Why Your Ability to Learn Is Your Most Valuable Treasury Skill with Edwin Koopmans

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show. Delighted. We're joined by Edwin Koopmans, the head of treasury at Zalando. Now Founded in 2008 in Berlin, Zalando is one of Europe's leading online fashion platforms, connecting customers, brands, partners you'll see everywhere on the Internet and everything else. Headquartered in Berlin, but also offices across Europe, Dublin and Helsinki. Platform approach, lots of different fashion and style products and 23 different countries. So very international flavor for it as well. But Edwin himself, he's got this amazing career starting in banking which we always come back to, then through treasury up to now and stuff. So as I say each and every week I'm going to shut up and let Edwin do the talking. So take us back if you would, sir, and how you first discovered, well, let's do finance and then you discovered Treasury. So back to you, sir.

Great. Hi Mike, thank you very much for having you having me on your show. Thank you. Yes, I started off my career in banking a long time ago. Started off with as a relationship manager at ABN Amro bank in Amsterdam and I did that for a few years, learned the ins and outs of the key aspects of banking. Then I moved to IMG Bank IMG Barings at the time and I moved to their dealing room. I was initially responsible for foreign exchange transactions with large corporate clients and then later that also included interest rate type of products. So just the direct transactions, you know, the spots and the forwards, but then also more the derivative instruments and looking at or helping clients with longer term strategies. And how can you optimize, you know, your, the mitigation of your exposure both from an interest rate and a FX perspective. And I really love doing that. It's very exciting and dynamic work environment. And I did that for four years.

And then, sorry, I'm going to jump in and ask because I sometimes don't ask perhaps early enough in the show and some people again listening will be in a similar situation, maybe sitting within a bank and then thinking, oh, maybe this treasury world I've heard about on this podcast sort of thing. Why did, why were you in banking finance? Was that just a passion of yours from, you know, growing up? You just knew, oh, actually let's give this a go or what was your Sort of driver at that stage. I know it was early days and a few years ago now, well, I.

Actually before I went into banking I majored in hospitality management and I worked in hotel business for a couple of years in London and then we moved back to the Netherlands and ABN Ambro was looking for people with a hotel management background. And what they were really focused on was the service aspect of people that are in the hotel industry, obviously with a certain type of educational background and financial knowledge, but changing their client service model by being more service oriented and they felt that hotel people were the ones that could significantly help. So they went out to the different schools in the Netherlands for hotel management and they developed this program. And I started working while I just looked into that program and I thought it was interesting and one thing led.

To another and that's also within treasury because you and I have talked about this as well, that it's very people centric. We were just talking before the show about, you know, I'd had another conversation with a client. You know, with tax, it's very, you know, rule driven and you know, taxes like this. But with treasury you start with an idea and then all these different directions. But obviously that gave you the people aspect and as you said, you sort of then went to ing. Then how come treasury came about? How did you make that transition?

One of my clients was Fair Lee at the time and I had a very good relationship with them and they were looking for someone to manage their foreign exchange platform and their foreign exchange exposure globally. And I loved what I was doing at ing. I thought it was a very exciting environment and very, you know, if something happens in the world, you'll see it on one of your screens right away and you know, you feel that you're middle of the financing, financing world. But the one thing that I was missing is I saw my clients quite often, sat down with them, talked about what their challenges were and see how we could help by providing a product type of solution. But I was missing the bigger picture and there's so much more going on rather than either the tail end or just part of what needed to be solved for. And so when Sara Lee was looking for that specific function or that role to fill, I was interested and I talked to them and I thought this is, this is something that I, you know, I can, I can definitely do and I want to do. And so that's, that's how I got involved in, in more the corporate treasury side of things. So I switched to Sara Lee at the time.

Again, I Know the, you know, the global and stuff. But there are still some people out there might not know. Sara Lee, what does Sara Lee do? And you know what was then the sort of impact on that on Treasury.

