What It’s Like to Work in Treasury Recruitment with The Treasury Recruitment Team

Foreign. Welcome to episode 150, yes, 150 of the Treasury Career Corner podcast. And as you can hear, a little bit different music. We're going to be just freshening up the show a little bit and. And it's crazy. Over 52,000 downloads from you guys. How did that happen? It's been amazing. I'm loving the journey with you guys sharing the stories. I'm your host, Mike Richards. We've got fresh new music, we've got some amazing future guests lined up for you each and every week. Amazing fresh new content. Continuing to talk to treasury professionals about how they've build their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasure profession going to next. But I thought, do you know what, it's a bit of a time to freshen things up, so we're changing things. But also, I thought it was also time to maybe for you guys to hear from the team here at the treasury recruitment company who helped me make the amazing podcast. It is every week and I want to pay some credit to them. So we've got the lovely Carly who goes through the hassle of getting you guys on the show and getting that. We've also got want to say a big thanks out to content 10x you'll they do it every week. But then you're also going to hear from the other members of our team. So you've got aa, who's returning from maternity leave, we got Joe, who's running our UK desk, we've got Katie running Europe. And you've got me. I'm sorry about that. You can't have everything, but, you know, it is. It is what it is. So these guys get this great, amazing guest and everything else. I. We're going to try and not make it a total sales fest. It's more about trying to tell you about what we do, why we bring it to you. We've got these interviews with each member of the team, as I say on the show every week. That's enough from me. Let's talk to some of our guests, which happen to include me. And so, you know, we're going to start today's episode with the lovely Carly. Now, Carly is my PA and our recruitment coordinator. She basically keeps me on track and basically makes. Well, I was just looking at my notes. It makes my life amazing by doing all the stuff that I don't want to do, give it to her. But I thought it was key that we started today's episode by bringing Carly on because she's, you know, Much better at just supporting me, making all of our lives right here and stuff like that. But we're going to start off with Carly because she's actually been in recruitment for not as long as me, but nearly as long. But, Carly, how did you maybe get your first start into recruitment or when. When did it all start for you?

I have been in recruitment quite a long time now. So, as you say, I first started in recruitment way back in 2001. Now actually started as a recruitment consultant working for a specialist accountancy recruitment firm, then took a bit of a different direction after a few years, joined another specialist recruiter, this time in the oil and gas industry with them for about 10 years. So worked various support roles, working for both the recruitment and the operation team, and then joined the lovely treasury recruitment company, which I've been here for, blimey, about four years now. So, as you say, I support you as your pa. I'm also the recruitment coordinator, so I support the wider team and do a lot of general office day to day stuff as well.

And you obviously, I know you've worked for us a number of years and we're a bit different to a lot of recruiters. You know, some are the phones and do this and everything else, and you're supporting all that activity. You know, what would you say, looking over what you enjoy most about it and maybe working for us, but obviously they're working with me. I mean, that's a pleasure, obviously. But, you know, what do you enjoy most about it, would you say?

You know what, I really love the fact that every day is different. You know, my role itself is incredibly varied, so I'm inevitably involved in most areas of the business in some way or another. So that definitely keeps me on my toes, if you like. We're also quite a small company. Everyone's really supportive in the team, everybody really lucks in. We already help each other out and we're all just making sure that we make the business as successful as possible and we help each other to do that.

So I threw you in the deep end four years ago, came on board, oh, this is nice. And, you know, quite small company and all this stuff, but you, you and I both seen it change, develop challenges. You've seen, you know, what are the key ones that you've really seen that have sort of come out, you know, getting people listening. Today they're going to go, wow, those guys are doing lots of stuff. What have you seen? Sort of thing.

Yeah, the key things that I've seen is that we've just Got busy and busier. Our online brand in particular has increased massively over the years and I think that's really helped us open up opportunities in different locations. So we've had a lot more roles in places like the Middle East, US and Europe and it's really grown that market for us and I think, you know, that in itself has introduced a lot more challenges for us, but you know, with different time zones and cultures and things. But it's also made it more exciting.

Yeah, no, I agree. And it is, as you say, it sometimes makes for a longer day, but, you know, suddenly getting calls from one side of the world and then at the end it's like, or suddenly getting emails and, and stuff like that. So it's been great for you so far, but and long may it continue. And obviously you're, you've seen it go all the way through as we look towards the future and then in a minute we're going to go, we're going to talk to Avra, who's just returning from maternity leave soon, and Joe and Katie and you even get to me at the end. Sorry about that, guys, but kind of everything, you know, future treasury and treasury recruitment market. What are you seeing as, you know, what's happening sort of thing?

As I said before, I just see it getting busier, to be honest. I think obviously we've been hit hard with the pandemic and things, as everybody has, but I think there's definitely signs of things returning to normal, albeit a new normal. You know, companies are working in a different way now. People have been more flexible, flexible working and things. But overall I think, you know, the signs are positive and I think the market would definitely, you know, go back to being vibrant and more positive as it was.

Yeah, definitely. Amazing. First start there from Carly. I know she hates this stuff, so I'm not going to keep her any longer. We're going to dial in now Ava and she'll do her bit and then we'll move through and just thank you very much for doing it. I know you, you know, you, you love. I think you're great at this, this branding stuff that.

Thank you.

It's just some of our clients, you know, they can say, oh God. But if, if Carly can do it as amazingly as that, I'm sure you guys can take. Thank you, Carly. And we'll move on to.

Thank you.

