New York, they're a specialty insurance holding company. They do a lot of automobile insurance in the US and they've got a number of other product lines. But again, John can explain that because he's come into insurance through different routes. So telecoms, advertising and everything else, we get through that. So I've known John for many years and he's a senior finance and treasury professional who's got experiences, we say, of working across a number of different global corporates. He's also got public speaking and he's an award winning public speaker. He's a leader in Toastmaster, which he can explain about as well CTP and Treasury, but also he's even authored a book which I'd love to get into. As we get a bit further on in the interview, which is about the 12 Lessons for Success in business and beyond, we will give you the Amazon link so you can actually boost those numbers. Read some of the extracts myself, so it looks really good. As always said, enough talked, enough witted, enough. John, talk us through your career today, if you will, and how you first ever discovered the wonderful world of treasury and finance maybe.

Hi Mike. Well, thank you very much and welcome everybody to this week's podcast. Mike, thank you so much for having me today. It's A pleasure. And I look forward to talking about my career and what I'm seeing in treasury and the industry and background and a little bit about my book and what I've done in that end. So happy summer, everybody. It's June 25th and we're having our call today. I began from university. I went right into what is now Verizon. At that time it was called 9X. It was the breakup of the Bell system a number of years ago. It was historic because there was, they called it MA Bell in the United States, which was AT and T. And it was the largest telecommunications company certainly in the U.S. potentially global. There was a ruling that the company need to be broken up for competitive reasons. And they broke it up into seven different regional Bell systems. So I went to one of the companies, 9x at that time, which now is known as Verizon. It's undergone much growth, et cetera. But we were implementing everything or we were disassembling everything. So there was pension savings plans, et cetera, for millions of employees. Well, now that had to be segregated. So I jumped right in and worked on the savings plans, the investments, the 401k plans and at that time the pension plan, putting that all into place. So many people today are very involved in 401ks and IRAs and even Roth plans. Well, I'm very familiar with that because that's really where I began my career. And it happened to be in the Treasury Department of that company, 9X. So I was there for a few years, Mike, as an assistant manager. And then very quickly I was promoted as a manager and was managing subsidiary cash throughout the company. Within a year or two, I became the cash manager of the parent company. So you had dividends, you had share repurchase, you had foreign exchange, you had all the payroll. And so I was really managing all of the subsidiaries. We had many subsidiaries and I was overseeing the other cash managers. What we did, of course, as we pooled our funds, we either paid down our debt, we had a very large multi billion dollar commercial paper program as well as we had short term temporary investments when we had excess cash at times. So I then moved into managing the debt, dealing with the commercial paper and the brokers, and then doing investments as well. So really in a very short time in my career, I was fortunate to move from the savings plans, the pension group, long term investments into very heavy involved cash management for a global multinational company and then moving into the debt and investments. And before leaving Verizon, promoted then to staff director, really overseeing all of Those roles, except the savings plans that I had just talked about, having been in that managed, that dealt with the brokers, et cetera, on the commercial paper and the banks on the investment, the cash management. I was now managing the team that I had been working with over those years, reporting to the treasurer and also getting very involved in credit agreements and in revolvers and financing for the company. One of the parts I really enjoyed, Mike, was that we had over 30 banks in our credit facility back in those days and they came in at different tiers. So I dealt with the British banks, the European banks, Canadian banks, Australian banks, the Japanese banks, and of course the American banks. So kind of, as a young treasury person, got to really meet with people, learn their cultures, what they were looking for. Was there a personal relationship to the treasury guy at the company or was it more red and black numbers, the commitment, et cetera. So that's really where I began the career and spent 13 years and had got great background through the Verizon treasury.

Organization and that size of company. So you came From a Fortune 50, running a team at relatively early stage in your career. Just for a moment, just touch on that. What was it like sort of suddenly, right? You know, you were one of the team. And we've talked about this in a couple of other shows, moving from contributor, if you like, to more managerial. How did you manage that shift? Natural manager or, you know, what were you focusing on and then before you made the next step up, because then you make quite a big step. So maybe explain that if you would.

So it's a little bit like being a teammate on a club, on a football team or baseball team, etc. And then you become, I'll call it the player coach or the player manager, because I clearly wasn't just the manager, I was also the player because I was still performing roles, right? So I was doing my role, my role also in supporting the treasurer and the cfo, but also managing those people, their questions, keeping them motivated. It was something that I was concerned about by being, frankly, less years of experience, maybe a little bit younger in age. We had developed a very good working relationship. There's a lot of trust, Mutual trust and respect actually cover that about character within the book. And you'd say, why is character in a book about business, et cetera? Because trust and respect, communication, these are key. And this came out right away. So I was respected and trust trusted from the seniors, the CFO and the treasurer, but also those managers that I had actually learned from that mentored me initially and now I worked with them and then I was managing those people. So I had to keep them motivated and engaged. But treasury was always involving Mike, as you know. So even then there were treasury management systems coming in place, banks were doing new things, there was new automation, there were new controls and processes. Company was growing, there were acquisitions. So we had plenty to do. And from my background I went to Notre Dame and Notre Dame says play like a chamber champion today. So you want to work hard, but you like to enjoy yourself. And we work hard all day long. So let's make sure we. We enjoy ourselves like we do on this call and when we met. Right. We have some nice times, but. But we're communicating and moving forward with business and what we're here to do.

And then you gained the next step straight to treasury director with Virtus, but different kind of company. So you have 1450 rather telecoms, everything else marketing and advertising group. Explain that for the listeners and how that was a change of maybe industry or was treasury exactly the same walked in. It's just the same numbers, just different.

Format, different product, somewhat in between that it was definitely a change. This was a very, very leveraged company. When I went in, it was a public company. We were acquiring other businesses. So when the company saw advantages to do in these acquisitions, we were very leveraged. So it was different in really working with the finances of such a leveraged ENT and you know, and having the banking facility and the bank, etc. And doing a lot of M and A was a smaller company and they were always set on doing these acquisitions, but we didn't have a lot of infrastructure, so at a very small team, but had to get very involved in controls, processes, setting things up, getting things automated, making sure the auditors were good with the controls, the processes, and really learning a different industry and learning how to successfully integrate acquisitions that we did so many of at that company. And then the company went through private equity, was no longer a public entity, so got some experience doing that, doing more risk management for the company and quite a different industry from the advertising, getting into advertising versus telecommunications and, you know, and mobile.

