What influences impact a treasury career with Martijn van Steenpaal

So welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. In this week's show, I'm joined by Martin Van Steenpahl, the vice President Treasurer at Darling Ingredients based in the U.S. now, darling ingredients, we talked before. It's actually, I've got a very long bio here from Wikipedia, but in essence, darning ingredients are recycler of organic waste materials and turning into a number of other products afterwards. Massive group, 135 years, 200 locations, 10,000 employees. So huge group headquartered over in Texas, which Martin is based over there. But you'll hear he's actually not got that much of a Texas accent unless he puts on. We'll get that later. But basically I'm going to get Martin on the show because it's his show and I wanted him to talk about his career to date, how he came out of university or then found. We were just talking about the consultancy group he joined straight out there and how he got started in Treasury. So, Martin, it's over to you, sir. It's your show.

Thank you for the introduction, Mike, and appreciate the invite for being on the show today. Career journey. It's always interesting to talk about it. Darling, where I am now in Texas, I probably would have never thought I would end up here and you're probably going to find out why as I go through my career journey. It started, as you mentioned, by coincidence, a career in Treasury. When I was at college or in my fourth year, I had to do my internship in a regional auditing firm. I was doing an assignment for the managing partner there. That worked out pretty well. I think at that moment I was kind of, you know, done with college. I was not so motivated anymore. I was probably more interested in all the side activities that happen when you are at college.

And so that's what you have to do, isn't it? You've got to make the full richness of the college experience.

No, absolutely. I mean, I do not regret that part for sure, but that was course you have to enjoy, but at some point in time, you also have to realize that you have to become an adult. That's when I did my internship. I kind of appreciated being part of a company, got motivated and, you know, realized that, you know, this was the way to go. I had to, you know, make sure that I finished my studies. In parallel, I was offered a job at a smaller consulting firm in which the auditing firm had a. Had a stake. At that time it was a. A group called ILFA Finance, based in the south of the Netherlands. And so ILFA is a company who runs a consultancy, Advisory Advisory Services, at that point in time, mainly to nonprofit customers. Ideally for me at that point in time, you know, seeing a number of different organizations and kind of for me, an introduction to Treasury, I didn't really know what treasury was at that point in time. Got to know it a little bit better, of course, got educated on the job, learned more about treasury and more specifically, I think cash management at first and Cash Management Automation. Treasury got my attention there. I liked it. I find it very interesting. I did see kind of the added value that a Treasury organization or treasury function can add to the companies. And I really enjoyed my first part of my career, or first years of my career being a consultant, traveling to various places in the country. In the Netherlands, I was going to.

Say, would you recommend that as a good starting point? If somebody else is, you know, wherever they might be in Europe, in the US or whatever, and they're coming out of university, do you think that's a good grounding or. Because I have said sometimes with consultancy, the flip side of that is you're being employed as a consultant and they want the benefit of your years of experience to come in and advise them what's best practice and not. Or was it just because you're a junior consultant, you go in there and helping do things or what was the sort of setup? Would you like, would you say?

I think from the perspective of myself or any potential other person that would kind of consider this, I think it's definitely something to do because you're absolutely right. I mean, you're not the consultant that is being looked at for advice and opinions and so forth, but being a junior and just fresh out of school, you get to learn a lot and get along with, let's say, the senior professional there. You also get to work for various organizations. And what I find very interesting, and I think what has helped me is, you know, to see that not every organization is the same. Different practices, different challenges, different cultures, I think. And in fact, that would have been one of my recommendations if you would have asked me somewhere in this podcast, Mike, that I think especially when you are at the beginning of your career, it's good to kind of figure out what you like and you can. I think you can do that by working for different organizations. And whether that would be in A role as a, you know, junior consultant or consultant at the start of your career or whether you change jobs a couple of times in the early years of your career, I would say both of that is something that, that I would recommend, you know, without advising, to become a job hopper. But I definitely think it's a good thing to see and experience what the world has to offer.

Yeah, range of different companies quite quickly and you can dip in for a couple of months, project to quite a few months, or you're quasi working for them in a way, but you're not, you know, on the hook for it as well. So you can get to see that range. And also maybe you also best practice if you're learning from those different consultants above you. So, yeah, it could be a really good move.

