Why Every Treasurer Needs A Mentor with Karen Van den Driessche

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or there's feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventibly enough, but anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show.

So welcome to this week's Treasury Career Podcast. This month is our Women in Treasury Month where I specifically interview female treasury professionals who have successful treasury careers. As always, we talk about their roles, how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going next. In this week's show, I'm delighted to be joined by Karen Vandendrecher, the Assistant Treasurer at Avnet, headquartered in Phoenix, Arizona in the U.S. avnet are one of the world's largest distributors of electronic components, embedded solutions and a number of other businesses which we can perhaps explore a bit more with. Karen. Originally founded in the 1920s, they're listed on the NASDAQ Stock Exchange and currently rank 128 on the Fortune 5. Cameron has worked within treasury since 1997. She's originally starting as treasury assistant with Solution back in those days. Now she's the Assistant treasurer, Avnet based in Brussels. We'll talk to her about her background, how she gives back to as the VP of the ateb, the Belgian Treasurers association and we'll talk through her career, some of the positive things and how she's progressed to this day. Now, as always, enough from me. Karen, you started your treasury career as a Treasury assistant back with solution back in 97. A good way to start your career, would you say?

Yes, I do think it was a good way. It was actually also very much of a coincidence because I'd never thought about Treasury. I actually didn't know what treasury was. I started as a bank, moved into the credit team at Solucia and they at Monsanto at the time and they did a spin off and they actually needed somebody to do Treasury. So the VP of Finance came to me and asked me, she said are you interested in Treasury And I said, if you would explain to me what that is, I might be.

If you'd spell it for me, that'd be great.

So they said, well, here there's a euro finance conference in Geneva. They said, why don't you go there, figure out what you think treasury is and then tell us if you want to have the job. And that's what I did.

After a very heavy week in Geneva, you mean? Yeah. They convinced treasury was the way forward.

Indeed. So I was very excited about the role because I actually had worked in a bank, then applied for this credit role, but wasn't really sure if that was what I wanted to do. And then this opportunity came up, which I grabbed with both hands and I've never had a moment of doubt since. I've been very lucky that I had that opportunity.

And obviously you were just starting by yourself in treasury. You could look to your finance person, but there was no one actual working with you within treasury, is that right? So how did you make it up as you went along, or.

Yeah, so I had, as we were doing a spin off, the people who worked at Monsanto in the treasury team did explain to me what I was supposed to do and how it all worked. The company had picked a bank and a Treasury system and they said, here you are. Go and implement the system and figure out what we need to do. So I think. And I think that's been maybe a little bit the red thread through my career is I've had a lot of opportunities where I just learned as I went along, they gave me a challenge and I picked it up and figured out what, what I thought it meant.

And so you did three and a half years in that sort of starter role within treasury, as it were, you know, then Coca Cola came along, or how did that sort of happen, as it were?

Well, I think I've always been a little bit ambitious in my career and I really liked what I was doing, but I was thinking, okay, what's next? What can I do to enhance my career, to enhance my knowledge? And then the role at Coca Cola Enterprises came up as a Treasury analyst. And of course, and I think you will see in my career, some of the names I've worked for have been big international or multinational US companies. And I thought, well, Coca Cola Enterprises, that is a company that I would really like to work for. So I applied for a job and got it.

And what was that like? I know some of the setup of how Coca Cola sets up their businesses, but perhaps our listeners don't necessarily understand quite so much. What's the difference in Coca Cola Enterprises and Coach, hpsa, HPCSA and Coca Cola in the US or how does it all work? How does it stitch together?

Yeah, so Coca Cola Enterprises actually, which has been renamed in the meantime to the Coca Cola bottling operation, but Coca Cola Enterprise was actually the butler of the Coca Cola Company. So in essence, and if I remember correctly, Coca Cola Company was about 50% shareholders. Coca Cola Company produces the syrup, I'll call it, and sells it to the bottlers who then actually bottle it and distribute it. So that is a big difference between the Coca Company and the Coca Cola Enterprises at the time. So when I joined, Coca Cola Enterprises was Belgium, uk, France, Monaco, and I think that's what it was at the time. And they were very much organized as what we would call their own little kingdoms. So they were support roles like treasury and Tax. However, what I learned there was that even though treasury had a good reputation within the organization, it still was much. It was a department that actually had to convince the finance teams and the countries to work with them and make it clear that the treasury central team could have an added value to their organization.

