Why Every Aspiring Treasurer Should Take the ACT Exams with George Sawtell

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Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next in this week's show. Delighted to be joined by George Sawtelle. George has recently been appointed the new Treasurer at Servitech. They're a global leader in safety and survival solutions. So if you're ever looking for a life raft that George is the man to go to and look for. You know he's very safe, safety conscious but George, I know we'll go through his background but just as a quick outline he's got come up through cable and wireless. He was then in Marsat UBM Capita so a really good career path within Treasury. And in addition to both being MCT qualified he's also a chartered accountant and law degree so got all those in his back pocket as well. I'm going to let George explain a bit more about that. I was fascinating actually we were just doing a chat before the show but George, you first ever got into treasury and finance many, many years ago as it were. Give us how you started in treasury and finance itself. Just for the listeners if you would. Over to you.

Thank you Mike, Good morning and thank you for referencing the many, many years ago. That's delightful to hear but it's true. So yes I did a law degree at Liverpool University but it wasn't for me.

Was that why did you think actually laws.

I felt it was just a dry subject to me. It didn't grab me but when I finished that law degree the big accountancy firms were taking literally hundreds of graduates into their training program and it was sold as if you qualified that you would have a good all round knowledge of finance. So that, that's what I did. I secured a position at Deloitte Haskins and Sells as it was called in those days in London and ideally qualified over the three years but unfortunately for me that didn't grab me either. I think that was because I didn't find I got the all round finance experience I wanted. It was like getting stuck in weeks on end in Wales auditing the creditors ledger. Didn't really, that wasn't really what I was expecting to, to get out of that three years of hard work and studying. So it was a bit of conundrum for me at that point. I'd done a lot of exams and qualifications but I hadn't alighted upon the career that I, that I Wanted to, to go on. I didn't know what it was. So I suspect, like a lot of treasury people, those famous words fell into treasury is exactly what happened to me. So I started a company called Delta PLC in a small head office in London. It was an international engineering company that didn't have a Treasury Department. And whilst I started as a traditional head office accountant, quickly after I arrived was a treasurer whose job was to establish a Treasury Department. And to begin with he needed to head a Treasury and Tax. He needed to spend his initial months looking at how that department may be set up. And after six months he started to lay the planks, as it were, for a Treasury Department. And that's where I realized that this could be interesting and was starting to grab me as somewhere where I might like to work. In fact, that was the treasurer was Martin Smith who went on to work for Dyson for many years and in James Duncan, his family office. And he gave me that opportunity and was a great teacher and mentor in my treasury career. So one of the things I did at Delta was I did the first FX deals, the first deposits I put in the treasury management system. And I did realize at that point that treasury really was for me. And then I looked at the association of Corporate treasury and I like doing exams at that period in my life and I started the treasury exams and I can honestly say they were the most relevant exams I've ever done. It was because what I was doing during the day helped me with my exams and the studying also helped me going forward, what I needed to do for my work. So they really were very practical, helpful exams. So I did all of them. When I say that I did all of them, I was exempt some modules because of my Chartered Accountancy qualification, but I then went on to the next level. So I did them all in one go. By the time I finished that and spent a couple of years at treasury and Delta, I realized that it was a small company, a small department that to expand my treasury career, which I then sat on, I needed to move to a bigger company with a bigger Treasury Department. That's why I moved to Cable and Wireless, who in those days certainly had a Treasury Department about 10. Now in those days I was still mostly my. Most of my treasury work was around treasury accountancy because of my background. But I certainly wanted to move on from just that narrow part of treasury and expand what I call treasury building blocks. I'm talking about front office. And that did happen at, at Cable and Wireless quite quickly. So it was, I guess it was a good example of falling into treasury, doing exams, wanting to learn more. And that's why I like Treasury. There's a variety of work that it offers.

