Why You Need a Variety of Skills and Experience in Treasury with Sean O'Connor

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show delights delighted to be joined by Sean O' Connor, the global treasury director at Indeed.com based over in Dublin, launched in 2004. Most of you will know. Indeed. We certainly do. As a recruitment company, we're very happy customers. No, I don't want to discount. It's all right, maybe later, I'm not sure but Indeed is an American worldwide employment website for job listings. Subsidiary of Recruit holdings, headquartered in Texas and Connecticut with offices throughout the world. Over 250 visitors, million visitors every month from over 60 different countries literally puts the world to work. And we know about that. I know it's a little bit of a picture indeed, but to be honest, it's a great site and we use it and very successfully and continue. But enough of that stuff. Let's talk about Sean and his journey in within Treasury. We've had a pre podcast chat the other day and it was brilliant. I know Sean's a great chat so, you know, so we're going to get some decent stuff from him. But we're going to go right back to the beginning of Sean's career, how he discovered the world, firstly of finance and then the wonderful world of Treasury. So Sean, over to you, sir.

Hi Mike, thanks for having me. It's actually today is my fifth anniversary. I was reminded today at Indeed. So the timeline is very good. Looking back on my career, I suppose, and how I fell into the world of Treasury. I go right back to I suppose what I studied in university. I did a business accountancy degree here in Dublin and I suppose I came out of it. And like most people when you're young, you probably want to still have your experiences. So I worked in financial services for a year with a plan to go traveling. So coming back from traveling, it was 2007, 2008 and as we all know, it was a tricky time in the, in the global world. Horrible.

Horrendous.

Exactly, exactly. And I kind of needed to get myself to work so I could start repaying the debts I had accumulated over the previous year. I found myself landing into a role of one of the local banks here in Ireland with Bank of Ireland within Treasury. I had a friend walking there that had referred me on and it was actually a back Office role. So I ended up spending a year there and to be honest, I learned I suppose a lot about how corporate treasury works from a banking perspective and it kind of opened my eyes to I suppose a career path that really intrigued me. Having spent a year there I decided it was time to kind of move on to kind of get more experience than just the back office. I moved on to some a private banking role with LGT bank from Lichtenstein and there I was pretty much a one man treasury team for the Dublin branch they had there. So I was front, middle, back office and everything in between. I spent a number of years there managing the loan book and like I said, kind of just expanding my experience. And at the same time I did some professional exams, I did my ACCA exams there and then it kind of got to that kind of plateau stage with being a one man treasury team. There's only so much stuff. Exactly. There's a bit of a glass ceiling.

There and Sean just on that for. Again we said before the show that there are junior guys listening, they started early stages of their career and you say that was a good all. It's an all round role you throw niche. But did you really know treasury there? You sort of said you'd had an understanding of it or how did you discover the world of treasure was obviously wasn't through your degree or was it? Or how did you go? Oh, that's what treasury is about I suppose.

Look, you're exposed to it as part of your studies but yeah, I suppose not many people grow up or go to university saying I want to be a treasurer when I come out. Most of us aren't probably fully aware how corporate structures are set up and you know, everyone knows about accountancy from an early age and you've got the economics and finance side but I suppose I just kind of fell into it like a lot of people do. It was forced out of necessity which ended up leading to a career that I've loved ever since and was really following that path and following my instinct at the time.

As you say, you sort of, you did the, you know, and I always joke that people do a banking move and then discover the world of treasury but you did a couple of banking roles so talk us through this. As you say you touched on the sort of treasury accounting role for the Lichtenstein bank but then you move to, you know, again continue the banking before more corporate treasury moves. So give us, give us the insight there.