So it was quite separate, it seemed at the time, certainly separate to the business and you had to sell to them the benefit of why you use treasury, correct?

That is indeed correct.

You have really broad role, doing lots of different things there within that position. What were the highlights of that role, do you think? What did that give you at the time?

I think what really was a highlight for me in that role is, like I mentioned earlier, the convincing of the value added of treasury, but also being involved in not the pure treasury remit that I would call. There was a lot of cash flow forecasting challenges, working capital issues, which meant that we could, or I could at that point help out on structuring the process, identifying best practices within each of the countries and then building a global cash flow forecasting process. Also worked on the working capital items, which was again very interesting, knowing that there's a lot of inventory being held. And then a third element which was new to me at the time was the whole commodity part. Sugar, glass that needed to be hedged, cans. So it was, I think in the seven years that I was there, I learned a lot about both, let's say treasury specific topics, but more general finance topics that were linked to Treasury.

Okay. And as you say, you were there seven years and then for a period you joined. You're going to have to say, I mean, agfa, I can say. But then AGFA gave it, is that right? Yeah, for a short period, but because the cancer demerger. Is that right or what happened then? How come you decided to move from Coke?

Well, after seven years I felt that I had done most of what I could do. There was at that time, I mean, I think the Koch Group has evolved a lot over time with the bottling organization. But at that time I felt there was really not a lot of change anymore going on and I couldn't really progress in my career. I then got contacted by, remember I said at the beginning Solution. Our VP Finance told me go to Geneva. We actually stayed in touch and she worked in the meantime as a consultant at ifa. And IFA at the time was considering an IPO of their healthcare division. And so they were looking for somebody who could help manage that IPO and then become treasurer of the healthcare organization. I had worked for US multinational Solution, Coca Cola Enterprises. And at the time I was thinking it might be a good idea to work for a Belgian company because one of the. I don't know if I want to call it a downside, but one of the difficulties in working for a US multinational being based in Europe is that you're never what we'd call close to God, which could be good and which could be bad. Wanted to see what it would be like to actually work at headquarters of a company and this again was a real challenge. So I decided to join akfa. Like you said earlier, it was a short stint. The reason for that was that by the time, you know the Belgian job market, it takes a while before you actually resign and you can actually leave the organization. So by the time I actually started at ehfa, there had been a lot of change in the company and the IPO was put on hold. So I arrived in an organization where they had a well functioning treasury team. So the role as I had been hired for was no longer existing. But I have to say again, and I think another item that has been really good for me along my career has been I've always had great bosses who've been willing to support me and help me grow. And ACFA was no different. So my manager at the time there saw I'll call it my potential and said, well, you can do treasury but you can do other things as well. So he actually asked me to review the whole credits organization and to look at it with an outside view and come up with solutions or suggestions on how that organization could be better structured. So I did go ahead.

I was going to say, you did that role and Then it sounds like from, you know, what you've said, there was a sort of natural end because they weren't going to demerge. They had a Treasury Department. Had you started looking or did the, you know, obviously you were in the drinks industry before and then you joined InBev or how did that come about?

Again, I think I didn't actively look. I got contacted by a recruiter who asked me, with my knowledge about Coca Cola Enterprises or my experience there, if I would be interested to join AB InBev as the director of treasury for Western Europe.

Cool.

And I think one of the things that was really important at the time as well was AB InBev was about 3km from where I lived. So I thought, oh, my work life balance is going to change. I'm actually going to be able to leave at a decent time but be home 10 minutes later.

And did you?

It did not.

So what was that role like then? So because you did two different roles, you went from sort of Treasury Director running Western Europe and then through in cash liquidity or, you know, how was it organized?

So AB and at the time was organized regionally. So they had regions, regional treasury directors, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Latin America or Brazil separately, and then Latin America. Now, the specifics about the Western Europe role were a little bit complex in the sense that you had headquarter and you had Western Europe treasury in the same building in the same location. So that didn't really make a lot of sense. So very soon we decided, or we said that we would make more sense to actually merge the Western European treasury team into the global team.