What about that transition? Because I heard that from public to private. I've spoken to a couple of treasurers actually who have just been through that one's been very successful. Really enjoyed that transition. A new learning, as he said. Look working for same header on his business card, but totally different company because there is much greater focus on cash and the levers around that and everything else before is a little bit more relaxed with that, you know, even though they're a plc, but it was this time. Is that right? Where is it? Really grew that down in a positive fashion. You know, let's really get the most out of every asset we've got. But the other chap found it very difficult, you know, because the pressure that came with that and everything else. And founder, I think, found his role changed. How did you transition from PLC public through to private equity? How was that for you?

Well, it was a bit of a challenge and they were very focused on the pieces of the pie and how the very businesses were doing. Of course, you know, being public, yes, you do want to present as a whole, but they were considering breaking up the various pieces of it as they were specifically portfolio holdings, even within, you know, the Virtus Group. So they were definitely looking at spinning off the different pieces. So we had to make sure we had, you know, good answers. And we were managing each of those businesses very well. They do have different things that they're looking at for. So again, you're not publishing the financials and the 10Q and the 10Ks and things of that nature as we do with the sec, but they ask a lot of detailed questions, want to know the plans to growth, not hesitant to change management within the group. So you really have to be on your toes. And part of the reason I was leaving there is because they. There was no need anymore for the parent company which was really doing the acquisitions, the due diligence. The M and A I was offered to be, I believe it was the assistant treasurer for one of the subsidiaries that frankly I already had been managing as my role as director of Treasury. Right. Because I was at the headquarters. So we control policy and everything needs to go through the parent entity. Well, now they were breaking that off. It was no longer needed and the position opportunity was down at one of those subs. So I didn't see that as a move forward. It would have been fine. So the company eventually was splitting up and selling the various pieces. As I mentioned, we could kind of see that coming from the private equity. And so therefore it required a move and physically as well as a lateral. So at that point I decided to move forward in my career.

You joined AGFA and Imaging Group. Some. Some of the guys may know the name, but obviously real industry in transition, certainly at that time, and, you know, they haven't stopped. What was that like, the move into there because you were joined as assistant treasurer, became treasurer, so really leading things as well. How was that as an industry as well? How did that affect your role as treasurer?

Well, it was very interesting. First of all, AGPA Gaybart is out of Mortal Belgium and that was the public entity where the stock and the debt is held from the parent company. So I came in for AGFA Corporation was the United States company. And eventually we. I was the assistant treasurer treasurer of the NAFTA region which was Canada, United States and the Mexico company. So the treasurer is the agriculture. So I reported them to the CFO in the US as well as to the group treasurer in headquarters in Belgium. So there were certain things, well, from a role perspective dealing with pension savings plans that were kind of US focused. So I had complete autonomy on that reporting into the board of the, the CFO and the board of the U.S. company. But many things like forecasting, foreign exchange exposures, et cetera, they were centralized from Belgium. So I was reporting, let's say the exposures, the cash position, what we were doing from letters of credit into the headquarters in Belgium and working with the group treasurer there, strategy, policy and rolling it out. So I really had a dual role depending on if it was specific pension in the US Savings plan or if it was more part of the overall financial structure and policy, debt debt management of the parent company. At that time, you know, the company there was graphics. I mean AGFA actually had a photo company much like Fuji or Kodak and we know what happened to Kodak and some things to Fuji. So that was one of the businesses at the time as well as they kind of had the newspaper advertising and the printing and then also the healthcare, the healthcare imaging. And in those years, in the early part of the 2000s is when we made the shift to digital. So there were no longer. People were no longer printing photos and things. They actually did that and they actually had kiosks and places to print those photos. And we had big customers such as Walmart where you would go in and have your film developed. Everything was going more to the digital cameras and then eventually on the phones people would just share that and save that now as we know into the cloud and there's very few printing. So the business really migrated into imaging and the big growth vehicle within AKFA became the healthcare. They competed with GE Healthcare and all of the MRIs, body scans imaging that hospitals and doctors use so much now that we rely on. That's where AGFA moved into the imaging aspect. So that's really the change, so the actual industry change. We closed the photo business because of what I said. It just was kind of natural evolved also we went to A more digital, from an analog version to the printing of the newspaper and the advertising. And we know obviously what's happened to that industry. Everything is online. So I was there at a very interesting time where it was clearly evolving and the company had to be with the times to make sure that everything was going to digital in healthcare and then online versus print because those were the years where the numbers were significantly changing. And it was very interesting. Within the treasury role, first time I was really managing a large size pension. I had complete integration or I guess discussions with the really the head of the investment committee in working with the board for approval of the funds and the investments within the savings plans and things of that nature. And the administrative manager of that, having spent a little bit of time in Belgium and seeing how they worked, how they managed, how they work with their banks, that was very helpful. And then also IAS versus the fasb. So getting a little bit more of an international flavor. When I was at 9x override, we had some international subsidiaries in the UK and Thailand, et cetera again a number of years ago. So really from a headquarters getting used to dealing that way now the roles were flipped. Although I was the treasurer of of AGFA Corporation in the US and in nafta, I was now working with an international headquarters that I was reporting to. So it was actually great, Mike, when you think about it because from an international perspective I've been there when we've been acquiring, integrating, making sure they see that how we manage things and oversee and control and processes from headquarters. Well, now I was working with someone else's vision. Very good treasury group from Belgium and how they worked in reaching out to the subsidiaries. We were a very large subsidiary and I used that to my advantage. I learned from that as I went to future roles and I had international subsidiaries because I know what it was like in dealing with European, UK and Asian companies as a subsidiary. Now to being as the manager at the parent company from the U.S. as.

You said with Agfa, the firm had exited the retail side of the business, but you made a move and joined what was now Kate Spade but was formerly as Claiborne and things like that. Did that retail experience help you as a Treasury, do you think or not? Really, it was just, you know, you're a Treasury, you can, you can take your skills in your toolkit wherever you need to. You know, what was the situation when you made that move?

