Why Qualifications and Adaptability Are Key to a Successful Treasury Career with Jane Pilcher

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. Welcome to today's show where I feel like I'm in slightly reflective mood. That's probably the best way. It's now summer of 2021. We're coming out of the pandemic and as we recover, many of our past clients are actually reaching out to us and asking us to recruit for them once again. One of these is the amazing, the lovely Jane Pilcher. She's the treasurer, Anglian Water Group awg, and we're currently recruiting two assistant treasurer roles for her. We've also got some other roles are coming through at the moment. So I thought, you know, I, I don't know, I was briefing some of the candidates the other day and say, well, have a listen to the podcast I did with Jane. When I really listened to it as a bit of a retrospective, if you like, I thought, wow, number one, how much have I improved over the past 165 plus podcasts? Things like having a better microphone, less breathy. Sorry about that. Lots of heavy breathing in some of the previous ones. Don't know what that was about. But also asking shorter, better, more insightful questioning questions. Well, I can answer questions and shutting up. That's a good thing. I mean, I know it's a podcast and all that and you wouldn't want me to talk, but nothing is to be quiet, listen to what the treasurer's got to say, interpret it and give it back and take your role if you like, as a listener. So as well as that, I then also thought what a great conversation I had. It was still 100 relevant today. Yes, the organization's moved on. They've recently issued a sustainability bond and you need to look at that and we'll put some details that in the show notes. But I thought this is well worth republishing and I wanted to say as well, if you want to work for this great organization and an amazing treasurer, then you need to let us know as soon as possible. We were loving recruiting these new roles for Jane and the team there. But as I say each week, that's enough from me. We're gonna get back to the episode with Jane from all that time ago. Sorry about the heavy breathing, but anyway, as I say each week, that's enough for me. Let's get on with the show. So welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview leading treasury professionals about their treasury careers. We talk about how they first started in treasury, where they are now and where they see themselves and the treasury profession going next this week's show, I'm delighted to be joined by Jane Pilcher, the group Treasurer at Anglian Water Group. Anglian Water's principal business is Anglion Water, the regulated water and sewerage group which supplies water and recycling services to over 6 million customers across the east of England and up into Hartlepool. The group also includes Anglian Venture holdings, that's the investment and management vehicle responsible for the commercial businesses across the UK and Ireland. With over 100 million invested to date, businesses turnover is in excess of 500 million and they offer customers a wealth of expertise in the water industry and infrastructure related sectors. Drawing on all this, what I wanted to do was really get into Jane's career. Jane's responsible for all finance and treasury activities of the group. Her prime responsibility is obviously around group debt, debt, bank investor relationship, good all round group treasurer role in career highlights. In August 2017, Jane led the launch of the group's inaugural Green Bond which we may go onto and talk about and other responsibilities include ALM management of the 1 billion plus pension fund. So pretty busy times, but taking it back a stage. Jane, you've had a number of years within Treasury. If we go back to the dim distant past, you got your first start, you first started in banking before making that move into treasury, is that right?

Yes, that's right. So I started off going into banking and worked in London dealing with large corporates, but took the opportunity following a house move to the Cambridge area to move into commercial banking. I think I always thought that moving into commercial banking as opposed to corporate banking would be okay as long as I kind of moved in at the right level. But very, very quickly realised that I'd made a big mistake working. Working locally for me with kind of much smaller corporates was not what I expected. The kind of the culture, the environment where I was working was very, very different to kind of big banking. And so after a short period of time, about six weeks and lots of very expensive to compensate myself for making a bad career decision, my husband decided that I couldn't afford to keep buying these treats any longer and I had to go back to where? To London. So ended up finding a job, moving back to where? To bank in London. But before doing that had lunch with a finance director of a company locally who was one of my clients when I worked at banking in London. Anyway, long story short, he said that if ever I wanted to move into treasury and jump across the pond, then there would always be an opportunity for me to do that. Which after quite a lot of kind of soul searching, made, you know, which was quite a difficult decision to move from banking, where I'd been since first starting work, to move across to Treasury. So in 1990, I moved across to be group treasurer of a small manufacturing company located just outside of Cambridge. And they'd not had a Treasury function before. So I went in with a clean sheet of paper and looked to kind of grow and develop that. So it was first for the company, but also kind of first for me going into the profession as well.

