Why Lifelong Learning is Key in Treasury with Doug Williamson

Foreign.

So, welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to Treasures about how they've built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. This week's episode is slightly different in that I'm joined by Doug Williamson. Now, Doug is actually the course director for Finance E Learning at the University of Cambridge Institute of Continuing Education, but he's also been heavily involved for many, many years with the act, the association of Treasurers in the UK, and Treasury Education. And I've known Doug throughout that period and actually I thought, you know what, this is a topic that comes up a lot of the time. Lots of people are sort of saying that we want to know about, should we pursue education qualifications? Should we do this? We were just talking before the show about learning and development for different people. And I'll let Doug dive in with that because he's got some really great sort of snippets for people and to really understand. But Doug, you've had many years in sort of. You started out within accounting and then developed through that and then went into the education side that you tell your story and then we'll deep dive a bit more in the education. Some of the thoughts you've got on that for the next half hour or so.

Trained as a chartered accountant with KPMG. That's about 1% of the graduate population is doing. At the time, I was group tax manager with Virgin. My claim to fame there would be. I would have strangled Virgin Radio at birth. And so I saw the proposal and thought, this will never fly, so good job. They didn't listen too much to the bean counters at Virgin. We were expected to scurry on behind and catch up. So that was a good lesson in what I don't know so well. Following that, I was an interim finance manager, and one day there was some treasury issues, but no Treasury Department in the company I was working in. The finance director, also interim, came in with a job advertisement from the Financial Times. It said, foreign exchange funding, various other treasury issues, salary per annum, about twice what I'd ever earned before. And he said, is this the sort of thing you might be interested, maybe? I said, yes, I've never done it before. He said, that's okay, just do your best. So I was interim treasurer, not having done it before, and you could say, made my mistakes with other people's money, got my learning with other people's money. During that period, a colleague said did you know there's a professional qualification in this? I said, no. He said, well, my friend's just taken it and the past Exam papers cost £25 each, but she'll give you hers. She's just passed one paper, failed another took the qualification, thought the training was brilliant but could be improved upon. And from that point, that was 1999. By 2000, I was marking exams, marking the things called progress tests. Back in the day, you'd buy, post, write out handwritten script, post it back to the act. They'd post it to a marker and mark it, post it back, got posted back.

So you were in the very inception then how long have they been going for, then the. Some of the exams and things like that, because originally it was more of an association and then sort of graduated into sort of. Actually we need to assess this. How far were they on that journey at that stage, do you think?

I think they were from memory at that point. About 20 years in and about 15 years in of compulsory exams. Used to get an asterisk depending whether you were by invitation or passed the assessments. Yeah, I think I'd say there was a very good system, well in train at that point and a very well integrated system and I would say a good student experience by those days standards where there wasn't the expectation of instantaneous feedback. You did have to wait two weeks.

And then you carried on with these series of different roles or, you know what. How did it then evolve for there for your career and things?

I guess I was involved both with teaching and writing material, writing assessments from 2016 through to about 2016. During that period, fairly early on, I realized you can't teach people everything. You have to in some way get them in a place where they can teach themselves. So that stimulated an interest in coaching. My first wife had retrained as a life coach. I had some life coaching. And the very first thing I read about life coaching from the coach said, the client, Doug, remains entirely responsible for all of his actions, omissions and their consequences. I liked that idea in terms of empowering the client. I also liked it from the perspective of the coach saying, I don't need to worry whether he or she does what he or she said she would. And I guess that was quite parallel with students because most students will engage. A minority are incredibly hard to engage and they're going to fail their exams. And as a tutor, you just have to relax about that and say, okay, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. So that made me Appreciate there's a significant coaching motivation element to all teaching at its best, I feel. And I've been learning more about coaching since and currently continuing my learning and education about coaching and continually trying to integrate it with the finance. Then I guess the other strand to it was are you. I used to think online courses were all rubbish. I think there are have been a lot of quite poor ones out there and I think you can go back about 40, even 50 years and read computers are going to make human teachers redundant. Doesn't seem to have quite happened yet, but I think recently there's been some fantastic developments in online learning. So I'm an immense enthusiast and that was why I was so excited to work with Cambridge to develop and then deliver online courses, having been a student of one that was very brilliantly taught by my coaching tutor, Keith Nelson.