Passing over to Ava is soon to rejoin us actually after maternity leave, but as we saw on LinkedIn the other day, remind us it was a two year anniversary. Avra, I'M going to pass it straight across to you as a horse do on the podcast as well. Walk us through. You were new to recruitment and, you know, what was your background and things? So back to you.

Prior to coming to the treasury recruitment company, I worked as a manager for a concession. I'd been doing that role for three years. My previous work is retail. The reason I was good at retail was mainly the fact that I can talk to people really well and I enjoy chatting to people. And so I was like, right, I need to challenge myself. I want to establish a real career for myself. So I saw the advert to work at a Treasury recruitment company and just thought, I could do this. I've recruited my own staff. So, yeah, give this a go and see how I get on.

And it was fantastic. And then you've. But you're still just sort of just finishing up your maternity leave. You know, when you first came into Treasure Recruitment. We're going to hear from Joe later on the episode. You know, it's new to him, New to you. What. What was it like, you know, what were your preconceptions, maybe, about recruitment? And then was treasury recruiting the same and, you know, what was it like?

My thoughts of recruitment was just kind of the mass recruiters, like, you're in Deeds, where it's kind of fast turnover. It's one job in, one job out, and there's not really a huge amount of contact with the candidates. There's not a huge amount of candidate care necessarily either. Whereas when I started at the treasury recruitment company, it was completely different because it's a more of a boutique specialist recruitment company focusing purely on Treasury. There's a lot of care with the clients. We build really good relationships with them and also with the candidates. Like, we build fantastic relationships with candidates on a personal level. For me, I've got, obviously, since I'm on maternity leave at the moment, I've had candidates message me, sort of asking how I am, how my daughter is, and that's been really lovely because it's clearly what we're able to do with our candidates isn't just a fact of we'll place you in a job, it's we'll place you in a job, but we'll stay in touch and we'll make sure that you're happy and just build real friendships as well, which I think really is a real positive. And it's completely different, I think, to other recruitment agencies out there.

Yeah, it is, and I think that's one. You touched on it there, that it's about that long term relationships and, you know, it's lovely to see and you know, we've been getting the alerts to say, you know, people are sort of saying thumbs up to you and congrats and you're coming back to join us later this year. When you come back, obviously, you know, you've, you've had a baby during pandemic. Well done.

Yeah, thank you.

My pleasure. And then congrats on that. And you. But you're back in the, the world of treasury recruitment. What, you know, what have you missed about it or what, you know, as we, you know. Then before we move on to Joe, what, what are your thoughts about coming back and things?

I'm excited. I miss my candidates, I miss keeping in touch with them, seeing how they are. And I. The favourite bit is obviously placing people, but it's not because you put someone in a job, it's because when I've placed them, they're really happy in their roles. Before I went on maternity, I placed an amazing candidate, Anglian Water. And just to hear that she's still thriving, she's loving it is the best news for me because it's like, actually I've really helped someone in the future, so I cannot wait to get back. Get back chatting to everyone and doing it all over again.

Lovely. Well, Avra, amazing to catch up with you. Looking forward to you coming back later in the year and yeah, we'll. Well, we'll see you soon and people can connect to you after the podcast and everything else. But now we're going to move on to Joe, so see you soon.

See you soon.

Bye.

So, Joe, you were new to the world of treasury recruitment, just as Aira was the wonderful world of treasury recruitment. Can you perhaps give us your background and then we'll talk about your time at the treasury recruitment company and up to now, which areas you cover as well. So over to you.

I left college and started working at a pub for my friend. Really enjoyed my time at the pub. It gave me a nice bit of flexibility, meant I could go traveling, which has always been a big passion of mine. After working in the pub for a little bit, I finally decided I think I'd outgrown it. And speaking to Mike, he offered me a role at the treasury recruitment company. Now I went traveling for four or five months and really enjoyed that absolutely fantastic time. And Mike told me to give him a shout when I returned. Of course, upon my return, first thing I did, got on the phone to Mike, was really, really keen to get started and I suppose the rest is sort of history, really.

You were new, Joe, to the world of treasury criminal. There's lots of people are. When you came in, you obviously we coached you and trained you and you first thought, oh, I love these treasury guys. What have you found since you started? And I know we just heard from Ava there. She really enjoys talking to our candidates and clients and, you know, the friendliness and stuff. And later on in the episode today, when I talked to Katie, she Treasury not only is new, but also when we talk to really interesting treasury people. You said to me before how much you enjoy talking to treasurers because they're really intelligent people, treasury professionals right across the levels. What's it been like for you?

Well, you're absolutely right and I personally, I've really enjoyed it in my past experiences, rather, I have been a candidate for past recruitment agencies and I just found a bit of an issue was in general, especially for general recruitment companies, you tend to be treated as a commodity. It's a bit more like a numbers game. And it was a bit of a concern of mine initially, going into this world of recruitment, like I say, which is completely new to me, thankfully, the way Mike tends to run the treasury recruitment company means that, for someone like myself, provides me the means to get great candidate care. And as we are a specialist company, it means that I can also talk to treasury people and I get to solely focus on the aspect of Treasury.

Wow. Sounds like a real love fest for us. But obviously there are some. We've been through some challenging times as well. Joe, as we now move out of pandemic and things like that, what have you started to see on your desk? Because then we're going to move on to Katie, who runs our European desk. You're working with me, helping me run the uk, you know. Well, it's really starting to pick up with some more interim roles and some permanent stuff coming through. You know, just today we were talking about a couple of other inquiries from clients, finally began, inbound stuff. Rather than us all going out there, what's it been like? And, you know, you were confident in the future. What would you say?