So, George, with Cayman Wireless, it sounds like there were difficulties or as you say, those investments weren't quite up to scratch sort of thing. Well, did that teach you? What were the examples you can perhaps give the audience about, you know, someone's in a similar situation in another company? Actually, it's not all bad. You're going to learn some good stuff in there, even though it's a difficult, challenging situation. But, you know, what were the examples you might give?

Well, some of the outcomes that I ended up working on, there was a few. For example, the cash repatriation that would normally happen in any Treasury Department wasn't happening at Cape and Wireless. So specifically Cape and Wireless had a big footprint around the Caribbean and further afield. It was a colonial company that started over 100 years ago and those businesses have been left to their own devices and that included keeping their cash. So it was a real challenge to work with colleagues in those areas to explain that it wasn't really their cash. And we really needed that cash to come back to the center to shore up the balance sheet. That was challenging for a number of reasons. There were cultural differences. There was the long term view that that cash was theirs. The cash was quite often tied up with the government bank, who was also the biggest employer, who was also typically a shareholder of Cable and Wireless. So this was very unique nuances, but that was created challenges and problem solving. And that's one of the reasons why I like treasury, because there's many areas where there's conundrums that need solutions and seeking your way around that and negotiating and presenting why that is the way to go is a skill that needs to be developed. But once you've got it, it's incredibly helpful to have. So I ended up writing dividend papers, new loans in place, ensuring current loans were repaid and extracted a lot of a lot of cash back was very messy at that time. The other thing that was a lesson learned was that at that time there was a lot of loans at subsidiary level, which is probably quite unusual these days. Typically the companies I see or work for have centralized debt, but that wasn't the case at Cable and Wireless. And what it became apparent was that because of the situation that Cable and Wallace found itself in, quite severe, cut in its credit ratings was that having the detail of all debt terms, wherever that debt at your fingertips was incredibly important. And what that meant was I went into my next positions is that, that was things that you needed to have to, to hand, obviously.

Yeah. And then you did, as you say, you move, made that next move. You know, it was a. Was it a case of you thought, I've had enough of this, I need, I need a better, you know, you went to a bigger, better role or was that built on some of the experience you'd have from Komala Wireless because you then made the move to Inmarsat?

Well, unfortunately, things were so bad at Cable and Wireless that there were waves and waves of reorganizations, redundancies, and it finally caught up with myself. But frankly it felt like a merciful release because it had been a tough environment to work with for a year or two. So what was great about Inmarsat, I also learned a lot was my first year there. So Inmarsat in those days was not a listed company, it was an NGO. It was about time, about 25 years old actually. It was owned by a lot of governments who have put money into creating an organization to promote safety at sea. And this was by launching satellites over oceans so that ships could communicate to each other for safety reasons. However, when I joined, the company being taken over by private equity and as we all know, they want to cash out in the first two, three, four, five years later. In fact, it happened incredibly quickly at Cable and Wireless. So almost a year after I joined, there was a very successful float of that business. And it's actually a bit ironic now that as we speak now, the company's being taken will probably be taken private again by private equity. But going back to my experience, what I learned was some of the techniques that private equity used to polish up a business. So the seller, leaseback of the head office, there was a lot, a lot of focus around cash management and forecasting. And then there was a preparation work for the float itself and actually then the execution around cash flows at the day of the float, if you like, and reposition the capital structure so it was less leveraged, if you like, to become more PLC like. Although one of the interesting things always with Inmarsat was that even after the float, it was actually non investment grade. And a lot of that was because it was complex layers of, of the capital structure, the different types of debt. And actually my experience in the round in my time at Inmarsat was it really more than filled out my experience around debt. Whether it because there was several different types of debt that were put in place during my time there. There was convertible bonds, there was High yield bonds. There was a regular rcf. There was also loans from the EIB and Exxon, that's the US government bank. There was an intercreditor agreement governing the relationship of these pieces of debt. And so there was a lot of complexity around when waivers needed to be requested for good reasons. And it was very interesting working with organizations like the EIB and EXIM who provided frankly long term cheap dash. However, these are not nimble financial institutions like the banks you typically find in your rcf. They were institutions that had different ways, shall we say of making decisions at different speeds of making decisions. So there was some challenges around managing that diverse group of of lenders and that gave me plenty of experience around debt and debt management.