So I think unfortunately the company doesn't exist anymore. When I joined it was company with a market cap of about 25 revenue, annual revenue of about US$30 billion, that is. And they had several different, different areas. In Europe the main focus was on. On. On beverages, on coffee and tea. So our experts but for a lot of Dutch people and some other countries in Europe, they'll know this. But also shampoos and other household and body care products. That was what the main focus was In Europe. Australia they were very much focused on bakery type of products. And in the US there was also bakery and meats, but also retail beans brands for example. And at some point in time Coach used to be part of fairly so a very large company that had a lot of different areas of retail and food type of products. When I joined that already started to streamline some of this. Coach for example wasn't part of the company anymore. Haynes brand was just one off and so they wanted to have a more core direction in some of those things. And Sara Lee originally is the name of, of the daughter of a baker that started the company a long time ago. So they started with bread and then it's with other bakery type of products, spice, etc. A lot of people in the US will know the company for that brand. But also hot dogs, ballpark hot dogs and other types of meats are, were part of the company. Unfortunately they started streamlining the company more and more and then at some point they spun off other areas. They sold household and body care division to Unilever and Proctor Campbell and then the company spun off the European and the US division that now. And in the end both of them were taken over by other companies.

Yeah, it just sort of, sort of went different ways. I think that split up.

Yes.

But again you made an international move at the time because you've been based in the Netherlands and then made the move to one of my favorite cities in the world, Chicago. What was that like for you?

Phenomenal. One of the things that attracted me with fairly is there was that global international footprint in Utrecht. I was responsible for foreign exchange, but also helped with the implementation of a lot of different cash pools across Europe, which was very interesting. But then at some point the treasury in the US asked me if I wanted to join the US team. I was really intrigued and I wanted to do that. I'd been an exchange student in the US in my early days and I definitely wanted to go back there for a few years. So initially the plan was to come back for three years. What I was going to do wasn't really all that clear. I was going to be a director in the treasury team. But I trusted what he had in mind and I went there. They made me responsible for the pension plans. And without having any experience in pension plans at the time, it was slightly changed. So Sara Lee has three large, or at the time had three large pension plans, one in the US and one in the UK and one in the Netherlands, all for about one and a half billion in liabilities, obviously supported by assets. And the ones in the UK and the US fell under my responsibility. That gave me the opportunity to start doing that and work on that. It was just a phenomenal experience.

And then you were in the US and you decided to stay, you know, if you like, and sort of develop, which is sometimes unusual, that's the wrong way to put it. But you decided you weren't, you didn't come back to the Netherlands. You Chicago, amazing area for treasurers and that's one of the been 10 years. Speaking of the Windy City Summit, I absolutely love going out there. Not just a city, but great treasury community and everything else. What next moves did you make? Talk us through that again. I know these and people see these on your LinkedIn profile, but without being artificial about it, what then happened fairly.

Was spinning off a lot of different companies and I was involved with the spin off quite a bit because the pension liabilities were large liabilities that we needed to see what was going to happen and you know, for, for potential acquirer. Taking on these liabilities and calculating what the liabilities are was for something that was, that was key and so I helped with that. But then the company became a lot smaller because of all of the spin offs. And my area of responsibility was, you know, very much going to be focused on just the U.S. pension plans. And while that was going on, I was approached by somebody that I used to work with, somebody from AMU at the. And ANU had just started looking at an outsourcing platform for pension plans. So person was running a team where smaller sized companies, but also larger companies, but mostly smaller sized companies, would outsource the pension plans to that team and the team would be managing the assets and the liabilities and really making sure that the pension plans were managed correctly. And he asked me if I wanted to join the team based on my Experience with Sarah Lee and the relationship that we had during that time. And so I joined and I was head of the dedicated pension practice. Also I was head of a team of nine consultants specifically focused on pension plans.

Pensions have become. It's funny, actually, I've talked to a number of treasurers and they've said, oh, Mike, I'd run the pension. It's so fascinating, really enjoy it and everything else, but it sounds really boring. But it's not because of the assets and all the liabilities in there and things like that. Why did that make you. I mean, you and I, again, we've talked about this, about why it's not. It's actually anything but boring. What's so fascinating for you about managing a pension practice and what gets you, as you say, it was great experience. Why?