Well, yeah, absolutely. And actually, I think for someone like myself, it was really strange because I joined the company, as I'm sure you're aware, at a very strange time. It was just leading into the second lockdown, so sort of September, October time, and it meant that the market was having a bit of a lull. But I actually, looking back at it, I'm very grateful for it. It meant a few Months to get to grips with the role itself, introduce myself properly to lots of candidates and get a lot of conversations going and allowed me that when the market did start to revitalize itself, I mean, I could hit the ground running and just be able to kind of pick up hopefully where I would leave off.

And I'm looking forward to Joe having lots of success and, you know, helping lots of people, placing lots of treasury professionals as we help them get on with their careers. But anyway, enough from Joe now we're going to make the move across, well, to Katie who runs our European desk. Obviously Katie's worked for a number of years with me. Lucky lady, putting up with me. I do apologize. I know you can't have everything. Katie, take us back to the dim, distant past. How did you. What's, what's your background? How do you, before you discover the wonderful world of treasury recruitment, over to you.

Hi. So I've been in recruitment now, as you've kind of said, for a long period of time, over 16 years. I started my career with a specialist retail recruitment business. So I really learned the ropes from the ground up and got my foundations in place for recruiting. It was a very interesting time to be in recruitment back then, particularly retail as it was so fast paced and it was a very competitive market on the agency side. I love that though, as I'm definitely not someone who is afraid of a challenge. I progress really quickly within the business and by the end of my four and a half years there, I was managing one of the top performing teams in the business. From there, I then decided to make the transition onto the other side of the fence and I went into in house recruitment. So I headed up recruitment teams for a large fashion retail chain, then a smaller higher end fashion brand, and then finally my last in house role was at Hotel Chocolat.

Sorry to jump in, but what was that like? What was it? What was the. You crossed the fence, if you like. So you've gone, you've gone that, you know, you've gone recruitment to in house and obviously it helps when we're talking to clients and then you've come back across before we get into, you know, working with us, you know, how does that make it different from just your, you know, typical high street recruiter, a recruiter maybe that works for one of our rivals, you know, why is that important, do you think?

Going on the other side of the fence and then back again if you like, it really gives you far more of insight into, I guess, the challenges, the frustrations of being on either side, from either party. So if you're a client or you're an agent working with a client, I think for me it's around actually how do you really form those strong long term partnerships with clients and candidates? And I think it's easier to work with HR and in house teams now because I understand how they want to work with their agencies. The time that I had in house, all of those roles were very fast paced, they were very challenging. I got to recruit across all departments at all levels. You know, you had various different hats on. That whole piece gave me valuable experience for the role that I'm doing now. I then made the decision after about 10 odd years to get back into agency recruitment again. I wanted to have the variety but also wanted to become more of a specialist. So I moved into bespoke specialist fashion agency again where I worked with a multitude of clients across the globe doing various different levels of roles. And that was before I joined the team here.

Again, I don't want to just do this as a sales fest for the treasury recruitment company, but let's do it anyway. Treasury, we're recruiting at the moment. I'm saying to people, you don't need to know anything about treasury to get into Treasury. It's about the recruitment skills, about listening to people. You know, people don't move treasury jobs because, you know, they don't like their treasury management system where they're working or the way that cash is approached or the FX risk thing. It's because they, you know, they're struggling with their boss or they're not getting the progression or the job's not challenging them. You know, there are other things about lately about working from home and things. So you came in to a specialist company, what specialist? Treasury. What's that been like for you, would you say?

I mean, to be perfectly honest, I didn't know much about treasury before joining the business. Throughout my time before, I had recruited various finance positions and I really enjoyed working on them. And I think that there are to some extent some crossovers, but it's not. Treasury was never an area that I touched on. I think for me to be a good recruiter, it's as you said, it's about understanding the individual, their motivations for seeking a new role or on the flip side, understanding a client and what they're looking for in a new hire. I don't believe that you need to be a Treasury expert to do this. It's more about being good at recruitment. And I think for me over the time that I've been working at the treasury recruitment company. The actual physical treasury understanding has been fed to me, if you like, through my clients and candidates, and that's where the expertise has come in. I do think that the foundations of recruitment remain the same wherever you go. I found that there are. There were some differences on both the candidate and client side from the different industries. Definitely. You know, when I've worked in fashion, retail, it's a different way of working to working with treasury individuals and treasury clients. But actually, now I live and breathe Treasury. Yes.

When you say it's different, what do you mean by that? You know, is it because, you know, there's a different kind of ethos, or they're just, you know, because they're dealing within fashion. So there are certain kind of people, or is it more, you know, the.

Levels or what, within sort of the fashion side? It's diff. It's. It's different in terms of the people. I think when you're looking, when you're searching, a lot more involved in the people and the culture, even though, you know, in treasury culture in businesses is important. But I think when it comes to treasury individuals, they have a certain toolkit and it's more straightforward to some extent. Whereas in fashion, there's a lot more sort of hand holding, there's a lot more restrictions in terms of they only want people from a similar business, only within fashion, retail. Whereas in treasury, you've got your toolkit, you can move different industries without a problem.

Obviously, we, you know, one of the reasons I brought you on board, we were very successful.

Mistake.

Sorry, say again?

A mistake.

