Why Treasury Needs to be an Effective Partner to the Business with Tamara Saront-Eisner

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Cornwood podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next. In this week's show, I'm delighted to be joined by Tamara Sarant Eisner, the VP Treasury, a US and America's hub at Air Liquid. Now Tamara, as always, will explain a little bit more about the group. But present in 80 countries, 67,000 employees plus and serving more than 3.7 million customers and patients. Molecules for life, matter and energy. That's what it says on the website. I'm going to get tomorrow to explain all that, but suffice to say we've already had a chat tomorrow night before. I'm really looking forward to today's show because got some really good views, I think some really interesting things. Tamara is also on the board of the afp, which I think is great. You know, we talked a lot about that. But actually going all the way back to her beginnings. This is Tamara's the first Argentinian I've actually spoken to on the show. So Tamara, maybe we start with that when you first ever qualified back in the day and how you discovered then finance and treasury. And as always, it's your show. Over to you.

Hello Mike. Hello everybody. I'm delighted to be on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me.

Pleasure.

So I am originally from Argentina. I studied economics and I was to my path of being working on the Central bank of Argentina. At that time one of my professors called me to work in the largest and at the time privatized company in Argentina. He was the chief economist for the CEO and the opportunity cost was really big. Joined the team in the planning department working with him. It was super exciting, super exciting times in Argentina, I have to say. And I was very clear that I was going to continue work studying in my postgrad degree. So I say it's a year, year and a half. I need to save for my postgrad studies. I got my chevening scholarship and I was accepted at LSE in London. So there I went to do my master's and potentially my PhD in economics. I had a great time, I met really nice people, great studying tough. And unfortunately I have to return to Argentina for personal matters. I rejoined ypf, which was the company I was working and there's where I joined as a corporate finance analyst, the treasurer and the treasurer group. So I started there. My actual treasury journey. I love, absolutely love Corporate finance. I like treasury in the sense that it gives you a very holistic view of the company. So here we were in an investment grade company in a non investment grade country. So we were doing structure finance. Essentially I was exposed both to the equity side, to the debt side. And that's how I continue developing my career. Eventually the company was bought by the Spanish oil and gas company Repsol. I stay with them, continue working with the CFO at the time. So there I started specializing more in. I got investor relationship for the Argentinian entity. So YPF was still half of the company of the new company. So it was a very interesting growth path.

Again you stuck within oil and energy and natural resources and things like that. That seems to be a sort of a bit of a theme with yourself. How have you seen that industry evolve in partnership with your role? Because you came in as a corporate finance analyst and grew through that. Have you seen it always affected by the oil price and things? Is that always a theme there, would you say?

Well, definitely these companies, I mean big conglomerate, they were both integrated companies. So definitely the oil price will affect is not as an independent that you're really exposed to crude oil prices. I think that working in the oil and gas or even on the energy industry is such a great industry. A lot of technology, the cycle, it's a long cycle. The business cycle is a long business cycle. So it gives you very sort of view of cash flows and how to invest and how to understand the industry. I have always been and I have always liked to be close to the business in Argentina. When I was still working before the takeover from Repsol, we were working on structuring the first export natural gas export note. So that gave me the opportunity to be working very, very close to our natural gas commercial team and learning the contract and how we could structure with those commercial contracts. How can we structure some senior export notes? That's something that if when I reflect on my career, I always have liked to be close to the business. So of course I was working in the headquarters and that's a very strategic place. But I have always tried to learn from the business people, the commercial side of it and understand really how can we partner from the corporate finance side, from the finance side, how can we partner and be a true partner to the business? So super interesting then as it is, Argentina crises are always there. It's a cyclical theme. And there was a big, big crisis in 2001. What that meant for me was another opportunity. So there is always crisis, always bring the bad side but also there are opportunities. I became very much involved in project financing and from the side I was the representative of the company. So the transformation that those project financing, which are very interesting structures to isolate risks, political risk or some other type of risk, they are also in a sense, rigid structure. So when something you have a major Crisis, the Meccano, I.e. project finance, needs to be pulled back with care because one piece falls and the whole mechano can fall apart. So that was very interesting dealing with bondholder. Here the pieces were that the contract were dollar denominated and suddenly in Argentina they became unlawful to have dollar denominated contract. So there we need to work with all bondholders, very long and institutional bondholders to explain, to request patients, but really to restructure the project. So with that I continue working in Argentina, but that also gave me the exposure. And that is the second theme that when I looked through my career, I have always been exposed to very senior management from the very beginning in my career. I like it and probably I did it well. So that gives you to be known.