And you were there for 10 years so good role and built your experience. But you renegotiated the RCF a few times and it just came to a natural actually time for the bigger role.

Yeah, it's an interesting question. My time in Marsat was the team there under the CFO who was written Medlock during all that time. It was incredibly stable team that Rick had. There was. There was very little change and I didn't realize that at the time. It was only after in fact Rick moved on to new challenges that I realized that that was very unusual and actually it was Rick moving that and I discussed what his thoughts why he was moving and he absolutely needed a need challenge and he was talking about his. I remember it well how his his twins I have twins as well as happens was starting university and how they were taking new challenges and how you know he wanted one too. And that really resonated with me and I realized absolutely it was time for a new challenge for myself. So I started looking and you know I felt I was really blessed with the opportunity I had at UBM PLC that we can talk about later but that was the reasoning and I look back now I think I did stay too longer in Mass fat. There was a lot of changes, a lot of different things that I did. I talked about all the different types of debt. But I would say that if I had my time again I would have left a little bit earlier to seek the new opportunities I think all treasurers should do.

So you made the move and you joined ubm. So what was a rapidly changing time of change at UBM as a group? Perhaps explain United Business Media for people that don't know what UBM is or you know some of the what the group was like and everything else, if you would.

Yeah, it was. It was a really Interesting time. So UBM was in fact hundred, literally just under a hundred year old company that had changed its business a lot over that time. It had owned newspapers, it had held shareholdings in television companies. But it also, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago, started to go into events and when I talk about events, business to business events. But more recently move more into those events and generally that's what it did run B2B events all around the world. And then for example, it could have been a trade fashion show in New York, it could have been, well, it was a furniture show in Shanghai, it could have been pharmaceutical event in Europe. So different industries in different parts of the world. But at that time the company also had a very big marketing company in New York called PR Newswire. So when I joined it was, it was interesting because the new chief executive Tim Cobbold put a really great new strategy in place which was Events First. So I think we can all, we all know what might have happened to PR Newswire. Indeed it was very successfully sold during Tim's tenure which threw up some really interesting work around capital structure and, and replenish and what to do with that, the cash that it was sold for. But another plank of Tim's strategy was centralization. It had been a very decentralized entrepreneurial organization. So whilst that entrepreneurial nature didn't want to stop that, there was an opportunity to really centralize. So the challenge for me was taking on a new department which did need some love and care and attention and a bit of an upgrade if you like. A really sprawling cash worldwide cash management with 800 bank accounts, some fairly not new service, shared service centers, but some shared services or accounting issues due to a recent accounting implementation. So it was looking after the day job and really trying to improve that, but also trying to work with the senior leadership team on this new strategy. So it was a real balancing act with vision, looking to the future and being part of that new strategy, but also trying to give a real upgrade to the existing Treasury Department with a fairly new team, contractors, somebody moves on quite quickly. One of my colleagues was on maternity to leave when I arrived. It was a chance to also completely review what, what the team was doing and how better it might be set up and making improvements across the world. It was just, I don't know what the magic dust was that UBM had, but the culture was, was the best I've ever worked for. I don't know whether it was a media company, but it was a very collaborative organization. There was a lot of positive energy around making these, implementing the strategies. So it was a real joy to work for that company for four years.

And four years time for another change. So you continued the progression, you know, did you think right actually got enough out of this and maybe you know, looking back, you'd had 10 years inMarsat so perhaps a bit more progression quicker as it were then you did a couple of other roles or what you know, talk us through up to now.

