Treasury Talent Wars: Evolving Roles, Strategic Skills and Salary Trends for 2025

Foreign to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next, let's get on with the show. So welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast. This week it's a bit of a different podcast. So it's the end of the year, I'm going to interview or catch up with Katie Hardy who run helps me run UK and Europe. Later on in the show, Joe Grabowski, who runs our U.S. office. But we're going to bring you up to date with what 2024 has been like, because we're getting that question every day at the moment and what 2025 is. Look, what's the outlook that we're looking into? Our crystal ball. Reflecting on what's happened so far. We, Katie and I have been talking about this quite a lot. We're a couple of weeks before Christmas, how has the market been? What's it going to do? And we're going to give it to you guys. Then we go to Christmas, then we get into 2025. So, Katie, the markets throughout 2024, can you give us a bit of a, a view or a bit of commentary, if you like. What's it been like?

Hi. So I think on a global scale, the markets have been okay. I wouldn't say they've been overly buoyant as such. I think I could sit here and say, like some agencies do that we've been run off of our feet and it's been a great, great market. I like to be transparent, as we do at the treasury recruitment company. It has been, we've been busy, but I think a lot of the roles have had more of a challenge to get things signed off. A lot of the markets now are recruiting to replace across 2024. I think when somebody leaves treasury position, there's a lot more because on do they actually need to replace them or can the role be integrated within the current team?

Yeah, yeah.

And there's a lot more scrutiny on and a lot more hoops to jump through before they can actually get the sign off. So I think the end to end process is taking a lot longer than perhaps it was a couple of years ago.

So the image is in some ways that people can go on LinkedIn, put an advert up there, put pull everyone in, get a big response, but actually the people they get are people just looking for any old job. They're not just getting that treasury role for them sort of thing. And I know that you and I've talked about this because you were an HR in house recruiter. What was that like?

I think the thing is, again, being very open and honest, if you're in house, the last thing you want to do is use an agency. So you, you go through, you go to an agency through gritted teeth and I think the perception is that you can go onto LinkedIn, post it a job and that will be absolutely fine. It will give you all the people that you want and then your percentage or your KPI for direct hiring is where it needs to be. With LinkedIn at the moment and other job boards, as you've just spoken about, you get an influx of, you get quantity. The time that it takes an in house person to go through that quantity to find anybody of quality can take a long time. And I think when you are in house, you aren't just looking after treasury so you get, you get aligned to corporate functions. So it could be that somebody looked after treasury, they look after tax and insurance, they look after corporate finance, they look after it. They do rely on LinkedIn to generate what they need. And I think a lot of the time with LinkedIn responses, it's people who need a job, they don't necessarily want.

A job with you.

Yeah. And yeah, it's not. Your company isn't necessarily the chosen company. I think where we come in is very much that we engage with the treasury communities on a global scale on a daily basis. So whether that's we're talking to people every single day or you're doing your podcasts or we're sending out communication or going back a couple of years, we did our bounce back program. We're always giving something more than just recruitment. And I think, you know, treasury professionals across all levels are used to that interaction from us. So actually when we do phone up about a role for them, they don't general, they're not generally on the market, they're not looking at LinkedIn, they're not looking at company websites.

Yeah.

It's just they're always open to opportunity. Yeah. If it's going to enhance their careers. But actually it takes us to really delve into the actual opportunity where it fits within their career. Actually now over the last 12 months, there's been a lot more focus for the people that I've been speaking to around the culture because, and I know that we're on our conversation hybrid came up again. But I think, you know, now that's settled it's all about what's the culture like.

Yeah, but you said it's settled. You and I have talked about the expectation being that hybrid is now the new norm sort of thing. And I know you've had some conversations about that and which is the right split and anyone that. Because I did a piece the other day saying there are some times when you might be in the office four or five days a week, but the new norm, two to three days and things.

Yeah, definitely. I think the whole kind of buzz around working from home and the hybrid thing is guide down and I think the expectation when you speak to candidates is it's the two to three days in the office split. I think it becomes out of the norm. And generally a couple of my clients over the last few weeks have said actually just to let you know, we expect somebody to be in the office four days a week. But so actually the conversations we're having is we don't need to ask them what is, what's your hybrid working policy? It's a given that it will be two to three days unless they tell us, they feed us the information to say otherwise.

