Trading Risk Management for Treasury with Dennis Morais

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Dennis Rise, the global Treasury Director at GameStop. GameStop offers games, entertainment products and technology. There's e commerce properties and stores. But they're not just brick and mortar retailers anymore. We all know this. There's multi brands, they've got game side, they've got PC download delivery platforms, they've got a lot. Anything with gaming, well, you go to GameStop, don't you? But we're going to go back to the beginning of his career, how Dennis first ever started in treasury and obviously it's taken him right the way around the world and this is one of the things I want to explore all the way from Brazil and everything else. So Dennis, if you would take us back to the beginning of your story, how you then discovered finance and then moved into Treasury. Over to you, sir.

Hi Mike, thank you. Been an honor to be part of your show here. Thanks for having me. I started my career back in Sao Paulo, Brazil straight out of college I joined Whirlpool Corporation. I joined the Treasury Department team there. I was mainly working with the risk management insurance team there. Immediately got fascinated about risk management, treasury and I already could picture myself as becoming an executive of the company and working for a multinational organization which was part of one of my dreams here. When I was going through college, I was always very eager to learn and cures and how to learn about different areas of the organization. And obviously I had a great, I think manager within treasury at that time and he was really a mentor for life for me. So that helped me a lot.

And then when you did this though, you started in Brazil, didn't you? So this is Latin America, I think that's where you're from. But what was it like there and how did it compare to the rest of your career through the US and stuff? What was it, what was that like? How was it structured?

Sure, yeah. So we were, you know, being in Sao Paulo was the kind of the headquarters of the Latin American region for Whirlpool. Obviously everything that we did within treasury and Risk Management was following some of the global programs that Whirlpool had. Globally. An interesting fact is that when I was in high school, I went as a foreign exchange student to The US that helped me with my English. So every opportunity I had, and when we had folks come to visit Brazil to learn about, you know, follow our operations and whatnot, I would be involved in trying to learn. Brazil, I think, was a very important part of the business for Whirlpool, leading market share and within the Latin America region. But in treasury, obviously it was more focused on cash management, insurance and more the operations aspect. I always put a lot of effort to really learn and grow. Soon we became, you know, the supervisor of accounts payable there. Just trying to learn and get everything that I could be exposed to. Back in 2005, 2006, Whirlpool acquired Maytag and they were going through this major integration process there. That was when an opportunity came up here in Benton Harbor, Michigan as part of their Global treasury team within Risk Management still. And they reached out to me. If I wanted to be part of as an expatriate, come to the U.S. i didn't think one bit. I was like, yes, I would love to come and learn. And I knew that, you know, a lot of the exciting things was happening at corporate level, so didn't think twice. I moved back in 2006. That's when I came as an expatriate to Pento Harbor, Michigan. My first two years, I was helping with the integration about the merger with Maytag. During that process, even though I was doing risk management insurance, I would always offer myself to help with with doing the quarterly financial close process. You know, I would be part of helping with their working capital, dashboards, metrics. Anything they need help with, I would be around and help them and trying to learn other things within the company. On the third year, they would ask you to rotate and move to a different area as part of your development program. That's when I went and I moved to an FP and a budgeting and forecasting role within the North American role region. It was a very good opportunity for me to learn and it exposed me to accounting and finance. I had a very good experience of going through the budgeting and forecasting planning exercise. That was especially back in 2008 during the financial crisis. A lot of budget cutting and a lot of things that I think the US was going through and being part of that process. A little bit of stress involved there, obviously, but it was very good experience for me to learn and be part of that initiative and help the company, you know, right ties and go through that financial situation that we all went through during that whole process. I clearly developed a lot of different ties within the controllers, teams and other areas of the organization. I told them that my desire was still to stay in the United States, not necessarily go back to Brazil, where was my home country. Because I felt like that's where the action was. You know, I wanted to be part of that corporate still think I still had unfinished business, especially in Treasury. I expressed my desire. Fortunately I was able to stay there, continue to still work within FB and A budgeting and forecasting. But I also feel that that was a great experience for me to learn that my passion was with treasury. Even though I learned about accounting finance and treasury was really where my heart was and always kept very close ties with the treasurer at that time with the treasury team.