Absolutely. That's how I've experienced it. But at the same time, I have to say that after a couple of years, I guess gets to your point of, you know, being the junior, you know, when you kind of become more experienced at some point in time, you also want to be the consultant or advisor that talks from experience. Not having experience, let's say, in a certain treasury role for a corporate organization or a nonprofit organization or whoever, the customer, that's the flip side. And in fact, that that made me also decide to, you know, to do something else and make a move and do the job in a different role.

So, Martin, you had this great experience and developed ilfa, and then you decided to go make the move into the corporate treasury world, you know, corporate treasury, and continue that with a bit of a sweet tooth from the sounds of it, because you went to work for this next company, perhaps explain that and how you then made the next few moves over to you.

At some point in time when you become a little bit more of a senior consultant, you kind of lack the experience from the other side of the table being at a corporate or nonprofit organization or whatever. And so I felt that I had to experience that as well. And then I guess by coincidence again, or, you know, some things happened for a reason, if you will. A friend of mine who was also working in as a recruiter at that time and was asking me about a job and said, well, you're doing something in treasury, right? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that, that's right. He said, well, I have a position in Breda, the Netherlands, Perfetti Vomela, it's a confectionery company and would you be interested to, you know, to be introduced there? And said, yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's good timing. And that's how it all happened. And then a few months later, I was working for Perfetti Vermella. It was a great company, active in confectionery products, known from Mentos, Chupa, Chupes, Fratella and a couple more very successful small treasury group. Basically, before I joined, there was only one guy who was the treasurer. He was looking for some support for the basic treasury activities. And that's what I started to do daily cash management. It was an international company. So from my perspective, interesting to learn that in my previous role, I had been more focused on nonprofit organizations. And this was a different story. Active in emerging markets with, let's say, the challenges that come along, along with, like I said, international. So dealing with. With fx. And so that. That was kind of my, you know, my second job in. In my treasury education, I would call it. That made me understand, I think, the corporate world a little bit better, I should say, was a different place, a different culture, not being consulted. So working out of office base and understanding, getting to understand a little bit the rules of, you know, a corporate environment a little bit better. And at the same time, I think it was a very steady company. So there was not. The company was pretty successful, but from a corporate perspective, it was privately owned. It was pretty steady. So there was not a lot. A lot of change and things that were happening. And I think that drove me into. After, I think about four years into kind of the feeling that, you know, it's maybe time for something new. And I kind of had embraced treasury at that point in time. My boss, I worked very well with him, but he was also still at an age that, you know, retirement was far out. So in terms of succession within Treasury, I didn't see that happen also in, let's say, the foreseeable future. And I decided to apply for a job at Amgen, whereby they were looking for kind of a new team member that was supposed to succeed the international treasurer within, let's say, one to two years. That sounded pretty good for me. I. It was a, you know, a different organization. It was a US public company, Amgen, active in the pharmaceutical space. I had the potential to kind of develop myself more on the management front because I had to manage if I would grow into that role, I had to manage a team of three people. So I thought, well, that may be a good next step, different type of organization, management of people, so I can develop myself further. So that's what I did. I was hired there. Totally different company, US public company. It Was at the time that I think Enron was still pretty fresh on the minds of everybody and there was a lot of attention for Sox was introduced at that point in time. And that together with working for a pharmaceutical company I think made the whole experience totally different than Perfetti. Vomela was where what was privately owned was pretty straightforward, no nonsense versus engine like the big multinational pharmaceutical company highly regulated by the FDA and so forth. Let's say the rules of the game were totally different.

I want to jump in there. Sorry to interrupt, but just some of the younger listeners, obviously you and I have got a couple of gray hairs and claims to fame for me is I actually did recruit for Enron. Peter Russell, if you're listening, I still say sorry about that but I placed him with Enron and he's got some funny stories to tell about it about he couldn't see where all the cash was because there wasn't any cash. But on that and as you say subsequently that Sarbanes Oxley came through and everything else, can you just, you know, very basic detail explain to people about exactly what that meant and because you know a lot of people now just deal with it as part of their job and stocks and everything but they don't really understand the history of it if you like. So can you just maybe allude that as a trick professional yourself?

I think as a consequence of fraudulent activities that were happening at company Enron based here in the US I think the company went bankrupt basically as a result of lack of controls within the company. I think the result of that is from a regulatory perspective additional controls were required were built into legislation for for public companies in the US to meet minimum requirements that ultimately result in, let's say, representation of the company, of management of the company towards the outside world and the investors, what they publish and share with the public is true, which obviously went wrong with Enron where as a result of that's a fraud and not fully disclosing everything what's behind there, you know, they had not been fully transparent to the public and to the investors and it came as a surprise and ultimately they went bankrupt.