Well, I think there's so much to it to manage pension liabilities. So the liabilities, you know, they change every day and based on sometimes on drivers that you can predict or that you can mitigate and. But sometimes there are drivers that you cannot do anything about. And then you have your assets that you need to invest in an appropriate way. There's so many different things that you can explore and so many, you can take it to so many different levels. So you can just. If you need to manage the assets, you can do what's what A lot of companies get. I just outsource the pension plan and have somebody else take care of it. But really keeping it in house and developing strategies in order to mitigate the movement of the liabilities and looking at what you can do on the asset side, it's fascinating. You obviously want to diversify your investments, but we also used a lot of optionalities swaptions in order to mitigate some of the interest rate exposure. We used credit default swaps in order to mitigate the credit exposure and that, you know, you can take it to different levels. Right. And if you're looking at it from a client perspective, like what we did at aonuit, some clients just want to have a straight claim, that type of product. Other clients want to go a little bit more advanced and want to introduce derivatives in their hedging structure. So there's all kinds of different things that you can do. For me, it was more like running my own shop, my own business, because this, what I just was indicating the liabilities on the asset side. But yes, regulatory requirements. Right. There's economic drivers that will impact things that are there, that are happening. There's legal aspects that you have to comply with. So there's a lot to it. And that whole picture of managing those plans, I really, really enjoyed doing that.

And so you'd done a couple of years within pensions, and then treasury knocked on the door again. It was like, oh, come back. Come back to us. What happened then? Talk us about Everest.

Yeah, that's actually a funny story because one of the things that I was trying to accomplish as well is to grow the portfolio. Fine portfolio of a. On Newitt. And my old treasurer was working for Avrans, and so the treasurer that brought me to the US and so he knew my knowledge of pension plans and he knew where I was and said, can we talk about what type of services, what we can offer you? And then. And he said, yes, of course. And then. So we talked about it. And then walking out to the elevators, he said to me, you know, I'm leaving this company. Why don't you give me a call? And I was kind of like, thrown off. And then we talked. He said, you know, I really think this is something that you'd be interested in, so why don't. Why don't we sit down and have a conversation? He was also the person that kind of brought me to the US without a specific role, trusted me a lot, gave me a lot of things to do, and really trusted that I could get things over the finish line. That's key. Calls and says, I have an idea and a person that, you know, that is kind of, you know, to me, it was kind of my mentor. I had the conversation and one thing led to another. Talk to the cfo. She started asking me questions. He says, have you ever issued a bond before? And I was like, no, I haven't. Oh, you know, I don't have the, you know, certain type of experience, and I'm not going to be able to do this role. But we got along and we talked about how we would do it and how. What's what, you know, some of the strength and my strengths and weaknesses were. And I think she was very much focused on how thinking and I would be leading certain type of processes rather than just having the specific knowledge that I could carry over and hit the ground running. She introduced me to other people, went through the official interviewing cycle, and I got hired. So I started in 2013 to work for them.

Edwin, let me just ask about that. Just digging in. I know it's a while ago now, but I've got some campaigns I'm recruiting at the moment, and one of the ones, one of my clients is quite distinctly focus on certain areas that they really must have. Must have. But actually, from having done the podcast and spoken to a number of different treasurers, you guys are very flexible. Exactly as you talk. You've never done a bond in your life. But the fact was, it was a process. And I've had it before with some capital markets activity, in particular with talking to a client. And you know, one of them, and this was a deputy treasurer many years ago, she was going into this rush, I really want to do this. I really want to do this. And the treasurer said to me, mike, bonds are boring. I was like, what? No, no, no. You go in, you do all the structuring, get it all sorted out. You get to the really, you know, signing it. Yeah, yeah. You don't. You give all the paperwork to the lawyers and they say, can you leave the room, please? You go back the next day as they go out for a lovely lunch and you have to do all the paperwork. And they said, so it's, you know, it's not always like that. You know, that's tongue in cheek. But it is more of a can just be, you know, and a lot of clients are saying, must have this, must have this. When you were talking to that potential boss, how did you convince them that actually, I don't need to have done a bond to raise a bond or to do that. What was, what was the way you.

Addressed that personally think that it's not necessarily about, you know, what your, say, technical experience is now, I think if you're going to be hiring somebody that's a treasurer and you want them to, to be able to do the job. Right. And to me, and, and I think the same applied to her is that if you can do 70%, if you can take on 70%, you know, and obviously this is a hypothetical number.

Right.

But, and, and then you can, you can start working on that right away and you can start making a difference.

Yeah.

And if you're the type of person that can learn that additional 30% quickly, and if you have other skill sets which are maybe not technical, but more, you know, your personality and how you fit into the company and your leadership style, etcetera, that are really valuable, then that 30%, if you're convinced that that person can learn that and really, you know, learning the tricks of the trade, so to say, I think that's of less importance than all the other aspects that I just mentioned. And I think that is also the way that she looked at it, and that's the type of person that she was looking for to fill that Role. Yeah.