Whirlpool itself. Can you just. At that time, I know it's been through transition with the Maytag and I was just seeing crumbs. For some of the people listening, they're going Whirlpool. What was the breadth of the products you guys did? Or bring that to life if you would.

Yeah, absolutely. So Whirlpool still I think they're one of the largest, if not the largest home appliance manufacturer. They do washers, dryers, refrigeration. They have the whole cooking. KitchenAid is one of their premier brands about, you know, stand mixers and countertop appliances. So massive exposure worldwide with manufacturing plants across the globe in U.S. europe, Asia and Latin America. Brazil, that was, you know, I think at that time there were very, very large organization. 18, 19 billion. I think they're probably even larger now but. And again, being part of that corporate experience was fascinating to me. I still was in FB and A but I really learned that my heart was settling treasury and wanted to go back.

So why was treasury over fp? And I, I know why, because I do a Treasury podcast every single week for 200 plus weeks because I love it the way that you guys are focused on the future and all the exciting things you do. But that's from my, you know, sitting here in this chair. Why did you get yeah.

Treasuries to me I felt like forgiving me all my FBA and accounting friends. But it's a. Treasury is a lot more than transaction and recording things. And I think we from a Treasury in sync every day with the markets really, I think we see at first glance everything that happens, you know, whether there's volatility in the currency, commodities, where inflation, you know, investments are changing your balance sheet. So I feel that treasury, we have a very good pulse to the business and I even say this to my team. Don't underestimate any of our roles here because every penny that comes into the door for a balance sheet and goes out touches our hands and we have the opportunity to make a difference and interpret that and see what's happening with the market and help the company make the right decisions. So I felt that way. I feel this way about Treasury. That's why I love it. So again then I was trying to go back to Treasury. I remember like another fun fact when I made the decision to stay in the United States through that mortgage crisis. Brazil, China, remember India, they were like skyrocketing and they were booming. It was kind of completely different ship worldwide and everyone we even questioning my friends and family questioning my decision, like, oh, you're sure? I felt in my heart that they were unfinished business here. That's when an opportunity came within the procurement finance organization within Whirlpool. Again, going back to being a manufacturer of appliances, a lot of exposure to raw materials. They had a very robust commodity hedging program. So I was offered this role to go and help within the organization to assist with their commodity hedging program. Then that's when Micah told that I really learned about financial risk management. And that gave me an opportunity to learn about hedge accounting and market changes. You know, a lot of things. How even being part of the procurement organization at that time, really understand the contracting, the negotiation part, but also how to ensure that we can secure and manage the risk from balance sheet perspective for an organization worldwide. Right. So that was also very, very interesting. Soon I was offered a position to kind of formally go back to treasury, where I was not only doing the commodity hedging trading program, but also started. I was involved and I had a team, one person working in my team. And we were responsible for the cash task for Whirlpool for the North American region. That's when I got immediately involved with liquidity management, funding the company executing on intercompany loans, bank relationships management, commercial paper program that Whirlpool had it at that time. And it was great. They opened a lot of different doors for me within Treasury. And they also had a Treasury workstation at that time, which was a little bit still something very new within, I think, Treasury. So I was really happy and learning a lot more about Treasury. I was like in heaven, however. And this is, I think, part of being part of that big organization where they promote a lot of growth and whatnot. I was told that I was going to. There were going to be some changes within the treasury apartment And I was going to most likely be moved to a different role other than Treasury. And that was made me a little like, oh that's. I'm really enjoying this, what I'm doing.

Taking you away from it.

Right, right. So but those coincidence about life, you know, because my wife, which also worked for Whirlpool in a different department, she, she doesn't do finance or Treasury. She had received a job offer with relocation to come to New Jersey.

Oh wow.

And that was when we sat down say oh, maybe this is the sign as the opportunity for me to maybe look for different things within Treasury. And then I scratched my head and I thought to myself, if we move to the east coast New York area and I don't find a job within Treasury, I probably need to change my career. You know, I need to find something. Before we even moved, fortunately, I was offered a position to work for a consulting firm. And I was put in this project working for Financial Services, a banking organization, actually cit. Now they're owned by First Citizens Bank, I believe. But you know, they were doing a massive reengineering or replanning of the entire treasury team. They were implementing a Treasury workstation, they were rewriting all their policies and just pretty much remorting the entire department. So was very good for me to be part of that process as well. Come in and help and then get the company where assist with the implementation doing business requirements.