Yeah. And also I know you and I, we've been doing a lot of the UK markets and the more junior roles because people say, oh, you just do Treasuries. No, we do all levels. We do treasury analysts, treasury manager. So if you're listening today as well, when you want help, call us whatever level you might be. We're not just at the senior level, but it's been a sort of change of requirement when we've been recruiting those roles, isn't it? The roles have been a bit more strategic.

When you say, yeah, definitely it had started a bit more last year in Europe where a lot of the mandates we were getting, no matter whether it was sort of treasury analyst or sort of head of treasury, where it was becoming a case of actually we do want people to do the day to day operations, but also we want them to look at the future and look at, and do forward thinking, strategic things. Having now looked at the UK market across this year, it's becoming the norm. I think there is a lot of, a lot more talk talks internally around actually getting your treasury specialists who can do the strategic side of things. Their teams can be a bit more agile and a lot of the not mundane, I wouldn't say, but the sort of the hardcore operational and administrative tasks could possibly be outsourced or could just be lifted slightly in terms of the structure. So I know that a lot more focus When I've been getting briefs from clients has been on actually we want them to be able to run a project from start to finish and that's not necessarily a natural thing that, especially at treasury analyst level that they've been exposed to before.

So it's changed. Yeah, yeah, I mentioned there that we don't just do senior stuff but I think the methodologies are a bit different now, aren't they? Because we get retained on the more senior roles but then we do more contingent work and maybe someone listening, they don't know what contingent work means. Actually I know that we spoke about it the other day and I thought afterwards, actually someone doesn't know what does contingent mean? Do you want to just explain that for the listeners as well? And then because I know that sometimes they try and do that in house and things but then we get contingent search, what that is.

Yeah, the contingent search is basically no win, no fee. So actually we will source the individuals and the clients don't pay anything until we've successfully engaged them into the business via signing a contract. And I think a lot of the time at the junior level that recruitment methodology works absolutely fine because the chances are the in house team have already done some form of direct sourcing contingent, I think going forward into 2025 will still be part of the more junior level.

And then also we've got a. I think we've redone our website recently and we've got a. We're being more explicit in our messaging and actually saying to people, look, we can help you whatever stage of your career, if you're a Treasury assistant, need help, call us. If you're a Treasury manager, call us. If you're a treasurer and you need to recruit any of those guys. Yeah, you don't have to go to your non specialist agencies who you spend half your time explaining what they did, what they actually do as well.

Also I think for a client what tends to happen, as I mentioned earlier, the process is taking longer to. For roles to get signed off and when somebody resigns, for instance, then in house recruitment will possibly look for. They tend to have a, from my experience, they tend to have a service level agreement of looking directly for four to six weeks before then they would look at engaging with external providers. When you add all of that up, you're halfway through someone's notice period. So then by the time it comes to the agency the need is a lot greater because the gap in that team could put business in a vulnerable situation. And I think if you come to a specialist like Ourselves, you, we're. We pretty much have got our finger on the pulse of who actually would be open to a move because we're talking to them all the time. So actually we don't start from ground zero. We've got that heads. We've got that head start, I guess, over more generalist agencies who may not have had a Treasury position for a few months.

Yeah, I don't know. We've done a lot of. You mentioned there about the community and everything else and we're giving more back. So. And then what we're talking about is those treasury managers want to help them if you like. Because I know throughout, if we look at the geographies, if you like, so uk, you've had bit of recruit to replace sort of thing. But I know that in Europe, when you've been recruiting those treasury analyst roles, you've come up against salary issues, haven't you? Because they don't want to pay so much. But they actually have to because I know that we. Do you think our salary survey helps with that or what do you think?

Yeah, I do. I think because a lot of the time the actual hiring manager is aware, if you like, of the, the changes in the salaries. But a lot of the time going back to what I said earlier where they've got to jump through a lot more hoops, they need some black and white data to actually get the sign off to increase the salary. Going back to sort of Euro finance, I had so many clients coming to me going, oh my gosh, what is going on with the treasury analyst and treasury manager market? Because we just can't seem to get the level of experience for the salary that we've got signed off.

Yeah.

And it just becomes a more challenging market. And really what we've seen over the course of the last 18 months is the demand and need for treasury analysts is a lot higher. So treasury analysts have got the pick in the market, but what that means is that the salaries are being inflated. So once you could get treasury analysts who have five years experience for sort of between 50 and 70,000, now you can get somebody with maybe two to three years experience wanting 70,000. There is a big change and a lot of my clients, when they've seen the data from the salary survey, have been appreciative of it because it means that they've got some hardcore evidence to be able then to take to whether it's the CFO or the HR team and say, okay, this is actually core evidence that we need to ease our expectations on experience level or increase the salary.

