Treasury Market Review of UK, Europe and the USA

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate, Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show Notes. And now let's get on with the show. So, welcome to this week's show. Bit of a different one this week. We're mixing up a bit. We've been asked quite a lot by different clients, candidates, what's the state of the market, what's happening with salaries, what's happening with this. But we get asked these questions in the UK when we cover there, we get asked across Europe and we get asked across the us. So what I'm going to do is we got a combined show where it features myself talking to Craig about the UK market. So you can just skip past that if you don't want to listen to it, but he's very good. And then we come on to Katie about the European market and then I have a catch up with Joe Grabowski who leaves our efforts in the US now, rather than make you jump around or jump through the podcast, I've actually split them up a bit for you. So we've got one combined one, so you might want to listen to all of it. Fantastic. You get to hear about all the different markets. However, if you decide. Actually, I only want to hear the US episode. Well, we've done that for you. You've got the US one, it's going to be a separate podcast. You then got a separate European one, you've got a separate UK one. So we' got four, if you like, all prepared, one as a compilation and then three separate ones. The UK with Craig, US with Joe Grabowski and Europe with Katie. So tune into any other one. Feel free to listen to all of them, they're great. Yeah, it's us as well. All right, thanks very much and let's get on with the show. So we're talking about the outlook for 2024. I've got the lovely Craig Perkins. We will talk to Katie later in the show. So, Craig heads up our UK division. Katie leads on Europe and I focus more on the senior level and the us. That's where I'm spending a lot of my time. But Craig is all in on the UK. We've got some great events coming up in 2024, we've got one in April and we've got one later on in the year. A couple, actually, one in June and one in November. So, looking forward to seeing lots of treasury professionals. But before then, Craig, can you maybe talk about what the state of the UK treasury market is? Are there shortages? Where are you seeing the. The challenges, if you like?

Yeah, thanks, Mike. There's definitely been quite a substantial noticeable ramp up, quite a good time in the market in terms of a lot of internal teams making the most of the speculation of people thinking what might be out there for me. So you do see a lot of that. And especially we talk around the primary analysts both praise we manage the level of the market. There has been a decent amount of things out there. I'd almost go as far as to say the amount of opportunity probably outweighs their need. That shortage of talent, where actually the amount of talent in the market, the shortage is due to the amount of opportunity that is is on the market at the moment. If it has stronger some of the more prominent times of the year, but definitely in terms of the need for specific skills, it does bed like that kind of thought. As Mike.

So, Craig, are there any particular areas which are in highest demand or the most difficult to recruit? What are you seeing again from the uk?

What I would say on that note is that and something I did find going through most of Q4 of last year as well, is the ongoing demand for qualified treasury accountants. I can quite comfortably say, following a quite a good number of conversations in our market and introductions to new people, even outside of our. Outside of our network. But just because you've got really good treasury accounts or treasury analysts out there who are becoming qualified, acca, sema, qualified, the general consensus is that some of these people who have even gone through these qualifications don't really necessarily want to get into treasury accounting. They want to utilize those skills to do other, more operational things in Treasury. And I think that's been one of the biggest challenges I found. And it's not a problem. I mean, to want a broader experience is fantastic, but it's certainly one thing that's proved more of a challenge, that people are wanting broader remits now, but.

If they do Want to go into sort of that middle office, treasury accounting role, elevated salaries. A good, good area to go to springboard your career, do you think?

I would say so. And absolutely making it very clear, if you've become a qualified, become fully qualified accountant within your current company and they're not going to be able to utilize your full, your new full skill set, let's say, or less than you can, then you're going to be looking externally for those opportunities and, and they're, and they're going to pay well. About a number of conversations with clients and pledging new clients recently, even in January, where they told me about that their analysts and their team have recently become qualified or very close or close to becoming from last year and when they might be coming this year. And I've sat down with them and gone, okay, you want to have that pay review booked it when that's going to, when that's going to line up. I don't mean that in a jest at all.

Again, if you are more qualified. I do sometimes, particularly when we come onto education qualifies in the uk and that's an interesting one because sometimes when we're talking a bit further in the conversation, but when people get a Treasury qualification, for instance, they then go back to their bosses, say, look, I'm more qualified, I'm, I'm more useful to you. And they said, yeah, but we paid for that qualification. And they say, yeah, but now I'm in higher demand, do I get a pay rise? And sometimes they're like, yeah, I'll talk to you about it. 612 months. Whoa, hang on. That's when often I know that we get these. Sometimes the lists come out, say, yeah, they've qualified, they're qualified. And a lot of the time, unless there's recognition of that internally that people will approach us on that part. Educational qualifications in the uk, Katie and I talked about it. In Europe it's less prevalent that they want a formal education degree level and things like that. That's one of the things they want. And then maybe looking at treasury qualifications in the us, there's the ctp. I know in the uk, it's slightly different, isn't it, that the act with their qualifications. Do you find that yourself? Everyone's saying you must have a qualification.

