Big Leap EP#25 - Why You Love Being Lied to and Conned

Gay and you watching or listening right now, I know you love to be lied to. Think about it. There's Nexium, there's American politics, there's elections, there's cults. We're all being lied to. Social media, it's nuts. What do you think of that? Gay?

Well, I've been wondering about that lately. Why is it that human beings love to be lied to so much? And I've got a couple of personal examples of places I've been and things I've done where I got put down right in the middle of a situation where people had been lying to each other for a long time. A cult leader. Love to talk about that, but I'd really like to look at this whole issue of what is it about us that makes us want to believe things that aren't true?

I think this is fascinating. So that's what this episode of the Big Leap is all about. And we'll be right back.

We're back.

Hi.

How you doing?

Gay? I'm doing great today. How are you, Mike?

I'm great. This is awesome. I'm so glad we decided to do this. I was thinking how to take on, you know, one of the things that bothers me sometimes about podcasting, and I realized this whole notion of being authentic and in full transparency to everyone watching, listening. We did an episode with Dr. Ben Hardy earlier, and he talked about how important it is to be authentic. And we all love to think that we're authentic. I like to think it. And then I was just making a video before we started. I'm like, I'm not being authentic. I'm performing. And I know in podcasts I want to be super authentic. I'd like to have a crazy, deep conversation. But the God honest truth is I'm afraid of revealing, and I'm afraid that I won't be liked or I'll lose an audience. And the truth of the matter is, the fastest way to get a great audience is by being super deep and authentic. So I thought, well, let's just rip in and tear apart American politics and the lies we believe. So why don't you talk a little bit about some of the thinking that you've been doing lately to get things rolling?

Well, it started when somebody contacted me about something that happened way back, probably 30 years ago.

A group in Massachusetts. And I'm cranking my brain trying to think of the name of it. Kripalu. That was the name of it. Kripalu contacted me and Katie, and they had had a big issue happen with their guru.

And he had run off with. He'd gotten involved in some sexual improprieties with other members of the organization and had run off with a whole bunch of money and left the place in a real mess. And so Katie and I, along with a couple of other therapists, I remember John Gray was there, and there were probably a couple of others were invited to come in and work with the community, which, if I remember correctly, was probably about 100, 150 people. There was quite a large room full of them, and they were extremely traumatized because they'd been living inside this lie in a particular way. The guru not only had conducted these improprieties, but then he asked members of the community not to talk about it. So a couple of the women were involved, were sworn to silence. Finally, one of them couldn't deal with that anymore and came forward. And then several other women came forward, too. So it involves sex, it involves money. But what I was really started wondering because all of these people in the room, all the members of the community, they were all bright, and they did yoga all the time, and they ate vegetarian food. They looked like the healthiest group of people you'd ever want to see. And I came away from there wondering the first night after I went back to our rooms, why is it that a group of people like that would create such a situation in their lives? So let's pause there for a moment. Let me ask you, first of all, whenever I look at a situation that I'm stuck in, I always like to ask myself, not what is the situation about, but why would I be doing it now? Why would I be creating this problem now? It takes my mind out of the content of the problem and puts it on, kind of looks at it from the outside and say, hmm, what are you doing right now? Why would you be creating this problem right now? And so I started asking members of the community, why do you think you would put yourself in a situation where you would be lied to and financially ripped off? Because the guru had departed, I guess, with a considerable sum of money, millions, if I understand correctly.

But what it had left, what it left behind was this incredible cauldron of people who had been living inside a lie and then suddenly being thrown out into the real world and not knowing what to do because they'd been living in this contained community.

Yeah. So here's a couple things that pop into mind as I think about this. And.

I don't remember where I saw this recently, but it effectively had something to do with an individual who was backed in a corner. And whatever it was, it was some wise person said, you can really understand who someone is based upon how they behave when they're backed into a corner and they either lash out and they go for it, and it's like all hell breaks loose. Kind of like as of the time, you know, it's, look at what Trump did when the election results came out. Lashing out. And it's all hell breaks loose. But it's like if you back a wild animal into a corner and what they do or do, they just cower like a baby doe does, you know, they'll just flop down and play possum. And possums do that as well. So I think the. One of the questions to ask is.

Is the. Is an individual backed into a corner? But as a follower.

What I think the number one things that drive followers, and for that matter, religion, politics, etc. Is hope. People will buy hope forever. And leaders oftentimes do what they do for sex, money, power, but also it's a fear of loss of that. So there was something that popped up in the news recently. A guy was involved in a Ponzi scheme and went on the lam, went on the chase, and I think it was the FBI was chasing him around. And what he wound up doing is he backed up into a reservoir, I think it was near Mount Shasta, with an underwater swimming device, trying to get away. And he ended up sitting underwater for like 50 minutes until he got too cold and he had to come up. That is cold water, by the way. It comes out of the mountain. But it's like there's a guy who got backed into a corner. He ran to the only place he could, you know, because, like, the world gets really small when your lies are about to catch up to you and when you're facing your innermost demon. So again, I look at this and think about.

