Travelling the World through Treasury with Brendan Boucher

Foreign. So, welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show, I'm joined by Brendan Boucher, group treasurer at Compass Group. Compass Group, a world leading food and support services company. FTSE 100 listed company. Well, I was going to give you annual revenues, but I'm not going to do that. I'd rather talk a bit more about Brendan. He's been the group treasurer of the company since January 2018. But prior to this, and again, we'll explore in the show because we've got some really interesting moves there. Group Treasurer, AstraZeneca Petrofact based in Dubai, OMV over in Vienna. So it's really encompassed the international moves and things like that. But also chartered accountant, fellow of the act. And that's where we are out to really with Brendan. I want to go back to the dim, distant days, how you got there. So, Brendan, take us back to the beginning of your career and how you first got started in finance and then discovered the wonderful world of Treasury. Sir, over to you.

Yeah, thanks, Mike. I mean, lots of luck along the way. But just in brief, I studied geology at university, so clearly not a relevant degree, but I joined Coopers and Lybrand, showing my age now, which you'll now know as PwC. So I did my training down in Bristol for five years and really what sort of kick started it all on from, for me, from there? So this secondment to the office in Moscow back in 1995, and it was a real eye opener, having worked it down in sort of a regional office in Bristol for five years, four months in Moscow one summer really opened my eyes up to life outside of Bristol and what I'd been used to. So I looked for a move at that point into industry and luckily I ended up in Glaxo welcome in West London, Big pharma company back in the day and started working as a head office financial accountant, doing consolidations and tax returns, VAT returns, reporting to group and all of this good stuff, good role, great company. And I lucked into Treasury, I think is the best way to describe. Just came about because my predecessor in the treasury role had. We'd done some work together on implementing a car scheme in the UK business. He moved on internally and was looking for somebody to replace him and he gave me a call. I'd had Some interaction with treasury and I went and had lunch with him. He described the role and what the team do in more detail. And I said, it sounds brilliant, it sounds absolutely great. I'm super interested. Went and had an interview and I didn't get the job. And from being enthusiastic about it, I was really disappointed about it. But such as luck, sometimes the guy they offered the job to didn't take it. He went elsewhere and I got the job. That was my move into Treasury. It was my move from a business unit into the head office of glaxowelcome. And that's how I started. My first job in treasury was as Regional Treasury Manager for Middle east and Eastern Europe. So basically not doing a front office role or a back office role, but just doing an international advisory role. So I was very lucky to get that opportunity and that was my start in Treasury.

And you grew there, sort of your experience. And actually, it's funny, we were just talking before the show that Brendan used to work with Sarah Chain, who was our first ever guest, Sarah Jane hall from glassesmithkline. And we were just going through about what she was like and everything else. Fabulous lady. But, you know, you then started your development and just talk us through your GSK time, because that was, I mean, amazing that early in your career and you get. What were they at the time? Were they FTSE 10 even then?

Yeah, definitely, you know, so Glexo Wellcome merged with SmithKline Beecham to form GSK. I came from the legacy GW side, Sarah Jane, who was the group treasurer post merger and the other Assistant treasurers. My title in GSK was Assistant Treasurer International, which was a great role. So as an expansion of my Middle east and Eastern Europe portfolio to cover the international region. So that was, in GSK terms at the time, everything other than Europe and the Americas. So some interesting geographies in that portfolio. And, you know, frankly, it was almost like changing companies. Completely different office, different colleagues, different boss, different environment. It was an amazing. I spent 10 years in total with GSK and predecessors. An amazing company to work for. Highly successful, totally international, very blue chip and very professional. So it was a great environment in which to sort of learn and to evolve from looking after a small portfolio of countries to a large portfolio and over time picking up experience and increasing sort of responsibility for other things in treasury, whether that was line management of the back office, which I did in gsk, or obviously the funding and risk management aspects.