And Dennis, who was CIT just again for the audience, cit.

They were at that time they were had the two arms. One was their banking part and they also had financial lending business. They pretty much finance, provide financing, accounts receivables, factoring. They're very much on the financial services playing as a lender and as a bank. And they were a very huge balance sheet. They had 40 to 50 billion worth of assets that they were managing. They had business globally and they assist a lot of companies through the mergers and acquisitions and completing deals, providing actually this credit facilities and different types of any credit support that any company may need.

And looking back at that time and looking at you, you'd been quite corporate for 13, 14 years. What was it like for you to step into that sort of banking liquidity type role? Quite, quite a shift to you, I would say.

Would that be one that was actually. That's a great point, Mike. It was a quite a shift. I came through this very traditional manufacturing Midwest company very strong. Then I was all of a sudden in front of this very different, very fast dynamic financial services company where all different type of Products that I didn't even. I kind of heard about it, but I wasn't really aware, you know, all the different deals that they were doing. And it was a very big change of learning, you know, and from a Treasury perspective how to support those deals. You know, we oftentimes had to work on this where we were putting structures together, had to open different bank accounts in different jurisdictions to support those deals because of tax regulations and whatnot. Points in time I would look and like that has so much to learn here. Things that, you know, more from a deal side that wasn't really exposed. So it was very fascinating and scary at times for me. But again, I think I've always loved those type of challenges. I always try to take a step back and always working through my network and mentors, you know, to really help me navigate through those uncertain times and then through my career. I think I just held there. So. And again, learning and putting your best foot forward and addressing any questions. I think it was a great time for me to really learn completely a new industry. I remember being in treasury, had a bank account with the Fed, right. Because they had the banking license and really understand. And sometimes I feel like we create this imagery where it's so complicated and then we start going and learning like, oh, this is how it works.

So no, no, we don't want to take away that mystery. Come on. This is why you, the big bus, tennis, make it out to be so simple. We know you're smoke and mirrors guys, but. No, this is. No, I'm joking obviously. And one of the key things about it, as you say, is yes, there are changes of industry. Then you made that move from finance services to then that CIT to pro site. Can you explain about them or then the progression? Because was that exactly the same or was it different?

What was the key? Absolutely it was different because then while I was at cit, you know, learning through that whole process, I then came up for this very fast growing privately held insurance organization to lead their treasury team. So it was another shift, which it was like, okay, let's do it. I think it was a great opportunity for me to be. It was coming now. And for me, remember being at Whirlpool cit, multibillion organizations with a very large infrastructure. Now I was put into this private equity owned insurance company. They were growing and putting the infrastructure together, nowhere to hide, had to roll up my sleeves and really learn. It was also, I think a fascinating opportunity for me and I felt like, okay, maybe that's a place where I Can make a huge difference here.

Well, tell me about insurance because I've. I've recruited senior people for insurance companies. I've recruited for both an insurance group where it's about household policies, about houses and various other bits. Then I've also recruited the life insurance companies where it's very different. One particular guy recruited him. He came from normal insurance company, you know, with just standard car insurance and all the other stuff. And then suddenly he went into life insurance. They said well how are you getting on? You know. And he really struggled because one of the key things he said, he went to some of the actuaries and they said, well, what's going to happen next year? And he was like well, I don't know. They said no, no, neither do we. This is what we think. So I think did you have that or what was it like particularly pro sign?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think the CIT experience kind of helped me lead the way. But insurance very regulated, very like to your point. I mean there's a lot of things when you're dealing with insurance and the risk or the claims that you probably going to face throughout a specific year, they can come up out of the blue, obviously coming to a different balance sheet structure, right. Very cash rich, balance sheet heavy. And this is where I think obviously and helped me in my career to get exposed more to the capital market investment rate for every dollar that comes in. How are you gonna first put that money to work as soon as possible? And that's I think where the key treasury role and the infrastructure we built there was kind of designed. But also how to put it out a program together that you don't necessarily know what's going to happen tomorrow, but you want to also ensure that you're getting the best return on those that capital. But what if you need it? So it was very fascinating and going and learning working with the management team and you start going through the actuary part of it. It can get very detailed, very technical. So it gave me a great opportunity to learn about the insurance business itself. And again as I already mentioned, very regulated different legal entities and how you can deploy your capital. Certain rules that you have to follow. That actually was very fascinating. I really also liked the fact that I moved to a large infrastructure organization to a very lean. That's when I think I became to learn how to really multitask and from releasing wires to really speaking with the CFO and CEO about what's the vision about the department and how we're gonna. There's different projects and products that they're thinking about launching next year and how are we gonna support that? That's kind of where I think learning. And again, as I mentioned, the investment part of the capital markets really detail how those interest rate moves affect directly your business and how cash flow forecasting being a little bit challenged, but how you put that money to work and maximize your return as much as possible.