Tamara, sorry to interrupt, but when you say you did it well, is that because you, you're very, you focus on managing upwards or is it just, you know, what people are going to want to demand from you? Again, we'll have people listening today that will be a similar situation. There'll be core finance analyst manager, treasury analyst manager. They'll be at that level, but. And they're going to be looking at maybe managing upwards and things what. What would you say to those guys to be thinking about?

So the first thing is that I was exposed and I don't know if I was totally, you know, unconscious, but the first thing is that I was very secure in my technical expertise. So I could entertain conversation and explain difficult matters and technical matters to VPs. From a very early stage in my career, I was not, not shy to talk with them. And I feel very secure in talking technical matters. So we could entertain that conversation. So they see me, somebody that, you know, I can be trusted and reliable. So that I think it is important. Because then of course the challenge is how do you explain technical matters in a plain vanilla language? But that's something also that you develop. So I think that to be exposed to senior management is an opportunity. It's an opportunity that, yes, we need to know how to do it, you learn how to do it, but we should not shy away because then you are recognized, then you are known, and these are the people that eventually are going to make decisions. So when the CFO of the group from Spain was coming to Argentina maybe once, twice a year. I was always trying to be in the list, to present something, to have a conversation, and that's how I was maybe consider one of the rising stars of the finance team and how I came to the US Where I am currently. So I came as a kind of a CFO role for the subsidiaries that were in the US For Repsol.

And was that because you, as you say, you. You engaged in that all the time. So they thought, oh, actually, we'll bring her across. Is that.

Why would you say I knew the business. This was a developmental opportunity for me and definitely did not took too long to answer. I think it was a great opportunity. I have always worked with the US And I knew that probably my path was going to be out of Argentina, which is a much smaller market. But you have to take those challenges. You have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone. That role was definitely taking me out of the comfort zone. That's how you progress, that's how you learn and you move. You know, you give your path forward, the big step, the big progression steps. And it's not on me. I mean, if you look at in general those getting out of your comfort zone, you might be successful or not, but the what you have learned during that journey, during that challenge will take you to different places. If you always stay with what you know you do well, but it's your comfort zone, it might not be rewarding in the long term, you might not get those positions. So we need to be challenged. We need to get out of our comfort zone. Yes.

And you've been, you know, you spent 15 or coming on 15 years, 14, 15 years with Repsol because you then made the move, even promoted North American regional treasurer. What was that like? You know, that was the sort of. You'd had some operational roles, but roles getting up to there. But then you're the boss, you know, before this, your current role and stuff. What was that step up like? And what was that, that role and the group and things, and then we'll move on to your current role because you spent what, 15 years in Houston. So you know, you know, you know your business. So talk us through that step up.

That's a great question, Mike, because until I was in Argentina at the end, I was already a senior person or a senior analyst, a super type of manager, but I was an individual contributor. And when I came to the US it was not only everything new, it was a more general role. But now I have a team to manage. And that is extremely difficult. To become a manager and manage people and manage their expectations, their frustration, it is extremely challenging. So that's why I say that getting out of your comfort zone and I didn't have received any course, any training before on the first time becoming a supervisor of people, I think I learned by doing. Of course, I then got into more management courses. But it is challenging, it is extremely rewarding on the other end. So I was able to build trust, to build that bridge with your team where you can rely on others doing things and achieving goals and then of course you become better at doing it. But that is in, I think all of us, in all of our careers, there is a point where if you want to continue doing into a management path, you have to go into managing people. And that's challenging. And that's something that I continue learning and changing the way I relate with my team constantly. So it's an. To me, it's a never ending role. You have your personality, you have your way of managing, but you continue evolving.

Just with that and just that role. Before we come onto your current position, were there any mistakes you made? You don't have to name names. I'm not saying that. But with the things looking back, you think, do you know, I should have done that better? That they obviously then reflected that you improved upon them. But again, if people are listening and they're starting their first supervisory position or something like that, and they're thinking I should have set clearer goals with the team or I should have done this, you know, should have, could have, would have. What were the should have, could have, would have that you should have done at that stage, do you say, and now you know the impact you've learned that much better now you're, you know, a treasurer and things. What things would you say are the things you remember from then?

I think on two. One was up to when I came in the US it was a very particular situation for the company. So I was taking a lot under me on my table. So I was not saying no enough. I should have said no, I cannot handle this or what are the priorities? Help me prioritize. So a little bit is, you know, yes, yes. You say yes all the time and then there is a moment where something is not done correctly or it's late or you know, so I think that we need to learn realistically how. Ask for help, I would say, or.

How to say no politely.