You just mentioned there about the sort of different attitudes to learning and things like that. Now you were coming into ACT, coaching training and all that. That word, that's treasury professionals particularly focused within the UK a lot of the time, but who want to learn, you know, they're not, they're not, you know, they're paying for this. So whereas just state education and you're anything, you know, below 18, 16 in the UK, you have to go to school, those are the rules. These guys weren't rules bound. Did you find that a big difference with those people that were coming to you, that they really wanted to grab the learning or something that was just.

A faff or there's a great range. So at the top end, the gentleman I've had the honor of nominating, Joe Scattergood, I hope will be on ACT council. He was an example of I'm here to learn. And I guess the qualifications are a process of focusing, structuring that learning and putting a time scale on it. How many people are like that, truly? Well, the more the merrier and I guess many have got the potential to do that and you want to evoke that there are others. Another one was speaking about his colleague and saying, oh yeah, my colleague did this fantastically well. He was brilliant at managing his time. He did the absolute bare minimum to just get through. You know, my target is to get 52% in the exam and if I do the very least I could, but I get the badge, then I've done well. I fear there is still quite a bit of that and out of student group, I like to believe everybody has the other motivation within them and you can evoke it. However, I guess it's a matter of if you've got an assessment, until people are reassured they'll pass the assessment and until you can show them that's just a starting point. It's a bit like passing your basic driving test. So much more to learn. And I guess that's the best thing one can do to stimulate that is get a recent ex student and say, here's how I got through my assessments, my exams. However, here are all the things I've learned. Since this is just one step on a very long journey, or to put it in a more negative way, you're at the bottom of another extre long and greasy pole, because all of that knowledge is just assumed, as you were mentioning before we started, that's a minimum. What's different about you? There's these differentiating things and I guess to me that's the application part or the development part, as in learning and development. It's not just knowing stuff and demonstrating them and know it, it's I can apply it, tailor it. And ideally, thinking of the treasury context in of terms particular, see the perspective of the one who's on the other side of the negotiating table. So I think that's my key takeaway, is can I put myself in the seat or the shoes of the one I'm negotiating with now? And if I can do that successfully, I'm going to have much better negotiations, outcomes, relationships.

I think it's also interesting and I wonder how many. I mean, this would be an interesting one, whether you'd ever get an honest answer. The perspective of. Of those, particularly in the earliest stages of their careers. You know, so you're, you know, we talk about getting on a short list and actually I've done a video about this, about accept the fact that if you're not going to do exams, you're not going to do professional development, you won't make some of the shortlist for some of the jobs. I mean, you said, well, it's not fair, you know, I'm really good at Treasury. Yeah, you are. But, you know, we haven't got the bit of paper, we haven't got the proof that says it. Well, why, why is that important so? Well, because the other nine people standing in that line actually have done it. They've gone through that now, whether that was three years ago, five or 10 years ago, but they still got that bit of paper. And then, you know, so it goes into a perspective when you're talking about. I think it's great that, as you say, you're got those people who are trying to think what's on the other side of the table, trying to get a win win and everything else. But it's a different perspective because we also get and get the feedback, which is another way of assessing those exams. That's the right way to put it. But we get this, you know, someone will do the study, it might take them a year, it might take two years, and they get the AMCT level qualification or, you know, the equivalent as now and rename them a little bit and stuff. But people come up to me or come up to us and they say, right, I don't know the exact pricing of them now, but they're not cheap. They say, well, my employer has paid for this act. Oh, great. And they say, and I want another job. And they're like, right. And they won't give me a pay rise. I said, right, so you've done this, they've given you five grand of training. Yes. And now you've walked into your boss's office and said, I've got this extra qualification. What's my pay rise going to be? And they're like, yeah. Is that why you've done it? Yes, I have. And I think actually maybe, you know, people need to sort of step back a little bit from that. Say, right. Is that the reason? I'm not criticizing. It's just the way the world. People need to, you know, if you're going to educate yourself, you want to sort of leverage that. Of course, I just think sometimes, you know, as soon as people, you know, within a month how many of the listeners have got their act, and whether it's or CTP or other qualifications in Europe, how many of those. You guys out there are listening to this today and saying, right, once I've got that bit of paper, this is going to say, this is what you should give me as a pay rise. And that'd be. I'm not going to ask it in our treasury salary survey, but it might be something I'd like to understand more. Actually, it's quite an interesting one. I don't know if you've ever seen that, Doug, yourself.