That's a good segue into that actually, Mike, and yes, I would. You do tend to find at the more not entry level, but at the kind of the most beginning of that journey to the more mid level of someone's treasury career, it is it is prominent terms of an expectation, I would say not so much in terms of needing to be a qualified accountant, unless you're going down that kind of route. And like I said to you, backtracking slightly, even if you've got those accounting qualifications, I wouldn't be assuming those people want to go into that part of it of Treasury. They want to have a bit more broadness. We'll talk about that a bit later. In terms of being one of the main reasons people are looking to. Looking to make that shift over to something else. But the act is definitely prominent at that. At the more entry level, mid level of the market. Certainly if you can be through your years and your tenure qualified for experience, it's not as relevant. It's always going to be highlighted on a job description, it always will be. That's not going to change. But certainly the need for it. If you've got good experience and you've got a good narrative and you can talk through that experience, you can give really great examples of projects, you've been involved in it. It's not as required, but certainly if you. The question will be asked. And I can see every single time what. Why have you not done this? Or have you considered this? Because also they are thinking one of the best ways we're going to retain. And this will come nothing later, Mike, we're going to retain. This talent is going to offer stunning support. This person's got no interest in doing it. Then it's. It's a knock to the belt they can't use.

Yeah, exactly. And. And actually flipping around the question. So that's a question to a candidate, if you like, about, are you going to study? Have you got qualified? And things like that. The flip side, which we've seen is about candidates asking clients about their working style practices. And obviously hybrid. Now, again covering Europe, Katie said it was early adopters. I think they were actually doing it pre pandemic and things us went all the way through and back and then we've come to five days a week sometimes and that's most negative effect on short list, if you like. I've had a couple of clients. Oh, we're five days a week in the office. We go, look, only one in 20 people wants to be in the office, took five days a week. So they've actually had to move to that hybrid or just literally not be able to recruit people. Is that similar for the uk, different approach. What are you seeing for the UK with maybe candidates? Is it. Are they asking that as soon as they Pick up the phone or what's the situation?

I would say Mike, about we're about two, three years in now, aren't we? To when all these changes really took effect. Most, the vast majority of companies, a whole and certain Treasury Department have settled in now. They've embedded in these new ways of working, whether that be through company policies or it's at the line manager spectrum, which is still quite a common thing. So that doesn't necessarily give certainty if someone's moving into a new role and people want that certainty. I would actually say in the uk, one thing I have noticed, and this has been all the way through December and January, speaking to lots of clients and companies in the market, in the corporate space, is that it's actually been quite industry specific. We look at companies where you've got heavy amounts of workforces within engineering or logistics, where a lot of the workforce can't work remote. So there's that uniformity approach and they want to have, yes, they want to be collaborative but they're also thinking, well most of our workforce can't be remote. So actually we're going to try and make it, you know, fair across the field. And so those companies, you know, are using that as their narrative but they know the challenges that's going to present them because the majority of people, and the London average as an example is two to three days a week in the office. Some companies in your Oxford, Cambridge area that are being even more flexible to encourage people, you know, into those areas. So we're seeing that. But one of the most important things I would note around companies employees embracing hybrid is to understand that a lot of great, a lot of great talent out there have, have adapted their lifestyle. I've had a number of conversations this week with really senior professionals in the market where you know what, during COVID they bought a dog or they started a family and they've got a young family. So actually when they're doing like preschool drop offs or they're all, there's adaptation and, and those people are going to be off the market, those companies, and they do accept that, they do know that they're fishing in a smaller pool and we, we ask that we partner with them to tackle those challenges. But there's definitely going to be a lot more options to you because most people are looking for what they're at now, you know, with the current employees. And a lot of people look in the market when their companies make blanket judgments around the working, the working situation. It's almost like a company doing an office relocation if you tell everyone all of a sudden you're coming in most of the week, it has the same impact.

And from that you and I have talked very much about salaries. We run our salary survey and everything else. And I know that I've sent you, for instance, just past couple of days, the most recent snapshot of why people are wanting to be in a job. And we're talking about we do a salary survey and everyone said, oh, so it's about the salary then? And actually it's not. And it talks about that hybrid working and all the other things. And just looking at that, Craig, what are the. Is it the same when it seems to be the same across the piece, doesn't it?

Yeah. We were talking around how these companies are retaining that talent in salary is one of the main reasons for people to make a move, I think it would be fair to say don't look to move for the same or less money unless they. They really have to. That's situational. But for the vast majority of people they are looking for that step up, but it's balanced out with that way of working.

And we talked there, Craig, a bit about hybrid being back in the office and some of those things. But what are the other key factors? Retaining treasury talent? Because beyond salaries, which we've. We do our salary survey and everything else, we found it's not like that as well. And I know with the particularly the UK portion, you were the one that originally said, Mike, can we ask a question about why people are happy or unhappy in their roles? What have you found?

Yes, absolutely. It's pretty important to know that piece, funny enough, the most prominent one, and this happens on. On multiple times a day we're having phone calls or even with the salary survey result, it's very much those that relationship with your. Your direct line manager is very important. People stick around in. In jobs largely down to. Even if they don't feel like they're necessarily getting market rate because actually they really value the partnership and the approach to work. So that good kind of work life balance the relationship you have with your line manager, with your boss, you're having that friendly supportive team around you and the broadness of your role. If you're pigeonholed into what you're doing and that that's those in the salary survey might the result, I'm pretty confident all come above the salary you're getting paid.

Okay. And then we don't want to take too much time with the listeners and things like that, but overview of the outlook, if you like for 2024. What are you seeing from the UK market? We, Katie and I talk about Europe and us later on in the show. But what are you seeing from the uk?