Yeah. So you joined that and then you took over responsibility of cash liquidity, is that right?

Yes. Now, I think what was for me very important during the period that I was Western European treasury director, again, I think, like I mentioned, at Coca Cola Enterprises, I did, let's say the core treasury role, but then had a lot to do with forecasting and working capital at imbev. The challenge that I had was I was also responsible for insurance and pension fund management. So again, an increasing roles and responsibility because usually insurance is not necessarily always part of the treasury team. And pension fund management, again could be very often managed by HR or as a separate function. So I had again the chance to increase my knowledge by being responsible for that part as well.

So after three years with the group at AB InBev, you time for a move or what was the situation?

Well, I think the three years at InBev was an intense period. InBev is an intense environment. And after three years, I felt it was time to move on and to look for a new challenge.

And then Avnet came looking. How did that come about?

Avnet came looking. Well, actually, again mentioned earlier, the first person in my career who supported me when I was at Coca Cola Enterprises, our HR director there. I stayed in touch with that person as well. And when I was looking for a new challenge in my career, contacted some of the people I knew. And Avnet said, hey, we might be looking for a new treasure. Made up their mind, which was actually a good thing because it gave both of us time to think this through, decide what is it that I was looking for in my new role. And also for them to decide on what were they looking for in their new Treasury Director for the region, for Western Europe. For Europe at the time.

And FNET itself, I said at the beginning of the show, electronics company, but there's lots more than that as well. How would you describe Ethnet?

Well, I think Avnet has evolved a lot over the last three years. So we were a $27 billion company and we had two main divisions. We had the electronic components, but we also had the technology solutions department or business unit. So over the last three years, Avnet has divested the technology solutions business unit. It was sold to tech data in 2017. And Avnet has also done a number of acquisitions as we realized that the tech market is changing. So Avnet was a distributor of electronic components or a value added distributor, while now we are evolving more into the value chain. So getting into the technological value chain earlier by helping define solutions. So we bought Hackster a couple of years ago. So the environment or the tech environment is really changing in a sense that we are no longer a pure distributor. We are helping the market and helping design solutions for the future.

So you're helping customers choose what they want and then implement it and then buy it sort of thing, is that right?

Yes. So develop IDs. So from actually IDs, bringing up IDs to developing it for a smaller group and then if it really makes sense to a bigger part of the community, I would say then move that into a bigger production environment.

Okay. And then, so, you know, it sounds like your roles changed as well, because, you know, or talk me through the evolution of your role over the past, what, since 2011. So you've been there, sort of. We're coming on nine years, will be soon. So.

Yeah, yes, time has flown. I have a very good friend who actually I was at her place at a. How do you Say that a baby bottle. How we say it in Dutch. So she had just given birth to her, her kid, when Avnet called me to offer me the role. So whenever I need to figure out how long have I been at Avnet, I just call her and I say, how old is your daughter? So, yes, the role has evolved. So I started as a Treasury Director for Europe. We had a small team in Europe, and Avnet at the time was very regionally organized. So every treasury regional treasury would execute strategy from headquarters but within their own remit. So there was not that much, let's call it, interaction between the regions. So when I joined, there was limited visibility on what was actually going on. So there was still. Well, we had a centralized treasury department in the region. Businesses were still very independent. So one of the first questions I asked when I joined was like, okay, how many bank accounts do we have? And they looked at me and they said, well, we don't know. They're managed by the business units. And I'm like, okay, maybe we need to have some better view on which accounts we have who are signing authority. I mean, for me, the basics. So that took a while to get that all tracked and reported. And it wasn't necessarily the technical part, I would call it, about getting all of the data. It was again, the convincing part of talking to our business units and explaining to them why it made sense for us to have that information and to help them manage this in a more centralized role.

Selling treasury to support the business as well, Correct? Yeah.