No, no, never, never. It's been brilliant and. But it was. It was an interesting one because we'd not lost our focus, but we were trying to support the uk, Europe, the us and, you know, I knew that I needed an experienced recruiter and that's why board. And it's been brilliant since you've been there. You know, no mistakes there. It's actually been brilliant. But it's. You sort of re. Establish yourself across our major market. Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg is a big one for us as well. We're really sort of, you know, going back there and we've done some really great campaigns in all of those over the past few years since you've been on board. You know, most recently, great deputy treasurer role in Belgium and things like that now. I mean, we spoke about this and we speak about this regularly, but, you know, we're based in the uk, but I think the pandemic has, you know, proved that Most people could not work remotely, but you can be based wherever it is to actually service it, as long as you're great recruiters. But why would someone would you put it without just being a total sales fist? But someone listening today, they're listening from France, Belgium, wherever it might be, and they're thinking, well, why would I go to a specialist treasury recruitment company over going to my local agency? What, how, what are the things that you, you think are important there?

It's important to say, and again, not as a sales pitch, but we are a specialist company and so actually we have pre existing networks within each of the local regions. We're very active in those treasury communities. So, you know, as you've kind of touched on, we visit our markets, obviously, outside of the pandemic, we speak at conferences. The difference is that the majority of agencies are generalists. So actually they may have touched on in the past a Treasury position, but it's not something that they work roles that they work on day in, day out, like we do.

We talked about it as well and I think there's a speed and efficiency thing which people want to fill jobs. And, you know, we've said that, you know, and I've, I've done this with clients. They said, why would I go to you over my current recruiter, who's my search firm and stuff? I said, well, you know, they'll do exactly the same job as us. Oh, right. I said, but the fact is it will take them six to eight weeks to get to the, the short list or the long list that we've had for you today. Oh, oh, okay. And I'm like, no, you know, they're people that are looking for any kind of job, not just a job with you. Whereas, you know, when we came up, you know, again, when we did this recent campaign in, in Belgium, we had a really great response, didn't we? And we both. Yeah, yeah, loved working on it. And actually what happened from that was, you know, and the client was like, that's why I came to you guys, you know, because I know, you know, he's known us for many years, not used us until he needed to. We're there in the event of need, you know, I was banging on about it and things like that. So, you know, pandemic wise, you know, we've been through it, we, you know, we've survived it, if you like. And, you know, I've been quite lucky with some of the roles that I've been doing globally with some companies out in the Middle east and various and stuff like that. But what's the market been like for you and across Europe? As we sort of wrap up in your section, then you get your own back and get to ask questions.

I think, as with all businesses globally, Covid has had an impact on the market. I think last year, a lot of businesses and the majority of treasury departments were very much in crisis management mode. And with Europe, they were sort of in a phase than we were in the uk. I saw a lot of European clients continue to recruit. It was a more lengthy process and it wasn't as much of a priority as it was before, but they continued to recruit. One of the areas that was new to them was about onboarding people remotely. I had business in France. They started two candidates remotely before it was safe to relocate them over to France. I was working with a client in Germany, so it was ticking along, but it was taking longer. I think, you know, the European treasury market's come alive again. We successfully placed deputy treasurer for a client in Belgium. We've been working on assignments in Germany and Switzerland, and we're continuing to see movement and roles coming in now with two of my clients, and actually possibly a third that I'm talking about with now is that if they can't find the people, the local market, they are now looking at the talent that they need being placed in a remote location where they've got an additional entity. So for them, it's about finding the right person. And actually, because remote working now will continue to happen, at least with my European clients, until September, but actually ongoing, a lot of them are saying, I'm quite happy to recruit somebody remotely that would be willing, when it's safe to do so, to travel to our head office, you know, maybe once a month or something like that, but actually where we've got another entity. So that's kind of a new thing that's coming into play. And it seems to be discussions that I'm having with more and more clients. And I think the kind of pace of roles coming in and those kind of changes, I don't see them stopping. I see it continuing until July, August time, when historically Europe closes down for summer. And I think after the last kind of 18 months, well, it's nearly 18 months, I guess, of the whole pandemic. I think people will take that break across Europe.

Why bother to use TRC? Why bother to use any recruitment company over LinkedIn? You know, I keep seeing, you know, people, you know, I know some of the reasons in my head, and we'll sort of just explore Those briefly, but you know, what value do we add over to, you know, over LinkedIn? Surely they can just, you know, people can just advertise on LinkedIn. What have you been seeing with your European clients? Because I know, you know, you and I just talk about this, that you see a client put it out there and then the floodgates open. But what have you seen there?

Obviously I used to do that as well. I think what's been happening is that you've got an in house team that I suppose if you compare them to agencies are more generalists. We know that treasury very, very specialist it requires, it's a harder to fill role than if they've got another kind of position on like customer service or something like that. And actually a lot of the in house team don't really understand what's the requirements if you like. So I think that's why they default much quicker to an agency and especially a specialist because of the timelines. It's become even more important to sort of strengthen that team and I think it's around using an agency that's got pre existing relationships. It's going to make the process quicker and you're going to know that it's in a safe pair of hands to find the right person. My current clients in Switzerland, you know, had done their own search. Her exact words to me was, I don't have time to go deeper into this. When you advertise the role, you don't necessarily get the caliber that you want. You know, coming from in house, I always wanted the people that weren't actively applying for the positions. That means that you do a dedicated search or you go to an agency that have those people.