So be more explicit about the finances and everything else is key and transparency.

Absolutely. And I think the result of that event and let's say the Sarbanes Oxley act that was introduced, stricter controls and procedures were implemented in companies and you know, that's what I experienced at Amgen vs I came from a privately owned company, well family owned, small staff, pretty straightforward towards kind of this giant with a lot of rules, procedures, controls and so forth. So it was kind of different dynamics which for me was good to kind of understand and learn that there's another corporate world than I came from, so to speak. The other thing I would say is that where I had been working on headquarters, I was now working on a regional headquarters because Amgen was headquartered in California in the US the regional headquarters or shared service center if you will, was based in also in Breda in the Netherlands. Those dynamics were also totally different than I was used to. It was a great company. It was probably far more evolved in treasury than my previous company. But at the same time it was also in, you know, working as part of a shared service center, a focus on treasury operations, very operational. The other aspect that I kind of did not so much like is that in this company was a pretty top down approach at that point in time where I was used to work from headquarters and and was able to my opinion to bring value with IDs and stuff where here debt was also possible but to a limited extent because at the end of the day the treasury was driven by the people over in California.

Then within that short period you then moved on to Veon Group. Maybe just talk us through that. And this is the point I want to come to because then you've made eventually made the move to Darling in the US and everything else. And I think that sort of split between USA and Europe and control. And I think also I've noticed a lot because I've been doing some assignments recently and I had to explain to a US based client they were looking for a corporate finance person in the Netherlands. And I'm saying that the problem was a lot of US companies moved all their cash management operations to Europe when there were great tax breaks and had to have centers of substance and everything else. But they didn't move the corporate finance activity. So when I'm looking for a corporate finance person in the Netherlands, I'm fishing from a really good mature pool of really great treasury professionals. But I'm only looking at 10% of them. And of that 10% they're working a lot of the time for locally based Dutch companies which have got really great corporate finance centers and everything else. So it's a challenge to get them out there because they're enjoying those jobs. But you're there firsthand. And so you've seen and again we talked in our pre podcast call about the shift between locally based companies and maybe you do that with Veon Group and then the contrast between us European and where the Activity levels are. Because obviously I want to move on to Veon and then get to Darling. So maybe talk through, if you would, briefly on Veon and then how you found it within treasury as well.

Absolutely. So. And you pointed out exactly correct. You know, the treasury role in an international part of a business is usually focused on treasury operations and not on the corporate finance part or in my case also the FX part. And that's what basically decided me to move on to V on because I realized that I wanted to develop myself and grow broader and wanted to have, let's say, challenges and started at Veon and. Well, I can tell you I got a lot of challenges there at first. I think when I started big company had grown significantly the prior years by acquisitions to turn into the biggest European meat processing company in Europe. Basically having two activities, food or meat processor slaughterhouses and ingredients. We'll get to that a little bit later or as you probably recognize from the introduction, but. And there was no central treasury that really existed. There was an interim treasurer who recruited me as kind of his first recruitment at the same time. This was a group of about 10 billion revenue in the meanwhile. So a lot of challenges there. Everything had to be built from scratch. Basically the basics on cash management was a small group of banks that had funded all these acquisitions. The capital structure of corporate or the financing had to have to change. And then as a Treasury group, we were clearly understaffed to make that all possible, to basically make that change and build a Treasury organization. I started there as a Treasury manager to support the interim treasurer. But after six months, basically permanent treasurer was recruited. And I have to say that this guy, his name is Tom Swabe, is probably the guy that has had kind of most influence on my career or at least on the way treasury is being practiced. He and I built the treasury group there from let's say the two of us to group of eight, nine people. With me building a cash management infrastructure. He mainly focusing on the financing and recruited people over time, implement infrastructure, implemented cash pools across the globe, across hundreds of different legal entities, multiple countries and so forth. He kind of learned me to think more in terms of getting things done versus being the treasury professional, or I should probably say the treasury professional versus the business partner. Was a pretty difficult job at that time to get things done. It was major acquisitions were done. It was pretty decentralized organization and we wanted to centralize part of the treasury activities and all the people on board to get things done. And you know, that really changed my attitude and my way of Working a lot, driven by kind of his spirit and open mind to change things and also to sometimes compromise in maybe not having the perfect solution from a Treasury perspective, but having a solution and keep the people on board. I think he was very good at that.