Well, unfortunately the team at UBM was so successful in implementing the strategy in the round and the events market was and still is incredibly fragmented. But ultimately the company was UBM which polished up so well that Informa PLC made a fabulous offer for UBM that came to fruition last summer through the purchase. So yes, that was time to move on again and look at the treasury market and what opportunities were there. So I took a. I sourced a role through my network at Capita PLC which involved leading a transformation project that was right across Capita's finance team. It wasn't just Treasury, I became a global process owner for treasury but there was many other global process owners for each area of finance. Accounts receivables, payables, intercompany finance and so on. And it was already a year into that project. It was probably one of the largest finance transformations in Europe at the time, probably still is. It was mostly around moving to one version of SAP to a new version of SAP SAT for hana but each area of finance contributing in their own area some efficiencies which would improve finance across Capita. So Capita plc the main plank was putting in an in house bank operating payments on behalf of. Also there was a sort of subsidiary project which was to create an automatic interface between the treasury management system and in future the Sat4 Hana. At the time I was there, the whole of Capita for well documented reasons was going through enormous positive change and that included the treasury team as well with a new head of treasury and the new director of Taxon and treacherous. So it was fast moving, implementing a lot of changes, very positive change, trying to become more efficient, more nimble and for me I just felt myself as I was the interface between this really quite large transformation team, at least 100 people in one office and the treasury team in the new head office. So it was really facilitated to understand what both teams were doing and ensure everyone was coordinated working towards the implementation of that change.

And then so you did. That was more of an interim role before most recently then you headed to safety. There you go. That's a nice little pun. I love that one in there you're headed to.

Yeah.

Thank you. A couple of times explain to the audience, you know, you made the move to server tech. What, what do they do?

So Server tech are a world leading company that provides technical survival gear, hence the name server tech. And so probably easiest way to explain is they've got heritage and I think they produced the first ever life jacket, first ever life raft. But in other areas apart from the marine industry, it's the aviation, defense, also leisure industry for high end kayaking equipment. They're very international, they've got 3,000 staff so they manufacture equipment, they distribute it and also they have to service survival gear as you'd expect. So there's a lot of regulation, worldwide regulations about an important, important part of the proposition. The management have gone through recent change. There's a very small head office so I'm really looking forward to the challenge, working with the new management team to put in place the best processes can for the Treasury Department in the round. It's a small team, it's what I'm using to. So it's a really great opportunity, hopefully like ubm, to make some really impactful efficiencies in the Treasury Department. But I think given the size of the head office, I think what's going to be very enjoyable is working with the new CFO to add more than just pure Treasury. We've not talked about that but one of the things for anyone who's starting their treasury career is there are opportunities to add to not just treasury skills, but wider treasury skills which I call risk management, such as insurance and pension and through your ability to have contacts right around any group you work through. Through cash management. I often find the treasury team, without being boastful or showing up tax would be similar. They have more contacts, treasury has more contacts because it's got to know how it's all its worldwide banks are operating and so as you gain experience, it's often the case that you can spot other opportunities for the business you work with to be more efficient. And I'm thinking some of my experience will be useful at this next opportunity.

Yeah, looking towards, you know, you've been through a number of different roles and you've got that expertise, if you like, within systems and within lots of different things. Where do you see treasury growing over the next five, 10, 15 years, as it were?

I find more and more I come across teams that are very lean and small and the only way you can really achieve that is by trying to be automated as possible and typically that's around cash Management, treasury management systems. So none of this is particularly new but I'm constantly surprised on my travels and I've been looking at other opportunities quite how basic some companies that you might be surprised I'm not going to name any are not as efficient and using automation as you might expect. So there's definitely lots of opportunity for treasury teams to do more and more of this. So that would be one of the main areas I've also found throughout my career. I'd say there's much more focus and opportunities around wider risk management. As I was just talking to, there's definitely you're more at the table board level and just more recognition of what Treasurys do in the round. It's not just cash management, it's not just debt management, it's not just FX and interest rate management. Other areas that treasures can be impactful as well. So I think it'll just be more of that really more optimization working with with quite small teams really using that.

