Treasury Framework in Media with Dave van der Zwan

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week talk to Treasures about how they've built their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. In this week's show I'm delighted to be joined by Dave van der Schwan, the deputy treasurer at Endermole Shine Group, headquartered in the Netherlands. Endermeal Schein is a Dutch based media group. They create world class content, entertaining and throwing billions of people around the world. The world's largest independent producer work on unique global and Local Access120 production labels. So if you're thinking about some of the shows, you might have heard of a couple of minor ones like super brands like MasterChef, Big Brother, Deal or no Deal, some amazing things there. And in the drama portfolio you got one of my favorites actually. Peaky Blinders, Black Mirror and some of the world scripted titles. Amazing amount and range of different productions globally. And Dave will get him to sort of explain how that sort of impacts on Treasury a little bit and about the way they run themselves and things. But I want to go back as always each week. Dave can explain that later on in the show. But Dave, take us back to the beginning of your career if you would and maybe how you first started in finance and what there's a passion for you and then you discover treasury and how you've developed from there really. So sir, over to you.

Yeah, thank you Mike, thanks for the intro. And left on the show today. Like you said, I'm in Treasury for quite a while now. Over 10 years by now. My first introduction treasury was actually during a kind of an internship which I did during the final stages of my university education. Started work in a kind of a risk legal setting in a kind of an internship in a company which, which is called Hertel, which was close to the university and where I lived and actually that, that went well and I decided to stick around there as a side job next to my studies. And then in 2008 I was asked to join the company on a permanent basis and due to the growth plans they had and they, they needed hands at the head office, me being still very junior within the company and the head office team expanding also in areas like finance and Treasury. So a new treasurer was on board, the finance team was further professionalizing and they could use a fresh pair of hands. So that was my first intro to treasury and the first year I worked alongside the treasurer, I worked alongside the group Controller and filled the legal counsel and I did basically did a little bit of everything which was very nice and also fits my background and did a very broad business administration course. Yeah, most of the people in the market will probably recognize that. Is that by the end of your education, although you have a specialization in finance, you're still not sure what you want to do. Tim Holtz for me at the time, so I started to do that internship and then yeah, got to know the professions better and after a year I was asked to make, make a final decision which, which direction I wanted to go and that was for me. And yeah, today I, I still like it after 12 years and, and three different companies. So.

So talk to me about your first, you started with HERTL and then you progressed to some interesting different companies and different sort of challenges there if you like. So you know, maybe kick us off with HERTL and then how treasury was different in each of those. Now when we had a conversation before, it's quite sort of different. Oil and energy through to TV production and everything in between. So you know, take us back as well.

Yeah, sure, yeah. Like you say, quite different companies I've worked for so far. Hertel is a company which was active industrial services, so to say. So everything from paint, painting the scaffolding and isolation, etc. And yeah, the chemical plants, that's what we did there. Growing organization. They expanded in Asia and Middle East. That comes with some treasury challenges, of course. The organization grows and the footprint grows. There's treasury challenges coming up. Not necessarily the case if you're still a company which is predominantly operating in Europe or in a small number of countries. So the treasury profession was basically pioneering there. So my first manager, with whom I'm still in touch today, was the first treasurer of that company and I worked alongside her to basically build up the treasury function which was still new for me. I worked in that company still and I did everything around setting up cash pools, day to day cash management, the entire bank guarantee portfolio, which is sizable in a combination which, in a company which is active in that industry, all those kind of things. So very interesting variants. From there I moved over to PostNL. That was back in 2011 all in all I worked then four or five years and it was the right time for the right move in postnl. What I found there is basically that's the business which was formed after the demerger between Post and now and TNT now got acquired by FedEx. And what happened there is that there were two very mature treasury organizations demerged Both of them were listed both of the companies. And so then you have to have your checks and balances in your organization right from the start. But still what I liked about that setup is that although you have very structured and professional setup of the, of the treasury, the postal business and the parcels business, what BNT Express was doing, they have completely different dynamics. So different teams were formed, but also the dynamics of the business are different and therefore there is a different fit for the Treasury. So although there is a basis, you can further develop it from there. And so we did. So what I found there was an experienced team. I joined as a cash manager there again focusing operations day to day cash management, access cash investments, which was somewhat different than what I faced in Hertel, which is private equity owned with some more squeeze on liquidity. So new experience for me in a very controlled and structured environment also had its challenges at some point on the corporate finance side, on the credit standing side. So I went through that journey and year on year I developed into more different areas within treasury there as I got a lot of room from my managers there to develop myself and then to be part of the team in other things and then cash management only and got the first connection with the whole strategic part of treasury and the corporate finance world, et cetera.