Well, as I touched on earlier, that was probably around 2011, 2012. So it was still like from an economy perspective things were very tight, especially here in Dublin. We'd gone through I suppose a housing crash. There was a lot of people I suppose unemployed. There wasn't a lot of liquidity in the market. And at the time I really wanted to move into corporate treasury from that role. But there wasn't a lot of opportunity at the time and in the end I decided I needed to move on and I moved into, back into one of the Irish banks, this time with Allied Irish bank into more of a commercial banking role. So really this was looking at distressed loan books and looking at restructures. To be honest it was a morbid element to the role because you were dealing with people that have probably lost their business due to over investment. But I suppose you learn a lot of empathy and you learn a lot of I suppose people skills in a position like that when you're dealing with people that really are invested in everything that you're discussing. So having spent a couple of years there, Roll came up with Xerox to get me into the corporate treasury world. And luckily enough I was able to get that job and work with a great treasury team out in Xerox here in Dub Dublin where they have their in house bank housed and they've got maybe like a large. From my perspective it was probably the largest corporate treasury team I've ever walked in because essentially their whole affects and cash management is managed out of Dublin for all of their global subsidiaries. So again it was more probably a kind of back to middle office role with some elements of front office on the investment side. But again I think these experiences are great because what they give you is a full understanding of how treasury works at its core. We touched on this when we chatted last time. I think it's important if you want to have a real successful career in treasury and really add value in your roles, you have to have experience. The back office, the middle office, the front office and then it gives you that more holistic view on what needs to be done. Because how can you be expected as a Treasury leader to make decisions around the back office and the middle office and the front office if you've only ever walked in one. You need to have that kind of bird's eye view on things to make the right decisions, to make value added decisions and also know the right people to bring into your team as well. So I'd totally recommend it to everyone to gain experience to work in different industries if possible like that. And see what I mean as in on the Industry side is more different types of companies staying within the treasury world, but working in companies that are tech or FMSCG or old school PLCs. Everything, whatever you can get involved in, I think it's ultimately going to add more skills to your base and add more understanding on. Well, look, just because it was done this way here, I've learned that that's not the best way to do it, that we can actually restructure or change how a process is done.

So Sean, just there we talked about Xerox and you then Aer Lingus and indeed I want to go through those roles because again, you know, a number of times I've recruited into the, you know, into Ireland, Dublin in particular and, and things like that. A real center for treasury excellence. I know a lot of it's been driven by, you know, sometimes tax breaks and things like that, but treasury over there is massive and stuff. So talk us through maybe Xerox and Alingus. What is what, you know, those moves for yourself if you like and what you were gaining in terms experience.

As I touched on earlier, I moved to a really great treasury team in Xerox and I suppose it was the scope of the role there and the number of different subsidiaries that we were responsible for. But then also I suppose the people that you were able to learn off that had been there a long time had seen it all, so knew how to troubleshoot. So learning those troubleshooting processes, you know, how to find workarounds and shortcuts and such. So learning those skills was oft, I suppose my colleagues at the time was really, they're the sort of experiences that stand for you, you know, like that in the long run. And ultimately when I, when I joined Xerox, unfortunately at the time it was only a 12 month contract which was extended. But around the same time I was due to get married and an opportunity came up at Aer Lingus, a permanent role. And everyone in Ireland knows Aer Lingus. You know, they're a household brand from that perspective being having been the national airline for a very, very long time and aviation was, it was an industry from a Treasury standpoint. I think if you can experience, get out there and experience because it's such a diverse landscape from a Treasury perspective.

So I know I have my impression of Xerox, but Xerox is an industry. What were you focusing on versus people know, airlines, you know, you see, look up, you see a plane. How did it differ in terms of industry? What was Xerox and their drivers versus suddenly you're in aviation, I suppose with.

Xerox, it was a global business, like a huge multinational. They had just gone through a large acquisition of another company at the time named acs, which was of equal size and scale. So they essentially doubled their number of entities and their exposures once they closed the acquisition. So the time I spent there was a lot of it looking at how do we integrate this acquisition into the current structure, especially from a Treasury standpoint. So when you're looking at a business like Xerox, which really has that full span of it's got hardware, it's got the paper side we've got, and then you've got the whole services side, and that's where the acquisition was focused. You're looking at, I suppose, offsetting exposures in certain regions. They had big partnerships at the time with other large companies like Fuji and such. So it was really looking at foreign exposures, cash management. And like I said, it was my first real experience running through a global netting cycle. And when you seen the number of entities that were involved from an intercompany perspective, it would blow your mind if you thought about it too much. But at the end of the day, the guys had installed a process that was both effective and efficient so they could manage those individual entity exposures, the levels of activity.

And I speak to a lot of the guys at various. The EasyJet, the Heathrows, the different, you know, the Virgins and things like Atlantic. You know, the complexity of the treasury work and the challenges are brilliant. You know, really help you as a Treasury professional. What was your role like that?