Exactly. I mean, and define, take a step back and say, okay, what do I need? If I Need to do all of these projects at the same time and they are all equally priority and equally important. What do I need? Do I need. What type of resources do I need? Time? Do I need people? Do I need software? I think the answer is we need to say no, but we need to bring also the solution. I can do this, but I will need X, Y and Z. So we are part of the solution and it is not just saying no because. Because no. So that was something that I learned, not saying yes all the time. But if we need to say no, also say what do you need to continue to perform that? That's something that. If I could have done it differently 10 years ago, I think I would have felt better. The second, which I don't know if it is a mistake, but I would have done differently is that we need to take. I should have taken more risks, more informed risk. I was probably very conservative in my, in my approach to develop my career. I could have taken a little bit more risk, change maybe some roles in between, gain a different type of expertise. I knew that treasury and finance is what I like. So if you know what is your goal, your long term goal or the cfo, you know, I could have taken maybe more developmental roles. Say it or say something more commercial. But then coming back to what is.

Your path and so then you made the progression to this role. You know, maybe if you explain the role and also the company because you know, I touched on it a little bit, but have really I thought you're better to explain it. You work there and have done for nearly six years. You know, maybe you can explain to the listeners Elliquid and think about from this.

Certainly liquid is the leader in industrial gases. So what does it mean? It means producing oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen and all the gases that comes after. So up to very particular molecules that are used. Industrial processes of hydrogen for the hydro cracking, for example, or for mobility. For hydrogen mobility, oxygen for the petrochemical industry or the chemical industry or the steel industry. So it's a very integrated group in the sense that we have the production of the gases. Then what it would be a more midstream. So the fractioning so the cylinders and the bulk of the gases up to even some retail consumption. For welding, for example, helium for balloons. So in that sense it's an integrated conglomerate present as you mentioned in the introduction in in 80 countries and then also diversified in almost every industry. The electronic industry, mobile phones, plasma screens, data centers, the medical gases for hospital, oxygen for hospital. Those cylinders that you see in the Hospitals as well as not everywhere in the world, but as well in the home country, the home health care so you know back for breathing therapy or apnea therapy. So it's an extremely, extremely diversified group and it has been a real nice journey. I joined eldkid here in Houston as the regional treasurer. I am also the treasurer for the, for the U.S. but but the change from Repsol was expanding not only geographically because before I was focused in the US and Canada, but expanding geographically. So from Canada to Argentina in 11 countries but also the complexity of the treasurer role for early Kid in particular in the US it is much larger than with Repsol. So it was definitely a progression. I have been careful and it has been something that I have always looked in progressing each time.

And with this, the global nature of your role, we spoke about this because for the show and on the pre podcast you've continued that bond with the business. So being a real partner and things like that and you've got a global team, how do you make that global team partner with the business themselves? How do you sort of push that theme out from yourself, would you say?

And that's a challenge now how you balance being more on a more global team or being, you know, and really maintaining that close bond with the business. I've heard recently somebody saying something I found extremely interesting and it is very applicable to Treasury. You want to be deep in treasury but not narrow to Treasury. You don't want to be perceived, just that you only do Treasury. You want to show that you can handle more but that you have a deep understanding of what treasury is. The way that I find that I tried really to mentor my team is finding those projects that are critical or are in the agenda of the business and be part of those projects, treasure projects. So I have now at this point conversation with our business leaders to try to understand what are their priorities for next year, to understand how treasury can help on those and how can we from that agenda define the agenda for Treasury. And there are restrictions and there are limits. But at least to have that first conversation I think it is very important and from there my team to be really part of a project where they can learn the business as well. We have to say that in my regional role that it's nice when you are in the different countries because by nature you are closer to the business. When you are at the headquarters, you are a little bit more detached from being very close to the business. So it's a trade off, it's more strategic, but it's a little Bit farther away from the business. But I think that to maintain that tide it's very important and we looked.

At, we spoke about this, that you've really got that sort of treasury running through you and everything else. And again, I don't want to repeat the thing, but how do you work with the businesses to make treasury that partner? Because again for the listeners tomorrow, and I spoke before and you've got this really good balance of being an effective partner to the business but also being the treasury subject expert, how do you make that work? What are the secrets?