And what was Treasury? What did you think treasury was at that stage or what was it for that group?

I think for me it was a great opportunity. I've been going out and talking to kind of corporates about their kind of risk management and it was a great opportunity to then kind of go the other side of the, you know, the side of the table to actually kind of do the work myself to understand where those risks were. So, yes, I'd been starting to do my treasurer's exams. Obviously, having done my banking exams, I was, you know, kind of, you know what I thought, kind of all briefed up, but then kind of moving in. Suddenly looking at it through a finance director's eye, it did look different. So I spent quite a lot of time having to kind of demonstrate to not only the auditors but to the finance directors that he did have some foreign currency exposures that he didn't think he had. And so I think it was very much kind of a risk management at that time. It was talking to banks, getting the help and support from the banks. But for me, my biggest area was being able to convert the kind of the finance director and the auditors to looking at things through, through a different lens as opposed to just an accounting lens.

And then you did that for what, six years?

Yes.

And then how did the move come about to. Well, you know, a number of years ago now, sort of 20 plus years ago, to angling water. How did that come about? Sort of, you know, a printing company to a water group. How did that come about?

Yes, well, I was, I was kind of headhunted in terms of, you know, I was approached and there was, you know, this job was kind of coming available at Anglian and was I, was I interested? Which obviously great opportunity to think about, but I'd recently kind of gone through a change of finance director. So the finance director that had recruited me had decided to move on. I had a new finance director coming on board. So it really kind of, kind of the kind of the request kind of came through around a similar time to kind of the finance director kind of leaving. And for me it was then a case. I think, you know, one of the important things and one of the questions you're going to ask me later is, you know, kind of any tips and things for other people kind of moving into treasury or managing their career. But one of the things that was really important to me and kind of helped me with kind of the position at Anglian was was that one of the banking contacts I'd got locally was the kind of the key banker to the Angling Water group at the time. Very much had the kind of the confidence of the then finance director. And so for me, having had this approach to say, would you like to move to Angling Water, which is probably the largest employer by a very big way in the region? The first thing I did was got in touch with Jean and said, right, okay, how do I get this one? How do I make certain that I get there? And, and anyway, the rest is history. I managed to get the position at Anglian and as you say, I've been there for a long time.

And when you joined Anglian, because it's gone through an evolution as well as your role and everything else, but so you started out as an internationally listed business and now many years later is a private business. What was it like when you first started? Obviously that may have held an appeal. What was the group like when you walked in day one sort of thing.

Very, very different to now. And I was actually kind of held two to six months notice from my previous employer and eventually managed to get them to agree to let me go a couple of days a week for the last couple of months of working out my notice. And when I first went along for those first couple of days, I thought, oh my goodness, should I be going back? Have I made the wrong decision? And you know, a lot of people nowadays talk about culture, but it was something which absolutely kind of hit you when you walked into Anglian Water. It was an ex privatised, it was an ex kind of public company. It was an organization trying to change its culture. And boy did kind of culture hit you in terms of the changes that they knew they had to be making. It was very much kind of rule following and, you know, pretty, pretty kind of hard for somebody who'd been in kind of big corporate banking to kind of, and following corporate banking, moving to an entrepreneurial company to then move almost to kind of going to work for the UK government.

Right.

It felt very, very kind of different back then. The water company was probably not seen as, as the kind of the important bit it was growing the business internationally was then caught the attention of the then kind of senior executive. And so for the first part of my career at Anglian, it was about expansion overseas. It was looking after shareholders. We undertook some share buybacks, but it was all about kind of developing that work overseas. Then we had a very challenging price review, so I joined in 96. The challenging price review was in 2000 and suddenly the water company became very big, very important because it went to the heart of value of the organization. So I then ended up working almost like a management buyout in terms of what was going to be the future of the water company. Were we going to do a management buyout, were we going to delist the business? And ended up almost kind of working in a little bunker on the outside of Huntingdon. The rest of the business were told that they couldn't talk to the very small team of us that were working on this kind of alternative project and we had no duty of care to our previous employer. So we were very much kind of set aside as a potential kind of buyout team. But the end result of that was the board of directors decided they didn't to want, want to kind of lose Anglian Water from the organisation and we decided not to go ahead with that, but instead we looked to undertake a financial restructuring of the organisation. So that then moved to my second stage of my life at Anglian Water, where I undertook a large financial reorganisation and became group treasurer of then the water company, as opposed to the overall group very much focused on managing debt, managing investors, managing rating agencies and, and ensuring the company operated within the, within the financial conditions that we've been set.