Yeah, look, I loved my time at AER Lingus. Like I touched on it was that kind of almost full treasury exposure experience. As in we had everything from our FX exposures because at the end of the day, we were an Irish entity and everything in aviation is US dollars. We had the commodity side of things from a fuel hedging perspective. We had structured debt from the aviation leasing and financing side. So really, for me, it was just adding more strings to my bow. And again, I look back at the team I walked with and there was a great team there that been a lot of couple of guys had been there a very long time, so they had seen it all. And their lingus had just gone through an acquisition by IAG at the time. So there was that whole PMI from an implementation perspective. So, you know, we start working then with the guys in iag, in ba, in Iberia, in Welling at the time. We used to meet and talk, talk pretty much put out each month, what activity we planned on doing from a hedging perspective on a monthly basis. So you got to network and speak and learn from other treasury teams as well. So, yeah, I have to say I look back very fondly at my time there, and it was as much to do with the people that I learned from as what I was exposed to at the time. From an experience perspective, you went from.

It'S simply a couple of solid Xerox, great global flows to Aer Lingus and then. Indeed. And recruitment. But obviously it's not recruitment, you know, because it is advertising for recruitment and everything else. So it's a sort of that interesting hybrid situation. But, you know, when you walked in, this is preloaded question, guys, because I know this, you walked in, not an established team. It was like, you're their first treasury hire. You walk in, you're like, whoa, okay, I've got some good treasury experience, but where is everyone? Oh, hang on, it's me. You know. So what was that like for you as a, you know, an experienced treasury professional? You know, what. What did you start to do? How did it work?

I suppose the decision to move was a hard one at the time. Moving to the unknown from, you could say security. You know, at that stage at Aer Lingus, I knew everything I needed to know. I performed the role very well. But this opportunity came up to kind of set up a team, and with a US Tech company that I was aware of, but not overly aware of how they operated and what their exposures were, but ultimately I had to get in there and really get under the bonnet. You know, you have to spend those first few months in the weeds. You have to identify, well, what is it that I'm responsible for here? Because unfortunately, you don't have somebody beside you that can kind of, you know, ramp you up with, here's all the treasury information, you know, or here's our tms, if you want. We'll get you access and you can win. Have a look. But it was very much, you're going to have to.

Yeah, you have to go in and explain to say, look, this is what a TMS is. And they're like, what? What's that then?

Well, we. We're only live a couple of years now with a tms, so it even took us a couple of years to get there, Mike. But, you know, at the start was really, well, look, what do we need to do? Well, I said to myself, well, you have to set yourself those small goals and objectives and. And then the longer kind of term targets. And we know in treasury nothing very well, very little happens overnight. Change takes time. And it's also, it takes time because ultimately you need executive buy into anything of materiality you want to change, but ultimately you need to have. I suppose for me, I needed to have the information, I needed to have the understanding and awareness to make a proposal because it's almost like that whole cash flow forecasting cliche of garbage in, garbage out. So you're only as good as the information that you have. So I really spent those four, six months really meeting as many people as I could, gathering as much data as I could, creating spreadsheets at the time, recording information, looking at historical flows, then ultimately carving out a Treasury policy that was adequate for their exposures at the time. But I suppose where the role was then, where the role is now, it's grown as much as I suppose indeed's business has grown at the time, because within a year and a half we had our own in house bank set up.

So, Sean, so many people say, oh, we must have immediate know exactly where our risks are and know exactly where our cash is now. And the only way to do it is to have a TMS now that needs to be implemented now, now, now. And you know, throughout pandemic, actually, you know, I was asked recently to do another session and someone said, oh, let's talk about, you know, the development of treasury management systems throughout pandemic. I went, no. Why? I said, well, because it hasn't happened. You know, it's like people, a lot of people put things on hold and you, you talked about earlier that you were then bringing in a Treasury management system. It was new. Why did you think that that was, you know, important? You know, is it, is it just because everyone says you have to have one? There you go, being a little bit provocative. But because everyone said you have to have one, yeah, well, we'll have to get one. What was it for you? The driver, if you like?