How did he do that? You say, did he just come up with a really clear vision? You say he was very influential to you. And again, people listening to today, what was that about?

I think it was really more focused on the how and kind of the personal skill set and you know, how I could get things done and with who and you know, how you think, how you organize things in a, in a successful way versus the typical thing that we tend to do in treasury land. Focus on the treasury solutions only, if you will. He was definitely really focused on make sure that you get in contact with this guy, with that guy, because if you have these guys on board, you can move along, you can, you can make things work. He was also more kind of the personal coach that was continuously at me and saying, well, I should, I would do it like this or this. He was kind of coaching me more directly than I had ever experienced in that sense. And he was also, I guess pretty open and you know, straightforward to that which at the beginning was sometimes pretty confronting. But you know, we developed a pretty good relationship over time and you know, that ultimately worked out well for me and I think changed also a little bit the way I've been working since.

Then because I want to get into, you know, we're moving on into show and then this, the moving to Darling or you know, it was part of beyond. How did it sort of evolve and separate or you know, describe that for the viewers and then for the listeners rather. And again then the move to Texas, you know, because you, you know, Netherlands, Netherlands. I said at the beginning of the show you're trying to put on a Texas accent. You're not doing very well if I'm honest. You know, the guys in Texas my understand. So explain the development if you would.

So I think the second part of Veon that, I mean that that's kind of the introduction also to Darling, I guess is the first couple of years that I was working with Veon, we were kind of building the organization, but I think we ended up in a so called perfect storm where the financial crisis hit, the performance of Food Division was not good and as a consequence of all the acquisitions that the company had done, the company was pretty highly leveraged. So like I said, a perfect storm for trouble. And that's what we had to Deal with and suddenly from let's say, building a Treasury organization, we had to change breaking it up more or less. We went through a financial restructuring with a number of disposals as a result of the financial restructuring and working with the workout bankers versus working with the commercial bankers. And long story short, this ended up in selling. I think the valuable part of Veon being Veon Ingredients to Darling. This was a probably very interesting part of my career. It was really tough, you know, as a company. But also I think from a Treasury perspective, a lot of challenges that we had to deal with during that time. But very interesting I get from a personal and career perspective, I can tell you. But at the end of the day, I was part of that whole process with a very small group of people. The company was cut into two with the only ingredients being sold. And I had to decide with what I wanted to do. Did I want to stay with Veon and move on or did I want to go with vyond ingredients, basically which I did at the end. And that that decision was taken before I knew Darling was acquiring party. I led the separation of the treasury function because we had built that at the corporate level. So we had to kind of, you know, separate that from Veon. And when Dar when it became clear that Darling was acquiring V on Ingredients, I I kind of had in the back of my mind, you know, my. My engine experience like, hey, US company. So we're gonna be kind of a satellite from that and told what to do. Yeah, told what to do. This is probably gonna last like two years. And either they're done with me or I'm done with them. I don't know. We'll see how things. How things go. And I have to say the. The opposite is true. Darling was a. Prior to acquiring Veon Ingredients was a pretty much a domestic company as such, didn't have, you know, the treasury organization to kind of absorb this new organization into. So that gave me the opportunity to basically build the whole treasury organization from scratch. For the international organization is what we refer to now as, you know, previously V on Ingredients, that was really everything. Building or implementing a new. Selecting and implementing a new treasury management system that we've ultimately are using for the whole group now doing all kind of projects in the various regions in the world from cash management, FX policies, the whole policy framework, SOX implementation that referred to on the engine now also had to be introduced into the new organization that Darling acquired. Certain financing facilities. Even though the corporate finance function was was here in Texas, there were a number of financing Facilities that we, that we were implementing. And I think ultimately, and then I think different than under Amgen, had a very intensive relationship with the US over here. The treasurer for him was kind of this whole big acquisition as they doubled in size with this acquisition and the international aspects of it was also new for the organization and the him. So we had to collaborate pretty closely. So that was a totally different setting as with Amgen. And you know, from financial restructuring we went back to, you know, building a Treasury organization. And obviously there was a lot of fun because, you know, from my perspective and kind of at my stage in my career, I'm looking for challenges and, you know, ways to add value to the company rather than, you know, being part of a very steady, stable treasury community and let's say, do my thing. And that was, yeah, they were very interesting years, but at some point I also, you know, after a year or four where all the bigger projects were done, I also, you know, was starting to think and now what, what, what's next? The treasurer had already indicated that, you know, he did see me as his successor. But you know, when he did, he was, you know, 58 and also indicated that he was still going to work to till his 65th year or something. So yeah, that wasn't going to happen very soon, at least that's what I thought. And he was promoted to become the CFO. And you know, this opportunity came in 2018, basically a couple of months after he indicated that he did see me as his successor. And here we are today at Darling.