Yeah, I think in the UK market this year, if it was off the back end of the last quarter, last year and it carries on together as it is, there's going to be a good amount of opportunity out there and so you're going to have the opportunity to be able to make good, informed decisions. And I think one thing is really important to bear in mind and this is where we mentioning myself here and mentioning what we do, it's important to note that when you look at opportunities out there that might be direct with companies, it's important to realise that your narrative and the story and your why isn't something that shows on your CV profile and to be able to have an ability where someone can articulate that for you. Because if you upload your profile with all these opportunities that might be on the market, yes, you might get a meeting but you don't really understand if it's the quite the place you would want to work to understand the culture beforehand. Because someone might describe the culture of a company or on a job description but yeah, you're taking at face value what that team will look like, how it's going to structure out and is it going to improve upon what you're offer, what you're oil on at now the outlook is going to look positive. I think it's important that people make good information, informed decisions and look, look for guidance and support. We give out free advice. We're very happy to do that on all sides of the coin, whether it's through a candidate or a client and we want to advise on that piece and I think embracing that part where you know, having someone else be able to explain your why you've been enroll rather than just taking a CV is, is going to be. It's gonna be very important this year.

Yeah. And I think actually you've got the experience we've got as a firm, 25 plus years experience. It's not a sales pitch, it's more just a statement of fact. Some of our competitors, if you like, they've lost their treasury teams or their treasury teams have headed off to across into Europe and everything else, whereas we're still here. You're covering the uk, I'm covering the world, if you like. And a lot more US case is here for Europe. It means that you've got three incredible consultants. I don't pick us up on the Podcast that much. But the fact is, if you want advice, call us. If you're looking to recruit, call us. But Craig, thank you very much. Any closing words for the UK bar what I said and we're going to move on then I'm going to talk to Katie a bit more.

Just, just one final point, actually. This is based on a call I had very recently with someone really great in the market was telling me they'd applied for a job they're really interested in and directly, which was absolutely fantastic. And I said, no, hopefully you'll hear back. But they hadn't heard back and it had been about two weeks. But I actually said to them, can I just ask you why it is that opportunity was. What was it about that was really right, so I can help you with other things we might have on the go come up in the future. And again, and this person gave me a great. Why A really good reason I said to them the same about it is that they don't know that and it's just a shame that there wasn't an opportunity to better tell them. Not just me, but someone better tell them on their behalf. And that's our unique position with our clients and even if we're not currently working with, with these companies, to be able to give someone the narrative as to why, because otherwise they're taking your profile at face value and we can add that value. Right. We want to be a partner, we want to make sure it's the right thing. And if I think someone will apply for something and I've done this recently, I don't think it's the right fit for them. I'll be very honest. I'll tell them. Yeah, if you're going into a rolling, right, your weight class, I'll tell you, great stuff.

Thanks, Craig. We're going to move on to Katie. Thank you very much.

Cool, thank you, Mike.

Obviously, a lot of people are talking to us about the factors driving shortage of treasury talent, how it varies between regions and I know that. So I'm joined here by Kitty. You, in a way have lots of people have been talking to you since 2024 and end of 2023 about how, you know, treasury talent shortages are there them. Is that true, is it false? What is there? What are you seeing in the European market in particular?

What I found across Europe. Look at treasury analysts and treasury managers, the demand versus not, not aligned at all. A lot of demand for this level. But when it comes to the quality of those candidates and the level of availability of those high calibre candidates, it's just not there. And I think one of the things to mention here is that historically candidates have always been more operational at this, at both of these levels and now the demand shifted slightly. Companies want to have those technical skill sets and that operational side. They also want to have the strategic mindset and that's really presented some problems when it comes to recruiting talent.

Is that because. Sorry, is that because treasurers and senior treasurer haven't trained those treasury analysts and managers for that step up, do you think?

I think that could be part of it, but I think also it's just the way that the corporates are shifting their focus and the trends that are in the treasury market, though I don't need to tell people that the whole implementation of a system, they want people that can project manage that. And before they, they didn't have that, that need. And a lot of people are having that shift really. And I think what we've also seen is there has been a big focus across Europe on looking at the structures and the departments as a whole within treasury and really moving to more modern structures, more international structures and more diverse teams. There's a big focus on diverse teams and also that can present.

When you're recruiting, you're trying to recruit a diverse team in a talent short market or challenge market and then you're saying, we want to also have him implement diversity as well. When, for instance, number of ladies have left, the females have left the workplace, if they're going off to have children then coming back, people have got to make accommodation, help them, haven't they?

Yeah, they have. And I think. I think the focuses have definitely shifted and I do think that because they are. Because companies are looking at getting those basics right, the technology and various different things like that. They are growing the teams at more analyst and manager levels and people just aren't. There just aren't enough around there, around that level. And on top of that, that's also really inflating salaries at these two levels as well, because everybody's fighting for the really strong candidates. And so they've got the pick of the corporates and they know that they can pretty much get paid a lot more than perhaps their experience level is worthy of.