I could have taken that approach. Well, I always had one in my previous roles, so can I have one here, please? But it wasn't necessarily that approach. It was really comes down to timing on what we're actually looking to use the treasury management system for. At the time, we thought the timing was right because we had launched our in House bank so suddenly the diversity of the flows were going to change. We had a lot of intercompany lending start to go live. We had, I suppose, a rationalization of our global account structure. So we needed somewhere to record all this information because Prior to that was on spreadsheets. And look, spreadsheets are good up to a certain time, but because of the manual nature of them, they're not resilient. Yeah, exactly. And they leave themselves. They're not scalable and they leave themselves exposed from a controls perspective. So we needed a, a system that essentially at the start we just wanted a repository, you know, where we could record this data. So again, we were armed with information that we could make decisions if we needed to do so quickly and, you know, informed.

You brought that in. But at the same time, and let's focus a bit more on the people aspects, you had to then bring in a team. Was it just, you know, you needed someone else to share a coffee with? You know, what was it? What did you need to. Then did you map out your sort of your org chart and go, well, I want them. Them then? Or, you know, how did you drive it? Again, I've got listeners that sometimes listen to the show and they're in a similar situation. Where did you start with, you know, what was it actually? I need a Treasury account or how did you map out what you needed from there?

Yeah, well, look, I was fortunate enough at the start, even though I was the first treasury hired, was a colleague who's still on my team now at the time, who had had been with indeed for maybe a year as a finance admin. So somebody, a grad at the time, and she joined me on the treasury side because at the time she was responsible for maintaining kind of the bank accounts and that sort of stuff. So she had some exposure. So I was fortunate enough that, that she joined me at the start and was able, I suppose, to get me information that I needed at times, but then also work with me and you know, and obviously grow and develop herself alongside the role after a bit of time it was clear with the launch of the In House bank that we're going to need to bring somebody in that had some experience. So that's the kind of role we pitched out, a kind of senior analyst role at the time to bring somebody in that could add, I suppose, alleviate some of the pressure on myself and my colleague at the time, but then also come in with some new ideas as well. Look, I think it's really important when hiring people, a lot of us get caught up in just looking at a CV and not looking at the potential and I think it's really important when you bring people in that a, they fit from a culture perspective and they're going to be a great member of the team. Will be that they have the ability to grow and develop further, but also to challenge and ask questions. I operate a very kind of flat structure. I like my teams to challenge me with ideas. And look, we may not always agree and go forward with those ideas, but I don't want them ever to be deterred to come back to me with more ideas because it's only true that type of conversation and those type of challenges that we actually refine and find out what it is we actually need. So I think it's important to kind of go back there when you're hiring people to not just get caught up what's on the black and white on the paper in front of you and really look at the person and look at what they're, I suppose, how high their ceiling is and their ability to grow. And I think. And it's something we may touch on later, but I think that's why we're seeing, I suppose, the diversification of experience in treasury kind of changing. And it's changing with the times, it's changing with what the responsibilities now look like. But. But that's something approach I've kind of taken from the start when bringing in new people into the team.

We'll talk about that now. You know, I think that's you. You segued nicely. You can do this podcast by yourself. Sean said to me before, oh my, you know, interrupt me. I'm just loving this. I love to ask a guest a question. And then I said, shut up and let's listen to the treasurer talk. Because it's not about Mike talks and the treasurer listens to a load of it. It's actually your treasury career and I'm fascinated by it. So that's why I shut up. So to talk us about that, you know, how did it. What's your driver, what's your ethos sort of thing. And you know, because that then neatly, you know, segues it awesome into in the future, you know, how do you see it growing now as we've, you know, recovered from, you know, the events, the past couple of years, pandemics and all that stuff. You and I have been through a couple of recessions and three for me, two for yourself. I'd say, you know, you got a couple of years younger, but where are you seeing it going now?