Well, when you say win, win. I guess the classic example I have is speaking to students who want support and want leave. And I always say, offer something up. Flipping it about, let's. The candidate is now sitting in the seat of the manager. The manager is accountable for all the money they're spending, which is the money on the salaries and the money on the support they need to show that there's more value added to the organization than what they've spent. So if I'm going to have 15 grand spent on me, then I need to demonstrate preferably 30 plus of value add for the company. And I don't know, it's quite interesting. I don't know how many people can or can't do it it naturally but just to say I wonder what it looks like from the other side of that desk. I'm accountable for the costs and your costs. I suppose it's a transition from families home. I don't know. When did that penny drop for yourself? If you're thinking about, you know, this idea, I must add more value than I'm capturing for myself.

That's the way it works in a practical sense. And again I've talked about this before where sometimes where we're doing the fee negotiation with a client and they're saying, well you know, why would I pay this, you know, fee? And you know, we've got these cheaper guys. Well no use the cheaper guys. And then, then I'll be speaking to you in six to eight weeks time. And they walk back in and you know, and it's not, you know, look at me on a guy. It's much more about if I can't find you a great treasurer who say the fee for me finding them is £50,000. If I can't get you someone that adds, you know, we talk about. And I've got treasurers that will go into new jobs and they will spend. They say in their first week they want to pay back my fee, you know, but that in the first month they want to pay back their wages but then by the, and then they spend the rest of the year, the next 11 months sort of trying to continue to the multiples and add that value, you know, because decent treasurer, you know, renegotiation of their cash pools or you know, working out where actually we should be hedging this and actually why are we doing it this way within moments our treasury guys, if they're worth their salt, which and anyone listening today hopefully is because the wiseness to listen to this podcast. But joking aside, the guys that, you know, quantify and making sure that you're adding value I think is a critical thing as well and that obviously they get that through your, you know, I'm not gonna. There's a couple of great phrases that Doug's given me which I've got written down. I keep on wanting to say them but I'm gonna let him say them because they're coming from the horse's mouth, as it were. Say More about some of the stuff, if you would, that, you know, you and I spoke before about, you know, your thoughts around training as well and the learning because I thought it was very insightful.

I love this concept of win, win or no deal, which is. This is from Stephen Covey whereby he says, if we can't find this win win outcome today, go with my blessing. Perhaps we can negotiate again. And just seemed the example you said is go with the other, the cheaper guys. But saying that sincerely without any.

I had this at first I studied at the Northwestern in Chicago and we had one of a lady that had actually been a negotiator for the United nations. And we didn't realize the level of some of these people. And this, this lady was exceptional. One of my favorite stories was she started hand ran a book. At the end, she'd written a book. It was amazing. She said, do you want me to put it to Mike? I went, no, no, actually just sign it. And as soon as she did that, she was like. We had quite a bit of band. So I said brilliant, that's straight onto Amazon. She was like, I hate you English people. But one of the best bits was some of the further training she gave us. And I realized that I wasn't a very good negotiator. What I realized was I was a very one sided negotiator that I wanted to make sure that the client was happy. But at the end of the day that was sometimes not that it couldn't be the expense of me and actually to the. It's one of the things that I was, I was like, yeah, I got to do this, I'm gonna do this. And actually broke it down. And I came out, you know, it really changed my mind because I said I got the best deal. They got a really great deal. Everyone else won, you know, was. But it wasn't as win win as it could have been. And I was just fascinated. I've still got some of her information, you know, I'll try and find show notes. Amazing work. Yeah, incredible. But exactly as you say there. It's really weird to look at it.