Wow, Katie, thank you very much for all that. Yeah, we didn't want to be a complete, you know, us and look at us, look at us. It's more trying to, you know, get across to people, you know, why you run Europe and why you're doing a great job. And as it starts to come back, you know, we're nicely positioned sort of thing. But as always, this is a horrible bit. You know, when I do the usual weekly podcast, I try and say to people, it's your show, you get to talk. Well, unfortunately guys, you get to listen to me kind of everything, I suppose. But you know, did show up and did subscribe to the show. I mean I hope people don't unsubscribe, but you'll tend to get your own back on your boss. What questions do you have for me, Katie? Weird.

I think that you Know people know that you've kind of been in recruitment for a while now. A bit of an old hat about it, I guess it'll be good for people that don't really necessarily know your background, just to get an understanding of, you know, how you got to where you are now.

So when I was a small child, I know I've heard that with some, some candidates recently that literally start off with someone's at school. I'm like, can we jump to university? Well, actually, I'll start there. I. Weirdly enough, a lot of people don't know. You know, sometimes they say facts about people you don't know. I'm a fully qualified primary school teacher and found myself as a Treasury recruiter 30 years later. No, I originally did a teaching degree and actually was talking to a client about it the other day, an education group we were doing some recruitment for, and I said I was doing supply teaching or substitute teaching, as they call it in the us, and they said, you should do recruitment. And I was like, recruitment? Not sure. Didn't have, you know, that stronger reputation at the time. And I said, well, what do you do? And they said, well, you talk to people and they pay you. And I thought two things I like and can do, be paid, that is, and everything else. So I started to talk to teachers and that was great, placing them into various schools and things. And then after about three years, was doing well at the group. I wanted progression and. And, you know, I had a recruitment to recruitment guy and that the people that don't know that's someone that places recruitment consultants into other recruitment companies. I'd never do that because they spend all their day talking to recruiters like us. So basically the guy said, oh, you should do financial recruitment. I was like, really? And I'm not sure about that. And he said, mike, it's twice as much pay because the people get paid twice as much as teachers, as a minimum. I was like, right, where do I sign? And that was it. And I joined a company called Robert Walters, very big UK financial recruiter. And when I turned up, they didn't have a Treasury division at all. They said, look, we got this list of treasury names, talk to the people. Which I did. Called my way through the 250 names, got to the end of it. Lots of people have moved on, literally physically and everything else. And I found myself right back at the beginning. And so it was networking, it was pre LinkedIn then going and meeting lots of treasurers, finding out what they did. And even then I just got an in, you know, I loved talking to treasurers, I love treasury professionals and stories in the industry, found that, you know, treasury itself is just fascinating because a lot of finance, when people ask me at dinner party or went out with friends and so what's treasury then? So, well, you've got, you know, financial control, which is today's money has to be done and looking back over it and things like that. You've got tax moving the money left and right and making sure you minimize the tax bill. Then you've got treasury and that's about today's money and all the future and all the different things you're going to do with it. Are you going to go buy companies? You can do exciting areas and that's why I've always found it. And, and so that's what I did. Did very well there for a number of years. And then I thought, right, where am I going next? Was approached by a search firm, joined them to do executive search, but still focusing on Treasury. They wanted me to do other generalist areas. But I'd fallen in love with treasury by then. And back in 2002, I set up what was then called Mr. Recruitment, as in my richest recruitment. A bit of self love there, but it was more just me and a friend talking one day and he said, you could be Mr. Recruitment or Mr. I was like, yeah, that'll do. And we kept that for ages. And then about six or seven, I think it was about seven years ago, I was doing a lot of stuff, you know, story, brand and looking at various other bits about honing your message so that people knew exactly what you did. And we do treasury recruitment and we do it on a global scale. So we branded as the Treasury Recruitment company and we've just grown and grown. You know, we cover globally. It's been good fun. Enough talking, I need some questions.

I know. Since starting the treasury recruitment company, what would you say has been sort of your biggest success story? I know you're going to have to pinpoint one of many. Are you able to share with us?

Yeah, I think there's a few. I think, you know, there's the people that I work with. I think it's always been good. I mean, you heard earlier in the show from Joe and Avra and Carly and, you know, work with some great people and, you know, and, you know, bringing someone like Joe who was new to recruitment and everything else, it's sort of the satisfaction and yourself and, you know, things, but you're an experienced recruiter, so it's like, you know, With Joe, it was about bringing the good bits of recruitment, showing him how to do it and, you know, and coaching him with yourself and bringing you on board. Katie. It was, you know, you'd work for a number of recruitment companies and it wasn't being, you know, well, how many calls have you done today? How many of you know, and they're being this, this stick to beat you with. Recruitment's not about that. It's about having great relationships with your candidates and clients, talking to them. And you might talk to them today and then you might not do a piece of business with them for three, five years, but every year you're catching up with them, you're giving them advice about their salary or you're helping them. So I think that, you know, I know that's a big one. I think probably one of the biggest successes recently recruited a global treasurer for one of our clients out in what was Saudi Arabia, you know, the biggest placement I've ever done, you know, and amazing. But then also again, I've not, you know, people say, oh yeah, placing that big role. Well, actually for me it's more than that. It's actually now about. And we've continued the recruitment. I think we've now recruited seven members of the team globally and we're about to do another role for them, you know, coming up in the US and just growing that way through clients that trust us know, like, and trust. And that's the thing, isn't it, to really get to know us that.

Exactly.

You've joined trc. What would you say you. You've, you've found has been your biggest success or your thoughts about it, really?