At the time also, only Europe had a Treasury management system. So Asia and Americas, both Latin America and North America were managed in Excel. And one of the questions that I had when I joined was, well, we're a multi billion dollar company and we're managing our treasury in Excel. That doesn't sound right. So part of the actions that I took was review at least the European system and see was it still fit for purpose. Which we realized it wasn't. But then given the cost of an implementation, it doesn't really make sense to just do an implementation for a new treasury system just for one region. So sat down with our treasurer and came up with a proposal to implement a system globally that would give us visibility and efficiency across the globe. Within the treasury organization.

Yes. Which one did you bring in?

We use Integrity. So we decided on Integritee. And the reason why we decided on Integritee was because we also wanted to set up a Swift connectivity. At the time, we looked at different parties and decided to go for one Vendor at the time it was still sungard. Now it's fis, but so that we would have the different products from one vendor, not have to do negotiations with different vendors.

Yeah, all together. So.

Yeah.

And then, you know, to, you know, bring us up to now, what's the shape of the team, you know, and how's it structured, you know, personally, I know, because we work together and things like that, but, you know, for the listeners, you know, how are you organized now?

So where I said earlier, we were organized very regionally. We then did a significant acquisition in 2000 at the end of 2016 from a company called Premier Farnell, which was globally organ. So after we finished the divestiture of the technology solutions division, we sat down and we got the remit from our VP treasurer saying, okay, Avnet historically has been organized very regionally. Premier Farnell has been organized very globally. Now go sit down, have a look at the treasury organization and see what should be, what should our treasury organization look like for the future? So we sat down and so Karen Hughes, who is the assistant treasurer as well, and I sat down and looked at our organization and decided that we would probably be or that the organization would probably be best served if we had a Treasury organization that could focus on what we called operations on one hand and business partnering and technology on the other hand. So based on that review, we came up with a proposal where our team is now globally organized with one team that is really focusing on operational activity and the other team that is focused on business partnering and technology. And I head up role of business partner in technology.

Right. And run along those lines.

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When you're looking for people, obviously it sounds like there'd be differences because you know, if you're looking for Karen's, you're looking very much more operational focus and cash and things with you on your side different, would you look more think about people. Consultancy would be a better fit or not or what would you think? How does it contrast if you.

Well, I think yes, indeed. In my organization I would look more for internal consultants, but when I look for qualities or candidates, I really want people who know how the business works. Consulting, it's consulting, but practical consulting. So when I look for people, I don't really look at qualifications that much. What I need is people who have the right attitude, who have a can do mentality, who understand complexities of the business and who can identify solutions to help the business. So where I don't want it to be that our finance or business partner or businesses come to us and say we have this problem, solve it, we really want it to be a corporation, I guess if that's what you would kind of call it. So that we bring expertise from both the business or the finance and the treasury team together and come up with solutions that are suitable for both. It also needs to fit into the treasury strategy. So when I look for really mostly attitude, the way I always say it is I don't want passengers on the bus, I want drivers. And I want people. I'd rather have a good team who could make sure that I am totally redundant, but who can deliver rather than me having to do it. That's the type of people I'm looking for.

And have you struggled to do that? I know that we've talked about this in the past and I've seen a change in ethos. I spoke actually at Karen very kindly when I turned up to one of her conferences a couple of years ago, suddenly said, mike, could you do the speech first thing in the morning? That was less than 12 hours later, so I was a bit scared. But part of the speech I gave was I sort of highlighted my, you know, speaking about my daughter and how her ethos had changed. And one of the key things I find quite strange from when I first started in the job market a few years ago now, 30 odd years ago that my daughter, you know, when she was talking about an employer, she was saying, well, you know, well, what are they going to do for me, Dan? I said, well, they'll pay you salary and you'll get a good career. And they said, okay, and what else are they going to do for me? And I was like, well, that's what you do. You do your job and you get paid and everything else. Have you seen that with these people as well, change or you know, when you're recruiting?