In that situation, going with the win win and the negotiation. The other thing. And this is again directly from Stephen Covey. If I can articulate the other person's perspective to their satisfaction first, then things start going brilliantly well. So if I've understood correctly, your perspective to these, your concerns of that and you're seeking to achieve so and so and just by explaining that back to people, seems to work brilliantly well in Any sort of exchange. It seems to me that the advantage going back to your person who doesn't want to take exams is you will be taught things that are not within your current or past roles. You'll broaden it out so it will both be colleagues within your own organization, but especially the counterparty. Let's say you're in a corporate treasury and it's the bank, say loan negotiation. Why does the bank want that clause? What's the bank's perspective? And then where might we get to. These would be very typical assessment questions. Articulate both sides and then suggest how things might be compromised but just to be able to explain that back. So I think for me that's the real value of taking learning and qualifications and having to. To write down answers. So you literally have to express the point of view of the. What in worst cases is the enemy or the greedy. So and so's on the other side of. Is it our partners?

Yeah. You know, living in their shoes and everything else. And you know, I love some of the writing it was got me doing this when I first ever started recruitment actually really some of the lessons in that really helped. But you mentioned there about. And then this is the key topic with yourself Doug, about exams and learning and everything else. We were talking before about the sort of, you know, we've done touched on the online learning but more about the, you know, what people, you know, need to think about, you know, if they're perhaps earlier in their careers about learning and some of the tips you might give or later on, you know, what where are you, where do you sit in that? What sort of advice do you give to some of your students?

Continuous development and it's evidence of, let's say I'm going to recruit somebody. I want someone who will learn what we need to teach them about the role and the organization. And then we'll then take initiatives to learn, apply, develop more so and give that value back to our organization. And I want them to do that on their own initiative rather than just following through a list that has been given to them. So therefore evidence of continual development in whatever dimension really. And I've heard this from a client who I was giving finance training for. He said great. The most important thing about your training is that people are developing. I don't care what they're developing, it's just the fact they are developing something. And in practice that does seem to be rare that people are into lifelong learning and development. There seems to be a bit of a view of or perhaps has been when there's an over emphasis on qualifications. They're important but they've got a place. But they're not the be all and end all that. Once I've learned my stuff, almost the more years that pass without me doing anything else, the smarter I get. And I think the opposite is the case about five years. So in other words, the intellectual property or the intangible asset has got roughly a five year life and anything you didn't apply, you'll have forgotten again.

It's an interesting one there. You say that. I'm sorry, I'll be selfish here. I'm a who works for Sarah Cannon or a lot of people who will speak to us will speak to Aera. She'll be your first point of contact, but I'm putting her on. She's on a training course on Wednesday and it's something I've been keen to get her on about copywriting and writing different adverts. We have a very honest voice. You know, we see. We see different people, advertising roles and things like that. There's a lot of BS out there. I hate it, you know, I said, look, right, with an honest voice. If the role is going to be rubbish, right, it's going to be a rubbish role. For the first three months you go in there, it's going to be really challenging. Over the next three months, you're going to improve everything else. And then the sort of six to nine months, you're really going to get on top of it. By year one, this is going to be just like a, you know, tuning a car. It's going to be a fully tuned. Put that in there. Because otherwise, you know, you're setting someone up to fail and it frustrates. But going back to Avery and going on the course, I want my return on that course, you know, that client of yours and they're saying, I just want someone learning. I'm not sure. I'm not saying I buy into it. I think it's a great idea but very altruistic. But how can they justify it? They've got a massive budget or big pockets.