And as you say, it was sort of. It was opportune that you you moved companies, but didn't you stay same company? But again, it sounds like you got real progression there.

Yeah, no, definitely. I think. I think this is a key for me in terms of my own experience. And we'll talk about, you know, how people need to sort of develop their careers, but getting as much different experience in different places with different people. Particularly, one, it's been very interesting and two, it's really helped drive my career forward and, you know, that was pivot part of it.

And so it drove you forward, you know, then talk us through your time because then you made the international move after that. But there was development at GSK. You know, what was that like up to 06 and stuff?

Yeah, I think, you know, the development was great. You reached a decision point. I was assistant treasurer. Sarah Jane was no intention of moving on. Sarah Jane, still the group treasurer. So probably a good move that I did make a move rather than sort of hanging around, potentially move up internally. But no, joking aside, I had a decision to make to prolong my GSK career, which meant doing something a bit different, or to pursue my treasury career, which really meant an external move. And I deliberated on it a lot and decided actually the things that I enjoy about treasury were still the things I was enjoying about Treasury. Therefore, I decided I turned down an internal move into the business and that really was a springboard to make an external move. So I started looking and again, I was lucky. Obviously, a good background in GSK and a lot of hard work and experience along the way helped. But I had a call regarding a job and I remember talking to the recruiter, went through the spec in detail and I said, it all sounds great. And he said, but there's a catch. I said, okay, what's the catch? And he said, well, it's an Austrian company. And I said, okay, I understand. I don't speak German. I get the catch. He said, no, no, that's not the issue at all. It's an international company, but you'd need to move to Vienna. And I said, that's even better. Without really thinking it through, I thought, that's fantastic. So I was very lucky. I was able to make the move from assistant treasurer to group treasurer via an external move. And to put into the mix changing sectors. I moved from pharma to oil and gas and changing countries from London and the UK to Vienna, Austria.

And what was it you say you were open to that move? Had you considered international moves before? It was that sort of completely out the blue something again, because we talked earlier On. And we're just saying that treasury in your back pocket is fantastic. Sort of your mini passport, if you like, to traveling the world. But had you thought that yourself or where were you in that thought process?

To be honest, I was looking for a group treasurer role. An interesting group treasurer role. I think, having worked in gsk, very international group, that was a strength, given the experience that I'd had and something I'd already enjoyed. It's not just about the occasional travel to some interesting places, but just the daily contact and interaction with colleagues from all parts of the globe. I really enjoyed that. So the international aspect was a bonus. It wasn't something I was absolutely looking for at the time. The more I thought about it, I thought this is a great opportunity, but a leap of faith. I think there are a lot of people that would say, yeah, I'd like to work internationally, but to. To do it as part of a change of company and a change of industry and a change of job level, in this case from. From 80 to group treasurer takes a little bit of courage. And, you know, it was a step into the unknown. And sort of looking back on it, the whole experience was probably the most challenging of my career and probably the most rewarding in my career in sort of equal measures. And it certainly requires a strong stomach to take that on.

You had the stomach for it. So you were there for what, three years or so? And what was that like? And when you got into treasury, there was a fresh team or brand new or the established team, or what was the sort of background.

It's a very established team, very stable team and a lot of experience, you know, and it's probably the first time in my career, which may be what you'd expect when you make the step up to managing people with more certainly in terms of years experience, more experience than yourself. So I. Three teams, three direct reports, all with significantly more years under their belt and more experience than myself, which is. It's helpful from a learning perspective. Introduces some challenges at the same time. So, yes, very, very stable team, very successful organization, but a big, big transition to make.

Yeah. So you've made the move. You'd got yourself established in Vienna properly, feet under the desk and everything else. And then you made another international move. Talk us about that.