And Dennis, how do you protect against those bumps in the road in a right way? Good thing is because you've had that depth of corporate treasury experience and now you're in insurance treasury. How do you see them as differently? And I've had this before when I've done. I've recruited group treasurers for banks and I've grouped group treasurers for insurance groups. And in actual fact what we've done is they said look, the, the product isn't actually the product. So whirlpool, you obviously have home appliances and everything else. When you're in insurance and things. The product in itself is money and the risk in that money and the actual, you know, oversight of risk and financial risk management is key to it because it's. You're actually protecting the money itself because there is no end product per se, bar contract and everything else.

Right.

Do you see it in a similar way or what? How would you contrast it? Again, this is for the listeners out there, particularly in the more junior stage and thinking well, I've got been offered. We've recently recruited a couple of people from corporates into insurance groups and we've had to explain that to them. How would you characterize it?

I feel like that's where again and I've been fortunate enough earlier in my career when I was there doing hedging and financial risking. That's I think your risk management. I think CAT needs to be put on and really think about how to really develop a strategy where first learning the risk appetite from I think the stakeholders, the company and the board and really determining. Trying to. Okay, I always like to slice in two segments. When you're doing risk management or financial risk management about okay, what is that chunk of your policy or your program that you want to be very conservative, very like not being very crazy about it. Let's you know, make sure that you have some certain protections around. You're probably not going to get the best out of it. Right. You're not going to get the highest. But then you, you define that other part of it to really go a little bit crazy and really try to be a little bit more sophisticated. But then there could be upsides or downsides. Right. So and trying to be very pragmatic about it the conversations and really unlearning the about the appetite especially I think for us especially when you're in those type of roles and working for companies that have a huge exposure or even in our personal lives. Right. We sometimes say things but it doesn't really transpire to exactly how we perceive risk or our appetite for risk is so that's. I think it's very important for you to spend time and really define your policies and your you know, strategy and put it in a piece of paper as black and white as possible and share with the company and everyone because you know things change, it will change. Right. We know the market change is crazy so and to your point you can be a traditional treasury professional working into very like robust different companies and products but I think when you go to the financial services insurance company is regulated and very prone to risk, you know it could be impacted dramatically by interest rate changes, volatility. I think it changed a little bit the profile, the risk profile of the organization and you need to I think to adapt.

So I don't want to run out of time today. Then you've still got a couple more moves. So you'd completed that period of time in private equity backed insurance group and then bring us more through the next couple of roles because obviously an interesting time. So talk us through.