Yeah, you know, that retail aspect of it, because it was really, it wasn't our AG for stores, it was going to the Walgreens or the Walmart, you know, some of the big bucks, the Costcos and companies like that, that would have those developing centers that would now have pharmacies, things of that nature and the vision locations and things like that. Liz Claiborne was a portfolio of companies. Liz Claiborne was the famous designer for fashionable women's wear, you know, in the 90s and the early 2000s for women, you know, dressing fashionably for business purposes. But we had a portfolio of, I believe it was, I think, of a deck of cards. No, no jokers here, Mike. There were about 50 brands, some very small, within that portfolio. So people know Liz Claiborne, but there were many, many brands, some of them international, most in the U.S. all kinds of, you know, different age groups and different styles, etc. So we were really, it was a little bit like going back to Virtus where we had some of those businesses we were acquiring. Liz Claiborne had 50. So what we tried to do was have the center of excellence at the parent company. So Liz Claiborne, yes, it was a brand. And when I got there, it was probably 20, 25% of sales. It started to decline. But we tried to work the growing companies, the retail companies, and we share. And we had different plans depending on the type of retail company. I'm not going to say we had 50 different business models and plans because we had 50 brands, but depending if they were more wholesale based or retail based or, you know, for the younger demographics versus more, you know, middle demographics or what was. Was it aspirational? Was it market, you know, what was the price point? And so we developed that at the parent company, at the holding company. And then people would manage big groups of companies, right? So you didn't necessarily haven't financed senior leaders on 50 companies. You couldn't financially exist that way. So we developed that those tools and those spheres of excellence by looking at the market for those kinds of companies. And I was there, you know, doing the acquisitions. So in the early years, we were doing acquisitions, growing, as I said in 2005 with all of those brands. And retail was very strong back then. The economy was very good. And then this awful hiccup happened, more than a hiccup, I could use a different term a few years later. And it was devastating to retail. And if we look back, there's a lot of retail companies that have fell on very difficult times or no longer exist anymore. Everything is online. So this was at the very early forefront of online. But really what happened was the recession and that Was frightening and probably for everybody listening on this call that had to deal with that as treasury or finance or cfo.

Well, how did you deal with it? Some of the luxury brands as we saw, I'm currently recruiting for Chanel and they're a luxury brand but they plan for the worst, hope for the best and do more than hope for the best and do very well. But you had a more diverse range in sound some ways, you know. So how did you guys cope with that sort of spectrum of businesses and getting through that as it were?

Yeah, well, we looked out. We really tried to understand the market and where it was going and what was happening. We, we needed to be more in control of the business. So the wholesale businesses, you're really dependent on the stores that are better. The Macy's, the Nordstrom's of the world that are putting your products there and they're controlling some price point. So the company wanted to focus on certain brands. Juicy Couture, Lucky Brand jeans and then when we bought Kate Spade while I was there and that you could have these retail stores and it could be designed as you wished and the pricing would be subject to your customers and you start to have the E Commerce. So we started to downsize, let's say where we were more dependent and had less control as the wholesale brands. We also started to kind of change our financial. You know, we paid down debt. As we saw the recession coming, it came faster than any of us could have imagined. But we were actually shifting the business even before the recession came and thank goodness they were doing that. So we saved ourselves by closing some businesses and selling some businesses that never would have survived through to the end of the recession. So we juiced our risk. So managing risk was key. And then one of the main things in going through that was we were a retailer and it was women's apparel. I mean there's one thing when you're a retailer and you're selling consumer staples, but this is retail apparel. Nice to have, nice to have the juicy tracksuit in the 2005, 2006. But when everyone was losing their jobs, etc. You're probably not going to go out and buy, you know, a fancy tracksuit or comfy that something that might be stylish. So we actually our credit facility was coming due and I had renewed credit facilities the first couple of years there when we were strong credit, the market was good, life was good, the banks wanted us to renew. No problem. Was just a question of timing, execution and you know, what was the best pricing, etcetera well, we needed to renew because it was coming due right as the recession was hitting. As a matter of fact, I was at a bank meeting preparing for the renewal. I left the bank, walked back to my office. I walked past Lehman Brothers. That was the day hundreds of people were exiting their building carrying their boxes, and Lehman Brothers shut down. And I'm saying, now we're going to market to have to increase our credit facility. And where retail apparel, we're also entering the fourth quarter, and basically the marketplace, the bankers, the investors, they want to see how you come through the fourth quarter in retail and in apparel. Right. Talk to us in February when your results are announced, depending how you did. And as you know, many retailers, that's when they declare the bankruptcy after that year end because it didn't work or it did. And. And so for us to say, we need financing, we need you to up your commitment on a retail apparel company right in the teeth of the recession. And we got to do this because if we didn't get this funding, we would then have tripped a covenant on one of our euro notes, and then we would have been in default and that would have been the end. And, you know, as we have this on our mind, I was the assistant treasurer at the time at Liz Claiborne, you know, working hand in hand with the treasurer and also with the cfo. And that was sweat equity. It was a very difficult time. And we worked it through the whole quarter. They wanted to wait for our results, we couldn't wait for our results. And I call it the best Christmas present I ever got. But about January 5th, we got our commitments, we got the deal done. So that morning, we were up day and night because we had European banks, we had other covenants that were impacted. We had to get. The final step, literally was the Spanish notary to get something in place. And they were closed for an hour or two for their lunch hour, et cetera, their siesta in the middle of January. And we were all up in the US in the middle of the night, making sure everything was dotted and crossed, because if this didn't happen, we wouldn't happen. And so I remember being up all night and saying, you know, I'd like to bring in some strong coffee and donuts to thank the group and everything. And my boss was John, you can bring in whatever you want. You know, for us, it's the happiest day of our career. And that's really when people ask me, what's your proudest moment in treasury of finance? That that is because we partnered with the banks and we said trust us and what we're. My CFO used to, to use the words, Mike, that all we're trying to do is pave more path ahead of us on that Runway because we have a super large jet, we're trying to take down that Runway and get up in the air or those, or those big planes on the carriers that, you know, running short on the Runway. We had to pay more Runway. So that was the financial strategies we did to de lever to give us more Runway so we could get through that quarter. We can get that financing and, and then the rest of my career there, we actually sold many of our businesses. The market realized that Kate Spade, that entity was the strongest performer. So we sold the Liz Claiborne brand, therefore they changed the names 1st to 5th and Pacific and then they changed it to Kate Spade. And I stayed through until we sold really all of those brands private equity. We closed a few and they became Kate Spade. And then I left because the company didn't really need that management oversight. Just like Virtus, we didn't need that because now it was just the brand of Kate Spade. Since then they were acquired by Coach and became Tapestry and are doing fine. So they're, they're there today or at least the Kate Spade part of Tapestry really due to the finance team and many other hard working people in other departments. But the finance team came through in that 2008, 2009 critical period. So that was pretty incredible experience.