And then was that the move from public to private at that stage or was that later?

That was still public. We were still a public company at that stage. But then in 2006, end of 2006, we were acquired by a consortium of pension funds and at that point we then went from private public to private. So then that was the third stage of my career at Anglian in terms of managing the kind of the water company. We pretty much by that stage had disposed of the non water company assets. We still had a small amount which were continuing to be disposed of. But what the pension funds were purchasing was essentially kind of a water company which was being financed by Bidet and that was what they wanted. They wanted to be investing in infrastructure and to have an inflation linked asset. In the third part of my career.

When I spoke to Dana Laidhold, she was with a group that went from, with Carlisle Investment Group and they went from private ownership to public and she particularly talked about how she enjoyed the rigor that that put around it and everything else. For you that's obviously a transition the other way. So from public and you know, the reporting requirements, everything else, but back to private. What was that move like for you as a treasurer?

The water industry in the UK has got a license obligation to operate as though it was a public company. And so to a certain extent from my perspective, in terms of kind of managing debt, there hasn't been a lot of difference in moving from public ownership to private ownership. Other than that the shareholders sit around the table of the top board of the organization and so the role of the finance director and chief executive, they can ask the shareholders there face to face what their views are as opposed to kind of engaging with very, very kind of many shareholders. So from a debt perspective, for me it hasn't made a huge amount of difference because I still have to do the same reporting. I still have to. Well, I choose to, to still engage with our debt investors in the same way as I did when we were publicly owned. The difference is the shareholders sit around the table at that very top company board that we have.

And you've got different, being a water company, you've got different kinds of regulation in terms of the actual industry itself, you've got ofwat and people like that. And then terms of treasury you've got various regulation coming at you from lots of different sources as it were. How do you deal with that and sort of keep that manageable?

Well, I think from you know, a water company's perspective we have to manage rules and regulations and compliance. That's just something we have to do. And so we're good at it. We're very good at kind of managing disasters, we're very good at managing those kind of one off unexpected events as well as kind of making certain we kind of do all of that compliance. So in terms of the world of kind of financial compliance, to us it kind of just feels like a natural extension of what the business is doing day to day. The financial obligations that we've got in our debt structure are numerous. But from my perspective it enables treasury to keep at the heart of the organisation to understand what's kind of going on. And the business is very well used to kind of reporting because that's what we have to do with all the different regulators who, who give us our license and monitor our performance.

And in terms of, you know, you've been there since 96 and you walked into a Treasury team, I think, you know, three or four people through to now. How was, how has treasury evolved over that time? If you look, you know, throughout that time, you know, tagging on the sort of move from Anglian as it evolved as well as a group, how's treasury changed to cope with that as well?

I think it's changed immensely. I think from a professional perspective in terms of the team, I'm not saying the team when I joined it weren't qualified, but they weren't kind of qualified from a Treasury perspective. And so one of the, kind of the biggest challenges for me when I kind of walked in was to get people to try to see the bigger picture, understand what they were doing, how all of the components that they did kind of fitted in with each other. All of the kind of things that people learn when they do that. We're doing their treasury exams. And one person who was working for me kind of fairly soon after I joined was starting to do his treasury exams at the end of the first year of doing his exams. I can now understand why you were so shocked when you walked into this organization because now having spent a year doing my, you know, kind of early part of my treasury exams, I now understand what, you know, the treasury industry and the treasury profession is about.

Yeah.

So I think that professionalism in terms of people understanding kind of treasury as a profession, people undertaking their exams, understanding kind of the kind of the segregation of roles, you know, front, middle, back office, that's changed immensely, I think the use of systems. When I first joined, there was somebody who used to sit in front of a terminal, write down the bank balances from the reported online from the bank and then somebody was sitting kind of re key all of that information into an Excel spreadsheet and then re key information into a Treasury management system. So the use of systems and it that has also kind of changed hugely over that period. And accounting, I think when I first joined treasury, accounting of debt and interest was done semi annually for statutory accounting. We now do kind of management reporting on a monthly basis. And so everybody kind of understands all of our kind of our interest and our derivative exposures, whereas that was only done every six months when I first joined.