So for example, we make all our counterparty risk assessments. So in our company and in our industries, similar to the upstream industry, the oil and gas upstream industry, our business cycle is long and we invest upfront and then we have in general long term contract. So the counterparty risk is quite critical and our customers look to early kit because of our credit strength and our balance sheet. However, we really need to understand what our customers are and what is the guidance. So in that conversation that we have with the business when we are assessing different project, I think that is the real balance between how do we take enough risks because in general our commercial team, they are very optimistic and how do we secure or we cover counterparty risk. So that is a conversation that we have all the time and we need to understand how much one risk outpace the benefit of getting too early or not asking collateral. So all the collateral conversations, all the counterparty risk conversation with our business is a great opportunity for treasury to now the business actually. So these are, you know, it's a constant conversation and we shouldn't be looking to a big project to say, well now I will be working in a business project and I will know the business. I think it's a matter of keeping maintaining the conversation all the time and with different businesses, with different leaders from the business and try to ask questions, you know, and try to understand how it works and then what are the drivers and what are the risks? Is it an interest risk, is FX risk, is a construction risk. So I think that is where treasury really is extremely well positioned to be a partner because it's not. We can cover all type of risk to help the business. It's not necessarily a reporting issue, but it is really business risks that we need to work together.

Okay, and focusing or turning the spotlight. We've looked at the business and the partnering and things like that, but then it's treasury partnering. So the treasury people that you've got and the treasury team that you've recruited and structured what are you looking for as the company grows? What are the sort of the people aspects are you looking for? I spoke to a couple of treasurers the other day and one of the things they were saying was there was kind of an openness of mind that they were really looking for that people were open to new ideas and things like that. Or what are the key things when you're doing an interview, you know that what will turn you off and say, no, actually that person is not right for us. Or the flip side, yeah, that person gets it that they'd be an asset to your treasury team. What are the things that you're always looking for?

Great question. I always look there is a core technical expertise that I always look to more and more. The soft skills and yes the opponents, the flexibility, the be able to connect the dots, be able to have conversations with different people, to learn from different people and to apply technical expertise to that conversation, to be able to make a synthesis of what they've learned. I think that it is very important to be able to work as a team. It's extremely important. And I think that more and more, some knowledge, IT knowledge, more system knowledge, more for Treasury. I think the, the more we are going to evolve to be able to incorporate technology, but not only that, but to be able to explain technology, to be able to assess if AI is good or not or what are the risks, to be able to understand more and more the system IT side of our integration with banks, our files exchange, the encryption matters. I think more and more that will be an important feature to look into individuals, but definitely to be able to be a team player, to be able to connect the dot, to go beyond what IT is just required. That's where I look.

And how do you assess that? What I mean by that is you're meeting someone for an interview and you're trying to, you're reading through resume, you're doing the interview, are you using other testing or what are the things that, that sort of stand out. And again, this is for the listeners today when they're, you know, I talked to, I did a really good webinar with Ernie Humphrey recently and he hates resumes. And we were talking about it and I said, look, I think they are a good positive thing used in the right way because you get hooks in there. You get, you know, it helps introduce parts of a conversation where you can explore these areas. But how do you find out from a piece of paper then move it into the real person to actually say, do you know what? I want someone that's got, as you say, an agility of mind and things like that. How do you discover that if you like or team player things.

I think the resumes are important, are very important because this is how people present themselves and probably, you know, two individuals that have participated in the same project, they will maybe one will not even put it and the other. Yes. So the way that they present that they highlight or they stress what is important to them to the reader of the resume. I try to look at that, I try to look to resumes where people not just describe things that they've done, but they can show the benefit of what they have done. So and that is not that common. I don't see necessarily people saying, okay, you know, yes, I participate or my participation in this, in this project produce shortening on time reporting or savings or you know, and how much it cost to implement or we did it on time. So really to be quite concrete and to show results, shows a person that it is a result oriented person. And it's interesting because I have been interviewing all these weeks and there is people that it's. Even when you have the conversation with them, they don't know what result. It's difficult to explain to me the results that they achieved by doing it. So that's something that I, in general, I don't like too much now more general soft. How do you see an agile of a mind? Well, that I think comes with a conversation. There is people that are very, very focused and there are people that are more broad and then they can have a different type of conversation. So. And you don't have to be senior to be able to show, you know, that you can connect the DOT from different disciplines.

I think that's brilliant. I think actually you phrased it probably better than I did. I mean I was saying to Ernie and the listeners that one, I was saying that it's about achievements, show what you've actually achieved. And I think, actually, I think it's an unnatural skill for a lot of treasurers, a lot of treasury professionals rather that actually, you know, you, you do your work and everything else, but do you actually quantify, you might quantify the project itself and you might quantify what it's done for the company, but do you actually quantify your contribution to it and what, you know, I did this, I worked 50% of this, we made a $2 million saving. So actually you could put a million dollars that, that towards me. You know, I, I did that, you know, that was my achievement. And actually for the people listening Today, put that on your resume, put down what you've achieved, what you've done because otherwise you're never going to stand out. You're just going to be another treasury professional that tomorrow is potentially interviewing or actually you, you probably, maybe there might be people out there you've rejected from or not even interviewed because they've not really highlighted that.