Yeah, yeah. So then I was at pro site doing there I was there for almost five years, four and a half years doing I think the company double in size while I was there through the team and again just to take 1/2 step backwards I before I knew it I was doing not only treasury cash management, liquidity management but I was also doing accounts payable cash application. I was doing reinsurance operations actually I had the insurance operations team reporting to me when I left very much aligned. I got a lot of involvement in the financial close process. I used to joke around I was almost becoming a CPA by by nature but then through my network came a good friend of mine actually told me about this opportunity at a retail children's place that they were looking for someone to step in and help with. They were going through treasury workstation implementation few changes within their organization. I felt that was a perfect opportunity for me to get back to the public company environment with exposure to US and Canada at that time for Children's Place I felt it was the right move for me and I don't regret one bit. It was fascinating changing industry. I loved learning new things and that's when I moved to Children's Place. Children's Place was retail. I remember they told me during the interview process they were it. This is very fast, it's very dynamic and I know you've been within the private equity kind of environment and that's why we like your background actually told me. But here, you know, we were looking to make some changes and move very fast within our strategy and Children's Space was moving trying to really develop their E Comm platform more on the getting rid for the brick and mortar type of infrastructure to move more to the E Comm. And there was no joke. They were right on until this day. It's still at my current role at GameStop retail. It's I tell everyone it's a fascinating world, very dynamic, especially now how information flows so quickly now and how changes need to happen for you to win at the marketplace, right you need to just their strategy and price points like on the dot. So it was a great experience for me to move to this industry now that also exposed me to learn and I also upsized their credit facility when I first joined they were doing a lot of short share buybacks, dividend managing those programs, being involved in the facility negotiations and also the store component, helping with the store cash management, banking operations. It was a great experience for me. And also I was also responsible for the risk management insurance team there purchasing insurance which kind of brings back to my early in my career which was like well this is awesome. It was there then Covid hit and we know, right? Covid, obviously we had to make some very tough decisions there. It was cash flow forecasting became a very, very critical part of the business there making sure we pretty much had to change the whole process into more survival mode and very tough decisions had to be made. And during COVID you know, just navigating through revisiting all our where that capital structure again very, very stressful. Very looking back now actually I don't regret one bit, but it was very challenging. But then, you know, throughout this whole kind of coming out of COVID and whatnot, I was presented this opportunity at GameStop where I am right now. And again GameStop it was probably it is almost three times larger than Children's Place with we have a huge presence in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and US and I think learning and meeting with the GameStop folks and understanding what the company was going through and the transformation that we are employing now and kind of treasury was no different. I said like sign me up for you know and I Think given my already retail background, I think helped me jump right through it, you know, going through. And we've been since then implementing a new ERP system, going through an SAP implementation, cashflow forecasting also something very, very critical. We've developed a very, I think important and robust model there with looking to the whole aspects of the store operations, cash management, merchant services. So it's, it's been just a very joyful ride here and here I am.

I touched on GameStop obviously GameStop without, you know, going too much into detail. It's been through, you know, well, headline press at one stage and you've gone in there and you know, been part of that or lived through it. What's it been like for you since you came on a joint? Because you know, I was going to talk about more about the fact that we're in a new world where you've got stuff like, you know, crypto coming out at you, you've got NFTs, you've got everything. What's it been like for you getting your head around all that stuff?

Yeah, no, it's been great. I've never worked for a company where I say like I'm with GameStop and everybody's like, wow, yeah, I know, I know GameStop, like it's been interesting that everywhere I go and once, once people realize I work for GameStop, everybody knows exactly who we are and what we've been doing. But you're right, I think the management team and we've been very thoughtful about it and we don't let all this moment distraction, if you will, impact on our day to day. We have a very specific mission and we have a strategy we're going after. I know that sometimes given everything that's happening, it doesn't become sometimes very public known how things are. But I think we've been putting our best foot forward and right decisions have been. We're still continuing making the right decisions. We need to go. When we're talking banks and we're talking to our lenders and we talk about credit limits and whatnot, it's obviously there's a lot of, I think education that goes around to where we are, what we're doing as a company and, and, and we have actually the GameStop has a very, very strong balance sheet right now, so which is helping us a lot. You also mentioned about the crypto nft. This is also an era that's. I didn't even know about it until I joined the company and developing that marketplace and going through all the changes that are happening on a daily basis and managing wallets and understanding the risk aspect to that, you know, what kind of exposure are we going to have, how we, we manage that program that we're developing and how has, has that to do with our existing policy? How does that match to our risk profile, as I mentioned earlier? So it's been really fascinating, something that I've never even would have dreamed about learning and, and getting involved too. So it's been really, really cool to learn and understand. There's so much to learn. Everything changes so much still. But it's been very, very exciting and very few companies, I understand, that have been doing that, but we are one of them and it's been fascinating.