And then you talk through the other moves with David Yerman and Theorem for a period and stuff. So because you'd got that experience, what, what was next for you? Did you feel.

So I was staying in retail, but clearly into jewelry. So I went to David Bjrman, which is beautiful jewelry. Everyone loves it. It growth, but very retail oriented, mainly in the United States. We opened some stores in France and some stores in Canada, of course, but it was mainly us. The E commerce business grew, but we were growing business, but it was private. And David and his wife still came to work every day as the designers, but we had a CEO in place because they were designers and it was their business. But they weren't the CEO type, the CFO type. So we brought in professionals, including myself. I was running the Treasury. I use the term head of treasury as Director of treasury because there was no defined treasurer. But I was running all of that. It was such a small group that I was the only treasury person. That was a bit of a challenge and I probably don't recommend that because it's very difficult to be out of the office or on holiday, always checking in. But obviously I trained somebody that was close to the Treasury Department to do what we needed to do when I was away, but grew the business. I also ran really throughout this career. I actually also did the risk management, managing the insurance, the cyber liabilities, the directors and officers. Very frequently treasury people are involved in that part. Yes, you might be in the risk management from the hedging and the debt management, floating to fixed and things of that nature. But very often treasury folks and I recommend it if you do get the opportunity. So I was managing the corporate insurance, not insurance like I'm doing now that we're an insurance company, but managing the various policies, the casualty, the workers compensation, the property club policies and things like that and working with the broker. So it's just another financial analysis. But the key to this Mike, is to be able to really to communicate. I mean this is what it all comes back to, right? Understanding numbers, understanding patterns, trying to have a vision for the future on where numbers are going and your forecast, where your business is going, even if it's strategically and not just the numbers. And then from the insurance, you're looking at the risk and the exposures and to make sure you have adequate coverage such as cyber liability. And all of US treasury people are very aware of all the cyber and all of the fraud going on to make sure you have the appropriate coverage and new coverages such as cyber liability and things of that nature. So anyway, at Yerman, as we were building out stores, I was doing that and getting all the money and we had a lot of, let's say special shows where we would be showcasing our jewelry, as you can imagine, but at some places in Saudi Arabia, et cetera, at a palace. So I had to arrange the insurance because we are bringing very valuable jewelry there with only select people. So that was kind of a unique twist to my experience and of course securing all the monies that would go there and any sales, etc. So you know, international expansion. So really enjoyed that. It's a good company, growing company. But I had another very good opportunity after a few years I moved from there.

That role theorem perhaps explain to people what that is. I don't know the group myself, but maybe just explain just briefly for the, for the listeners.

Theorem was a digital marketing company that does that either created the content or did a lot of the advertising that you would see on many, many websites where it would be personalized for you, whether you be on Spotify or you'd be on a financial site, or you'd be on a shopping site, that targeted content would be done by or on Facebook, etc. That targeted content would be either created by Theorem or Theorem would run the platform for the technology in conjunction for the entity that was like Spotify, Pandora that was requested that advertising. So I went in to the company looking for, outside my role in Treasury. It was a much smaller company. We were looking at new businesses, potentially spinning off some new businesses there. And I was kind of senior Director of Finance, really looking at treasury and working with the CFO really to kind of take on that role. If we were going to spin it off so much more involved in sales, looking at pipelines. So really broadening my experiences at Dirham, but it was a completely different industry, smaller company, and so I had a broader role. So it was a good learning experience.

And then you joined National General Insurance most recently. So you'd have these experiences within retail and everything else. And you said you did the insurance, but, you know, from the other side. So looking after the corporate insurance and the risks and things like that, then how did this come about? This, this is actually an insurance provider for both property, automobiles and things like that, which people might know. Actually, you know, people in the US will understand. But, you know, tell us about that move, you know, what tempted you for that role.