Yeah, as with these things, it was challenging. And that period I was OMV coincided with the financial crisis, so it was pretty stressful going for a period where liquidity in the market dried up completely and free cash flow dried up completely with the oil price going from 150 to 50 odd, all at the same time. So it was a real sort of challenging and it was a stressful period and, you know, my wife and I decided, look, we're going to. We've had a great experience, loved living there, amazing work experience. That's the stage of our careers. Let's, let's head back to the uk. That was the plan. And I was. I had one of those sort of perfect storm situations, as I'd put out feelers, and I actually had three simultaneous job offers, believe it or not.

Mr. Popular.

Well, it was just one of those sort of strange situations, one that felt very familiar and comfortable, which had its attractions. One was a little bit smaller but different, which had its attractions. And one was petrofac, which again, was something completely different. As a startup, there was no treasury function at all. And I mulled over for some time. I remember sitting on a boat on my 40th birthday in Lake Como, speaking, Speaking to two of the companies who are both pressuring me for a decision. You know, it's, it's funny how you reflect back on. Yeah, on these things, but, you know, with, with. I talked to a few people, got some external perspective to help, and once I'd really thought about it, the right thing to do was the, the sort of more challenging one, which again was. Was petrofac. I turned the job down initially because they said, you need to go and debase yourself in the Middle east.

But.

And I said, look, part of the reason for my move is to come back to the uk. And the CFO called me one Sunday and said, look, why don't you give it a go? Why don't you go for a year, 18 months. You like us, we like you. Move yourself back to the UK safety.

Net, as it were.

Yeah, exactly. It's a British company, but the biggest part of the business run out of the Middle east, so hence a preference to have people on the ground there, albeit with corporate roles. And it was the right decision to make. So we moved directly from Vienna to Dubai, so you couldn't be more of a contrast in terms of locations and from a very established role and company to a rapidly growing one and a Treasury startup. I was simultaneously group treasurer and Group Treasury T boy at the same time. So it's fine. It was a very interesting challenge, very interesting place to be. And, you know, frankly, having done. Having had one international move and experience under my belt, making the second one was a lot easier. Just emotionally, it was a lot easier being prepared and accepting of things being different and the unknown was just a lot easier.

And you went in and established this treasury, as you say, from scratch. What was that like? And you know, for someone listening today and they think, oh, I might do now, have I got the guts to do it? You know, what are the sort of elements of that that you think people need to think about or, you know, not tempering their minds, but what are the key things? You sound like you're very open to this idea, although it's a brand new challenge. Boom, you know, you've done Vienna, now you're in the Middle East. You know, what are the things that you would. Someone else was doing the similar move and they're saying, oh, Brendan, what should I do? Or what do I need to think about? What would you say?

Well, I think just you have to be prepared to be out of your comfort zone. That's, that's the number one. And you going to work in Vienna and you going to work in Dubai at the time were going to be different, but I couldn't articulate how they were going to be different. And you just have to be open minded and there's going to be some setbacks. My boss, when I moved to omv was a very experienced CFO and he said, you're going to go home some days and say, what the hell have I done? Why did I come here? And my last day when I left the office, I was sat with him. I said, I remember you telling me that. And there's plenty of days where I've gone home saying, how are we going to deal with this situation? This is stressful. But there isn't one single day I've gone home and said, I regret making the move to come here. So I think that's kind of the attitude you have to have. You're going to have some setbacks. It's going to test your resilience and test your family and your support network. Because this may sound like a small point, but you know, moving, if you've grown up in an area, you've got a network of family and friends around you, suddenly overseas, your only network in my case was my wife. So, you know, you become all things to each other and you know that that could be good, it can be bad, it can certainly sort of test you out, but you know, brings you is a sort of family close together because you're more reliant on, on one another to help through the sort of the ups and downs. And I think that's what it is. You have to expect that the ups will be a bit higher and the downs might be a bit lower. Yeah.

In terms of treasury diving into that, you said it was a startup in those terms. So what did you focus on? What was your 90 day plan as it were, or if you remember back that far, but just in general when you walked into that sort of environment because just want to do this briefly before we then make that other move to AstraZeneca. But again, if someone's listening in and they're wanting tips, say, oh actually I'm going into a fresh treasury, as it were. What's your ethos, if you like, around going into that?