And we talked about that before the show and when Dave and I had a pre show. Some people will have an image of working for a postal company if you like, but actually when you and I spoke, you said it wasn't just, it was very commercial, it wasn't just a sort of, you know, civil service sort of.

No, not at all, not at all.

Explain, explain that for again the listeners because they might have that impression and I certainly didn't get that impression when we had a conversation. So maybe explain the commerciality, would you?

To be very honest with you, I had the same impression when I was first asked to join the procedure for the company. Exactly what you said. But during my first set of conversations with the recruiter and then my 2B colleagues later on as well, I got more and more enthusiastic about the company setup. Now the postal business in the Netherlands is interesting. I think the company is already a bit more advanced in what it's doing than a lot of other postal companies in the world. So there was a focus on digital, there was a focus on optimization, and all in all, I think the Netherlands is one of the countries in which postal volumes drop more significantly than in other countries. So there was a constant need to adopt the company to that which also had its treasury challenges, of course. So that's very interesting. Moreover, postal and let's say non urgent parcels in the Netherlands go hand in hand. So in post and now you have still a core postal model but also a very rapidly growing parcels business and those go hand in hand. Moreover, when I was working there, the company still had international operations in Italy, in the UK especially and they were the number two market players there. Germany as well. I forgot to mention there's a lot of international activity as well still with different markets and different development of the postal market. So that was a very interesting mix on the treasury and the corporate finance side, but also business wise and especially because this company was already very digital in its thinking. Although that's not something what you would expect from a traditional cultural company. This company was very, very modern company and great environment to work in actually.

And that was a great learning ground for yourself. And again we talked about this and gave you a really good insight to treasury overall. How did you then make the move and join Endermole and then we'll really deep dive into your current role there as deputy treasurer.

Yeah, in the end I was working in postnow for almost six years. Also when I joined postnow I was not really looking for anything else. I was still happy in the role. But if you think about it a bit more and some opportunities cross your path, then it might be the case that there's something interesting out there, especially after a number of years. I think if you look at my resume, I tend to stay a bit longer in companies, but not too long to date. Also depends on the steps you can make and the things which are to be done. What made me make the decision to move away from Boston now is the fact that within Animoshine Group there was a different kind of challenge, challenge ahead of us. So for me it was the moment to bring both of my past experience together in a more strategic role for myself. So becoming deputy treasurer in a company with Animal Shine Group, but also still very experienced manager which I also worked for. Both now in the hotel by the way, but gave me a different kind of dynamics in my my career at that time after six years I think it was a good moment. But also if you look at the company and Moshein is one hand being a multibillion revenue company, on the other hand partly private equity owned. And so with a lot of high leverage like that, with different challenges than Postponel, I think at that time that was for me the right move. And there I also made a combination between what I learned in postsonnel on the setup and then the organizational and the framework etc. Combined with my knowledge, which I already named in Hertel on the private equity side, what that kind of implication was, for me that was the key driver to move to Endermoshine Group together with a strong brand and the international footprint.

Well, tell us about it. I mean obviously, you know, as the head of the show, sort of international tv, film, TV production predominantly and drama and things like that. Massive amount, array of different treasury challenges, issues and things like that. In a good way. Talk us through that.