And I know that we also talk about treasury centers and moving operational activity out there, non strategic sort of thing. So it's, we interviewed, we talked to Paul Hussey at our Dublin conference where he was live on stage at one of our previous podcasts and he was talking about the fact that, you know, treasury operations at some point was dying out, but it was the, it wasn't actually dying out. He was talking about some of the operational stuff being streamlined sort of thing.

And I think, think it will ever, as you said, phase out. But I do think, especially over this year, the conversations I've had is we want somebody who is an expert in treasury to come in and do the strategic side of things and if they're, if they come in and they seem to be getting bogged down, if you like, with the non strategic elements of the role, then they would look to outsource that. And in the five years that I've been here, I just, I've not seen that those types of conversations, especially at the more junior level as well, seen it at the more senior level. But treasury manager level, it's coming into play as well. It's. The world of treasury is changing.

I think that's reflecting in the salaries as well. We just done the latest one, we were over 1200 people now. We, we produced all these different results in the past. One of the things that actually, if you're listening today, do the salary survey treasurysalary.com but also we're changing and shifting a bit because what we, the feedback from the audience, we were running quarterly at one stage then we realized that was too much so we reduced it to doing at the end of Q1, at the end of Q3. But actually the feedback has been actually we don't want it then. We want it in January and we want it in July. Can you run it then? And we're like, yeah, no problem at all. We go to clients when we're actually recruiting for them. But I know that this year you found it's quite weird when you put someone forward for a role and they've started to get to know, understand about a position and things like that. A lot of the salary expectations have been changing, but not. They haven't been. What's the word? Beefing up their salaries falsely, have they? It's been.

No, no. Yeah. It's not a case of that. They get to offer stage and they try their luck. It's just been obviously we want to showcase with people's current salary and what they're looking at based on the information that they've had in terms of a job description and things like that. But as they. What I've seen, especially more at the senior level this year, is that as they go through the process, they understand the size of the business in a lot more detail. They understand the remit of the current treasury team, they understand the remit of the role, both as in what they need to do in the now, but also look to the future. They then start having a think about actually what is that role and what would I need to be able to move to do that role. And I've had a lot more of that this year. And again, our salary survey has helped because it means that we can actually advise candidates about what's realistic and what then pushes them out of market. Right. And also be able to liaise with clients to make sure that they're coming in at the right level.

Yeah, we're Gonna look at 2025 now, just the outlook. One of the first things I was going to say is about our live events. So they've been really good this year, a bit of a pilot year, if you like. So we've done them right the way across. We've done everything from Greece to Vegas. Someone actually said to me yesterday, said, God, you've been everywhere I went. Yeah. And I'm actually quite pleased just to be back in my shed, just doing some of the podcasts and things. But I think they are becoming the norm. People go out there, they love the event. So we're going to do a couple in London, two across Europe, so we've got Dublin, Netherlands, and then we're also focusing on five or six across the us, if not a bit more as well, and Euro finance and AFP and things like that. But I think for me, or what for you, do you think is going to happen? 2025, an interesting year.

I think it will be an interesting year. I think it's. I think in terms of process and the time to hire, I think that will stay bit more challenging. I do think I'm interested to see, because we've had a lot of more senior remits this year than we have had in the past couple of years. I'm interested to see whether or not that will stay the same. But I do think that the requirement for more strategic skill set will remain, and that's across all. All three markets. Yeah, and across all levels. So, yeah, I think it will be an interesting year. It's definitely one to watch.

I think people should also. We're going to do what we've got more of our newsletter. I'm now going to do this weekly blog as well, which is a little bit more of a. A snapshot so people can go onto our website and see that. And we're not going to put it on the podcast per se, but I just did our first one today where I talked about the personal versus work and bringing those together. And also I did this blog that came out earlier this week about remote working and about how Dellard Bandit and a load of others, you've got to come back in the office and some of my views on that. So if you are interested, go to our Treasury TV channel, stuff like that, you'll see some of that. And yeah, other than that, anything else to wrap up with, Katie?

I think you and I have have talked about other ideas that we're doing in order to still stay active in the communities and giving something back. So I think 2025 is definitely one to watch.

Yeah.

But apart from that, I just will wish everybody a happy Christmas.