So he said he saw you as a successor. He's based in, in the US you're based in Europe. How did that come about with the move? Because a lot of people say to me, you know, and again, you've done some financing. But as we said earlier in the show, a lot of the financing is, you know, kept tightly in the US and things like that. How did then the proper move internationally come about? Did you. Was it just, well, the jobs here you've got to move or what was the situation? Because again, people will be wanting to know about that.

So you're right, the corporate finance function is in the US And I think that that's not different than many other US based companies. He did involve me over time more and more in the transactions that took place at corporate level. So I got to get involved more. And then staying in the Netherlands and doing that from there versus being here in the U.S. that our CEO simply said, well, this is a job that done out of the US and besides the Corporate finance function where there's also I think involvement of the CFO at times or definitely relatively often, but even the CEO at times when it comes to, you know, investor presentations and so forth. There was also more to the job specifically I would say US related, you know, employee stock plan, the pension plans, being part of the investment committee and a lot more. And there's also a team over there to be managed that's basically taking care of the North American treasury operations. And so it was pretty obvious that function is basically part of the US team. And then I think the second thing and that you may see that as a difference between the US and the European treasurer, if you will. I think the treasurer in the US is in many companies kind of an official officer of the company. So it has a specific status if you will. The treasury is just where kind of the company is. And so it was kind of a no brainer to make the movement. And then my boss cfo, well, he basically said, well I want you. I mean we had developed a good relationship over time. There was trust. He just simply said well I'm not considering anybody else, I want you for the job. So it was quite easy from that perspective. The flip side of it obviously is that you then have to also make your family comfortable with that, make sure that they are on the same page. And ultimately that's what we decided on. But yeah, that's how it went.

And you've now seen as you say, US corporates into Europe, US corporate into Europe, but with a different ethos and things. An example of that is you've moved across to the US office and everything else. Now you're in the us you've been there a few years. How would you contrast say U.S. treasury organizations perhaps with UK or European organizations? Is there a difference or what are the main differences you see between sort of treasury globally that you noticed because you've made that global move.

Yeah, there are probably a couple of differences. I mean we touched upon kind of the more centralized model here in the US versus European style is maybe a little bit less centrally or kind of top down as much as the US approach. Definitely different gas management practices. In Europe we have to deal with multiple country countries. Here we have, you know, one country and kind of one way of working if you will. One example ECAS management, the uses of checks versus electronic in Europe. Yeah, quite interesting, I have to say. And even our company and you know, active in a pretty traditional industry still having, processing a lot of checks and it's still pretty, pretty common. And the Majority of companies are definitely using it. And that's, it's quite interesting in all the, the developments that we were making through technology and stuff, that we still have that cultural differences. For sure. There's more of a hierarchy, I guess, here in the US than in Europe or definitely than in the Netherlands in terms of dealing with banks specifically. I think over here in the US Relationship management is way more active than in Europe. There's more emphasis by banks on, you know, to have a very active relationship. You know, whether that's by meetings, introducing all their specialists, having, you know, lunch dinners and so forth. It's, it's not that that's not done in Europe, but there's definitely more emphasis on kind of managing this relation and keep this relationship alive.

How is that with this new virtual world of COVID and everything else? How is affected it? Or have you seen the guys trying to make more of an. Send me more of an effort, you know, or how the guys got, the relationship guys got through that?

Yeah, I think they're struggling a little bit with that. But there have been a couple of kind of creative ideas. One bank, like a virtual cocktail hour with the team of one bank and our treasury team, you know, to keep the communication alive generally for all these meetings, you, you, you just do virtual meetings, I guess, and that, that's what happens everywhere. So I guess that we're not unique there. So all the kind of the relationship events that are typically being organized happen virtual. Another virtual event was like a cooking clinic that one other bank, so they become a little bit more creative and, but that's just two examples of that. But, but other than that, I think everybody's going virtual and, you know, whatever needs to be done needs to be done. We, we did our refinancing last month. Our credit agreements, you know, all the communication, the whole process upfront, we all did it remotely and, you know, ultimately.