Yes, I have. I mean, I think generations have changed and expect different things from their employer, but also different things from life where I think I've always worked really hard because that's indeed what my parents told me. You work hard and you do what your boss tells you to do and you deliver. And if that means that you have to work 12 hours a day, then that's what it's going to take. And I do see that people value work still, but they value their personal life and their work life balance a lot more than we did. And so from a personal point of view, I think it's probably a very good evolution as a manager or as an employer. It's a much more difficult situation to deal with because I have my personality, I expect certain things to be done and I need to learn that the generation of people have changed and they have different values. So yes, it's been a struggle. Now on the other hand, it's not the time that you spend at work, but it's how effective you are when you are there. So it is difficult on one hand, but I think there are still people out there with the right attitude and the right mindset. But it's difficult to find them sometimes.

Yes, yeah, but we keep on trying. We will keep finding those people. And if you're listening today, feel free to send me your resume. I'm very happy to chat to you. But just that aside, you also then became involved with ATEB or you know, for those that don't know, that's the Belgian Treasurers Association. Do you want to give perhaps the, the listeners just an understanding of who and what ATEB are and your position as, as the VP and everything else.

Yeah. So ATAP is like you said, I mean, used to be called the Belgian association of Treasurers. We have renamed it to the Belgian association of Experts or the Treasury Experts in Belgium. I've been part of at the for I think 15 years. When I was younger and trying to find my way within the treasury organization, I was looking for like minded people because within the treasury organization of the company, I mean it was limited so I wanted to understand what was going on in the market, how people dealt with things related to treasury and I got welcomed into the association at that time led by Olivier Brissot. He's been a great mentor for me over those last 15 years. So always been a very active member of ATEP and became a board member in 2013 if I remember correctly or 12 meaning helping out and organizing certain conferences subjects and then in 2015 as Jeff Vanosta who had been the chairman for a couple of years resigned, there was really at that time not a clear candidate of who would take on the chairman or chairwoman's role and I felt that APTEP was an organization that I've always had a lot from and I felt it would be a pity if we couldn't continue that. So I decided to take on the role well to put my candidacy forward Chairman and so got accepted and named chairman or president of AAP.

And what's it like being el President?

It's fun. Like my job is fun but it's also challenging as you know it's a non remunerated function on top of a busy job already people, we have worked really hard on changing the organization a little bit and being more focused on what do our members want and how can we help them. But that takes time and the more you deliver the more people expect. But it's been very rewarding. We have a great board, we have great members, we feel valued people look for our opinion and share ideas and I think it's a very interesting organization where we have corporate members who can share IDs and comments amongst each other. But we also have a very good relationship with our bankers, our vendors, consultants in the Belgian market. So it's really a very good networking opportunity whenever we organize events and also learning opportunity about certain topics that you might not necessarily come into contact with in your daily jobs.

So it gives back both ways sort of thing.

Yes, yes. And so it's really. It's a very friendly organization. A lot of hard work but very rewarding.

Just going back a point there, as I said just a moment ago, very kindly I was forced front of, front and center of stage with Karen's conference a couple of years ago which was great actually but scary but at the same time good learning experience for me which has resulted. I'm the keynote speaker at the Austria Treasurers Conference first one on this Thursday. Now one of the topics I'm talking about and the way it Relates directly to Karen. You mentioned there about Olivier Brousseau and him being your mentor for a number of years. What's he giving you? Because that's one of the key things I talk to people about. What professional coaches versus a mentor. What has a mentor given to you?

Mentor has given to me and I've had Olivier pursue as a mentor. I think I can contribute most of the bosses I've had in the past as mentors. A mentor for me has given me the opportunity to have a. I'll call it a safe place. So maybe my earlier comment about bosses is not that applicable, but a mentor gives for me, the meaning is it gives you a safe place to share IDs to voice your concerns. Because we always look as very strong men and women when we are in our profession, but we're all human, so we don't have all the answers and we sometimes need to, in a safe environment, be able to share concerns, try out ideas, sometimes even doing a presentation and or rehearsing a presentation without the risk of looking stupid, if that's the word.

A professional opinion in a sounding board environment where you can. What do you think of this? What do you think? And yeah, critiquing and saying, right, I think you should change this and this. Or make it shorter or longer or whatever.