Well, it was an opportunity because I actually, via networking, I was introduced to the firm by a Treasury system provider who knew me very well, knew my experience. I had worked with that firm and obviously with AFP and in the industry. The key is to be known and to be networked and to join organizations, whether it's AFP or other international treasury and finance organizations, and to meet people and stay involved. And that's all throughout the book. But because of that, I was introduced to this firm and the incumbent, who was the assistant treasurer at the time, was leaving and I was introduced and to replace that person. So I interviewed, became the new assistant treasurer. And initially I reported to the treasurer, but he was the chief operating officer who's spent, you know, most of his time. He had a very large group that reported to him. Right. He's the right hand to the CEO as well as the cfo, and he also held the treasurer title and the budgets and things of that nature. So I. So I reported into him and was fully running the treasury organization, but he still held the title. And within the year, they really liked my progress, what I was doing for the company. And then, you know, the board, of course, and you know, I was promoted to the treasurer, certainly the holding company, but every entity we have, so we have many insurance companies. So there were a lot of fingerprints needed to be done, a lot of bios and questionnaires and things like that because of the regulatory nature of the insurance companies. So National General Holdings Corp. Is a public company, about 5 billion in sales, 2 1/2 to 3 billion in market cap, been around since 2013. General Motors Insurance Corporation, you know, has been around or parts of it since the late 1930s with vehicles. And National General really is the successor from that company. When that company no longer existed, somebody created this company, some of the subsidiaries for the company that does the automobile insurance in many of the states in the United States, due to regulatory reasons. And we've grown and bought some other businesses, some niche healthcare businesses as well as other businesses that would fit the portfolio for insurance that would not be regulated. So our organization chart is, we try and simplify it, but it's probably 50 or 60 entities, probably 20 or more regulated insurance companies dealing with state regulators. And then, you know, the other half would be non regulated insurance companies. The difference is really the credit quality. The nice thing is I've been used to, you know, managing cash, almost counting the pennies and the dollars at times, certainly during the recession and things of that nature. I've done asset based lending, financing, financing which fit many of the companies I've worked for. That's not the case here. We have a multi billion dollar investment portfolio based on the nature of the business and regulatory. So we have a professionally managed multi billion dollar investment portfolio. I'm really the conduit, the liaison to the investment manager that does it right, because I'm running the entire cash. So as we have excess cash, of course it's being invested, whether short term or long term, long term. And that's my role as the treasurer. So that's the difference I think is really the ample investments that's being done to generate a return as opposed to helping us pay down our debt or pay down the commercial paper, et cetera, strong cash flow, but a lot of regulatory. So the industry certainly is quite different. Some of the elements of treasury as we've just talked about with the various industries are forecast, minimize risk, be a strategic partner to, to the business, talk to the other businesses, learn what they're doing, how we can help them, how they can help us. So it's that getting out there, meeting them, understanding what they do, telling them what you do, what you're looking for, what we bring to the corporation and how we can perform better. So to kind of have that mutual conversation so you understand each other's needs and kind of iron out any obstacles and that helps you see into the future. And I think it's quite important to know what's around you now, but also to see into the future for where the business is going and the individual businesses.

And looking back at your we said at the beginning of the show and we talked about this when we met up recently, you've written a book, 12 Lessons for Success in Business and Beyond. And as I say, we'll put the link to the book in the show notes. But tell us how that came about. Was it just you weren't busy enough in Treasury? I know that's not the case, but you know, maybe, maybe for the listeners, you know, how did that come about?

Right. As you mentioned before, I've been in Toastmasters for a number of years and people may look up what Toastmasters is international organization for communication and leadership, but we practice public speaking in an informal or a semi formal way. And I have been doing this for years and years. So I've been doing this in the small to medium sized settings, but I've also done it at afp, I've done it at regional, I've been at Euro Finance and presented internationally, et cetera. And I wanted to put something in writing. I wanted this so that people could really would reach a broader audience, it would be more permanent than just the talk and that people could really absorb and reflect these lessons and then put them into practice and personalize them. So that's really the reason and what I wanted to do, Mike, is to encourage and inspire the readers to embrace new challenges and continuous learning in their career. And what I've done with These lessons, these 12 lessons, they include real life examples of me in my career and they provide direction and motivation and a little bit of a how to or really a recommendation to reflect on these. And although it's not that lengthy, it's an easy read with the 12 lessons people. Some people have told me that they'll read one lesson in the evening or in the morning, kind of let it sit through their mind for the day or overnight and then the next day think about how they may want to go about and work on that recommendation or that goal and what they can do to that, what kind of plans they put in place. So I would say it's food for thought on success and growth and really inspiration on how you can move forward. Some of them are very natural topics. Communication Leadership, motivation, networking. But some of them are more, you know, being curious, getting out of your comfort zone, you know, challenging yourself, getting involved either as a leader or as a team player. And then I go on with the examples of that. So it's been an absolute joy. It's gotten a lot of good attention. I had a book signing last week, my fourth book signing. We had about 35, 40 people. I gave very inspiring, spirited talk as I like to do to motivate and encourage and a little bit of humor in there and it was just a great time and I'm getting some good feedback. So I hope to do that. Great if I could do it internationally and join you somewhere. But right now, right now I'm enjoying doing it locally and in some other locales. Be speaking really on this topic at AFP in October in Boston. We're talking about some of these topics on a session on how to advance your career and professional success. So I look forward to that as well.

That'd be great. And I look forward to seeing you there. Now I haven't told this to John. I actually did print off some of the reviews from Amazon. The one that really grabbed me was someone that started to read the book. They started Dog Ear a page or two then found themselves getting our highlighter and they were marking, hand marking pages and they found you very informative, easy to relate and actually what they the as it says here, the author encourages us to take action towards achieving success. And that's you know, very action orientated book. So actually improving yourself which I'd say weighed nicely and actually wasn't pre planned. But you know, looking back over your career, you know, as we do on every show and as we wrap up today's show a little bit, you know, what would you attribute your success to? We'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show. Notes, notes. But as we look in and also the other thing I was going to say this today is only a snapshot of some of John's background. I think there's more stuff we can get into but we try and keep the show each week to sort of about 40 minutes. So we don't want to take too much of people's time in their ears. But if people look back over yours, what the top tips you're going to give to the audience to say this is if you want to get to my position or, or if you want to develop a successful career, what are the tips you're going to do? I know you've got 12 lessons but maybe you know Condense those down a little bit.