Yeah, because they're in. They can leverage that a little bit. And I actually both you and I have talked, I was talking recently to a global treasure in the Netherlands, global treasurer in Switzerland, and one of the things that came out from the conversation was they are now being. It's one of the questions when both Internally, when they're moving staff around, they've returned from Pandemic and now there's flexible working, which is on there, and everyone talks about it. But the key thing is, I was interviewed on another podcast myself and I said, remote is dead in Treasury. They wanted a headline. It was a headline because it's true. The fact is, treasury by its very nature is collaborative. And then when I brought this up with both these global treasurers, they both said, yeah, we don't work remotely. There were a number of treasurers for treasury professionals. For instance, in one of their organizations. They moved there. They integrated. Rather, they had two treasury centers in the same country. In the Netherlands, they brought them together in one headquarters. And some of the staff there, oh, we want to work remotely. We can just do this. And he said, if you're just task focused and you just want to get stuff done and you don't want to be part of the team, we're very happy. Okay. To let you go. Oh, not so happy. Yes, we are a team and there is. And they're not saying you. And again, one of the things that he was keen to point out, it wasn't like, you have to be in. It was more, we have to. We work as a team, we work collaboratively. We work like that. And that's how treasury blends itself. I don't want to just make this all about hybrid, but I think that's one of the issues that there has to be. There is still a few treasury centers in and across Europe I've seen, and maybe I'll get it back from you, Katie, that they're saying, oh, we do want to be pushing back more into the office. More into the office. It's like, why, you know, we prove we don't need to. So, you know, what are your thoughts there?

One of my questions about that, because I know there's pockets in the States where it's a lot more common and in the UK that people to go in the office sort of five times, five times a week. I think in Europe, it's more of minority rather than a majority to ask for more than two or three days in the office. And I think that's because Europe has always been slightly further forward in terms of flexible working than other regions. Sorry, than other markets. I do think, though, we are seeing a slight shift where it's becoming more three days in the office. But actually people do want that blend. And I think the other thing in Europe is, and I've seen it with a couple of clients where their head Offices are just slightly out of sort of key towns and I think if they open up and are flexible with their hybrid working, it's opens up the pool of candidates even more. So actually when we are looking for candidates that have the technical and the soft skills, but also that strategic mindset, it just gives us a little bit more scope to be able to find those, those top candidates.

And one of the other things that we were quiz about retention and salaries, incentives and and you and I have talked a lot about this and you we were just looking at so some of the figures that we do, our global salary survey. We're just about to run the figures again for 2024 and looking at salaries. But our salary survey just doesn't do salaries. It also looks at the market and some of the feedback from people. Now one of the key things, which is amazing actually is when you actually look at it and I've done this with none. I was talking to a group of treasurers back in Paris before Christmas and I was talking to them and we're talking about incentives, salaries and everything else. And you, I know you and I have discussed this, that in actual fact it's not about the money. We can say show us the money. It's not actually about the salary. When I was talking to that group of treasurers I said and this covers actually globally, but particularly focuses on Europe, which we'll come back to you Katie, about that. But when people have said is it about the salary? What makes people happy? And actually I was just looking at some of the, the factors. Salary out of our list is fifth. Fifth out of. Well, we looked at 10 factors, it's fifth. So in actual fact it's about being a good boss or manager of your team. It's about good work life balance. Never more so nowadays that you look at hybrid and everything else having a friendly, supportive team. So again, getting back as a team and then the variety of work and then fifth came competitive salary. This was about your happiness factors, what makes you happy. I've quoted that to a number of treasurers before and they said how do I keep my team? So go and ask them. Sit down and ask those four simple questions. Blend them if you want. But say how are you finding me as a boss? Am I giving you the right work life balance? How are you finding the team? Are we giving you enough variety in the work we're giving you? And with that 80% of your levers don't leave. You know, that's the chief reason. And if you're doing that and Then the flip side and again more the unhappy crew and people like that. Salary was an issue, but it was much further down. It was about career progression and we incentivizing you, we developing you, your achievements. What am I like? Work, life, balance. And again salary was. Salary was right in the mix, but much further down. Are you getting that feedback from European treasury professionals, Katie?

I think just picking up on what I've mentioned before, I think when it comes to more of the analyst level in particular, they are more focused on salary and not so much on the lifestyle, what I would call lifestyle benefits. I think the more senior you go, it definitely what I've noticed with a lot of candidates I'm speaking to is it's salary isn't the main driver for them, it is around what's the culture like, what is, what's the person that I'm going to be reporting to like, what's their leadership style, what retention incentives are there, what training and development is there. So it's more those kind of things rather than just to focus on. Okay, what's the salary and what's the bonus?

Brilliant. Other things that we're looking at. I'm just looking at some of the notes that you and I have made before this catch up. If you like education, training, are you seeing that much about that? People saying in Europe, oh, you must have a formal education, formal qualification in treasury or not so much?

No. I know Craig and I have spoken about this quite a bit because it's very different in the uk, which he will talk about, but that obviously a lot of people want to have degree level within the field which relates to treasury. But. But actually the focus for me has never really been on that education or being a member of an association or anything like that. It's, it's a nice to have, but it's not a must have when I'm looking.

Yeah, okay. And then predictions for the outlook as we look across the medium to long term, the rest of 2024 and maybe a bit further. Was actually asked to do 10 year predictions, but I can barely remember past the end of my nose. Really. What are you thinking is coming along for yourself in Europe?