I would say that they're switched off.

That's what it's. Damn.

It's from the military. I spent a brief time in the Territorial army, but there was a phrase that someone would come into the room and they'd say, switch on. So essentially, is somebody engaged or not engaged? So in support of the client, and it would be my view, so long as somebody is switched on, in other words, more of their engaged brain is firing away Then they will move in directions that are positive. They will keep growing and developing. And if people are switched off, they're not productive, not valuable. It doesn't mean that they don't understand what the organizational issues are. It is surprising. I mean, they can say treasury or business is about everything. Treasury is about cash, therefore treasury is about everything because everything turns back into cash eventually.

And actually, just to put it in perspective, I would say I'm not putting her on the course. She wanted to go on the course. It was, you know, we identified back last year, so that what, what else should I be doing? And she said, actually, I would like some development and coaching on this. Could you guess the right. I can give you this level. I said, actually there's, you know, some other levels that you can go to. And this guy's great. What do you think? And she was like, oh, I'd like do that also. Danielle, our ex colleague, she done it and she made a heck of a difference to her writing and performance and everything else, which love, again, it was driven, you know, self driven. So going back, right back around some of the other stuff is not just for a pay rise. It's not just. This is more. Makes her life more interesting, actually, and more enriched. I don't know. Yeah, you see the similar.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's more fun to do a great job. Much more fun.

And before we, you know, head towards the end of the program, still got another, you know, five or ten minutes, but, you know, what are the other areas? You know, I think that again, we've deep dived here. We've got people listening today and they're going, well, this is all very well, you guys, you know, having this chat. I've got a day job to do, I've got loads of treasury things coming at me. You know, what would you say if those guys are stepping back or if they're looking at, you know, assessing themselves, what the sort of ideas you would try and throw out there to them.

Would you say, pick up as many qualifications as you can, speak to as many people as you can, write as much as you can. I think that the value of there's been no greater opportunity, ability to write, social media, etc. And if people are in the habit of writing, you actually improve your thinking as you write and people will engage with you. I guess it's appropriate engagement and responses and it's always have a plan, any plan. In other words, if I'm motivated, if I'm switched on, if I've got a sense of movement and direction, then I'm going to move purposefully. It might mean I then say, whoops, that didn't quite work out. Let's backpedal or let's take a different tack. But to be moving with a sense of purpose and long and short term goals and let yourself change your mind appropriately as well. So, I mean, this is the real tricky bit is don't do things for too long, but don't ship out too quickly either. And I guess that's then where your role comes in, is you can, you've seen the long, longer term path for so many different people, ideally can support those kinds of decisions.

It's interesting what you say about getting that learning way, but the first ever podcast I did, and for anyone listening back to that first ever podcast, I can just say, sorry, I got better. All right, so Sarah Jane Hall, Global Treasurer, gsk. Her advice was very similar to yours where she just said, look, learn, learn a bit more and then keep learning. And it was just, oh, okay. She said, look, if you get those bits of paper, whether it's an mba, whether it's an act, whether it's, you know, whatever qualification, whatever, if that, you, you let people never take that away, you know, it's always in your back pocket and it's always going to help you in some ways because you're choosing to do it sort of thing, which. Yeah, and that holds true, you know, 100 episodes later and it's, you know, what does she know, eh? Sarah Jane hall, global treasure of gsk. Oh, yeah, look at that career. She's an absolute legend and wonderful lady.

Wonderful.

Yeah. So it's. Yeah, yeah, that's one of the key things I would say to the people listening to, you know, listen back to that. And actually if it's backed up by her and actually there's a number of other ones we've done where people have just said it was Connor ma, he made a few moves and one of the key things he said was jumping between roles and things. But one of the key bits he brought out was don't just rely on it in, you know, just singularity, but as part of a blended thing. But it was again, it was part of the mix sort of thing as well. Yeah, that was a good episode as well.