Amazing. And talk us through because again, so you're there, you were in Chicago, but then you made a couple of moves locationally, but your role grew and grew. But you were then leading a global team of 30 plus people. So you'd gone from 10 years before again pensions and stuff like that, but you grown your responsibility. What was that like? That real step up in terms of people wise as well.

It's probably one of the most difficult things to manage teams. And we've started off the conversation with that and we talked about it before as well. To me, people are the most important asset of a company and a lot of people will say that. But I personally feel that I also live by that. You cannot do anything by yourself. Right. The US has the saying there's no I in team. And I truly feel like that you accomplish something with a team. So managing a team and giving them the right level of accountability and holding this carrot in front of them that drives them and getting things across the finish line, but also seeing the reward, not necessarily a financial reward, obviously that's also very important. But giving them the credit for things that you do. So really taking them out of, you know, if they're in the comfort zone, you know, from my perspective, you don't want to be in that comfort zone. You want to take that next level and you want to take on those challenges and helping them grow in their roles, maybe also personally grow. I think it's really, really important. That is great. And it's easy to do if you have one or two people. Well, I don't want to say it's easy to do, but it's easier to do if you have one or two people reporting to you. But if you have ultimately, you know, at the end of my dinner with Everest, 32 people. Obviously they're not all direct reports, but you are coaching people then, not just on a technical and personal skill set, but you also need to help them work with their own challenges with that team. And it becomes very, very large and it becomes much more complex. I had five direct reports and then everybody else was reporting into those direct reports. But the bigger the team gets, the more difficult it becomes and the more difficult it becomes to roll out the way that you feel that things should be managed. So despite the fact that I feel it's really, really important, it's also very difficult to do.

Apologies, we skipped past because you made the move from Aeon Join evraz. What do Evras do? I know, but again, some listeners are going, I wish you'd Ask that. So I better ask that.

Yeah, no, yes, absolutely. Everest is a steel manufacturing company. So I was working for the North American division, which was a global steel company. Their exchange traded on the, on the footsie. The North American division was focused on the US and Canada. And they had three large steel factories, or plants as they call them there where they make different type of products. So they used slabs in order to turn those slabs into coil and then turn the coil into pipes. Pipe and pipe. I'm talking about pipe that goes into the ground vertically in order to drill oil, but also pipe, the large stadium of the pipe that is used to transport oil and natural gas from different locations. And the other thing that they were focused on was recycling steel. So they used a lot of scrap material, put it in electric box furnaces, and then turned that into billets. And those billets were mainly turned into either smaller pipe or into rail. So a large rail supplier for the western part of the United States, a large pipe supplier for the western part.

Of Canada, and for yourself, obviously. So you were there seven years, you know, amazing experience for you, but at the same time, difficult times in the markets overall, you know, how did you. There were challenging times, you know, not necessarily just for their company, for many different companies you've been through ups and downs and peaks and troughs and things. How did you cope? What was your sort of way of managing coping and stuff like that? How did you keep your focus, if you like?

Well, that's a very true point. I think for specifically the steel business, the years that I was there was really, really tough. Right now, steel prices are at very, very high rates, but unfortunately not when I was there. And so it becomes you're working for a company that has a lot of really great ideas in order to invest and to expand. And not just the ideas where to expand, but also to be able to be competitive in the market. So there's a new type of rail that we're trying to develop and for which a new rail mill needed to be built. We were upgrading the quality of the steel so it's cleaner and taking the green aspect into account for certain, but also much more durable. And it also had less chance of fracturing. So much better ultimately for the environment and things that were absolute drivers in order to get that done. However, if your company is going to trough or through experiencing a lot of headwind, it becomes really difficult to get the capital resources for that. And so I think that was one of the biggest challenges. Part of the financing that we did was run by A parent company. But part of the financing that we did was also on a standalone basis. We did a lot of different things. You were just talking about the bond market. I actually found it very fascinating to do. I agree with you. The more boring structured aspect, or at least to me, more boring when it's, it's. You need to read through, you know, all of the documentation in order to. To ensure that everything is right and not just leaving it to the lawyers because you, you know, you. You want to make sure that you know what you're getting yourself into, but doing the roadshow and talking to investors and, and really understanding your company, understanding what's going on, what the company does, but also being able to take the company to that next level and looking at being honest about. But also about the opportunities and really maybe sell is too big of a word, but sell the company, sell the belief in the company to your investors. And whether that was for the, for the bond investors or whether that was in conversations that we had the banks, that was something that we did, which I thought was. Was great and building trust and solid relationship with banks that are not just going to turn the heads when things are a little bit more difficult, but together with you work on solutions. And that was definitely not easy, but it was definite. Very, very rewarding.