The market will stay as busy as it has been, probably a little bit busier when people are looking at the structures of their teams. I do think hybrid working will still remain and that isn't going to change. I think there will be a lot of focus. I think there's a bigger gap in skill set between the manager level right the way through to treasurer level. So I think there will be a focus on retention incentives for that sort of really senior position. I think also because of hybrid staying and because of the skill set, strategic skill set gap, I think there will be more focus internally leaders to really be able to lead effectively and upskill their current teams. Really?

Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you very much for your predictions on Europe. Thanks very much for your time. You've already heard from the wonderful Cray talking about the UK market. Then we went on to Katie talking about Europe. And now you might want to head over to YouTube. Not sure you will, but anyway, because there you've got Joe Grabowski who leads our efforts in the US and myself in high definition hd. Yay. Lucky people. Well, okay, so maybe just listen to us. I don't know. Joe's going to talk us through the current state of the U.S. treasury recruitment market. We'll talk about salaries in a minute. We'll talk about our other plans for 2024. I'll shut up for a second and let Joe talk. So, Joe, talk me through what's going on in the US and what's it like for you?

Yeah, absolutely, Mike, thanks for having me. And again, apologies to the YouTube audience. You got two guys who have faces built for radio that are sitting here talking about treasury, so. But no, it's been good. You know, I've been back in the fold for about a month now, really getting my feedback under me, rekindling a lot of old relationships that, that I had in the space prior to moving over to the crypto space. But then now I'm back. But one thing I've noticed, as much as things have changed, they tend to stay the same. I am, we are definitely seeing an uptick in jobs in the US it seems like every week you have new jobs that are coming, being advertised, coming out for people to apply to. You know, I get a lot of questions just based on people I'm connected with within my network. Hey, what do you know about this job? What do you know about this person? Is this something that I'd want to pursue? It does tend to be a very similar. It follows a similar path to what you'd see across the pond or what you and Craig and Katie have seen. Most of the jobs that you're going to see advertised are at the analyst in the manager level. That's a great thing if you're an analyst or a manager. It's not as much of a great thing if you're looking to hire an analyst or a manager. Very competitive if you're hiring almost an abundance of opportunity. If you are looking at those levels, as you hit director level and above, so your directors, your ats, your treasurers, starting to see small upticks in the amount of opportunities available. I think you had mentioned it in previous podcasts. It's either there's less movement. You know, you're getting toward the top of the hierarchy there, so there has to be movement in order for opportunities to appear at those levels. Now, what that means, if you're looking at those levels, if you are that senior manager looking to jump into a director, or if you are a director AT or treasurer who's looking for a new role, it might take a little bit longer. You know, not as many opportunities out there, very competitive, because everyone is looking for the top seat. So that's if there's anything specific you want me to hit on. But that's generally what I'm saying.

Dion? I'm actually, we were just preparing the results of our latest treasury salary survey, and it totally reflects what you've just said. A number of people have been moving from that sort of senior treasury manager into an AT spot, or maybe deputy treasurer role. We'll come back to titles in a moment. But the key thing was there wasn't really promotion per se, from outside. They weren't bringing in someone. And then, right, we need to hire this person at a more senior level and it's boosted the salary. Instead, you're getting someone moving internally and they're going, well, yeah, we'll give you a 10 uplift. Oh, okay. And you've got to be happy with that. Okay. You know, and people, some people are happy with it, some people aren't, but some people are taking it anyway. They're going, I'm happy for now, not maybe happy for the future. And also people think, well, they don't have to go external and try and use our support or use the dreaded LinkedIn, which Joe and I were talking about earlier, because I recently had an example with a client. They'd been looking, they'd had 80 odd responses and they were like, we. Well, we screened 80 people. Yeah, good luck with that. How many have you employed? How many are you talking to? Well, we're talking to you, aren't we, Mike? I was like, yeah, exactly. Because I say not all of them and they might get lucky, but a lot of the time with them. I said, look, if someone is looking for a job on LinkedIn, particularly in treasury as a specialist area, I find a lot of the time, and I think you'll reflect as well, Joe, that they're looking to exit a bad situation. They're looking to leave where they are. They don't care about your job in the nicest way. They just want to get away from lack of pay, lack of flexibility, a boss that doesn't coach them. Again, we do the salary survey, and it's not about the salary most of the time. It's actually about boss progression, everything else, definitely. And, you know, again, I don't want to. I want to shut up for a second. No, that's what I was just saying to them is that that's what they were seeing. And they said, yeah, actually, you saw some nice people, but they just weren't right for us, or they weren't right for us right now. And I'm like, exactly. That's why. Whereas then. And the first person I thought of actually eventually got the job, but they were like, oh, we want to see some more. So I had 12 people for them. They went through. When they said, yeah, we've got that one right person. And I've known them for 10 years. So it's a career step for them because that's the key thing. I mean, you've seen this and you've battled against it in the US for as many years as I have. What, what are your thoughts in that? And about supply and demand?

Yeah, it's. It's really interesting. So, especially when you, I guess if you break down the hierarchy overall, your analysts and your managers, they're still on the upswing, right? Typically, the reason why they're looking to leave or why they're looking to change jobs, number one, they want to grow. They either want to grow their skill set, they want to grow their compensation, they want to grow their title, they want to grow their responsibilities, they want to grow all of the above. Once you start to hit that director level, people, you know, you've already touched strategy. You've already. You've already done that, especially when you hit the treasurer's seat. Pretty much a lot of the treasurers that I've spoken with are all of a sudden open to director or at levels. They're like, look, I don't care what you call me. I just want to like the work that I do. I want to be paid fairly, and I want to work for a company that I respect. You know, it's. It's really fascinating.