Yeah, sure. You see in media what we do is we make productions as it's no surprise to anyone. So we make TV shows, but we also make films and series. And lately there is also a stream which is called commercial or digital revenue and that's everything which had to do with for example brand licensing or YouTube and those kind of things. But if you focus on the core of the business we make and we create beautiful productions which can be non scripted. So the Morton TV shows and scripted which are the series, each of them can be seen as a different kind of project and each of the project is having potentially some treasury connection. So each of the productions requires an investment, so an analysis. Is it profitable? What is the working capital consumption? How can we fund this? What is the peak funding? What is the credit risk on the counterparty? Do we have any foreign exchange risk on it? I think for example, overproduction of a UK or NL or France entity which is shooting a production in Canada for example, with spending Canadian dollar, very simple example. All these things can happen in media and that's basically production by production or entity by entity. So these are just a few of the interesting touch points with the business. As you see in treasury, in a media production company, what's next is that the company has quite an international footprint. As you can see, we're in over 20 countries. And if you operate in 20 countries by nature you will have different kind of challenges in each of them. So if you do a production in Brazil, it has a different dynamic than you do it in continental Europe or in the UK or in Australia for example. So that's interesting and that that's driving how you want to organize. But also what kind of treasury considerations do you have for each situation? So that's the international footprint. Then of course what's interesting is how you're organized. So management wise, but also shareholder wise. It's no surprise that if there's a growth strateg with one strategic partner and one private Equity partner that's giving some dynamics at all in a bad way. But the company is having a growth strategy. Also has a lot of depth on its books. Also had to do with history, but also with the strategy. And yet that needs to be serviced. Comes with a capital structure. Capital structure comes with a certain rating. And a rating has an impact on what kind of things you can finance out of your own working capital, or whether you need to apply some structured financing or you need to have very tight working capital management. And in Endermushine, we actually do a little bit of everything there. So that's a very dynamic treasury setup, I have to say. So for us, when we joined, we saw a company with a high leverage, with some treasury challenges. Nothing else than any other Treasury, I would say. But we also saw great momentum because the Endemo and Shine business were previously separate businesses. They merged and was still in the middle of optimization. Newly found company. And that's great to be part of.

We spoke about this before and you know, one of the key things was, as you say, that sort of that leverage situation. And it wasn't lazy cash, but there was a lot of stuff you sort of were looking at that we want the visibility of liquidity. You want to run up cash because you've got such a massive 78 territories, you know, globally, massive challenge. And I know that you guys have won awards, you know, congratulations, allied with, you know, you've, you've really optimized a lot of that and worked with different partners. And we talked before about Albert, who we know who's your boss, so gone very well. And I know Albert for many years. Some of the things that you did to sort of without getting too much into the techie project detail. But how did you go through that project? Again, we've got people listening today who'll be in a similar situation. How did you define what you wanted to get and how did you then make that happen?