The other thought I have is the sorts of learning I'm undertaking and encouraging others to do. Some of them are quite easy, they don't take long and they're not expensive. So there is a thought, you know, every qualification or every academic thing I do Gets harder, takes longer, it's more expensive. Just to take an example of, recently passed an advanced driving test. It cost me less than £100 in total. It's been immensely useful in just observing behavior and observing information flows. So it's been fantastically helpful for development and I would quite recommend it to anybody who can drive a car and is working treasury because it will help you with treasury because it provides a very clear metaphor and a very stark reflection back to you and oh, this is how I'm acting on the road. So that's how I'm acting in all other departments as well. For instance, one of the precepts is take use and give information and review what you just did. I was out for a drive with my wife the other day. Something was going on. I saw somebody put their indicator on. I didn't modify what I was doing. We didn't have an accident or anything, but it could have been improved upon. And then I said to her afterwards, well, I took the information but I didn't use it. I didn't think through why is that person got their indicate they were turning down a little side road that I hadn't registered of that might be somewhere someone wants to turn down.

Yeah, hadn't quite clicked sort of thing.

Yeah. But it's just, it's then applicable back into abstractions, if you might say, all.

The other content, day to day things.

And quite interestingly, the examiner taught me a lot about teaching and motivation.

Oh, right.

So the first time my piracy said, how did he put it? I'm pleased to tell you, you've passed as you might expect. There's one or two things we need to talk about. And then he said, blah, blah, blah, told me the feedback then, you've got a silver. I hope you're pleased with that. And just this little phrase I hope you're pleased with that was very interesting. So it was motivating to me to go back and improve and I did get a gold three years later.

Yeah, it's always out there, isn't it? It's like, well, you've done well, but not quite that well. I'll get there one day.

Yeah. And indeed my instructor, this same examiner, had said to them, you've got a gold, of course, Mike, but you could have done so much more.

Yeah, but well done, well done, son. Oh, cheers to that.

Realism and balance.

Yeah. Keeping keeping the two hand in hand.

So precisely we're wrapping up today's show.

Tell us if you like. And the guys, guys listening today, you know, maybe again Again, as, as you say every week, you know, people want to maybe connect with yourself and learn about, you know, some of the courses, some of the other things and stuff. What are the top three tips? Is something sometimes people want to follow. Treasurers and their treasure careers. Now, I think that people want to connect to you because I think you got, you know, some really interesting ideas and actually, you know, definitely follow you as well. That's one of the other things you might want to do. So people look at Doug's background and he might choose to follow him because he's got some really interesting views and some of the things. But on top of that and looking at yourself, what are the tips that you would give to people listening today and say they've been intrigued enough and they actually. Yeah, what should I be doing? What would you say to close today's show?

Share your aspirations. Find an accountability buddy. Share your aspirations. Thinking about using LinkedIn, for example. Just say, I've done one recently. I'm following the Stephen Covey 30 Day Proactivity Challenge. Just put stuff up out there, think of people you can approach and buddy up with somebody that you dare to share with. Here's what I'm planning to do this year, these five years, today, the rest of today, if you get engaged in that sort of a process, you'll get a massive lift in your motivation and productivity.

Great stuff.

Buddy up short.

Buddy up Great. We'll have that. We'll have that in the show notes. Doug, amazing for today's show. Thanks for your. Some of the insights.

Great pleasure.

Oh, thank you, sir.

Huge pleasure and really enjoyed it.

Oh, yeah, it's great. And so, yeah, say we'll put a link to Doug's LinkedIn profile in the show notes. If it's right, follow him, maybe connect with him if you think he's going to help you in your treasury career. You have really good insights there, I think. Lovely to chat with you as always. Yeah, let's keep talking in the future, sir. Thanks for your time.

Thank. Thank you so much, Mike, and thank you for your wonderful insights as well.

Pleasure. Many thanks.