I'm thinking as well, totally, totally agree. I mean think if you have proposed a process improvement and what would the result be? Is it savings, is it errors saved or reduced? Have you worked on a credit policy that is reducing bad debt provisions or reducing dso? If you're working on working capital? So I think everything can be measure somehow. I mean you have to be not necessarily creative but you have to do the homework of trying to understand why because that brings us why I am doing what I'm doing it. What makes you think, okay, if I'm producing results, well, what I'm doing makes sense and definitely it has to be shown on the resumes and the more senior, the more you need to show.

What were your results, demonstrate what you've done and contribution. Now we're gonna, we're not, we're not quite a wrap up yet. We're gonna wrap up the show shortly. We'll come back to put on your LinkedIn profile. Before we do that and before I get to that in your top tips and things, I know that you, you know, you've got a passion for mentoring others and things like that. And on some shows I've talked about people being. One of my first shows or early shows with Karen Vanderdriche, she talked about the benefits of being a mentee and you know, some of the safe environment and, and somewhere to try out your crazy ideas and you know, there were lots of great benefits, great show, really enjoyed it. But when you're actually, you know, you, you've got this passion for helping others and mentoring them. Why is that important to you and what benefit does that give you as a, you know, you're giving up your time, you know, you've got a busy life. Why do you enjoy doing that? What, what's the, what's the key thing that you think other treasurers should think about doing it as well?

So definitely I think the mentor, mentee role, it's important, it's important for the mentor to be mentor for senior persons to be mentors for women to mentor others. Women are not women's, but for the mentor besides, I mean the pleasure to help develop others, it's also an opportunity to Know the business, to know other people's and also to be known. So I think it is. I've done mentoring within my company and I learned a lot in terms of issues or processes of frustration throughout the company. So I think that helps a lot beyond going to the pure mentoring relationship. So I think that's important. I mean to progress in a company, yes, you need a mentor, you need to do your homework and you need sponsors, which is different. No, mentor and sponsors are totally different roles. But the mentoring, it's a great experience. I continue doing mentoring with other executives and the conversation is so important first to know that happens to other. To see the point of view of other people for the same problem or the same issue and that I think it is very, very nice to realize how many different points of view you can get for a communication problem, for example, or for a change management issue. And it definitely helps the mentor to be a better mentor, but really to be a better executive, a better professional.

Yeah, you grow as a professional ideal. It's a great answer to that. We hadn't actually rehearsed that one because it was really good. But it was just something I really noticed that you do a lot of and things. But so we are coming towards the end, as I say we keep our shows each week to about half an hour, 40 minutes because it used to be people's typical commute time. Obviously people don't commute anymore, so it's lots of working from home. But hopefully people are still listening. So what would you say as well? We're putting your, your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so people can connect to you. You can ignore them if they're not in treasury, that's fine. But what are the tips that you would give maybe to junior mid level staff or senior staff or what are the things when you reflected before the program maybe and you thought do you know what? This is the key to my success or what are the things that you would say to the people out there listening today that they should be thinking about?

Well, I think, I mean coming back, don't get afraid to be exposed. Actually push your bosses to be exposed. I mean good bosses expose their teams to their bosses. So that's important. Be prepared, be prepared because it is also, you know, it's a two way journey. So that, but, but I think that's critical. Secondly, get out of your comfort zone. Try to participate in projects that not necessarily, you know the answer. That might imply a little bit more work or time investment. But I think try to get out of your comfort zone and then try to, as much as possible, know the business agenda and the business priorities so you are actually present and relevant to the business people. Because that is how the. I mean, the company grows. So we need to be relevant to the business agenda.

Amazing. So I'm scribbling notes here, so for our show notes as well. So, as you say, get involved whilst getting out of your comfort zone, but at the same time, deep dive into your business that you work for, because that's the way to get ahead with it. So brilliant advice, Tamara. Thank you.

Greatly put.

Well, thank you for this. This week. As I say, we'll put your details in the show notes, people. Tamara's an amazing lady. She's on the board of the afp, as I say, one of Houston's most influential women in the past and things like that one, you know, and in the future. But no. So do connect if you think it'd be great to have her in your network and vice versa. Thank you very much for being on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you, Mike. My pleasure. And definitely reach out to me. I really love to keep the conversations going.

Superb. Thanks for your time.

Thank you.