And now the shape of the team, obviously we've helped with some of that. You've grown it now to what, 13 members of staff, is that right?

I think it's actually 15 at the moment. We've got a couple of apprenticeships and I think it very much kind of reflects the way the organisation has grown. When I first joined Anglian, the expectation was that the water industry had had a huge period of capital expenditure to enable the UK to comply with the the regulations in entering into Europe. So we had a huge amount of capital expenditure to comply with European regulations and the expectation was that once that was done, the business would kind of gradually depreciate in terms of then just kind of providing an operational service to customers. Whereas the reality is the size of the business has grown significantly because of continued growth in people and population in our region, but also the ever demand standards for kind of water and the environment which have been adopted in Europe. And so as we've needed to spend capital expenditure, the size of our business has continued to grow. And the change, as I said, when we moved to the financial restructuring that I undertook in 2002, we saw the proportion of the business that was financed by debt increased significantly. So the role and importance of treasury took on an increase in staff at that point of time to reflect the importance of debt to the organisation.

And then financing wise and funding, you've sort of gone through that cycle back again because you did US private placement as well and you got your cash balances changing as well, looking at it. So it seems it's sort of changing once again.

I think that's right. I think that with the size of our debt portfolio, we need to make certain that we've got access to range of different markets, a range of different maturities, so that we don't go and have one market become full on us and then how do we raise even next slice of debt? So having access to a range of different markets is really important. So in the past we've accessed the Euromarket. I haven't got any Euro debt outstanding at the moment, but in the past we have. We've got sterling capital markets debt, US private placements, I've got some yen placements, I've got bank debt, but I think the key has been to access debt from a variety of different markets.

And one of the. I know it's quite a different market in the us, but when you went out there, I know you've been out there and explained the Anglian Water story to those guys. What was their opinion of you guys? Why were they interested.

Anglian been financing in the US private placement market for. I think we were one of the first UK companies to kind of go into that market. When I joined the company, they actually had Samson US private placement debt outstanding. But when we did the financial restructuring in 2002, all but two of those note holders chose to exit. So I'd always considered that the US private placement market would not therefore be keen in going back into what we kind of called at the time the kind of securitised water industry. So when I was persuaded by one of my banks to go back into that market, I went into it very cautiously. I didn't quite believe that the investors would want to do that, but spent a lot of time kind of training, teaching, educating investors in terms of how they're protected from a legal perspective. And so we've then had a number of very successful debt transactions within the US market, but very much kind of took our time to educate and show investors the protections they had. So it was worth their while to kind of understand the protections they were getting, which were actually kind of probably much greater than they had previously. And then on that basis we were able to do our first transaction and also then to do a number of subsequent transactions.

And all the treasury is managed from your UK based Treasury team, is that right?

Yes, that's right, yes. We've got very, very little business, as you mentioned, Anglian Venture holdings, we've got some business in Ireland, but the vast majority of what the group does is based within the UK and Stirling and.

Within the team, you know, focusing on that team, you know, we've recruited successfully for the group before, but in your words, what are you looking for when you're bringing those guys to join guys and girls, you know, to join the team with yourself? What is it about you're looking for people, is it. I know when I spoke to Sarah Jane hall at GlaxoSmithKline, she's very much like yourself. She's very pro qualifications in treasury and very pro the act and various other bits. But is it firstly, you know, qualifications you're looking for and then the rest, or is it attitude or what is it when, you know, a CV or resume lands on your desk?