Because those roles don't come on sort of six monthly or yearly or anything. It is about really building that partnership and it's not just about that role at that time, it's about actually supporting them going forward. And you know, our client in Belgium who we placed deputy treasurer for, as you mentioned, you know, he's worked with us before, but actually it's been a long time since he's had the need to recruit for another position. So actually he wouldn't have necessarily come to us if it hasn't been for that continual touch base and working on that relationship. Because those roles don't come as often as in other industries. It's about what else can we do to support the treasury communities? What, you know, so we're very conscious about the content that we post on LinkedIn, the podcast, which we'll come on to later. And being at those events is all for us, sort of the service that we want to provide our clients and.

Candidates and you touch on there and I know we were going to talk about, and I'll just jump in with about, you know, personal branding and LinkedIn and all that stuff and why, you know, we're doing a few more sessions, Katie and I, you know, for the Austrian Treasures Association. I've just done one for Ohio, which is going live the next day or so. A lot of people have sort of said, oh, you know, it's personal branding thing. And yeah, when I first started it, it wasn't a big thing and now it is. You know, you have to think about your social media profile because it's out there all the time, 24 7. You know, it's either selling yourself on or not selling yourself and you can't afford to, you know, take risks with it. You've got to protect it, as it were. So that's one of the key things.

And what else have you seen sort of in the world of treasury recruitment change? Obviously, that's one kind of area that's become more of a focus. Is there any kind of other key things that have sort of changed since you've been doing this?

Yeah, I think, I think the access and, you know, content and information and the, you know, the flip side, there's also information overload. There's a lot of people going, crumbs. You know, there's so much out there, but actually that, that's a positive and negative, it's trying to sift through it. You know, you go on our website and again, it's not just to be a, you know, constant sales pitch, it's much more that, that's why, you know, we've just re, we're just redoing our Treasury TV area. So go to treasurytv.com and in, in there you'll get lots of videos and lots of advice and lots of practical advice. We did, back in the summer, you know, when it was, you know, the pandemic, midst of the pandemic, people couldn't do anything and I miss it. Actually. We're gonna, we're gonna try and do some more of these group calls. We did, you know, Katie, myself and Ara, we hopped on these Bounce Back where we did the six week course where we help people bounce back and people going, are you charging for this? I was like, no, because it's the middle of a pandemic. No one's got any money. You know, everyone's up against it, but there are still people that need stuff and we did our bounce Back program. It's just brilliant. And I look back at some of the, I look actually some of our group calls the other day, and it was great to give back. And I think that's the thing. It's much more, you know, you don't have to. Have to go and meet everyone for a coffee face to face. We can zoom people, we can do that. But people want advice. You know, people need, you know, advice from, you know, from us. And, you know, and it's, it is, it's easy to go and get it. You can go on the web, you can find it really quickly sort of.

Thing that kind of leads us on to talking about your podcast because again, that is about sort of showcasing people's experience. When you kind of see other businesses sharing podcasts, you feel sometimes that that's a platform to sort of showcase their own business. It's two questions for me. What was your inspiration in starting the podcast that have been sort of hugely successful and continue to do so? And would you say that that's true of your podcast, that it's a forum for you to sort of showcase us as a business?

Yeah, I think one, one, one sort of leads into another, just as you say. But the, the reason we, I did it with the inspiration. I originally thought about doing a podcast 10 years ago, you know, before podcasts were really there. And actually, I look back, I saw some notes the other day and they said, do a podcast. But my original thought back then, I'm glad I didn't do it because I think it would have been rubbish. I think it would have been. And I, well, I chose not to do it because I didn't want it to be rubbish. And I knew, you know, because I thought, oh, I'll do about recruitment and things like that. And I thought, do you know what if I did recruitment, Recruitment, I listened to some recruitment podcasts. I loved some of them. You know, there's a few that I've, you know, subscribed to, a few I don't. But you know, one, I love recruitment mentors podcasts where he show me talks to lots of different recruiters and you find out about their stories. I love hearing them about their stories. That's brilliant to me. I'd actually set up my podcast, the Treasury Career corner. Go to treasurycareercorner.com People still don't know. I'm like, what? And you know, hopefully, well, if you listen to this, you will be a subscriber. But the fact is you might see on LinkedIn and stuff. I've always loved talking to treasurers. You know, we talk about the toolbox and people's toolboxes and that I always made the long joke that everyone's got the same title, their treasurer. They do the same thing in the same way with the same tools in, you know, get the same results. And then people go, what? No, that's not. And that's what's amazing. You know, everyone's called treasurer, but the way they do it for one petrochemicals group versus oil and gas versus all the different industries. But then all the different challenges, all the different risks, all the different. Everything is just different. And actually, that's what we bring to life. You know, this is the 150th episode. It's mental. You know, this is one of the key things that, you know, sharing those stories and, you know, it. It's proved, you know, we're over 50,000 downloads. We don't deviate. That's one of the other things. Someone asked me the other day, they said, in fact, I was talking a guy in California yesterday, and he said, oh, you know, are you going to diversify? When. No, it's called the Treasury Career Corner for a reason. I said, I don't want to. You know, I like talking to CFOs, but that's not what I'm about. You know, I don't want to go into, you know, lots of different areas. We focus on corporate treasurers. You know, we do this banking work, but predominantly our work is in corporate. So we stick with that. We stick to our knitting. We. We work our niche. Is it a thing to showcase other businesses? Yeah, potentially is. But I. I'm doing it more because, you know, again, if someone said, well, you know, all the treasures. Yes, we do. You know, we know all the global treasures. So if a client is out there looking and wanting to go, right, do these guys know, as you said, the C suite, the top table? Yes. Do we also know the, you know, the guys just starting out in their careers and just learning the ropes? Yeah, we do. And it's really to show that we've got that breadth, you know, and this is, you know, again, this guy I was talking to last night, he said, really, you work your niche, you know, you're an inch wide, a Mardi. But literally, we do work that mile. You know, we do the hard miles and we, you know, we're talking to treasury analysts and dealers, and one day we're helping them through the podcast. Get to the rural group treasurer. Yeah, that's one of the key things.