Yep. Yeah. Some of those lessons is really to continue learning throughout your career. And that doesn't mean that it has to be formalized degrees and certifications, but networking with people, learning, having discussions, listening into podcasts, going to presentations, you know, talking to your group, et cetera, to always be learning. And whether that's, you know, in treasury finance or that's just obtaining knowledge, there's so much that is available. But the challenge a little bit is to filter out because you could, you could spend your time in 24 hours reading and learning, and then that's over saturation. So the right amount. Communicate. Communicate well. Now, that is speaking. You don't have to be a presenter, but to be able to communicate over the phone, in person, in meetings, as well as to write. And it's very critical for the younger generations now, where everything is really text and instant messaging, etc. That you want to still be able to craft well in a business setting, that you still need to know appropriately how to write. There's a place for short words, etc. But there's also a place for proper written word. And network. Get out there and meet people. It's not about having a thousand or five thousand on LinkedIn. That's fine if you do, but it's making sure that you have that trusted, you know, circle of five or 10, and maybe, you know, 50 or 100 or 150 people that you could call, could contact, network and actually speak and meet with, right? So we live thousands of miles apart, but we still keep in touch. When you're coming by, you're kind enough, you know, gracious enough to come, and we spent the time and met. And so you need to do that with people. And as a leader, when you get to be a leader, you need to be able to listen and give feedback. That's key. You need to actively listen, right? Not just to hear them, but before you return your speak, you need to actively listen and not only give feedback, but you should request feedback, right? Request feedback from people that work from you, your peers, your manager, something else. And this isn't in the book, but plan for disruptions, have backup plans, have alternatives. What might be a better way to do something? Learn about a new technology, even if it's not right for you, but to be aware for it, because it could become right for you at the company, or you might find yourself in another company in the future, or recommending that. Know your team, right? Know the people, know what motivates them. Make sure you're present and know your own strengths and weaknesses, build on your strengths and manage your weaknesses. Believe it or not, Mike, one of the reasons I joined Toastmasters was, you know, I used to do do in schooling. We had to do prepared talks, and that was fine. I was average with everyone else, but I fell out of practice early in my career, and so I didn't have the repetition. And I actually lost my confidence. And I was challenged by this, and I was just, you know, getting the butterflies, and I said, this isn't worth it. So I knew this was a weakness and I took it on. And now I'm able to, you know, to present to groups and tell my stories. And had I not done that, let's say I wrote the book, I wouldn't be able to go out and speak about the book because I wouldn't have that conf. Recognize that weakness. And now I'm also building on the strengths. And I would just say, overall, you know, use your gut, use your instinct. If it. If it seems wrong, look into it. Have someone else review it, dig a little bit deeper, do some diligence. Don't just let it happen. Right. We need to be prudent and good risk managers in our career. So I know those are a lot of things. They're not the 12 lessons that I could have done it like David Letterman and 10, nine down to one. But. But those really are the key things, I think, in the career. And really, other than the learning, none were specific to Treasury. I think, you know, that goes without saying. Make sure you know your craft, but continue the learning and be an overall good manager. And all the skill sets. And those things, I think, are what I look for in people as well. Right. You talk about recruiting. Not necessarily. Do they always have a backup plan? I may not learn that, but you really, you're assuming they have the good skill sets by, you know, people doing the initial reviews and making sure, you know, they have the education, the right experience, and then you want to learn about the person, what makes them go and how do they relate and all those things. But I think that's a whole separate podcast. Right.

And it's interesting. I mean, I've just been writing some of the notes there, just saying about. And we'll put these in the show notes as well. Continuous learning with networking, podcasting, actively listening, planning for disruption, you know, prudent attitude to risk, which I think are great. It's an interesting one that, actually the one I was going to pick out that really resonates very much with me. Is you said about that weakness when speaking sort of thing, and, you know, choosing to get over that, you recognize it and everything else. When I recently spoke at Windy City Summit before I then came and met you in New York, I said to the audience, I said, you know, I don't like doing this. And they all went, what? No, you've done it. This is your seventh. I said, I didn't get out of the bed this morning. Do you know what? I'd love to go and stand in front of a group of strangers, some friends, obviously, but, you know, mostly a group of completely random people I'd never met before in my life, and then deliver a brand new speech, which was. Which was tough in itself, but I said, but I recognize that it'd be better with my clients to be better at what I do and my, you know, and everything else. And you then also talk about actively listening. That's what I've got from the podcast. And I think it's looking at what are our weaknesses in ourselves to be better at our role. You know, I've become a far better listener since doing the podcast, since listening to you today, interpreting listening. And then also the other thing I would do is be better at shutting up. You know, that's mine. You know, so if someone's got a point, you know, actively listening doesn't mean you speaking. It means you're actually listening and getting much more. And I. I got that very much from John. And again, that's one of the reasons why I'd like to perhaps bring John at a later stage back on the show, you know, maybe to talk around some of those personal development things. I think there's. There's more that we can go into. Today's a snapshot of your career, so we don't want to sort of overdo that and then get into other areas. I think there's an opportunity for more if that's the right way. But do you think the same. Are you up for that as well?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I could. I could do a whole podcast on those kinds of topics, et cetera, but I know we had a different purpose today, but one of the themes of this, the book, Mike, is get out of your comfort zone and test your comfort zone. And I actually put something on LinkedIn yesterday. It was a great picture of Nick Wallenda and his sister who did the high wire walk over Times Square live. Of course, they were tethered, but. So that's the extreme, and I don't recommend that for any of us. But there are ways to test yourself. And once you start doing things to challenge yourself, you really grow and learn from that and you get more confidence. And it is intimidating. I mean, it's not always easy. But do it in small steps, do it with a partner, do it together, et cetera. You don't have to go in solo. And probably each of us is better at it than we think. The audience, when you speak, the audience is hoping that you do well, or at least 99% of them, and they're looking forward to it. So what I do is if I get any kind of anxiety, you try to turn that around into positive energy. Energy and adrenaline. And then. And then you go forward. And once you get started on a roll, generally, you know, we'll be okay. Sometimes. Great. Not always, but. But that's for another podcast.

Yeah, that'd be brilliant. So all that leaves me to say is, Mr. Engelman, thank you very much for your time today. Very gracious. Really loved it. As I say to you listeners, we will, to get John back on the podcast, maybe doing a. We're gonna do some special edition shows. So maybe that will be a good, good one to do. And look at that. What it needs me to do is a bit more planning, which. Yeah. A few more hours of the day, which would be great. All night. John, it's been amazing today. Thanks for your time and look forward to seeing you in New York next time we're coming over.

Thank you very much, Mike. Thanks, everyone.

Many thanks. Well, I hope you guys enjoy. Enjoyed that. That was an amazing podcast with John and we're just approaching three years to the day, I think it is when John was last on the show. And I wanted to bring the story up to date since that time, since he was last on the show. He's joined new company Invest Cloud. I'm going to get John to explain about who they are. Life's moved on a little bit. He was recently a guest with me at New York Cash Exchange. A very gracious guest in it. Fantastic. He even did the show live virtually. But with COVID This man knows no measure. He was amazing. So thank you, John. So we're going to go through. John, if you would, back to you, as always. Bring the story up to date. I know, like, we could do a new podcast, but bring us up to date from where we left off the last show. Over to you, sir.