Yeah, Happy Christmas on onward to 2025 and I'm gonna wrap up there with you and then I'm gonna catch up and I'm gonna splice it in with the amazing Joe Grabowski shortly. So thank you very much.

Thank you. Bye.

I'd like to give a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If ever you've wondered whether there's a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get Greg to explain who flywire are, how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Follow the link in today's show notes. Let's get back on with the show. You've heard Katie and I just talk about what we've seen globally. So we then also touched on uk, Europe and the us. Now I'm joined by Joe Grabowski. We're recording this bit live so you can actually go to our YouTube channel. If you're under their Treasury TV you can see us chatting. If you enjoy YouTube more than you do listening over there, we've got a face of radio. But anyway, let's move on past that bit, Joe, let's dive into it. So 2024, what's it been like? We'll come to 2025 and what you've seen. So yeah, what's it been like?

Yeah, 2024, it's interesting, right? I think it's been busy, but it's also been rough for both people looking to hire and people looking for jobs. Really what I think is you're seeing a shift from an employee's market, which we've probably seen a little bit post Covid all the way until probably mid last year, more toward an employer's market. And really what that ripple effect has or the downstream impact of this is budgets have been tight across the organization. So now you have treasurers who are fighting for roles, headcount on their team, whether it's new headcount, trying to replace people who've left the organization or have been promoted internally. On that same note, you also have treasury people are analytical to begin with, but now you have almost a fear that you might not get a second shot at this if you make the wrong hire. So you have some treasurers who are being a little bit more critical or going over potential candidates with a more of a fine tooth comb than maybe you've seen in the past. From there you also the other way that it plays into this is the recruiting market in 2023 and in 2024 was brutal. So you've seen a tunnel.

What do you mean by that? You mean from a. If you're a candidate looking for a role or do you mean if a client trying to seek to talent?

Just you. Basically what you've had is layoffs started in the recruiting space in 2023 and continued into this year. Right. So you look at it from a staffing industry perspective. Just in the US it's down 10% overall in 2023 and it's still trending that way in 2024. We have a week left. I don't think there's much ground to be made up there. But what that means is now all of a sudden you have these tight budgets. You have smaller recruiting teams for the people who are supporting these treasurers who are looking to hire. That means they're also split across other areas of finance, maybe they're split across it corporate functions, whatever it may be. So now you have a team that's stretched thin. You have a specialty skill set and customer service is just. It's hurting on both sides because of it. Treasurers aren't getting people or quality people as quickly as they'd like. People who are involved in the process. Decisions are taking longer. These timelines are being drawn out. It's never going to move as quickly as a job seeker would like it to move. But they might also have other opportunities. So treasurers are losing out on good talent because of lack of efficiency within the organization, which is also caused by a team that has just been pretty much bombarded over the last couple of years or shred through and again.

And I think it's a great point because Katie and I spoke earlier about the fact that we had recruit to replace. That was what we were seeing. One person leaves, you cover it, you recruit to replace again. Second person, you need to recruit that person. But then you give this treasury job description to an HR person that's going, what's treasury like? They've got nine other requisitions on. They might have 20 other requisitions. They suddenly throw in this specialist job and then they come to us and say, oh, I put it on LinkedIn and I've had a hundred responses. And they go, yeah, and you're calling us. Yeah, we pretty much know that you haven't been successful. And you think that. Now, the good thing is we know the talent, we know the people that are looking to move. Yeah. For that career step, as you say, I think that they are still being. If you're in that position, that's where we're adding the value. And we would say that, but how would you justify that?

The other part to it, too is because you have this reduced headcount. Now all of a sudden, you're trying to pack more and more skill sets into just one simple role. So now all of a sudden, maybe you're looking for aspects of FP and A, you're looking for aspects of accounting, and that's not Treasury. At the end of the day, there are people out there who possess all of those skill sets. But it's just compounding on top of itself where you have tight budgets. Most internal recruiting HR teams do not have the ability to work with external vendors simply because they're already under the microscope for their budgets. They've already been slashed, they're trying to save costs. They don't want to be additional overhead. And then now you have a specialized skill set that might be combined with another specialized skill set and you don't have anyone on the other side of the desk saying, hey, wait, this doesn't sound right.