Yes. So that's on the technical side, I'll call it. But also on the career side. Right. Is how do I deal with certain people in the organization that I have a hard time connecting to? How do I convince people or how do I make choices or decisions within your own career environment? I mean, is staying in treasury the right thing? Do we want to look at something else? I mean, I also think that it's important for a mentor not necessarily to be in the same department or what would you call it, the same environment as you are. I have another mentor who used to be the VP of finance of our technology solutions business. I still talk to her and she has this. She knows the business, she knows finance, she doesn't know treasury, which is actually great because she has a different point of view. And Olivier has always been like that as well. They can give you sound advice, additional elements to think of when you're trying to make a decision and help you guide or guide you on making your own well thought through decisions.

You mentioned there about sort of people and you know, bouncing those ideas off your mentor. One of the things that I make, you know, we write articles about it and how I've seen position of treasurer evolve and maybe it sounds like in your case, you're asked to manage lots of people, you're coaching lots of people. But a lot of the time, do you receive coaching about that professionally or, you know, is that something that you look to get through right through ateb or where are you up to with the sort of the coaching for yourself on a personal level?

Difficult question. Coaching? Yes. I probably do it through atep, through a lot of the board members, which are friends, but also treasury professionals who are very open and very clear in their feedback. So I think that's very helpful and important in a coach to point out your flaws or your items that you need to work on, because it could be dangerous, I'll call it, for lack of a better word, to be surrounded by people who always show you the good things. So I've always been. I mean, I think coaching also comes from the people that you work with that work for you. I mean, if you have the right people and you create this environment of openness and honesty, they will also point that out and they will remind you where you're going, where you're doing a good job, but also where you're doing less of a good job. So I think that coaching comes from my perspective. Coaching comes from every different way, from people above you, people who work for you and your peers and yourself as.

You develop within Treasury. And we talk about the future as we sort of wrap up today. Where do you see, see treasury growing and the future challenges? We talked about this before the show. We're not going to go into Brexit, IT and all that malarkey. It's just more. Where do you see the role of the Treasurer and Treasury going from here?

I think one of the reasons why we structured treasury at Avnet into the operations part versus the strategic or business partnering role is in line of where I think treasury is going. I think treasury and I know we said we were not going to talk about Brexit and it, but I do think that IT and all of the technological changes that are happening are going to affect the treasury organization or environment. I think the more repetitive, routine tasks will be much more automated in the future. I think artificial intelligence, robotics, all of that type of evolving solutions will change the face of Treasury. But I do think that it means that also the, I call it business partnering or risk advisory or guardian of your liquidity, those roles will remain and will become more and more important. So you'll start seeing more of routine tasks executed more by technology and then having the advisory parts, that becomes more and more important.

Yeah. To the organization.

Wow.

Okay. I mean any, you know, if people want to, you know, they listen to this interview and they want to perhaps connect with you is the best way maybe via LinkedIn or the association because you've got a website as well for if people want to get involved with at EB and things. When do they go, go.

Yes, I think LinkedIn would probably be the best. Or if they want to reach out to me at my email which is karen.vandenriesepforum.org but I'm sure that you can also post that on your website.

I'll put that in the show notes as well. So. Yeah, because yeah, spelling it making is always a challenge. You know, Mike Richards is very simple. Karen Vanderdruch is much more interesting as a name.

I know, I'm sorry.

No, we love it.

So.

Is there anything else you just wanted to add to wrap up and it's been great today, I think really enjoyable time. But any words of encouragement maybe for junior treasury guys listening to this? We started off by you getting into treasury relatively by accident as such and people thinking about getting into the treasury profession. Obviously you do a lot with ateb. What do you think about treasury for the future? Why should people jump into treasury versus other maybe finance areas? What does it do for you?

Well, I think that treasury is a great role to be in, I think because you have contacts with internal stakeholders, external stakeholders. You have the right combination of data, of numbers, but also the communication part, understanding the business. So I think it's a pivotal role in the organization which can evolve even more. So it's fun if you make it fun, but that could be the case for any job. So if you are even considering Treasury, I said take a good look because it's very interesting, it challenges you and I think it is a role that will still remain there for the future. So don't be afraid about the automation and administration. There's a lot, lot that still needs to be done and we can use you in the treasury profession.

There's lots of fun to be had. Yes, perfect. Thank you very much.

Thank you.