Yeah, very briefly, again there's a link to the business. I joined the company in early, early 2017 and what we saw there is that there was a lot of investment potential in the business. And so we talked about the difference between scripted and non scripted productions. What we saw at that time was a demand for a step up in terms of scripted productions. The difficulty with scripted productions are not really a difficulty, more of a challenge or an implication is that you have a longer investment cycle. So if you do a TV show, you typically you have to format, you bring in the people, you shoot the production, it's being broadcasted on tv, the broadcaster collects its revenues from its advertisements and we got paid. So that's a very short cycle in scripted. It's a bit different there. You have a script at first and then you need to find locations, you need to hire people, you have to shoot the productions. If it's a series, then there is multiple episodes, etc. And then you usually get paid in the end. What has changed in the media market is that media is not always refunded anymore by broadcasters and clients, especially with players like the faanx, which we call Facebook, Amazon or we have to say streamers nowadays actually they invest a lot in content, so that's a very good thing for us. But they also rely on the production companies to get those productions financed. And that's, I think where treasury came in in Animal Shine as well. And together with the business and making good contracts with your, with your clients financing is our cup of tea. So we can help out there. And that's also what we saw so early 2017. We saw with a couple of observations. First of all, as Animal Shine Group, we are a relatively decentralized business with a lot of autonomy for our operating companies and our labels, which is good to fuel the whole creative cycle. But it also comes with some treasury challenges and that has to do with scattered landscape and for example banking scattered landscape in terms of systems, etc. Yet at the same time a requirement from the business to invest in working capital. Because there was a lot of potential for Animal Shine Group to sell its productions. But obviously you need to finance those and I think that's where the treasury traditionally helped out in Animal Shine Group. So for example, we did something which was already live when I joined Receivable Securitization Facility, because what do we have? We have well rated clients with large receivables which are certain only the passage of time determines the payment, basically. So it's easier to finance for a bank than they would have to fund their own balance sheet. So that's one example, but that was already ongoing when we joined. Another observation we had was that there was a lot of demand for cash from the business, but at the same time we had the cash on the balance sheet, but we just couldn't touch it due to our setup. And yeah, that was an interesting one. So with a triple C rating at that time, you cannot easily go to a bank and say, hey guys, can you give me another 50 million or 100 million? And because I want to invest in my business, they say, well, maybe next time. But on the other Hand. We saw the cash on our balance sheet, but due to the setup, we couldn't always make it available to that business. Where we wanted to be our first priority was visibility and liquidity. When we started our project, as we call it, we started with the idea, what if we can make the cash which is on our balance sheet obviously available to the business and basically source our own working capital from there. So that's how we started. And we needed a couple of attributes for that. So we considered a lot of things. One of the things we obviously consider in a situation like that, that let's rationalize our banking landscape and our bank account structure, that's all makes total sense. We had a restriction which was called time. We needed to invest in the business immediately. First of all, there was opportunity, but also we have our targets and our debt servicing targets, of course. So you have to maintain your EBITDA levels in order to be compliant. We have to pay the bills, we have to pay the interest. So that means you have to generate the cash. And we generate cash by doing business. And in order to do that business, there was a request to do more working capital investments and the immediate bank account reconciliation or the immediate bank rationalization requirement was off the table as top priority. Something which we are still doing today. We're three years down the road and we're still optimizing our landscape and still closing down bank accounts and consolidating the banking landscape, etc. But it wasn't the solution at the time. So what we did instead is we told our OPCOs, okay guys, this is a challenge, this is a requirement also from yourselves. And we think that we can unlock funds and put them into the business if we get access to the cash which is still on the balance sheet. And this is the way to do it. So what we did is we opted for a new treasury management system. Now that we had a bad system before, but it was a bit outdated in a way. So we did a new selection for treasury management system. But at the same time we opted for a global bank connectivity and started the whole onboarding at the same time. So where normally you would have the projects separated and first you do your treasury management system and then you do your bank connectivity. In our case, we implemented Swift and then you start onboarding all of your banks individually. We basically did it in one go. At least we tried to do and see, okay, let's see where we end. Let's go for it. So we brought in some, some additional resources through Flu Consultant. By the time our team Also has grown a little bit. So I had my hands free to work on the project, for example, so I could really be hands on, yet at the same time remain strategic. See, okay, where do we want to be in one, two and five years maybe, but heavily involved in the project. And in the end that worked out very well. So our treasury management system, the core setup was done in I think two or three months or so. Then we had our products, which we had in the previous treasury system, we had them migrated. So that was very successful. So we could let go of the old setup and there was treasury continuity in that sense. Also the Swift onboarding went smoothly. I have to say. I think Swift at that time made a very good investment in digitizing the whole onboarding process, which makes it smoother than expected. Also that was up and running over summer in 2017. And I think by the end of Q3, maybe October of 2017, I think we also had visibility on a daily basis in a fully automated way, over 80 to 90% of our bank accounts globally. And that's a lot if you, if you think about the bank account structure in Animal Shine Group, we have several hundreds of bank accounts. And at the time I think we had dealings with 40 to 50 accounts Individual banks globally. Not all with a couple of hundreds accounts, of course, but still a lot. So that really helped. And from visibility you can then engage with your business and follow up on excess cash and shortfalls. And you see your shortfalls coming up earlier, you see your excess cash building up. Treasury within operating companies is usually concentrated with finance people who do more than only Treasury. So they may not have the immediately the daily cash focus like treasury and cash people. So you can really engage and follow up together with your business. Hey, I see some cash there. Do you really need it today? Yeah, I need it back next week. Okay, fine, send it to us and you have it back next week. So it was basically a combination of had the right strategy, which was fit for purpose for the organization at that time. The mandate from our management to make some investments, some small investments in team and in technology, but it was also updating the whole policy framework and the setup and the way of working. And that has had to be done in a very non disruptive way because we also at the same time had a business to manage. We say we stopped the business for two months to do the treasury thingies and then after two months you can do business again. And then we basically would have placed ourselves out of this. And yeah, I have to say that landed very well And I think in the end that was also one of the reasons that we won that award with the team back in 2018.

Talking there about the team, Dave, you know, just explain for the again the listeners structure this because I know that you we mentioned Albert there and he's, you know, he's a great treasury guy. No, great treasury professional. And you said very much, you look to him and got a lot of coaching and everything else. You know, looking at the shape of the team, how do you see it sort of developing and you know, how do you guys run your Treasury?