A lot of people, and I know we've touched on it when we were talking earlier, we are a UK based consultancy. We all, yourself included, talk about having global presence. But I guess for the listeners, is it fair to say that our main market is the uk?

It's not. And that's one of the key things. And I know we spoke about, you know, we look at some of the numbers we get. We do more business outside of the UK than we ever have done in the UK and in actual fact in the past. I remember one of our years when it was a bit of a boom year. We did, I think it was nearly 40 of our business in Switzerland alone. It was just like it was a crazy busy year and it was great going to Geneva a lot and Zug and Zurich and things and loved it. But we've recruited over in, on the west coast of the us. I'm working, as I say, sort of Midwest. I've got a couple of roles over there. We're working, it just keeps going east coast. We've got some stuff in the us uk obviously it's a home market. So we know lots of people here, we talk to lots of them, but, you know, we don't mind. You know, I've got amazing guests on the show, you know, and I'm working with a lot of those guests, you know, US Treasurers, UK international, global, wherever treasury is, you know, and you, you know, you, you're running our European desk. Yeah, you know, those European people, you know, we know and they can make the move around. It's like, you know, going back to that question about being a Belgian recruiter and just knowing your home country well, the fact is, if you've got a good Belgian role, as we had you looked at, we, and we both worked on it together. We, we had, we were considering people from France, Luxembourg, uk. We looked at a couple of US people but they, you know, they had to have a green card. One of them did, so that was great. So about them and that's what it was. We were truly looking and sourcing people internationally for that one and, and we knew that when we got that wrong, great person, they were the best person for the job, you know. And again, so right the way across and you know, we do a lot of work, more work in the Middle east now and you know, a place into Australia. So yeah, truly, you know, and if we're doing more work outside of the UK than in it, you know, it means that we know the UK market but just Being global, it's just great fun. I mean it sometimes can be longer hours, which is a challenge, you know, sometimes west coast of the US and stuff. But yeah, we're up for it, you know, not afraid for it.

And you've just, you've touched on it a couple of times in that answer around sort of America. So you've been working and recruiting in the US since 2012. Obviously you've mentioned about a couple of clients recently. How is the US going?

Just going back. In fact, we started earlier than 2012. We went there in 2008 and thought, wow, here we go, great. Land of opportunity. Yeah, scary. Just as Subprime came over, just literally everything shut down, shutters down, I was like, oh my goodness. So we sort of just headed back sort of thing. Actually back in 20, 2011, stroke 12, that's when we start restarted I would say in the US and in some ways in the US it's still crazy. You know, we've been going there for, you know, 10 years and we're still a startup business, you know, people are still, oh, a specialist treasury recruitment company, you know. You've been going for 10 years? Well, yeah, but we're not just, you know, us, you know, it's. We've got a team of, you know, that combines over 30 years experience, you know. So when we get asked a question, can you help us recruit this again? As I was talking this client over in Boston, we need a Treasury analyst. Can you help? Yes. Oh, actually, but we might need a group treasurer. Do you do that level? Like. Yeah, that's what we've been doing for 25 years sort of thing. Oh, okay. So you know, that brings with its own strength and stuff and I just, you know, it, it's great. And I can't wait to go back to the U.S. you know, this past year was due to be my 10th year of speaking at the Chicag Treasurers Conference and I've spoken in New York, done a lot of, done a lot of the AFP conferences and it'd just be great to see people. But I think one of the exciting things is we're going to be bring back later this year. For instance we do the podcast and then from that we, I then came up with this Treasury Career Corner Live, which is like a sort of an event where I interview some treasurers live on stage. And what we're going to do is probably bring it back in the UK because we're getting further ahead with the vaccine. So it's meaning hopefully we can get, get A lot of us back in a room and then head to the bar straight after. You know, there's a theme here, isn't there? But joking aside, you know, one of the nicest, you know, if I can get say, you know, I'm thinking, do get two treasurers live on stage, talk about their careers and maybe then have a virtual treasurer there, you know, someone from the States and joining in the things, and we can send them some drinks to enjoy with us as well. But then in front of a live audience, you know, say 80 people, but then, you know, we're doing all these great virtual events. Well, let's blend it and then let's have it live streamed to say, 4, 500 people globally that can also enjoy that experience. And then maybe they go to their fridge and, you know, can crack open a beer and, you know, we can be cheersing them and stuff like that. But, you know, it's, it's about bringing those treasury stories to life, seeing how those people, you know, those treasurers achieve success. What are their keys, what are the learnings? And get that every week on the podcast. Every week we finish it with the, you know, the top three tips. And we've had such a range of it, you know, we've 150 plus guests, you know, so. And each time I ask for a minimum of three bits of advice. So you're looking at 500 pieces of advice at least. Can't wait to be traveling a bit. You know, the other year I did, I think 13 conferences. That was too many.

I remember that.