The organization has to be clear on what the mandate is. In this case there's a clear mandate for change and clear support from group cfo, who's my boss downwards for change. You have to have that in place to help it be successful. You also, I think have to be realistic because if you are making changes in that case there was an element of taking what had historically been totally decentralized and responsibility for things like bank facilities, bank lines and all of that with the operating units and centralizing it, you're going to find some resistance to change from within the business. So again, it's not to say look that you're heading into a major conflict and a fight, but it is a case of setting out a sensible plan and to be patient. And the way I approached it was to set out a plan and to identify what absolutely should be the responsibility of the new group treasury function where the policy boundaries lied and get all that agreed at the high level in the room with the business units represented. Let's have the debate. Are we all agreed on this? And then we can move forward and recognize you're not going to be able to do everything all at the same time. And there may be resistance from parts of the business and of course I. And we experienced some of that as we went through, but just to sort of work it through and you know, you have to develop credibility. So you know, people say, right, you take it on, that's fine, but you better do a better job than we've been able to do ourselves. And better job in some cases means cheaper price for the business, say, and if you take it on and you don't deliver, then you're going to find more resistance. So again you have to have the stomach for it. And sometimes to be firm and clear, manage expectations and be patient, you might say, I want to wave my magic wand and have full centralization in a year. It isn't going to Happen, but just start off with the basics, chip away at it, get the credibility and then you move on to the next stage of building the team, building the infrastructure to support what you need to get.

Done and move in the right direction all the time as well. Yes, as you say. So you were there, what, five years or so?

Yes.

So you did five years Middle East. Why the move?

The key points that we'd been outside of the UK for eight years, then we wanted to come back for family reasons, to be closer to our parents as they get a bit older. So I could have relocated with my existing job, just moved, having sort of established the function and the treasury group in Dubai, I could have relocated myself back to London and done the job from there. But just the fact that you say, okay, I'm going through the process of having to make another family move, physical move, let's at least have a discussion externally with what other things might be be available. And it just coincided with a call regarding AstraZeneca. And obviously having worked in pharma before I knew what I was going into, and again, also another great company, FTSE 5 Corporate, and again, some real changes to make as a result of a relocation of the team, in that case from London up to Cheshire. So in the end I enjoyed my petrofect time very much and enjoyed the people I worked with, good sort of prospects. But it was, it became a relatively straightforward decision to say, look, I have to make this move, it's a good opportunity, good time to join. And going back into big Pharma, which I spent 10 years and enjoyed in the past, was quite attractive as well. So, yeah, that's how it came about. So we moved then directly from Dubai to Cheshire.

Again, for the people listening, AstraZeneca is a massive pharmaceutical that is walked in, brand new team or where it was up to in its development stages.

Yeah, a lot of change in the team. The treasury function had historically been based in central London, was relocated at the time I joined to Cheshire, where the group tax and group finance functions had been for some time. So a mixture, a number of people were asked to and did relocate from London to Cheshire and a number of people didn't make the move and recruited locally in the Northwest. So clearly a period of time, lots of changes of personnel in the team and again another sort of physical move. So, you know, really the focus was not so much a radical overhaul of treasury, which was in good shape, systems, processes, ways of working, embedding down a new group of people was a prerequisite there. Following the Move.

And how do you do that? You know, we talked earlier about you establishing some of the stuff, more practical things about a new treasury. But, you know, what's your people management ethos? Is it about just sitting down, getting to know everyone and being the cuddliest friend this treasury can be, or how do you actually do it?