Yes. Hi, Mike.

Hello, everyone.

Glad to speak to everyone again today. Summertime. As Mike said, it's about three years since we last spoke at the podcast. So I Would like to bring you up to date. So since that time in summer 2019, just a few months after that, I had the opportunity to speak at AFP and to do a solo presentation. And what I decided to do was to blend a career presentation on my treasury background, but also combined with some of the thoughts and principles from my book. So the title of the presentation, Mike, was Fulfilled your potential and beyond A path for career success. What we really talked about was really to continue the career, learning, communicating well and active and listening feedback. We also talked about ways that you could really engage yourself and continue to make things happen via networking, to get yourself known to be part of the treasury community, whether it be LinkedIn, AFP and really to be networking and speaking and engaging. And I'm very happy that I had the opportunity to do that that time in 2019, not knowing the pandemic was coming and we were really going to be isolated and at home for quite some time and not really circulating and being out in person. And as you mentioned with the New York Cash Exchange conference we just had, that's still virtual. So that's three years later, we are virtual. So I was very pleased to get out there in front of, I think it was about 100 participants. And I made the session interactive, active, really taking in their input, telling about how I would go to make things happen in your career, getting involved, trying new things, a lot of the lessons in the book, but it really plays into your career because as you become known and as you distinguish yourself you in your career, you know, getting out and speaking at the many conferences and events and now with the podcast, really facilitating that communication with other treasury leaders, you are doing exactly those kinds of things that we talked about on how to fulfill your potential and beyond and really to network and possibly to mentor others. So that was really just months later in Boston at the, at the annual national afp. So I did that just a couple months after the podcast. Career wise. What I did was I finished up with National General through the end of 2019, pretty much continuing on as the treasurer, managing the debt, the financing the investments, really focusing on the cash that we were then working with the professional managers, as I said, to invest either long term or short term, depending on our forecast. Concluded with National General Insurance after a few years there at the end of 2019. And in 2020 I had a really great opportunity where I still am today. The company now now is called Invest Cloud, but we've gone through a few iterations. So in 2020, my company was part of Fiserv which is a top 100 company in the world. Fiserv, it's a large public company and we were a, I'll call it a niche financial investment services subsidiary of fiserv. And they were really focused on other parts of the business, really on the payments business. And so they decided to spin us out or carve us out. And we were acquired by private equity. So fiserv still had an interest in our company, so they had a minority ownership, but we were taken by private equity. And so I was brought in as the head of treasury at that time and the idea was to carve us out so we could stand on our own feet in the private equity world. So I was in charge of really creating the treasury, transitioning it from being a subsidiary from a very large public company company into our own smaller niche private equity owned portfolio company, putting processes, controls in place, formulating strategy, banking relationships, having our own small credit facility with term loans for financing and just trying to work on best practices. So we would have different smaller, nimble ERP systems and banking relationships versus fiserv, which had probably hundreds of bank accounts, very large system really we were carving out and putting together new from ERP and from hris, from the people management, working with a new legal team or bank relationships. So it was putting everything together new. And I had some experience in that. So I really enjoyed that opportunity. Automating controls, processes, best practices, fraud prevention. So spent all of 2020 doing that.

And in the B2 and in the.

Beginning we changed our name from one iteration, wanted to remove really the Fiserv name because really we were only a minority ownership from then. So they called it Tegro 118 Wealth Solutions. And then in 2021, our private equity ownership contributed us as a portfolio company with another portfolio company into another company which was Invest Cloud. So it was a merger of three complementary companies in the SaaS financial technology world. And so one company is very international. So we're in about five countries in Europe and four or five in Asia. And that complements with the Invest Cloud and with the Tegra company. And so we're in about five other countries, so probably 12 to 15 countries. And they brought me in, named as the vice president and global treasurer of the combined company with the name Invest Cloud. Invest Cloud is headquartered out of the Los Angeles area, but we are global. I'm out of the New York, New Jersey metropolitan area where our carved out company from Fiserv originated. It's a global company, FinTech, it's a SaaS provider we deal with banks, asset management, wealth advisors and really we provide the system data and the systems to help them in all areas of wealth management, asset management management and the distribution of that information for their clients. And so I've had the opportunity really as a, as a rebirth now that where these multi companies still private but trying to put together best practices. So a little bit of what I was doing from the initial carve out from fiserv as a standalone company. Now I'm trying to incorporate those same kinds of controls, fraud prevention practices, establishing a treasury for a company that that's two to three times the size as it was when we carved out from fiserv in the Tegra name. And so we're in many, many more countries so we're working on things of foreign exchange and some hedging and more automation, more fraud control, looking at the bank accounts, bank account consolidation. So a much broader, larger integrated trying to get put together best practices for this larger company with many more businesses, bank accounts, et cetera. So it's a really exciting, exciting and good opportunity for me. I was pleased on what I was doing initially when I came into the company and now with the merger of the three companies plus another US acquisition last year. So now there's the four companies and really just trying to put things together holistically and then move forward with the best practices. So we have all the blocking and tackling pretty much completed that we set out to do and now it's more strategic and looking at you know, the winds of change that we're seeing on our, our horizon, what's going on with interest rates and in the markets.

Okay, let me just go back a little bit, just dive in there. One of my previous guests, good friend of mine, Julie Fabris from Britax, she has worked for a number of PE owned and backed companies, have gone with PE back into public and then back again and she's joined a series of those and tongue in cheek way back when and before the show and actually I did ask her on the show show when I said to her we pre prepped the question, I said pe. So it's just all about the money and once you've got the cash flows and they've got visibility on it. Thanks very much treasurer, you're off out the door, you know, or let's get a more junior person in and stuff. And we did that very tongue in cheek. You can listen back to show 107. It was about a year later from yours on my show originally but Julie answered it very and People can listen to that one. How would you answer that? That the pressures and of being PE owned and backed and everything else, how does that impact on you and your role as a treasurer and the way you approach Treasury? Is cash visibility the king? It's got to be this or how does it work? How are you seeing it now?