You know, bring us more up to date sort of thing because obviously your time with Evraz, then you did a couple of other things and then bring us up today with. I want to, you know, not run out of time today with. About Zalando and things like that. So talk us through then what's happened more recently with yourself, if you would.

Yeah, I had an opportunity with Everest to go to Europe and by that time I'd been in the US for more than 10 years. And so, you know, we really felt that that was. Was great to. To do an expert assignment. Took that expert assignment and still was responsible for my activities. The U.S. you know, we're in London and just really was welcoming to be back in Europe and we wanted to stay. We didn't want to go back to Chicago. Chicago had been great, but like I said, you know, we've been there for quite some time and now we wanted to grasp that opportunity to stay in Europe. Unfortunately, that was not something that I could do with Everest. That meant that we had to separate ways. And so we separated ways and an opportunity came along to work for Zalando. So that initially I was thinking this is going to be a very big change for me coming from the steel industry, which is Much more. It's a completely different place, a completely different type of product to an online fashion platform. And so I was definitely interested in the company and everything that the company was doing and what they had achieved, but thinking, is this going to be the right fit? I had a lot of conversation, a lot of different people within Solomon. And it's funny how throughout the interviewing process, also interviewing the company and making sure that that is something that you know a company that you want to work for. And I was really impressed by everyone that I talked to and what Solando stood for and what they established. But they were still like, you know, they established a lot. But from my perspective that was only, you know, the beginning and there was so much more to come. I really got eager joining them, to join them and they wanted to hire me. I started a few months ago with the company.

You just covered it as you touched on there. What do they stand for? And you know, again, I describe them just very briefly. But can you for the, again for the listeners describe what you believe they stand for and what then convince you? Because you know, that's exactly what people are listening to today. So.

Yeah, so from a product perspective, it's an online fashion platform. So you go to the website and you can buy clothing that are either white labeled or clothing that they have in their own stock or you can have access to what we call park partners, where you can buy that are using the platform in order to sell their product and that can be. Larger companies can also be smaller retailers. Right. So it's really using an online platform in order to be able to get all kinds of, to get access to all kinds of different fashion items. They, I think, you know, some of their core values are great inclusion and diversity and also like really looking at sustainability and trying to be on top of things and they're, you know, want to be the leader in making sure that the fashion items are produced in a sustainable way and that there's opportunities to recycle fashion, opportunities to, or secondhand clothing to be sold. So those are all things that I value very much myself. But one of the things that, you know, you don't know this when you join a company, but the entrepreneurship of the individuals that are working for the company and they have our farming mindset. So there are key criteria and things that they live by. And so one for example is to start with yes, and I really think that's a strong one both in a personal and in a professional area where if there's an opportunity or a challenge rather than not wanting to work on it, let's see how we can work on it and how we can actually resolve this. And like I said, the entrepreneurship. You have an idea, then show it and let's see what we, what we can do. And really taking, embracing, you know, embracing that and seriously looking into things to see if you can, if it can be established and if it's going to make a difference to the company, which I think is a great way of doing things. Very motivating.

And with, you know, you've come into this fresh treasury and I asked this question so often on the podcast, but it bears repeating thing before we, you know, we're getting later on in the show, but I still think we've got time. You've walked in. What's your checklist? You know, you walk in and go, right, okay, where are the risks? Where's the fx? Where's this with? Or you've walked in as a treasurer again, I've had listeners say, oh, we've gone back through some of your previous shows, Mike. I'm starting a new role. I've gone back through and sort of. We'll come up with a bullet point list at some stage. But for you, you know, you're joining from heavy industry, if you like, to a fashion group house and, you know, and everything else that encompasses. Exactly, say entrepreneurial group. What was your checklist? You know, what was your. Okay, guys, we need to focus on this, this, this. What were you looking at?