I think it's a bit of all things. Well, one, I think with all of this, the whole sort of leadership angle, you have to be true to yourself. Absolutely. It's the wrong approach, in my opinion, to try and be who you aren't. You need to be sort of cognizant of your natural style, may need to be flexed from time to time. And I see myself as generally a fairly relaxed and sort of collegiate person. But certain situations call for a more direct approach. We're going to sort of specifics, but there were some sort of specifics and things. This is irritating. I don't want to see this way of working. I don't want to see this happening in the team. And people down had some robust discussions, said that this has to stop. I remember an off site that we did in Chester over the course of a weekend where we set out the expectations and I was clear what I expected of the team. We all went through our sort of individual strengths and weaknesses, so we understood each other better. Not just sort of a team bonding session, but a mixture of that sort of soft skills, if you like, and dedicating the time to appreciating that everybody's different in the team. It was very helpful. And then we used it to have effectively a sort of a contract amongst ourselves, which was helpful and we was used more than once subsequently to that, to calling out behaviors which were not commensurate with what we'd agreed. So you have to be prepared to be robust. If you need to make changes, you need to make those changes. But sometimes you've got to work with what you've got. Right? You might say, I want to change the entire team, but I don't think that's the right approach. I think working with what you've got, developing people, giving opportunities and over time opportunities will naturally present themselves to change things around, around to give different people different exposures. And frankly, you need to obviously be cognizant of other people's development as well and make sure people are getting those opportunities. Because if you don't, they will leave, they will get them elsewhere.

We're there for that period of time and then AstraZeneca move. But you also then come that with the move to join Compass and we'll sort of bring ourselves up to date there. And I think with Compass in particular, you perhaps describe it yourself, but you know, in the recent times with Bid and everything else, you made a move which you can describe if you would, and then with the sort of effect on. Let's talk about perhaps pre Covid and what you guys were doing and then during. And then coping. I think it's a lovely little sort of section of the show, as it were, because I think people will certainly really resonate with it as well because they'll probably be in very similar situations. So, you know, you were there for again, AstraZeneca for sort of three, four years or three years and they moved and things and, you know, talk us through that, if you would.

I don't mind saying, a little bit sort of frustrating for all of us to have relocated. People relocated from London to Cheshire. I moved internationally to Cheshire to lead the team and then within sort of three years we were asked to relocate again to Cambridge. That's quite a tough ask for people, quite frankly. And I'm not just talking about the treasury function in other areas. The uptake of people wanting to make the second move was relatively low. And again, it's frustrating. It's a brilliant company, great opportunity and we all enjoyed working there. But personal logistics sometimes dictate what people would want to do professionally and that's what we were up against. And I felt a little bit bad by not making the move myself and choosing to leave. But it's one of those things, isn't it? Where do you want to locate yourselves? And Cambridge might work for some people, it doesn't work for everybody. That was difficult, you know, it's difficult to sort of maintain our performance as a function during another period of uncertainty. People making life changing decisions about whether to relocate or to move. And then as I was exiting, trying to recruit and help build the team, including my sort of successor in AstraZeneca in Cambridge. So, you know, a tricky balance, getting all of that right and keeping positive throughout. But, you know, my personal preference led me to make a change. I didn't know much about Compass beforehand, but global catering company, we don't trade as Compass Group, but. So you might not be familiar with the name, people listening in, but you, you almost certainly have eaten our food either in your office or if you've been to Wimbledon or Twickenham or Tottenham Hotspur stadium and many other sort of international locations, a global catering company. It was described to me as. This is not A caretaker role. We need to make some important changes to improve the efficiency of the treasury operations. And that's precisely the path I and the team were on over the last couple of years before we hit Covid. And it's all sorts of things. Not a full centralization, very decentralized organization, just improving the interaction between the center and the businesses. Not being reactive in firefighting, but being proactive and partnering, putting in place new cash pool, new treasury management system, overhauling policies, et cetera, et cetera, and then just strengthening the team and the resilience and the capacity the team, succession planning and all of this. And got. We've. We're making good progress and then obviously run into the COVID situation. Obviously, this is a hospitality business. We found ourselves quite significantly impacted. And since the beginning of April, about 50% of our global business has been closed. So you need a significant shift into a way from profit margins and incremental improvements to a real external and internal focus on liquidity covenants and the things that are bread and butter to treasury professionals, but not necessarily to our board and IR colleagues who are talking to external community analysts and investors regarding things like liquidity and covenant tests and so on. So it was a very challenging period. Obviously, everybody, many, many others are in the same category. Of course, we had to do a lot very quickly and just sort of reflecting back on it in that period. At the end of middle of March, the office had technically closed. We'd gone into lockdown. The only people left in the office were the CEO, CFO and a few of us from the treasury team. Which probably tells you a lot about where the focus was at the time. Our initial projections of what we thought we may need, and that was based on input from the businesses, of course, we came up with a number. Our CEO said you need to double it in terms of liquidity. Really, it's kind of sharp intake of breath. So we did a lot in a very short space of time and just to sort of raffle them off. Incremental Credit Facility bank of England Covid Corporate Finance Facility. We were, I think, the first corporate to access that program at 1 minute past 10 on the day that the window opened for issuance.