You know, cash is king. Cash visibility is key. Mike. We're looking at that from consolidated perspective, but also from the individual companies and how they're managing their cash. Cash it all builds up into a consolidated position, but I'm responsible for the management of that within the individual companies. And also our credit facility is US based. We can borrow obviously in some of the other major currencies, but you may look at the total portfolio cash, but we do have some repatriation concerns that you moving cash from offshore to onshore. So you really have to look at your liquidity within the constraints of a revolving credit facility. U.S. cash, for example, versus the international cash and having it at the right places at the right time and making sure you communicate right up through to the top levels when you would need to draw on the credit facility. So we are very focused on the cash as well as the debt and the net debt position and then some of our leverage ratios, et cetera, that we would report into the rating agencies and you know, and to the lender. So very focused on that. And I think some of the things that would help with the cash conversion cycle is, you know, managing your AR very effectively, automation on the AP and really putting your cash to work and having a very good forecast. We've really spent some focused time on the forecast so we can manage and predict those cash needs, whether it be international in one of our businesses in Singapore or in Italy or in the UK or Canada or in the US for the larger companies. And we focus a lot on that and just putting these companies together and learning their nuances and how they've been managed in the past when they weren't part of this consolidated entity had to kind of shed some of the former practices or maybe lack of focus in certain areas. Certainly when we were part of fiserv and you know, multibillion dollar company, the cash at our subsidiary wasn't nearly as critical as it is now standalone and merged with these other, other companies. So very focused on the cash. But it's also how you manage that cash focused on the expenses and certainly what we're seeing going forward in the markets in the business, the capital markets access, very focused on the cash and you know, on our Present debt level.

We're not going to take too much of your time today but we had some really great conversations on the group session we did with Tim and with Steve. Steve's a past guest the podcast and I recently recorded what one with Tim so they're coming out in future weeks. But it was amazing to have three great treasurers and they had so much to give. But then to keep you three guys talking to within an hour with you guys I kind of just sat there for like and I'm glad we didn't have a beer in front of us. We've been there three, four hours talking treasury and geeking out that we were talking about, you know, the current everything post pandemic and working from home. The world of work has changed and things. How have you seen that? From you as a treasurer. Okay, your company, that's California founded but you're based on the east coast and the West. But how are you seeing it more a smaller level? You know, how are you seeing it on a day to day level if you like how it actually affects you? Not smaller but what I mean is how does it micro level rather. Yeah, big company. But how are you finding it in Treasury? You know how I find it, the treasury team and things like that. What's it like?

Yeah, well our treasury team really was put together from the treasury or the accounting operations person at each of those other entities. So I have one treasury treasury person in Italy and one in Tampa, Florida from the invest cloud side myself. We had some input from one of our other entities in the Midwest. So there's no other treasury folks in my natural home office. So I've been working remotely. We have the opportunity to be hybrid now. But if I was in the office there's some finance people in one of our subsidiaries that would be in the, in the local office. But mainly I'm on the phone with the banks and the other treasury folks who are doing video calls and they're around the country or around the globe. So the hybrid or the remote works pretty well because there's lots of conversations, communication. We use the software using either, you know, the Zoom or the Microsoft Team. So we do the video when, when we need. There's the capability of sharing the screen. So we need to communicate whether it's via chat, whether it's video or whether it's, it's email. So we're doing constant communication, you know and sharing files and. But we're not in person that often and I think we've really gotten used to that and it's working well. It's good to have those meetings monthly or quarterly or I think staff meetings to talk. My treasury team, which is small, is first. So for me it's working quite well. And I try and stay engaged with learning, whether it be treasury podcasts or webinars and to hear the latest thing that's going on with exchange rates or interest or cash or new fraud controls, et cetera. So I try and still stay engaged those kinds of things and continue the learning. As I said in the book, that's still working. And as one of the things you and I have talked about, it's that active listening and the feedback. So as you're working with new treasury team members from these other entities and in the private equity world, you really need to be quiet sometimes and listen and then give effective feedback and coaching. I think I'm the more experienced treasurer person. Some of the other people have come from other accounting and finance backgrounds and moved into treasury at times. So you're able to coach and mentor and bring some maybe sophisticated processes and controls in place and also partner with your banks and tell them what you're looking for and what you need and work to the best. So we're doing that remotely and it's.

Working for us because the first show we had so much value and people heard that and loved it as well. We're going to wrap up today's the recap if you like. John what we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. I've listened to the previous show a couple of times. You have as well. Other advice you would give or the pieces you might pick out to sort of re reflect. What would you say?

I would say on your personal career, you know, you want to continually engage and learn from new experiences. You want to build on your strengths and manage your weaknesses. One of the things I did and you've talked about you and your career public speaking, my background in Toastmasters that's helped me professionally and personally. Building on that was a weakness. I've managed that weakness and I turned it into a strength. You want to challenge your comfort zone, Mike. You want to get out and do experiences, whether personally in your life for fulfillment and excitement and development, but also within your career. And right now you want to plan for disruptions and preparation. Right. Some things are changing. We've gone through Covid. We couldn't really prepare for that, but we've learned from that. We've learned how to now navigate hybrid or virtually. And I think you always want to prepare by your forecasting and your cash management, often we need to pay more Runway because we don't know what's ahead of us. So we have to give ourselves room, room to really plan for the worst but hope for the best, as we say, and pave more Runway so we can do more things and we have more time so we can be more nimble and flexible. And that's within finance, that's within your company and that could potentially be within your career. Right. So always be prepared and always be.

Forward thinking and closing words again, I said to you, John, in recent weeks, we're now leaving our guests to have the final word. The final say. That's what we call it, the final say. What are you going to leave our treasury folks out there, they've got one thing to take away. Final words resonating in their ears. What's the final phrase you'd give to them?

Final phrase would be leadership. Leadership in treasury for your teams, for your CFO and to communicate well amongst your teams. You want to be able to communicate well up and down the management stream and that communication includes speaking because we're going to be more in person, Mike. So we have to get back to speaking, speaking clearly and effectively in communicating those main ideas, but also being able to write so often now people are so used to social media and texting, think we need to be able to communicate and be able to write a process or a procedure or a strategic objective effectively. So communication with feedback and active listening.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.