And.

But that also comes down to how you market your role. To your point, it's easy, you know, especially with these positions that are entering the market, it's easy to get lost in the sea. Especially as the longer that your job is just sitting out there. You may have 80 applicants, but you're. Even if you renew that job posting, it's getting lower and lower down the totem pole. People are like, hey, XYZ company has been had this job posted for six months. What the heck is wrong with it? Why haven't they been able to hire? And that's usually where you and I will get a call. And it's like, well, you got to market this a little bit better. You got to understand why your. Why your people. I'm sorry, why your target market would potentially be interested in a role. You have to be able to pitch the growth. You have to be able to pitch like, hey, I'm a treasurer who wants to grow his team. I want to have my lineage spread out into the rest of the treasury market. I don't mind turnover. I'm not afraid of it. I grow my people.

Yeah, well, I think. And you touched on an interesting point there, which crosses into ways of working, I. E. You know, hybrid. I was recently interviewed by Strategic Treasurer on their podcast, and, you know, they said, oh, have you got any highlights or any ideas of ideas for me? And I went, yeah, this Craig Jeffrey, great guy. I said, Craig, remote working is dead. He's like, what? Whoa. Okay. I said, remote working in treasury is dying out is dead. You know, if someone needs a remote job, don't use us. Go to LinkedIn. You'll get it, maybe, and they get hundreds. But the fact is, treasury, by its very nature, is a collaborative discipline. We commented about this in some of the articles you'll find on our website. Treasure recruitment.com, obviously, great writing, but this is bringing it to life here. But joke aside, the. The key thing there is. We're saying treasury is collaborative two to three days a week. With your team. We've got Dana Laidhold. I was just talking to today, treasurer of Nasdaq. She talked about the fact that she has to be quite deliberate about her time. She lives quite a distance from her office, but she's in her office in New York with a lot of her team two to three days a week. And she plans to meet them, not just over zoom, but meeting them for a coffee meeting and talking about challenges they've got. She's got to run that teamwork thing. She's got to make. She's going to make an effort, but she could just be remote. Could she? No, she wouldn't be successful. She talked about that, not me. I mean, you know, this what are your thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, you, you hear about it time and time again, right? The things that used to be able to cover in the break room, all of a sudden maybe a 10 minute conversation there, you're now trying to catch each other on teams or whatever messaging software that you're using or over email. Now all of a sudden you're trying to manage calendars and find time. Just, you spend more time trying to schedule a 15 minute conversation to catch up on something urgent than you do to actually solve the problem. So, yeah, I mean, you're seeing it in the advertisements and what clients are looking to do within the market as well. It shifted well away from remote opportunities. It's not, it's not to say that they aren't out there. I think everyone who's watching this, if you're aware of the market, you know those companies that still have remote opportunities available, they're not going to have a problem recruiting because they also have a pretty good brand that goes along with it. Right. So that poses a different problem for their internal recruiting team. And the fact that you almost have an embarrassment of choices, people who could do the role for you have a couple hundred, maybe a couple thousand applicants in some of some cases. Right. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's the gist of it is you're starting to see it shift away from remote, more toward hybrid, and you still do see some 100% in office. I don't really understand the, you know, it's not for me to make the judgment. I don't understand the logic behind it. It's shown that I'm going to judge.

I'm going to judge.

All right, go ahead. All right, go ahead.

It's like, it is, you just prove that you don't need it. It, like why do you have to. Yes, there might be a week or two here and there when you've got a corporate event. And what I mean by that is a bond issuance or something like that, not, you know, social event, but, you know, basically when you do need to be there, when it's all hands to the pump, when you know an IPO is happening, yes, you might need to be at your desk, but then it calms down and then you can go back to the two days a week in the office. Yeah, but you know, Steve Rosenthal, past guest on the podcast, he talked about being, going to his office sometimes in the city and making sure that, you know, he didn't just go there and close his cubicle door because what's the point of traveling there. They had this planned intentionality to meet each other. And I think that's the key thing, that people should get off of this and that they, you know, if you're going to go in the office, go for a reason, not just because it's there. I think that's what, you know, that's what Covid taught us.

Yeah. And I mean, we both know it firsthand. Relationships are different once they're built face to face, opposed to just over video or over phone or anything like that. And especially if you are an analyst or a manager or if you're looking to advance your career, the only way you're going to be able to do that is, yes, through the work, but also in the relationships. And those relationships, they can be built through technology. Don't get me wrong, it means that much more if you are in the office putting in that FaceTime and you are actually able to ask questions again, not running into the issue with the messaging software, trying to find time on a calendar or anything like that. Just being in the pit with your team, being able to talk, ask questions and get to know each other a little bit better. It's, it's much different being able to work asynchronously that way.

And talking about salaries, I just want to jump into that. We've just published our latest set of results. It's quite an interesting one. A couple of our rivals. Oh, we're going to do a salary survey. I'm like, the great thing for us, we've done ours for like 10 years, but really it's evolved and evolved and now we've got over a thousand people doing it on a constant basis. People say, oh, when do you do it? Every day? Well, yeah, it's an ongoing survey, so we make sure anyone that is part of it is, you know, we have their up to date salary information from less than six months ago. People are like, wow, wow. And it just, we just get them to update it. Click, click. 30 seconds. Done. Now, what are you seeing salaries wise when you're talking to people across the.