The quick solution is it just simply just call us. And I think it would be. I would say I had a call with a Treasury with a HR person the other day and they've got a Treasury role. And I said, look, I think you can do this one yourselves. And they're like, what? Really? I said, yeah. I said, it's good. Easy treasury analyst role, I think they could get some good people. And I actually said, look, go to the market. I said, if it was a more specialist role, they're quite a specialist company. And I won't say who because I think we will get the vacancy later on. But I said, you might get that person. You need to go and follow this process, go through the process. These are the things to look out for. Okay. They were like I was coaching them. I said, I don't care about getting paid yet. I said, the fact is I don't think you. I think you might find the person, but you can then go to your cfo, your treasurer and say, I've tried it. With Mike's advice, we didn't succeed. We need to do it on a contained search basis. We'll give Mike some money, he'll go find the person and they're oh, okay. That's what you'll see.

Well, that goes into the data points as well. Right. Like the treasury salary survey, that's crucial because that's real time information. It's not from a salary.com. these are specific treasury practitioners that are giving you a reflection of the market around you. And that's a lot of the coaching that we do here in the US And I'm sure it's true on your side of the business or your side of the pond as well. But it's. We're spending a lot of time just coaching people on the misalignment between what they're looking for and what actually exists in the market and trying to level set expectations to find a match between the two.

And I also was interviewed on the Strategic Treasurer podcast recently. We'll put a link to that in the show. Notes and really good conversation with Craig Jeffrey. He was particularly quizzing on US salaries, how they compared. So don't really compare to European. It's very different with the tax and everything else. Higher taxes in the us, higher salaries. So more comes in and more goes out in different ways and different baskets. But there was that side of things. But then also I explained to him we are shifting our salary survey a bit, moving it from we were doing the end of Q1, end of Q3, doesn't really fit with people's schedules a little bit. So we're going to make it half yearly, run it in January and July just to fit in with our treasury folks. That's what they want. So let's do it. So we're going to rerun that bit more work for us, but I think that's going to be better salaries. What have you seen from your side that you've noticed? Because we'll come back to the placement we've recently made. What have you seen, salaries wise?

It's been a mix, to be perfectly honest. You still have the misalignments between the skill sets and titles and salary. But then you also. We've run into a fair number of companies that are like, coach us on the market, tell us what we need to pay, or they'll at least look to us for guidance. They're open to being coached. And those are the people, at least in my experience, that seem to be a little bit more serious about hiring. You have the tire kickers, what I'll call them, the people who are like, yeah, we're going to throw a dart in the dartboard and just hope that we hit a bullseye. And then you have the people who actually want to take a more strategic approach to this and make sure that they're entering the market the right way. Because when you look at this, there's two sides of this equation. You're trying to get people in the door, but you're also trying to keep them. And this market, it is an employer market right now, who knows how long that's going to hang on for? But as soon as that's. You're risking attrition if you're not in line with the market and if you're not treating your team.

And then I mentioned that we recently made a really great placement in New York, which we'll be able to announce early in the new year. But that came from Treasure Curriculum Alive, didn't it as well? We're finally. It's actually, it works.

Who would have thought? Live, live networking and having relationships that we've developed over all these years pay off. But yeah, that's. And honestly, that's a tip if you're a practitioner listening to this and sitting in the market, because there are so many people in the market, this is the first year, I think, that I've heard in quite some time where I've actually run into a fair number of people who. They've been laid off, they've been impacted by reorganizations, something like that. And sorry, I know this is a little bit off topic, but it's. If you're looking for that job, if you find yourself in that situation, because there are so many people in this market looking, that's why you can't rely on LinkedIn or anything like that. Mike mentioned it earlier. If you're getting hundreds of applications, you're bound to get caught up in the wash and not even noticed. That's where the networking comes in. And that's when you mentioned the networking piece and the relationships that we have. I got to throw that out there for anybody listening is make sure you're maintaining your network, checking in with your network. That's going to be your best shot in an employer's market to landing a role and being able to stand out from the crowd.

And if only U.S. treasury professionals could come to any of six free events that we're running in 2025, we've done the same. In fact, we did a few more this year. Not us wise. We've got six events we're gonna do. I'm doing New York actually the first one in New York end of March, then potentially texpo, then Kyriba Live, then AFP Boston and a couple of others doing a couple more Texas and a couple more Chicago I think. And then we've got a UK and European events. And actually we did our last London one the other day and everyone was like 100 plus people in the room. Two amazing treasures. Treasurer Porsche, treasurer Tesco. And then everyone got to network and they were like doing the networking. Oh wow, this is great. And they're not getting it through their associations. They're going actually we're putting on, we love doing it because then we're getting the clients, we're getting the candidates and we're enjoying it because I'm actually meeting the treasury folk out there and catching up with yourself. You came to the last one as well in our New York session, which is going to be great. And as, as we say, that made it last time, didn't it?