I think that recruiting in Huntingdon and recruiting in treasury is, you know, they're kind of two, like, you know, they are two big, two big challenges and one of the things that we are trying to kind of focus on at the moment is it's kind of home growing talent, so bringing people in at a junior level As I said, we've now got two apprentices in the scheme, in the team, and looking to bring in then people who have got good degrees, who are looking to do something different. So we're looking for high levels of kind of university graduates, but with an aptitude and a passion to do something differently. So that's, I think, what we're looking for at kind of the most junior levels in terms of the more senior levels. I think it's looking for people who want to grow, want to develop, want to do something that's different from the mainstream. And that's often, I think, the challenge with bringing people into treasury who've not worked in treasury before. I often say to people, if you want to kind of come in every day, know what you're going to do, exactly the same every single day, and then go home at a set time, well, then, treasury is not the same, not the place for you. But if you want to come into to somewhere where you might think you're going to do something today, but then suddenly energy prices fall and we want to kind of purchase some forward energy, you've got to be adaptable and excited by, wow, great, that's an opportunity. I'm then going to take it. And that stuff that I was going to do today, I'll manage expectations and I'll try and do that tomorrow. And so it's people who. It's aptitude, I think, for people, so people who are wanting to grow, wanting to learn. They've got a base level of education, which obviously is at a high level, but that they. It's that adaptability and an enthusiasm that I'm looking for.

And you. I know that you've become involved in the act, the association of treasurers in the UK in the past, and you're an FCT as well, so a Fellow of the Association. Why do you think that's such a key thing? I think, you know, I pretty much know the answer, but this is more for the listeners. And why you think it's a good thing to have on on your cv.

I think it gives that base training in terms of the role of treasury and drew comment earlier on in terms of the person in the team who started to understand why. I was quite dismayed when I first joined Anglian until he started doing his treasurer's exams. I think what it does, it gives you a level of knowledge, a level of training to understand the kind of the risks for an organisation and the stewardship that we're providing in Treasury. So for me, that's why that training is so important. I think the courses, the conferences that the treasurers association, corporate treasurers organise are a great way for people to understand what other people were doing. Whether it's on systems, whether it's on cash flow management, on debt management, it brings together kind of like minded people who can then kind of learn and grow from each other.

And as the treasury career grows, as it were, and we just talked there a little bit, you mentioned about how it's changed in the time you've been doing it, systems IT and re keying stuff. But looking to the future, you've seen treasury change drastically over the time. Where do you see it going next?

Well, there's a lot of talk at the moment in terms of automation, in terms of what can be kind of done, AI in terms of what can be done, in terms of having to have people. So I do see it's going to be potentially kind of smaller treasury teams of the future, greater use of systems, but in terms of the calibre of people who are working in treasury or in kind of wider finance organisations, it's going to be kind of smarter, more professional people so that you still need to be able to kind of have the kind of the thinking, the strategic thinking behind an organization making certain that you're able to interpret what the systems are doing to know that it's right rather than just having a black box say here's my kind of my debt number, here's my interest number and nobody questioning and challenging it. So I think it's going to be much more a case of review, strategy and challenge as opposed to kind of production and kind of routine. So I think the role of an individual in treasury is going to be changing which is why, you know, we're seeing this kind of change in our own treasury team with having some of the more routine roles undertaken by people at that start of their very early start of their career. But they're people who we would be expecting over a three year period to be moving kind of quite quickly through the organization.

And with that, you know, you say about it's developing, how do you see your role continuing to develop from here?

I mean, I've always said I'll leave an organisation when I get bored and I've clearly not got bored because I've been here for a very long time, never a dull moment in the water industry as we'd say it. I think part of what's exciting about treasury is you don't know quite what's around the corner. It's being able to lead to the changes. So, you know, we've got all the way through this interview without kind of mentioning kind of the Brexit word, but I think for a treasurer, that's, in many ways it brings more volatility, more uncertainty, but kind of greater excitement as well. So, you know, what are the challenges that we're trying to help and protect our organisations from? So I think it's that changing world sustainability is a huge, great focus for us. At Angling Water, we issued our first green bond last year. We're going to try and raise all the finance that we can as green finance. So working with other stakeholders to try to help investors see the importance of climate change, to kind of work with politicians and other stakeholders as we look to get more green finance. These are all things that I wouldn't have envisaged 18 months ago that I'd be focusing on. Yeah, that's what my team are doing now. It's all fresh. I would never have expected that. You know, Lesley, my assistant, was out visiting kind of Corby Treatment Works a couple of days ago because she's picked one of the green bond projects that we're financing to come and talk to the team about, and that's helping her grow and develop, but also helping the team to understand what the money that we're raising is being used to finance. I never would have expected that that's what we'd be doing 18 months ago.