U.S. yeah, you know, it's, it's kind of interesting. I don't want to say that it's leveled out, but. But you've had the last couple of years where there have been increases probably making up for not only inflation, but for, I mean, basically is an opportunity to retain your team after Covid. If you, if you were frozen on mirrored increases or bonuses or anything like that. It's typically been made up over the last couple of years. It seems like we may have hit a tipping point. I don't know if that's 100% true. Don't hold me to it. But the common refrain that I'm hearing from a lot of practitioners that I'm speaking with is, hey, this is a different market than what I saw two years ago. These people aren't paying as high. It's almost like you're starting to see a little bit of a shift from an employee market toward an employer market and you're seeing some downward pressure on salaries overall. The bonus structures usually remain the same. Just the base salary, you're starting to see maybe level out. If not. Yeah, it's leveled up a little bit, I guess.

Yeah, I think leveling out, that's a better way of doing it. It's that sort of. And it's sort of just tapering off a little bit. It's not going to level off completely flat, you know, it's just going to continue and get back to more sensible levels, I think. And that's one of the things I've seen on the salaries. And Joe and I were just talking before this call about titles, you know, in our salary survey, it's an interesting1 because US titles are slightly different to UK titles, are different to European titles, but we put them into various buckets, into categories, if you like. So we go everything from treasury analyst, dealer to global treasurer. And, you know, people have said to me, oh, well, well, what about this level? Where am I? Where do you see this? I said, look, come and talk to me. Individual advice, but the general rule of thumb is, and again, we talked about this, that I had previously treasurers, if you like, in, say, the UK market, that might be treasurers of housing associations. Now, at the end of the day, their title was group treasurer. They are a treasurer, but they run the treasury for a housing association. So they cover one currency. They're very cash centric, no fx, nothing else. And they then have the same title as a global treasurer, you know, that ran the treasury or three different regional treasury centers globally, 95 countries. So, yeah, they're pretty different jobs and they've got different rewards, you know, so one is, you know, well into the six figures, one's near, you know, probably just into the six figures. So it's, it's quite different. And that's where you and I talked about that. And as you say, you. There are different titles in the us, aren't there? So that's one of the things.

Yeah, there are different titles. Typically what you'll see over here is just your analyst, your manager, your senior manager, your director, your AT or your assistant treasurer, and then your treasurer. So maybe not as advanced as some of the titles or segregated some of the titles that you'll see in other markets, but that's typically what we see over here, where, I mean, salary and compensation is always the trickiest part of this because it's. So it's subjective. Right. It's just. It's based on your location, it's based on the size of the company that you're working for. It's based on the responsibility if you're straight cash and you don't have any FX or you don't have any capital markets responsibilities. You can't compare apples to apples that way. Right. So it's. You have just a number of different factors. That's where it's usually. If you have the question about it, it's usually good to, to take a look at how really we want to.

Or.

I'm sorry, it's really just good to ask someone like a you or a me for that specialized advice. Hey, where should I be? Where should I be benchmarked?

Yeah. And that's it. And that, that's what we're. That's what we're here for as well, so that we've done it for 20 plus years. So that's one of the things.

Yeah, yeah. And Mike, I gotta ask you, you're putting a lot of focus on the us Obviously I'm back over here and holding down this side of it. When are you heading back? I heard you have some travel plans.

Coming back this way next week. Well, a week in a bit. So. It came from one of the worst cups of coffee I've ever had. We didn't put that on everyone. We can talk about this from Chris, my good friend at Prior Cashman. I'm sitting, having a coffee with him last September. I've done the Treasure Career Corner, live events where I talk to people. And you've heard it on the podcast, if you're a regular listener. Did it in London, done it across Luxembourg, done across the world, did a little bit over at the afp. And I was just sitting there looking out of his offices in Times Square. I said I should do it here and I just meant do it here in America. It's great. It's great to meet treasury professionals, anyway. Yeah, great. You can do it here. I was like, what do you mean? Come with me. Took me down the corridor to amazing conference room. And that was September. And at the beginning of March, over two nights, we're going to have over 120 treasury professionals in total talking for two nights in a row about Treasury. We've got Dana Laidhold from nasdaq, we've got Chris Cocan from Endeavor Brands, wwe, UFC and everything else. We've also got, got Borac, previous podcast guests from Louis Vuitton. We've got Brian Harrison, who one day will be on the podcast. Get him on there. Got Luke from gxo. Great guys. They're. The night before we're talking to, you know, some of those guys, we're helping people in the room talk about developing their treasury careers, some of the, their career journeys. Two amazing nights. You know, I sometimes think, wow, what am I doing too? It's a, it's double the work. But the fact is it's going to be 100 treasury professionals over two nights in times Square. And then I do that and then I'm back and then after Kariba live in Vegas, back via texpo. So if you're in either of those, is in Vegas, see a text bow, then fly back that week, come straight back to our London event. Last year we had 100. Well, it was crazy. The year before we'd had 100 people, 80 people in the room and oh, wow, it's amazing. No, it's not. The following year we had 130 show up on a wet. When Wet Thursday night in November. The room was stoked. And we're gonna do that again this year. It's gonna be amazing. Followed by. So back for that, we've got Luxembourg, Greece. Back to New York a bit more. Yeah. Then. Then we got Nashville, afp. And then we've got London. Oh, yeah. And we've got Frankfurt. Don't forget Frankfurt. We can't. How can we do that as well? And we've got a couple more. It's just insane.