Yeah, well, look, I think if we rewind back a few years ago, I think a lot of focus was on how technology was going to change the landscape. And look, that has been the case. Roles and responsibilities have become automated stuff like we. That we shouldn't nowadays see a Treasury analyst or senior analysts or a team of analysts spending the morning cutting cash positions so they can spend their afternoon then making investment or effects decisions. You know, to that's. Those type of processes should be automated now and that's rather true. Efficient bankruptcy or by having the treasury management systems or cash flow forecasting systems in place for recording all of these. But I do think what's required to be successful in treasury is kind of changing. I think ultimately you have to have an analytical side to your personality. You have to cliche be good with numbers. But I do think it's evolving more. I think we're seeing more people moving into treasury that are coming from maybe more kind of technical backgrounds as well. I think roles in data scientists and business intelligence, having those skill bases really help drive models and ultimately models influence how we make decisions. So I do think there's plenty of room within treasury teams for people coming from those more kind of, I wouldn't say it, but those more kind of technical backgrounds. But ultimately I think such a large portion of treasury is relationship management and people management and being able to collaborate. It's one of the most important aspects of my role right now is being able to collaborate because as a treasurer you have an influence or you have an interest in so many areas of the business, be it from across the whole finance org and your colleagues in tax, in accounting, in procurement, in AP and ar. Obviously we, we're vested in those areas, but then we look sideways. We do a lot of work with our product guys around the whole receivable side because we manage our merchant services and alternative payment methods relationships, you look across how important working with legal, working with your corporate development teams. So when you have that many stakeholders and ultimately treasury has evolved now into more of a service model, I believe. So you have to look at who are your internal customers and how do you serve them best and being able to I suppose manage and meet expectations. So I think collaboration and relationship management are such a cornerstone of effective kind of Treasury.

Can we just talk there, Sean? I mean I, I talked about it earlier in the show that indeed is a job board, you know, is, you know, where you put jobs and everything else. What I just wanted to touch on there, you know, give it big thumbs up. I've hard stuff to, you know, using the indeed platform and things like that. But you and I talked about this before that you sort of, you're separate to the business in a positive way, you know, so you're not influencing those decisions, but you're then being that support and actually leadership function for them. What's he indeed like as a business for you, as a treasurer, you know, what are the challenges? Is it the global nature of it, that sort of 247 or what are the key things for you as a treasurer sitting there? I didn't, you know, didn't think it was going to be like this or, you know, in a good way being.

Entirely candid, like I does. Not many if any complaints I have over the last five years, but indeed from a business perspective. But the challenges usually are, I suppose, how quickly things are expected to be turned around. I've always described indeed, since I joined as a sprinter whose body and legs are not attached. The legs are. Its revenue is technology and it's growth, while the body is the systems, the infrastructure. And if we want to say, call finance more of an, of an operational side of the house, you know, how we actually keep the lights on and make sure that the tax man's paid and all our bills are paid and all the revenues collected and all of those type of things. So unfortunately, the legs have been always ahead of the body and is trying to keep up and keep pace. You know, we're quite, I suppose, I wouldn't say aggressive, but like, you know, we have continued growth plans and we move into new markets and it's been able then to, from a Treasury standpoint, to meet the expectations of the stakeholder groups that are running the projects for new entities. Especially when you move into more challenging entities from, say, a banking and documentation standpoint, where you've got to go and get stuff up and you need this form signed and that form signed, and obviously you've got to mediate between the project team and the bank and trying to manage the project team's expectations and ultimately they only have you as a team to give their feedback to. So I was trying to manage those relationships, I think are generally the more challenging because they're ultimately your colleagues and you want them, you want to meet their expectations. But sometimes because you're dealing in external markets and you're dealing with external partners, the partners don't meet the expectations. So unfortunately, you have to be the purveyor of bad news, you know, when certain timelines aren't met. So I would say that the systems, which was an issue at the start, but the body has caught up with the legs over these last two years with the launch of a new ERP and as well as our tms, so we've definitely shortened that gap, but the legs aren't stopping. So we've got to, we've got to keep pace.

It sounds like an interesting one about standardization and things like that. You know, with again, you know, I read through and we, you and I talked about this, the sort of how you roll out into a new country. And again, someone, you know, before we, you know, we are going to get to the end of the show soon as things. But before we get there, I've been asked by previous couple of previous guests to sort of be great. You could write a bit of a handbook from a lot of these, you know, treasurers like yourself about how you go into a new country or a new entity or a new setup. You've come in, you've set up your new treasury team. We've talked about that. But then when you're helping the company, you know, someone knocks at your door and says, right, Sean, we're going into XYZ jurisdiction or come country or whatever else are you then the big gatekeeper? But you're saying, right, here's your playbook, do this please or how are you and what, what are you asking those entities to do?