And with that and looking you've got so much in your background, it's great. It's like Treasury, Treasury. Where do you see treasury going to next? Obviously we've been through challenging times, you know, came through Covid and now it came out. And then just as we were getting our breath back, obviously global events happened which have thrown a lot of challenges. We've got inflationary risks, we've got, you know, salaries taking off. We're doing that. We've just done our latest salary survey which has really shown that. What do you though, as a treasurer looking at or as a finance leader in some ways more, Is it your team development? Is it all the other things that are coming at you? What are the things that you're, you're thinking, right, got to get this right. But then these, the other challenges, what are the key things you're focusing on?

Yeah, I feel that, you know, with technology and the way the pace the world now evolves, you know, it's no different in Treasury. I think as I try to look back, we would always try to understand from our cash flows and what was happening with our industry or cash and whatnot, you always try to look back and it's right now it has to be we from a Treasury perspective and we need to know right on the spot, like every day, where's our cash? What happened last week? And developing that infrastructure around which I feel like with the advance in technology, with the new treasure workstations, around the new technology that banks are providing, that I think is key to learn. But also as you mentioned, a very important aspect about the people development. Right. The young talent that's coming in, how to have them not only learn about the technical aspects about treasury, but also how to use technology towards your advantage. And it's not more technology on the aspects or I need a support from my IT team or I need a special consultant to know you. How do you, you know, oftentimes we're going through a massive implementation now. But you as a Treasury analyst, how can you learn how to program the system, maybe make changes and create that cash flow statement we need now with the balances that came last night, you know, how, how can you roll up your sleeves and really be resourceful from that standpoint? So I see that treasury, it's, the pace is, is very different right now for you to be, I think very successful as a treasurer, I think you need to have the pose on your cash flows, your working capital. And that requires you really knows how the business is operating, what's the technology available to get you to have that information ready for you to analyze. And also obviously having the treasury background or the skillset to really help you make the right decisions.

And how do you encourage that with your junior team members? We're running over time, but I think it's worthwhile because I'm really interested in this piece. How do you as a treasurer, you know, you've got all these challenges to be you and the team. How do you manage that? Coach them? How do you do it?

Yeah, I think also trying to obviously challenge this status quo. Again, trying to be resourceful, as I've mentioned, learning. Okay. If we're supposed to. And I'll give you examples that we're, we're going through right now. Okay. We are feeding all this bank information through our system and this supposed to create some cash posting entries. And also we're trying to leverage that to really understand how's our working capital metrics going and if there's issues through that process instead of you like, oh, I need to get it involved, I need accounting to help me like, no, how can you be ahead of the curve here, really understand how the programming of that information is working. And maybe you. Because what you know exactly how the trend has been, oh, this information used to go this way and because the bank changed something and now it's causing us to have a different output of the data. Right step to it, you know, encouraging them to I think not only learn the technical aspect of their job, but also from a technology and from even an accounting aspect, you know, really to how to be prepared and really have.

That questioning mindset as well.

Exactly, exactly.

So we keep our show to half an hour, 40 minutes each week. We're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes Dennis. So I know that it's lots of people going to want to connect to you. Would you, if you'd like, wrap up today's show for me and just go through. We touched on a little bit there about coaching the team and everything else, but what takeaways would you give for anyone listening today?

I feel like for you to be successful, you always have to be curious, eager to learn, address the elephant in the room if there's one. You know, don't be shy or encourage you to write, ask the right questions at all times. And as I said, you know, I think being part of the treasury team organization, we have the privilege to really understand how the business is doing sooner than a lot of folks in the business. So don't be afraid of asking the questions and learning and being curious about it. I think treasury has a great community. There's a lot of mentors around there. And then be involved as much as possible.

Love it. Stay curious. And that's so many times, but I really think it resonates every time. So, Dennis, amazing. Thank you, sir. I know that lots of people will connect to you after this and it was good to, good to finally chat and thanks very much for your time, sir.

Thank you so much, Mike. I really appreciate the time and really, really honored to be here.

Pleasure. Thanks very much. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Destake, say 20 seconds. Leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.