Our size has ranged from eight individuals at the peak moment in court treasury to four now that's including Albert who actually besides treasury he has always been a famous treasurer but I think he'll be Treasury. So he's running in Animal Shine Group, Treasury Tax, insurance and investor relations. And so if we include all those teams we're still with seven people including Albert, covering a wide range of activities. So insurance and investor relations and tax course. And on the treasury side we do everything which ranges from day to day cash management but also still the execution of our treasury roadmap which is a bit more strategic of nature. We're transforming the way we do cash forecasting. We're trying to help the business in deal making. If it comes to investment analysis, we do local financing. So also corporate finance is an important part of our job. Like I said, the team of five is an experienced team. We have one person in the team who has been a wow in Animal Shine, who is our cash manager, who's basically a champion in jobkeeping doing the day to day cash management is the number one service person towards our operating companies and does a great job there. Then we have somebody who's senior treasury manager who is involved in the whole technical rollout of what we're doing in treasury and so the technical rollout of the treasury system but also at the same time for example running our receivable securitization facility and very much focused on the technical side, automation, efficiencies, etc. Not only within treasury but also trying to make that improvement throughout group finance but also in the operating companies. Then we have a Treasury analyst who runs our operational cash flow forecasting procedure. We have a weekly direct cash flow forecast which runs out for 13 weeks from now every time. So basically rolling 30 weeks cash flow forecast that we're trying to migrate into the treasury management system and basically also beyond the 30 weeks period that would get even a deeper visibility on how our productions are doing and what our investment Cycles are and what have you. And also making the connection between the actual movements, simple words. We collect our daily statements which show movements, but at the same time we have to have a good cash flow forecast. And at the end of the day the two are connected. So if you have a forecasted item which is actualized, then we would like to have our forecast updated automatically. That's a bit of the holy grail.

That's the future.

That's the future. And we have some nice live examples there. And we're rolling out to the rest of the company as 30 to 40% of the business is already live. The remaining parts will be, will be live in a couple of months from now. We have that live in a very short time frame. And that's also the time when we can let go of the existing way of cash flow forecasting. And we have our analysts also joining the technical rollout and assist in setting up entities and making adjustments and translating the inputs from the operating companies into treasury management system, importable files, those kind of things, really supporting everyone out there in the team. And then I have myself and I'm basically a bit of the backup of everyone. I'm heavily involved in the rollout of the forecast and the treasury management system which we're trying to roll out at the moment globally with all operating company finance teams being active users on that same system. So that's one thing I do and obviously I deputize for Albert and anything which, which he has to drop or needs support in for the rest. I'm the contact point for the auditor or for external banks where we do business of bank relationship management. On the other hand, with a decentralized organization, you also have operating company relationship management. And in the end they are our most important asset. And given the fact that the business is managed locally, we should have a good contact there. Yeah, that's a bit how we do.

We're not too long before the end of the show, but, you know, you're giving a great comprehensive explanation of all of the bits and how you operate and stuff. But, you know, looking at yourself and looking at the future of treasury, you know, we talked again for sure about, you know, all these different technologies and you know, you being a sort of a filter for them, that's the right way. But looking at the future of yourself and the group, what do you see as the most exciting things coming through? What's the future, do you think, for treasury, for Treasury?

Well, to be honest, I think we are well positioned as treasury, although we're not very Visible in a lot of organizations. And the way and the treasury is being operated in different companies, it might differ from company to company on what the role of treasury is. I think in the end Moshe situation we are a very diverse and broadly oriented group treasury. Whereas in another company it might be focused only on the corporate finance and advisory side of things. Another company might be very day to day cash operations only. And that's what I like about the profession. It can be very diverse. Although we are a specialization, what I do see as a development which is coming up, we will be more digital and there will be more automation. So anything which can be automated should be automated. I always say, although you will always need people to interpret results and actually drive the automation. So you have to make sure that you don't automate the things which are not to automate or difficult to automate or useless to automate to avoid spending resources where they could have been invested differently. So treasury will become more digital, more automated. But it also is interesting I think because through that we as trade heroes are becoming more and more strategic in the whole finance space. And that's what I see in more companies happening. And so we get, we are in the center of finance and so we are in touch with obviously the cfo, but also the other finance departments like accounting and reporting, tax, business control, everything is important for treasurers. And I think treasury is becoming more important for all the other disciplines as well. Well, but also we're the linking pin to the outside world and the capital markets. For example, we're the ones maintaining the relations with our investors, not necessarily with our shareholders because that's more managed control. The banks and institutional investors are contact points. We know how auditors think, so we know how to serve or bridge the gap between daily treasury operations and the role of the auditor. So I see treasury profession becoming more and more strategic and well placed to translate from the business to the outside world and the other way around. So what as an investor, what do I expect from a business and can I translate that into my business and subsequently see how we can manage the way we do business to what investors are expecting. So that's becoming more and more interesting. And yeah, for that we, I think we discussed it before, but also for that I think in the future you will see more and more treasury treasury people moving into other finance roles which can be specific like, like tax or, or industrial relations. And you see a lot of combinations already popping up in the market with having a tax direct expanding to treasury or the other way around or investor Relations like, like Albert also does. But I also think you will see more treasurers moving into CFO roles at some point.