It is insane. You're gonna earn your air miles and good luck figuring out what time zone you're in at any given time.

Yeah, what was the.

What was the. I just have to know. You had 81 year, you had 120 plus the next year. What was the main difference there? Like what. What was there some sort of misunderstood expectation coming into the event the first year where maybe it didn't have the same attendance, where all of a sudden, hey, the, the secret's out now all of a sudden you have people banging down the door to get in the event.

I think people realize it's about networking and people want to be back in the room with other Treasury Professionals. And there's a couple of rules we have we don't with. If anyone's listening from a bank, I'm really sorry. If anyone's listening from consultancy, I'm really sorry. We love you guys, we love to see you at other people's conferences, but it's a very non sales event and even though we've got the brand up here, treasury recruitment company, we don't salesy. We don't talk about recruitment per se, we're talking about people issues. Again, you and I have talked barely, you know. Yes. If you want to recruit, call us. If you want a new job, send us your resume. But we don't do it, do we? We do it like sort of. Sometimes I think we should be a bit more overt. We should tell people. But certainly at the events that's never the case. What we want to do is help treasury professionals with their treasury careers. And there was a real need. Everyone was coming up and saying, oh, there's no one else doing this. The associations aren't doing this. We love doing this with you. And, you know, just going back to those events. I missed out, I missed out. Chicago, Windy City. Sorry. Love you guys in Chicago. Yeah, over there, I think. Yeah, there you go. You know, one of the things is. Yeah, so we do text bow. London, Windy City Summit because. And each of those. I've got Kerry, I've got Raquel live on stage doing treasury career corner, lives with those ladies about their treasure cruise in Chicago. I've got Fred Shackney's previous podcast, Tamara Sarah Eisner in Texas talking about their treasury careers to show people in the audience what steps they took so people can copy them, they can emulate them. These are amazing global treasurers. Be like them. This is what you need to do. So that's the exciting thing for me that we. And that's why I think more and more people showed up this year for the London event. I'm gonna go to 180. I want to get 180 treasury professionals in a room.

Okay.

We've got an amazing panel. We've already got Dan Ferguson, we've already got lovely Diane Wilson from ti. They're both gonna be on stage and hopefully I've got an amazing other guest to be announced. He's just trying to work out his schedule. That'd be amazing. And yeah, just someone said to me the other day, well, you're really busy. I went, yeah, because it's a business. So this is what we do. But I, I get stoked every time you Guys are listening to this, you're seeing this. I'm talking to treasurers. That gets my juices flow. I love it. I talk to Treasury. Oh, my God. It's like spending time talking Treasury. I've done it for 25 years and that's what's helped us get to here and I bloody love it. You know, and that's why you're on board as well, because, you know, you and I just get a buzz. We need more jobs on. So if you are looking to recruit treasury, people call us at whatever level. Yes, we do retain search. Yes. We also do contingent. Yes, we can give you advice. That's why we're here. So they go a bit more salesy and we need to do more of that. Yeah. I mean, and again, I'm looking forward to hopefully getting you across. We can do this that we've put forward for the session in Nashville at afp. We've got a few other ones and, you know, I'm hoping Joe will come and join me channel there as well. I mean, anything else you. You're thinking about?

No, not at the moment. Again, it's. It's chasing jabs and, and just getting to know again, rekindling a lot of old relationships and, and just seeing where we go from here. But it's been, it's been a fun ride, it's been a fun month and I look forward to everything that's coming up.

Amazing. Thank you, Joe. Well, I'll do the closing bits on the podcast in a second there. Yeah. Look forward to seeing all of you guys in New York or Texas or wherever it be this year. So thank you.

Thanks, Mike.

Thanks.

Thank you very much for listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Wanted to catch up with you at the end of today's podcast to invite you to Join us in 2024 at one of our treasured Career Corner live events throughout the us, throughout Europe, throughout the uk. We're going to be right the way across and we start the the world tour for Treasure Career Corner Live in New York on Wednesday the 6th and Thursday 7th of March. You don't want to miss them gonna be there. If you're in New York, please look it up. Register. You've listened to the podcast. You can actually get to meet some of the guests live. You get to meet me live. I've kind of everything. But anyway, no, I hope you'll come and join us talking treasury careers. Each event starts at 6:00 clock with registration 6:30 to 7:30. I meet with the guests I talk to them on a live panel it's live version of the podcast after all and then we do networking drinks so the first one say in New York in Times Square then we actually move on we've only got 65 people per night that so we're booking up and then we're hitting the road we're doing Treasure Career Corner live in cities across the us, UK and Europe. We'll be at Kariba Live in Las Vegas, we'll be at Texpo in Houston and we're also stopping off in Dallas and then we've got other of our own events in Chicago, London, Athens, Luxembourg, Frankfurt. What could be better? So if you keep an eye on the website we'd love to see you there. Keep an eye out for dates and venues we're coming to a city near you if you want to connect with us just reach out to me. Can't wait to see you in 2024. Treasury Career Corner Live the World Tour See you soon.