Worked out well and with, you know, with this new treasury world and we've got, you got all the virtual stuff. Let's move on from that. It's more. What, what would you see as, you know, the biggest challenges coming for you as a treasurer moving forward? You know, we've, we, we've got back to. Starting to move back to a normality, some people coming back in the office, but a lot of people not back in the office at all for a while. That aside, you as a treasurer, you know, sitting there at your desk and things like that. What are the challenges coming at you that you're thinking, right, we need a plan. For this or these are the biggest issues that are going to be on my desk this side of Christmas into 2021. What are you thinking?

We are in a fortunate position, to be honest with you, that our business has been doing well throughout the crisis. So. So we've been operating everywhere around the globe where our business is deemed to be essential. And even though we've had our challenges, logistical challenges, and in some segments of the business also definitely feel some pain, but overall we're having a financial performance that is really good and great. So knock on wood, really happy with that. What I can see as a result of this crisis, and maybe that's not so visible yet, is that I do see there's a lot of businesses or industries that will suffer for a longer time from this crisis with having had such a hard hit, having support from the government, having to do additional financing, having to lever up and so forth. So I think that especially the companies that have been suffering will not be there yet. 2021, if I translate that to treasury at the end of the day. And that's one of the lessons I learned definitely at Veon when we were going through difficult times, all what matters is cash. And it sounds as a cliche, but it's really true. I mean, when it really comes to that point in time, when you as a company have financial problems, it's all about cash. And definitely that's where the treasurer comes in. And treasury can make the difference to a certain extent, of course, because the business has to pick up is the basis for the cash flow generation. But the management of that cash and the difference that can be made by efficient cash management structures, working capital solutions, working capital improvement programs, getting financing done in the public or in the private markets, etc. I think every example that I just gave is going to be more than ever crucial for especially those companies that are under pressure.

Yeah, you know, it's that strength of balance sheet, isn't it? Because that's going to give you the resilience to get through it.

It's absolutely true. I fully agree. And I think the other thing that the crisis has probably learned us is work from home, work remotely, is that, you know, automation and being able to kind of execute the job is also very important more than ever. So I think, you know, companies also come to the conclusion that the work that is being done and the processes that we as a Treasury group have to execute on a daily basis, you know, if not done or, you know, if not fully done, you want to kind of upgrade that to the Next level and you know, automate as much as possible.

I mean we got deep dived in there, you know, and we let it go into a lot of the detail about some of the roles there. Sometimes we get a bit more about, you know, the state of treasury and I think, you know, we've got actually really touched on that in already. So what I want to do is, as we come towards the end of today's program is we'll put your details about you and your Background in the LinkedIn and LinkedIn profile in the show notes. But if you reflect back over your, your experiences, you've got some great stuff and you know, potentially have a chat in the future about some of the differences between uk, US corporates. I think that's a fascinating thing because you've transcended both and stepped across. But when you look at your LinkedIn profile or someone's look at it today and they say, right, actually I'd like to have a background like Martin, that would be great. What would you say? What tips would you give those guys?

I would definitely recommend take as many opportunities as you get, especially in the beginning of your career, do different things, don't stick to kind of doing the same routine every day. But change are open for change, whether that's within your company, whether that's change of companies, whether that's accepting a job outside of your home, so to speak, your home base. Do that because I think the more you do, the more different things you do, the more you learn and the more you develop yourself. The other kind of lesson I learned is we in the treasury world sometimes get to live in our own little bulb and are sometimes over engineering, kind of approaching our challenges, sometimes a little bit too academically and that makes it sometimes difficult to get things actually done. Sometimes just also be pragmatic and get things done and maybe, you know, score the 90% and not the 100% that you intended. And then I think the further you get into your career, you know, the more important it's going to be to have your network both inside and as well as outside your company. And I think that's going to determine whether you're going to be successful or not.

No, I think it's great. I think, and again you alluded to that earlier when you learned from one of your previous bosses. So I think it's good, I think being pragmatic and just having that realistic view, if that's the right way to put it. So thing, I think that's what has really come across, just being a practical treasury person.

Absolutely. And be a partner more than be the treasury professional. Be a partner to your colleagues within the company. Yes.

So, Martin, thank you for your time today. You've been a lovely guest. I think people will get, get some really good stuff. We'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so they can connect to you if you want to or not. And, yeah, look forward to growth and development of you over at Darling. So thank you very much for your time, sir.

Thank you, Mark. I really appreciated the, the opportunity to be on there on the podcast. So thanks again and hope to speak soon again.

Have to speak soon. Thanks very much.