Team ethos as a theme there. Well obviously we're on a podcast hosted by the treasury recruitment company and thinking about people and a part of that what's your. When you're hiring, when you're bringing people on board in the team, what is it you look for? You've got obviously a great background with qualified accountant, treasury qualifications, good history of great different treasuries. What is it you're looking for though when you pick up that cv? Is it oh actually I want similar to me because I know what I'm handling or is it actually I want difference because you blend different things or where are you in that process?

I don't think anyone should be quite like me and I think that's a bad technique, isn't it to hire images of yourself. But there again I could be guilty of that. I think depending what level you're recruiting, either if they're more senior I'd expect them to be able to do their basics well, to have a Treasury qualification if they're more junior at the start of their careers with that willingness to potentially if they are decided on the treasury care that they're willing to learn through the association of Corporate Treasurers because I think that really helpful in their, in their grounding but also it establishes a great network for them and then you know, as I said before, you tend to work in very small teams so you have to be able to get on with that small treasury team and you have to muck in and cover for each other by definition but also the general communication skills because you do and this is one of the joys of treasury. You interact with a wide variety of people throughout the group. So you are an ambassador for treasury and sometimes head officers as well. So both communication skills and ability to adapt and get on with people and negotiate energy as well. There's always things coming out of the blue. So it's constant change really. There's periods when it can be stressful for MA acquisitions and so forth debt raise. So some resilience also I'd say we were discussing this before but people who will put their hand up to help out maybe on new areas to take on new responsibilities I think which would be important and just general problem solving. Not being someone who's happy just to fill in the same spreadsheet week after week. But then, you know, then thinking about that is that the right way? Do I need to do it so often? Could I do it a different way? Could I automate it? So being proactive and the ability to.

Problem solve and as we come wrap up today show come towards the end of it agree with you before George that what we'll do is put George's LinkedIn profile link in the show notes so you can connect with him if it's good for both of your networks and everything else. But summarizing your time, you've made some really good moves as a treasurer. You really got to where you've got successfully and you've done all these things. If someone looks back over your profile and says do you know what? I'd like to have a profile like that or I'd like to wherever they might be, they might be beginning of the career but further on in it and saying actually okay, he made the number one move and then UBM now server tech more recently and things like that.

What.

What's the one piece of advice or overarching couple of pieces of advice you might give to those people when they're looking at that saying so we got a lot of younger listeners and you know, earlier stages of their careers. They're thinking right actually. So what would you tell them?

It would be this. I would absolutely. If you, if you feel that treasury is for you. The association of corporate treasury exams are as I experienced are a really great way to get your grounding your platform. I call them building blocks. When you come into a Treasury department you might be doing cash management, you might be in the front office but trying and use your time wherever you start off and your next role in acquiring those building blocks as I call them and then with those two platforms you Got a really great chance to have a great career and it may be that you have an opportunity to move into wider finance. But I would say think about. I've enjoyed working for different industries. You know, it brings different challenges, but at the end of the day, cash management, it's still cash management, so getting those variety of industries I think helps. But lastly, just. I think I wish I'd done more of it earlier in my career. Put your hand up for taking on new responsibilities either within pure treasury or what I call wider risk management, such as insurance and pension, because I would. And don't be afraid to take them on. If you're offered an opportunity, assume it's because you can do it. It might be scary because it's new and you don't know how you do, but generally I think you learn a lot from that and you will succeed in that.

Yeah, it's ideal. And again, as I say, if people look back at your profile, I think they'll see this solid treasury career path, but also some really interesting companies in there, and that's how to do it. George has put his hand up where necessary, got the extra exposure and it's served you well, as it were. So well. All that remains for me to say. Thank you very much, George. I wish you well in your new role and people can keep an eye out for all your successes. You continue to grow, sir, but lovely to talk to you today. Thanks very, very much for your time.

Thanks, Mike. And have a. Have a great trip to the States.

Thank you. S.