Yeah, well, I think, look, it's not the most glamorous side of the job, but documentation and you know, having playbooks, having process docs are so important and integral for that because they do help manage expectations. Another area we've kind of moved into recently is looking at a kind of a service catalog that is like an SLA agreement with our stakeholders so we can try manage their expectations, give them timelines that we don't want to over promise and under deliver like that. So we've got to look at, well, what's feasible and functional. But I do think it's important to have these playbooks and checklists when moving into these areas so people have an understanding of what you need to do as a team to get, be it the bank account set up or you know, I always love this one, depending on the country. It's do you incorporate the entity first or do you open the bank account force and then you've got to speak to legal to find out. Exactly. Or speak to your banking partners and you know, you can end up in a bit of around about at times and ultimately, you know, spending time that you would rather be spending getting documentation done and getting over the line. But it's the fundamentals on the banking side that tend to cause the most frustrations. I think for, for most treasurers it's what you expect to be standard and standardized or even digital. Now in this day and age and that tend to cause the bigger headaches as opposed to bigger, more glamorous stuff like managing our exposures or even implementing a tms. It usually comes down to the basics, where we see or we have the most pain points.

We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so that people can actually connect with you if it's right to have them in the network. And I know that you're doing a number of different conferences like we do as well, so you've got sessions coming up and things. People don't want to connect with you that way as well. But as you reflect on all of it. And again, Sean, you and I talked about this before the show. We get a sort of variety of listeners. So we have the guys, you know, first starting, like yourself, a number of years ago, into Treasury. So maybe a tip for them. The tips for the guys is, you know, again, when I've met some of the listeners at various conferences said, oh, my. Yeah, we listened to it to find out how to get my boss's job and what other people have done, you know, rather than just listening to my boss and then, you know, the war story. So what are the closing, you know, the closing remarks or top tips for you that you would give to some of the people listening today?

Yeah, yeah. Look, from a top tips perspective, what I would advise. I did some work over a year ago with a leadership coach, and I'd never done anything like that at the time, and I was not skeptical, but I would be a little bit of some of that stuff. But to be honest, it was one of the best things I did because what it helped was to give you focus and I think, and hold yourself accountable. So what I did at the time was set myself a couple of goals over the preceding 12 months, you know, and a roadmap and mini goals on how to actually achieve those goals. So I do think by actually writing stuff down and planning it out, you're more likely to achieve your goals. I can fortunately say that I achieved both of the goals that I intended to do within the timeline I intended to do them, but it was by following that approach. Because I do think when you write stuff down, you are more inclined to hold yourself accountable, to actually achieve those. So that would be one tip I would give people to actually think about what you actually want and what your goals are and what's, I suppose, realistic as well. It's all good to aim high, but we have to. To be realistically high as well. The second point, and it was an Area I touched on earlier, I would say is, is to gain experience. I think some people know that there may be in a role within an organization that maybe they've plateaued and like dependent some corporate treasury teams are pretty large. So just the sideway moves for summer and most are only getting smaller. So you've got to look well what's going to be best for me. And it's not always that the grass is always greener on the other side, but it's going to potentially arm you with more experience, more knowledge and more understanding of what you're going to do. I more say because I think some people maybe hang on too long somewhere and knowing that maybe the opportunity is going to be there and it may make them a bit stagnant. So go and experience other roles and sometimes it might not be right. But as you know Mike, the Treasury market is quite liquid and there's plenty of opportunities there in a lot of great businesses and a lot of great treasury teams and in some instances like my own, moving into a Treasury team where there is no treasury team and you've got to, you've kind of got to put the foundations in place and those experiences, you know, stand for you going forward. So I would encourage people, they would be. My two tips really is figure out what it is you want, you know, and set yourself goals. Let them be high, but let them be realistic and set yourselves to maybe three goals and then break them down. And the second point would be is, is don't be afraid of new experiences.

Really Sean, I knew it'd be like this. You know, we had a pre podcast call that went on for ages and we eventually had to finish because just great. And I can't wait to see you as we've said before in real life, in, in flesh and blood and everything else. And long may it continue, sir. You know, and you know, good luck with the rest of it and can't wait for to see you soon, sir.

Great. I appreciate it Mike, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Thanks brother. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe depending on where you listen. Whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.