It did. And when you think about it, people are showing up to these events, number one, to learn and hear the stories of people who are sitting in the treasure seat.

Right.

The other half to that is if you're showing up to a networking event, you know that you're there to network. It's easy to ignore a cold outreach on LinkedIn. It's easy to ignore a cold email. You have someone's full attention. People aren't sitting at these events just on there with their heads buried in their phone. Right. These are people who are actively looking to build their networks in the tre space. Not to. I guess we will make it a pitch for the live events, right? These are networking events. These are for like minded professionals who want to build their networks within Treasury.

And well, when I spoke on stage at AFP Nashville, one of the points I made it Was one of my closing slides, if you like, was the word networking. It's yes, it's great to have a beer, yes, it's great to socialize, but it's in the middle of that word is like net. And it was like work. And I said, don't just think, oh, great, and come here, sit here, be prepared to work at it. And it's great. The people that did two or three people have said to me from the New York event, they've actually caught up and expanded their own networks with some of the people they met, two or three different groups, like these spider grabs or the book, which is great because actually they're getting a better connections, they've got more people on their LinkedIn. So that's why we do it. And it may be hopeful. I'm hopefully of a will announce the sponsors soon, but I think that can really help us as well.

Absolutely. That's people helping people and just again trying to help build businesses, build networks and build teams at the end of the day.

So I'm going to wrap up for this year, next year. What are we thinking? We've got all the. The events, everything else.

Yeah, obviously we have the events. Outside of that, I'm in the market every day along with you. We're talking to treasury practitioners, we're talking to people looking to hire treasury practitioners. I look at this as I know you've been in business for 20 some odd years, I don't want to age you here, but 26 now, you wanted to throw a number out there, so here we are. But I still look at this as a startup in the us, to be perfectly honest. And I know there's a lot of territory to cover here, there's a lot of relationships to be made, there's a lot of people to talk to. That's that day one mentality that I'm taking into 2025 is just approaching it, pedal to the metal, seeing what we come up with.

In the end, I think the, for me, 2025 is a few different things. Obviously the business, we continue to grow with the placements, we do the networking, live events to meet treasurers, to meet treasury candidates, to help find you new roles, new positions and help you build your networks. But also we do the other bits, we do the salary server, talk to treasurysalary.com got here, lovely podcast, which people are watching. But the fact is there's someone, every time, every week we get someone else sign up to the podcast and go, oh, wow, what Treasury Career corner. It's there 300 over 350, 360 podcasts with treasurers, great back catalog and you can listen to their stories, sign up there and stuff. And until I see you next year, mate, thank you very much.

Absolutely. Happy holidays.

Thank you. Cheers. Thanks for tuning into another great episode. You really enjoy it. Thank you very much. You make it worthwhile, us recording them with these amazing treasury professionals right away, across the world, from the us, across the uk, across Europe, and there's lots more exciting guests to come and lots more live events. We love delivering this content. We get asked now, is this what you do? Do you just do content? You just do? No, the reason we do the content is to get to know you guys, to give you back the tips for success, if you like. But we're here to help you hire someone. If you need to recruit, call us, because at our heart, we are a Treasury recruitment company. That's how we pay the bills, that's how we pay for the podcast and that's what we're passionate about. We hear from you at events and things. Can we also help you find your next great role? Can we help you hire? The answer is yes, that's exactly what we do. Yes, we do our treasury salary survey@treasurysalary.com that helps us know exactly how to benchmark not only your salary, but also when you're looking to hire. We know exactly what the market is paying, wherever you might be, whether it's the us, UK or Europe. We want to make sure that we are the best informed, that we're not just finger in the air. We always know. If you want to hire the best in treasury, don't hesitate to contact us. Go onto the website treasuryrecruitment.com or in the US, you can contact Joe Grabowski Europe. Contact the lovely Katie. For more senior roles and roles across the uk, reach out and contact me or drop any of us an email. Joe treasuryrecruitment.com Katie at treasuryrecruitment.com or Mike@treasuryrecruitment.com Let us help you make the hiring process as amazingly seamless and easy as our podcasts are to listen to. Thanks for your amazing support and looking forward to seeing you at either an event or a conference very soon. Or just give me a call. Let's help you find the next role or recruit the next treasury professional. All right, until next week, many thanks.