For me, it was really key to understand the business and what they were doing and how treasury can support that business and also understand who the stakeholders or customers are from, from, from Treasury. So I think I had a very good onboarding process. I got introduced to a lot of different people and despite the fact that everything is pretty much done remotely, I've only been to the office three times. We were able to do everything through video conferencing. But I got the opportunity to speak to a lot of individuals understanding what they were doing within the organization. So learn more about the organization, but also what they needed from treasury, what they currently were getting, and talk about other things that maybe they were aware of or were not aware of and how treasury could support that. So I think that was a very important part. But then also looking at things that were already in place and things that were not yet in place. And I think from the core, things that need to be done in treasury, it's not that you go into an organization of the size of Solando and you need to completely change everything because Things have not been done correctly. A lot of things were already in place and we're very solid and working very well. Yeah, but I think one of the key things is that Solando has in the core things that need to be done in Treasury. It's not that you go into an organization of the size of Solando and you know, you need to completely change everything because things have not been done correctly. Right. A lot of things are already in place and we're very solid and working very well. Yeah, but I think one of the key things is that Solando has indicated that they're going to be growing three times over the next four years. You know, they came from two students that are working out of their, out of their basement and selling flip flops on, you know, online to a company that is now around 10 billion in in size over 12 years. And now they continue that growth path. And how can treasury support that growth? You were just talking about new countries, right? 23 different countries where Sabamo is operating. You know, what do we need from a banking perspective? What does that mean from foreign exchange perspective, but also how, what's, what is needed in terms of working capital or capital investments in order to support that growth. How big of a player. We just became a member of the Ducks. 40. Right. How big of a player do we want to be in the, in the capital markets? And that kind of shifts the dynamic from what the status quo was to what the status quo is going to be in two years or three years from now. And so besides getting to know what Solando did and how treasury could serve the current needs and was having the current needs, how is that also going to be, you know, going in the floor in the future? And what type of things do we need to do in order to be able to get there?

Yeah, amazing. Well, we're approaching the end of today's show, sir. We've covered so much. You know, we could, we could keep talking for a couple more hours, but we're not allowed to. We keep this to half an hour, 40 minutes. You're a busy treasurer, etc, apparently you've got a day job, which is weird because you could just keep on talking to me on this. But as, as I say, each week we'll put your details, your LinkedIn details in the show notes. But reflecting on all of this over it, what sort of, you know, takeaway advice. You've heard a couple of the podcasts, so you know what it's about and things like that. But if someone's listening in today and they're early stage career or later stages. What are the, the key takeaways you would do now? There was one of my, one of my guests in the past, so I want a bit more than just. She was wonderful, but she just said, be resilient and don't be afraid of change. I was like, oh, great. And that was, that was it. It was like, oh, drop the mic, and walked out of the room. But I was like, okay, that was, that was a short one. But for you, what advice would you give to some of the listeners today, if you would?

Some of the things that really helped me is don't be afraid to take on things that you, that you have no experience in. Be willing to learn and create that opportunity to learn. Allow yourselves to make mistakes. And you can only do that if you have the right support. Your team or your direct lead or boss needs to be able to give you that opportunity to learn that. But if you have that and if you have that open mind and really want to work on those things, I think you're going to be learning a lot. And not just the technical skill sets, but it's amazing how you develop yourself personally if you do that. So that would be one of the things that I think is key. And, you know, don't be afraid to ask questions because not asking questions can get you, or asking them too late can get you into a much worse situation than where you should be. Just ask. Everybody needs to learn. You know, that's. I think that's something that a lot of people are hesitant about doing because they don't want to look as if they don't know and think that people expect them to know. Yeah. So keep an open mind. And yeah, I do agree with being resilient and I think you said diligent. That's, that's, that's also, that's also very important. Yeah. So that's, that's what I would.

It's your takeaway. Yeah, Well, I think the work for me. Well, being open to someone perhaps who you're hiring, you know, being more open about, you know, do they tick every single box? Maybe not, but that this is what they can grow into. But again, as you say, that sort of openness to learning once you get there yourself as a treasurer. So I think amazing takeaways. I knew there would be, sir, because we had a great chat before and we thank you very much. So we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you if it's going to be good. To be, you know, in their network and everything else. And, you know, I was looking forward to this because I knew it would be a great show and it has been. And just thank you very much for all the, the sharings and the learnings that you've shared with our audience today.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

It was my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify, or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even, even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce. Every week it'd be amazing. Destate, say 20 seconds. Leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Sa.