You're doing the speed, the speed calling like you do for concert tickets. Hey, it's us. Yeah, yeah.

Yes, exactly. And I think that's the key thing here, is sort of identifying where we were going and responding really rapidly. Okay. Every bank was being asked for additional liquidity. Some of your banking partners, in our case, more helpful than others. It was pretty challenging to put credit facilities in place at the end of March this year. So we did that with the bank of England facility covenant waivers and we negotiated financial covenants from our bank facility last year. Smart move. With hindsight, we had legacy covenants in our US private placements which since initiation in 2011 had never had any airtime and we'd operated miles inside of those covenants. All of a sudden the latest projections say you might have an issue. So going through the covenant waiver process as part of going concern debate for the half year end for the audit, a lot of time spent with the board going through liquidity and our response and then culminated in a 2 billion accelerated equity placing which I think is the largest equity placing in the UK as a response to sort of COVID and all that done in a sort of 10 week period which was continually intense and moving from one sort of stressful project to another. But if you sort of as soon as you can reflect back on it, you know, I'm sort of, I'm really proud of the, the team for the resilience and the ability to step up when asked. And I said when we went into this, when we first started working from home, this is our time in the spotlight and we need to step up and okay, not every single person in the team was directly involved in all of the projects but even if people weren't, they were picking up the slack where other people were focused on some of those crises projects. It's sort of good indication of indication that good people in place with the right experience and frankly the right attitude to step up and to work with that immediacy and laser like focus when it's, when it's required, you know. And that for me is the most rewarding part of it. I think we were able to step up to the challenge and really sort of help put the company in a, in a good place now and moved on to. There are plenty of challenges ahead, but at least liquidity, balance sheet and all the things that we can control as a Treasury team. We're in good shape on. So it was certainly challenging, definitely but it was very rewarding to see the.

Response as you come out of it. Now what are the sort of plans for the future? Who knows? We're slowly returned to normal, if that's the right way to put it. But as we move forward, how is the business recovering? How's treasury sort of planning for the future sort of thing?

Yeah, we don't have the crystal ball on when our business comes back. We don't know when people will be back to mass sporting events. We don't know when people will be fully back into their offices eating our food. And indeed whether there are some structural changes with more working from home going forward, sort of changing the business model a bit. So all we've been able to do is to organize our, our balance sheet and liquidity, et cetera, to say, look, we're well placed to deal with it, even if this situation pertains for many years to come. So that's the first thing that we can do. I think we have to take some learnings from all of this and one, that when push comes to shove, we can move more quickly. Sometimes big companies can be rightly accused of being a bit slow to make changes, but when you're really faced with it, you can do things very rapidly. The right level of interaction across the business. So we shouldn't lose sight of that going forward. Forward. And you know, it's a reminder that we need to be as efficient as we possibly can on the basics and free up our, you know, I think the philosophy for us is use the technology that's available, automate not the day jobs, but automate the processes as far as we can so that we can maximize using our relatively small resource. We're not a big team to better support the business. And you know, that that has to be something we continue focusing on going forward.