No. So it's constantly changing and developing. And with yourself, you've had a very successful treasury career thus far. You know, we're still continuing the development. Someone listens in and, you know, to wrap up today's interview, where, you know, someone's saying, hang on, I want to steal Jane's job in the future. I want. Or I want to copy that. What would you say, what advice would you give? What bits, nuggets would you give out to those guys to say, do this, do this and follow me sort of thing? I did it on a speech this week at Treasury Leaders Summit and saying, look at people's LinkedIn profiles and say that this is the steps that Jane made, this is what she did. You know, you've done a number of different things, but this is the steps that she took. And then she's the group treasurer. Successful group treasurer for Angry Water. What would you draw out? You know, perhaps two or three of those that, you know, think, actually, this is what I need to do tomorrow.

Yeah, I think it's. I think for me it's. Yes, it's about Kind of working hard, getting on with people, making certain you've got good people kind of working for you as well. But it's having that, having an open mind, being willing to kind of challenge the status quo. I think one of the first finance directors I worked for said, you know, keep opening all of those doors. When you hit the brick wall at the end, don't try and knock it down yourself, come back to me and I'll help you kind of unlock that kind of brick wall at the end. So I think it's trying to, you know, don't be scared to kind of challenge things, to do things differently, but make sure you express those views to the right people and not to the wrong people.

So doing collaboration and then, you know, in treasury terms, you've obviously, you know, studied all the exams and you've gone the way through that. And I know that you do other non exec work. Is that developing because you were the Cambridge building site and did Loughborough as well. Are those things that you think people need to look at doing from external to just doing your day, you know, very busy day job?

I think that's right. And I've certainly had kind of. I've got one person in my team at the moment who I've encouraged too to kind of join an industry. They were looking for somebody to kind of join a collaboration unit. So he's joined that. I had somebody else in the team. One of our non exec directors was looking for somebody to join as a non exec director on one of the smaller companies he was involved with in Cambridge and so he did that. So I think it's a great way of being able to kind of grow your. Grow your kind of your kind of skills and behaviors. So not so much the technical side, the kind of the softer side, but I think it's a great way for people to, you know, sometimes with kind of treasury and Finance, you can be very introverted. You can sit and focus on your day job making certain that you get everything done and you forget to kind of look up and smell the roses. I think working and doing, whether it's a non exec director job, whether it's joining a committee with the association of Corporate Treasurers or working on pensions or whatever, taking people away from their day job to enable them, to make them realise how much value they're adding, but to kind of talk to other people is a really good skill for people too to get.

Fantastic. I want to leave it there because I think that was a great wrap up to today's interview. Thanks very much, Jane. If people want to connect with you, best way is looking up through LinkedIn and maybe reaching out that way. Is that the best way?

Yes, that's fine.

We'll put Jane's details in the show notes but all remains for me is thank you very much, Jane, and looking forward to the bright future with yourselves and Angley Water continuing.

Great, thanks, Mike.

Thanks very much. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate the podcast, there's a lot of hard work to produce every week it be amazing. Just take say 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Those that think actually this is what I need to do tomorrow.

Yeah, I think for me, yes, it's about kind of working hard, getting on with people, making certain you've got good people kind of working for you as well. But it's having an open mind, being willing to kind of challenge the status quo. I think one of the first finance directors I worked for said, you know, keep opening all of those doors. When you hit the brick wall at the end, don't try and knock it down yourself, come back to me and I'll help you kind of unlock that kind of brick wall at the end. So I think it's trying to, you know, don't be scared to kind of challenge things to, to do things differently and, but make sure you express those views to the right people and not to the wrong people.

So doing collaboration and then, you know, in treasury terms, you've obviously, you know, studied all the exams and you've gone the way through that and I know that you do other non exec work. Is that sort of developing because you were the Cambridge building site and did Loughborough as well. Are those things that you think people need to look at doing from external to just doing your day, you know, very busy day job?

I think that's right. And I've certainly had kind of, I'VE got one person in my team at the moment who I've encouraged to, to kind of join an industry because they were looking for somebody to kind of join a collaboration unit. So he's joined that. I had somebody else in the team. One of our non exec directors was looking for somebody to join as a non exec director on one of the smaller companies he was involved with in Cambridge. And so he did that. So I think.