Yeah, too many. You know, it's just a bit broken. You're just running from this and trying to recruit now. It's a bit more balanced. So I think actually, you know, some of the learnings of the past couple of years, you don't need to be everywhere. You know, we said it to one of the guys actually at the time, David, he said to me one day, said, mike, you're everywhere. I said, david, I'm not everywhere. He said, oh, right. I said, no, I'm everywhere you are. That's my, you know, I'm everywhere to that. You should be hanging out as a treasurer that. I'm at the conferences. We've got the knowledge, we're supporting the treasury industry and treasury, you know, professionals by, you know, giving back, you know, when it is the right time to make a move. That's what we do, you know, and that's, you know, that sounds a bit, you know, altruistic, but, you know, we're there for the Long term, I just loved it and, you know, continue to do so. So I'm grateful to what the industry's done for me.

Obviously, you've just touched on something that we're, we're bringing back this year, hopefully. What else can our listeners and our communities see us sort of delivering this year?

Finally, after 20 years, when I first started it, when I, when I were a child, many years ago, I. Well, anyway, I, I did it. I hated our salary survey. I did. In my previous companies, I was, I was physically asked, and I've done it on videos as well, where someone said, well, what's your most junior treasury analyst paid? I went, this. They said, what's your most senior treasury analyst paid? I went, this. I went, all right, that's your range. I mean, that's not range, that's just two people. And they went, no, no, no, that's what we're going to put in our salary server. And I know they still do it. It's just baloney. Just winds me up. But I always thought, you know what. And I started it and I think my first ever salary survey, I had like, I think got to about 100 people if that and stuff. And then over the years we grew it, we got up to about 800 people. And then it became, you know, as the markets grew, we tried to automate it through a few different platforms. I'm not going to name them because they are really annoying the platforms themselves and change the goalpost. So eventually, finally, we've got that dream of mine that, that we're going to be automating it. You know, we tried in the past couple of years, we were going to produce one. Wanted to do one last year in 2020 with the salary survey. This. I'm sorry, I'm going about a salary survey. And it's. And they said, bug, bear in mind, what I want is that I want what I would want if I was a candidate and that's like to call me, say, Mike, could you tell me. I'm a Treasury analyst, I'm based in Massachusetts, I'm based in West Coast, I'm based in, in London, I'm based in Denmark. Could you tell me what my base salary should be? Or I'm a group treasurer, or I'm this. What, what, what's the average for my level? And I would love it. And, you know, not to say, oh, well, two years ago it was this. What I'd like to do is have it say, well, actually, and we will. It will be an automated process. And this is why it's gonna be amazing, is that we will write to people, they will confirm their details, we'll ratify them as well as we always do. We make sure they're the right person. And, you know, so then people can say. And they'll say, well, how old is this data? And I went, well, it's the third of the month. Yeah. I said three days old. What?

Yeah.

What do you mean, three days old? And every six months we're gonna rerun it and things like that. I mean, we've been asked to, you know, but that's a lot of effort, time and effort. We've tried to actually automate a lot of these processes, which we have now. And I get passionate about it because I just want to give that. It's amazing content for people. You know, that's the key. You know, we get asked, what's the market like? We haven't done that today because, you know, because it always changes things, you know, and then say, oh, what should my salary level be? That's usually. Second question. I think it was for you as well. Second question, you.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

What's the second. Yes, you know, salary and blah, blah, blah.

It's so important. And, you know, businesses as well, very much want to ensure that they are competitive and, you know, they want the actual live, raw data, not a kind of guesstimate, not fluff.

That there is no. One of the key things before we, you know, today is that, you know, and I have been approached about potentially people sponsoring and they wanted to become involved in it. We are open to it, but one of the key things I've had to say is no, but you must bear in mind it will be independent, it will be impartial. No, you will never get access to any of the data because that is confidential to people, and it must always remain so. You know, I don't mind someone having their banner above it and say they support our work. That's great. And then they could, you know, we can, you know, shout about the fact that they're supporting our work and helping us, but we will never, ever share that. And that's always been the critical thing for me. And that, you know, that really, you know, gets, you know, my heart on my chest. Because I'm thinking that's the way I would want to be treated. You know, that's what I would want. I'm happy to share my info with you, Mike, but you're the only person, or your company is the only company to know it, and then well, tell me how I benchmark against the other, you know, what do I do and stuff. And that's, that's what, you know, that's going to be the aim for this year, for 2021, I think, on top of, you know, another successful year with yourself and the team, Katie, and just working together and, and one day we'll breathe the same air, you know, post pandemic and have a, have a few glasses of wine and beer together. So.

Yes. Yeah, it'd be great.

Amazing.

Thank you so much.

Well, thank you, Katie, and all of those guys listening. You know, you've obviously hopefully already subscribed, but you know, you can also do a salary survey. Get in there. Treasurysalary.com loads of links in there. Treasury TV for loads of advice. Dot com, that is. What else can you go to any other dot coms? Yeah, go to TreasuryRecruitment.com See loads of advice. TreasureCareerCorner.com you know, there's a theme here in there, but basically go there and that's what we want to do. Keep on helping you guys in treasury and just a pleasure to deal with you every day.

And the same to you, Katie, and to you, Mike.

So I hope you enjoyed today's show as much as we did and hope you're enjoying some of the new soundtracks that go with it. Here comes the final bit. I hope to talk to you all soon and yeah, we're gonna freshen up the show and continue to develop. If you've got other comments, feel free to drop us a line. My direct email, Mike. Treasure recruitment.com and we won't keep it being a sales fest. We wanted to keep it focused on the game guest, but I hope you enjoy it. So enjoy the new closing intro music, whatever you want to hear. All right, many thanks.