How do you filter that? And again, just a bit of perspective. I sometimes talk about CFOs, not pushing the treasurer under the bus, but pushing you out in the front of being their filter for technology, being their filter for new initiatives, and saying that we talked about this again, that you very much are at the forefront of a lot of financing and initiatives and this fresh technology. And you go, is this right? You're constantly looking at what would be the return on investment if we did move to this system, or is it driven by the business and thinking actually we need to implement this to make it work? Or what's the sort of thought process, would you say?

I think it's hard and I think it's getting increasingly hard with the way the technology is sort of developing. You know, one, it's obviously a great enabler for some of the basics. But if you take our situation, decentralized company, lots of different ERP platforms around the place, so no uniform ERP solution. So we're the opposite end of centralization when it comes to consistency of processing and access to information. So obviously that's a business issue, is not something we could necessarily drive from the treasury side. So we have to sort of step back and say, well, what's important to us? Where can we add some value? So just as a small example, we put in place a notional cash pool over the last couple of years. It might not be sort of seen as state of the art and full physical centralization of cash, but it reflects our organization and is a relatively quick win effort to put it in. But it's a relatively quick win to get most of the benefits without disrupting what's going on in the business. So you have to be sort of proportional. It won't be the same for everyone. Some people listening to that will say, why would you possibly have a notional cash pool these days? But it worked for us. It got us most of the benefits with minimal disruption around the business. And in a low margin business, and this hospitality is a low margin business, you have to be efficient with what you do. I think sort of picking between how the technology is developing. We are still at the point of putting in an upgraded treasury management system is our sort of core system. And hopefully with the. Yeah, we've got that decision. Right. And hopefully with the capabilities to build and integrate going forward with that system, you know, that's. You can't do everything all at the same time. So we sort of broken down it. Let's do the cash pool, let's do the treasury management system and then let's see where we are and see how it evolves from there.

We're coming towards the end of the show and what we'll do is we'll put on the. We'll put Brendan's LinkedIn profile in the show notes. But before we get your top three tips, if you like, for people, if they want to, you know, follow a similar career to yourself. But just back from that, just for a moment, you know, just with yourself. You've been through this amazing journey of treasury and it's taken you around the world literally. Again, you know, what are your thoughts just on being a treasurer and why it's such a great profession? Because we talked about this and, and we were just saying that it's a blessing and a curse sometimes as well. You know, we were just talking about the fact that, you know, all treasurers do exactly the same job the same way with the same title and they don't, you know, it's all different ways and different challenges, which is in itself is fantastic. But you then came up and we were then talking about, you were saying that it literally has been the way to take you around the world as a person. So just reflecting on that for the listeners today, what are your thoughts?

Well, I think what first attracted me when I had that first discussion before I moved into treasury sort of over 20 years ago now, the things I felt attracted me at the time, it's like it's forward looking, it's externally focused, it's highly international. If you're in a large international group, of course, and it's impacted by external events which can make it challenging but it also makes it very relevant and what's going on in the wider world to a lesser or greater extent has an impact on what we do. I like the external focus, the relationships, whether it's with banks, other stakeholders, rating agencies, it's another dimension to the role. And I think being in the corporate HQ gives you sort of excellent insight to the business. Obviously you have good access to senior leaders and the board. There's a lot of individuals that I interact with on a day to day basis where, you know, you continually learning from whether that's sort of business knowledge, technical knowledge or just, you know, their leadership approach. And I think it's a great place to see all of that and you know, good level of internal collaboration as well. You know, one of the, one of the things we work closely with other corporate functions and with other parts of the business as well. You know, each of the, each of the countries across, we've got four, we're in 45 countries and have interaction with, with all of them from time to time. And I think also you need, there is an ability to make a real difference, you know, whether that' financially we've tweaked around with our FX and interest policies and delivered some material savings as a result. Same on the insurance side. Efficiency of operations. If we can make our lives easier and the lives easier of all of our operating companies around the group, then so much the better. So I think the principles of what happens in treasury, what we do, the risks that we manage, somewhat similar to when I started, the way we go about it is quite different now with more technology and as you say, this is a transferable skill to a lesser or greater extent. Every large company will need a Treasury resource. And as I've sort of proven to myself and evidence of, you can do this role in pretty much any country, language barriers aside and pretty much any sector, the nuances and the specifics will be different. But having that sort of transferable skill is, I found sort of, of it's helped have a really sort of rewarding and Interesting, Interesting career. And I can't really see that changing for treasury professionals.