And Dave, when we look, you know, again this is sort of the wrap up to today's show because you know, you've given great comprehensive background and things like that but you, you looking back at yourself and you know, someone says do you know what great role, you know, because again you've got this really great in depth deputy treasurer position and you long may it continue but someone looks back at your profile says do you know what? There's a lot of things that I'm, I'm interested in and doing similar work. What are the sort of tips you would give someone if for their treasury careers or you alluded to it there that you know, treasury is really becoming a hub for a lot of the other activities. But you know, what are the key tips you would give to treasury professionals listening today saying right, this is what you need to do with your career?

Yeah, well what, what I found interesting so far is the variety of things I did. One of the tips I would give to people just joining the profession is get your education right. What, what I think of treasury looking back at my own college education and university, I think treasury is relatively uncovered there. But you see more and more courses and, and actually through education programs where you can gain that theoretical framework. That's one thing worthwhile mentioning for me. It's not the only thing which is leading when, when recruiting for. It's a nice decent theoretical basis which you do not necessarily get through regular university life. Moreover, what I found interesting for myself is working in different kind of organizations, sort of working across different sectors, working across different shareholder situations, working with different kind of capital structures and different kind of management styles, but also the whole international footprint personnel for example being very relatively domestic and Europe focused whereas and the Moshein group and her were more globally focused and each of those situations gives different dynamics. That's something which has brought me a lot. Another thing is try to gain a lot of experience on the job. So if you're asked to join a project group on something which is maybe outside your comfort zone within the same treasury space, just do it because it's good for your development and for the recruiter this is booster but it's really worthwhile doing that so you can expand your knowledge within the treasury base. And yeah, ultimately I think what's also important is a combination of having that real set of hard skills but also the soft skills because as a treasurer you have to be flexible. You have to be. I, as always, I use the word, let's say a style flexible, as in a negotiation with an external party, you might need a different approach than when you speak to an investor or went to your auditor or your internal team or your operating company. And that's what I call the so called soft skills. I think those are also very important.

Dave, great chat. You know, sort of some weeks we sort of deep dive into different issues or different areas. I think with that it was much more of a sort of an explanation of what you guys do as a sort of global production group and how your treasury structures. I think it actually was sort of a bit of a different show actually, which I really enjoy because it was sort of different about how your ethos and your attitude to Treasury. So, you know, it was, it was valuable because I think, you know, other people. Oh, that's the way they structure. Oh, that's the way. So it's really nice, you know, to sort of get an understanding for you guys. I'm sure we'll be talking further and we'll have, you know, some nice conversations with Dave and we'll see him at a few of the conferences and we'll catch up and things like that. Any final words from you? You know, just for the audience and what you think, you know, treasury is about for you, you.

No, I think we, we covered a lot of things already. I think we can talk for, for hours about the profession and everything which is linked to it. But I hope everyone enjoyed the show. Thanks for your time and your dedication to this podcast. I think it's very interesting for us as a community to further collaborate and learn from each other, although time is limited for everyone. Obviously we have our conferences and our get togethers and dinners and what have you, but we're a small profession and I think think we can learn it a lot from each other. And a series of podcasts like these only help and are very convenient to listen on the couch when you, you lose a battle over the remote control for the tv, for example, after work or whatever. So it's very convenient. Keep it going.

I would say it's my pleasure to bring to life your stories. So thank you, sir. A bit of a, bit of a different one this week. It was quite nice. It was sort of just a. No. Thanks for your time, Dave. You've been an absolute star.

Thank you, Mike.

Thank you, sir.