Now, does that give you all three tips or anything else? I mean, we will put your LinkedIn profile in the show Notes. I didn't want to interrupt because I thought it was great. But, you know, if someone is looking at that, you know, what would you more on just a real individual basis? So say you're sitting there. And again, again, a lot of our UK listeners tend to be, earlier on in their careers, more treasury manager level, wanting to one day get your role. And some of the US listeners, which is a big part of the listenership as well, you know, they will have listened into your war stories and some of the stuff you've talked about, because that's. Again, when I've spoken to them, they said, that's what we want to hear about, Mike. But maybe for the earlier, those listeners, earlier in their careers, what sort of tips would you give or what, you know, what summaries would you say?

Yeah, I think three things. One, get involved. I think that's the key thing people should focus on doing in their current roles. I would encourage people, and I do encourage people, irrespective of their level. I think people should be able to talk with confidence about what the function does, what's important, what are the key or topical issues and how they impact the business. If people aren't thinking in that way, you're trying to understand the business and be able to articulate it. Let's just say you were stuck in a lift with the CEO and they said, well, what's going on in Treasury? People should be knowledgeable, irrespective of who they are and where they sit in the treasury hierarchy. That level of curiosity, if you like, I think is key. Secondly, I would encourage people to get as broad an experience as possible, whatever that means. Do different roles in the function, move around. Don't say, oh, I don't have any experience to do that, either get the opportunity or do some job shadowing or do some sharing or put in place a buddy system where you cover from somebody when they're on leave or something like that, just to broaden your experience. And thirdly, it doesn't necessarily have to mean changing jobs, but in my case, that certainly benefited me significantly. We talked a bit about the international experience. That's a bonus. But it does definitely increase your confidence, your ability to deal with different situations. And I just sort of reflect and say, I was much better prepared to deal with this coronavirus crisis than I was. The financial crisis in 2008 simply because I've got a lot more experience and picked up a lot of. A lot more sort of scars along the way and just, you know, have the sort of confidence and robustness to deal with it. And over and above that. Changing jobs might sound scary. It might not be the easiest. The easy thing might be to do is to stay put. But, you know, I found it hugely rewarding as well. You know, it's a steep learning curve each time you make a move, particularly if you're going into something unfamiliar. But I think if you adopt it with the right attitude, one, it will benefit your career significantly and two, you know, you find it hugely rewarding. You just have to be flexible and accept the ups and the downs.

Yeah, well, great summary there. So make sure you understand the business. So if you bump into the CEO in the lift, love that one. Don't be afraid to work across roles. So, you know, cross train, as it were, and as you say, don't be afraid to make the move when needed and prepare you for the future. Amazing. Great final summary there from Brendan. Mr. Boucher, thank you for your time today. Been truly just a natural flow to it and I really enjoyed it, as I do with a lot of the shows. But we've known each other for many years, but I just think it just sort of flowed. I think there were so many sections that people can just grab value from, whether it's about managing people, managing a crisis, you know, know we could. Well, we'll release some of these as little mini excerpts sort of thing which people can listen out for. So it all remains. Thank you very much, sir. Been great to chat.

Thank you, Mike.

Thank you, sir.