You know, a couple, again, anchor points that I know we're going to dive into. One of them is I want to talk a little bit about Nexium, that cult, because there was a documentary I just watched. I've always been fascinated by Scientology. I've also really interested in your thoughts on the election and what happened with Trump, especially. Such a fascinating character on every level. And then also social media, the social dilemma, that documentary, which I found very fascinating. And I've always been interested in influence and persuasion, but when it comes to mind control, that's where I draw the line. So those are some of the initial thoughts, but I'm interested in what you're, you know, if we want to bring this back to the Kripalu, you know, what was the resolution, what wound up happening and what's your evaluation or thought on this?

Well, it's very fascinating to me that a psychologist named Leon Festinger, back in the 60s and early 70s at Stanford, he was a professor there and he did a number of studies on cults. And at the time there was a big end of the world cult that was going on in the area and he had a couple of his graduate students join the cult and infiltrate.

What's this guy's name again? I want to look him up while you're chatting.

Leon Festinger. F E S T I N G E R Very brilliant psychologist. And I got to stanford for my PhD just after he had left. So he was very big influential person there at the time. And so the, the bottom line finding of the study was he was interested to know what was going to happen the day.

That the day came when the cult leader said the world was going to end and the world didn't end. How would people handle that situation? It's a really fascinating moment. So he had these, his graduate students inside the cult watching all this happen. And what happened was that when it was announced that the leader was wrong and it hadn't happened.

About a third, if I remember, of the people quit the cult, but the rest of them became even stronger true believers. So something weird happens and I'd love to get your thoughts about it too because nobody's ever quite explained what is the weird thing that happens. Let's say.

When you're abusive daddy, when you finally see your abusive daddy, when you walk into a room and catch him beating your brother or sister or his wife or something like that, what do you do in that moment when your illusion is shattered?

I know what this one is. I've thought about it a lot. But keep going, keep going.

Yeah, go ahead. I'd like to hear your input on that.

Here's what I have found and I'll tell you how I've even exploited it in the past, which is I think when we associate our identity, when your identity gets involved, will stop at nothing to protect our own self perception of who we think we are. And that includes managing and maintaining a lie. And when someone falls into the hope sold by an individual and they get their own identity wrapped up into it and when they have propagated a lie, the lie becomes part of their identity as well. So we are shaped by and defined by our beliefs, our values are the filters that let beliefs in or don't. Right. They're kind of like the, the, the screen. And so what. One of the ways that I've used this in the past, and as parents, we've done it with our children. But the most effective way to always be in power is by asking better questions. And one who's always asking the questions, as soon as you're responding, you're already on the defensive, or you might have to defend your point of view, in other words, your belief. And that includes your identity. And so one of the power mechanisms you can use is you could ask someone a lot of questions. It's sort of like going to court. And then you can say, but earlier you said blank, and earlier when you said blank. And you can also reinforce that and get someone to agree that they said it, they said it, and then you can catch them in the lie. But that's again, when you're gonna back that beast into a corner and you're gonna see how they behave. Do they just parrot? Do they play possum? Do they flop down and succumb? Or are they gonna lash out? So I think, and by the way, I was looking this up when you were describing.

So it's when prophecy fails was what Festinger came up with. And.

Here'S what he said here. The disconfirmation, the belief must be held with deep conviction and be relevant to the believer's actions or behavior. The belief must have produced actions that are arguably difficult to undo, which an identity is difficult to undo. The belief must be sufficiently specific and concerned with the real world such that it can be clearly disconfirmed. The disconfirming evidence must be recognized by the believer. The believer must have social support from other believers. So anyway, this is the increased conviction.

And again, I think in the, in the, with the.

In the case of our election.

Followers of Trump, for example, are so invested, their identities are invested. Think about how many people have cut off ties to other family members or.

Had them cut off.

Yeah, totally. And that goes on both sides. I'm not just picking on Trump followers, but I, it's, it's.

It'S interesting because.

There'S so much disinformation propagated by social media. And the kinds of disinformation that people are arguing against are science based. You know, it's really don't believe in scientists. Journalism has been. And that's the part of where the Democrats have screwed themselves is they've completely destroyed journalistic credibility by having activist journalists, which is, is not those two Words should not be put together. An activist journalist. The nature of being a true journalist is to present both sides and to provide evidence and not be biased. And that's my opinion, anyway. Or, you know, I think that is a rule. It's a container that cannot be and it should not be. And if you want to be an opinion journalist, that's fine, but don't try to be. Pretend you're. You're one of another. But anyway, I think this is where identities have gotten messed up. So I don't know if, if there's any clarity in what I just talked about, other than I've thought about it a lot. But at the crux of it is the. It's the. As soon as your identity is wrapped up in something, both. You've both lost power and power can be gained over you, and that's what gets manipulated.

That's really a good point. In psychology, we talk about fear, the four Fs that come along with being scared, fight, flee, freeze and faint. And, you know, the possum faints, actually keels over and rolls into a ball. The.

Rabbit freezes. And then other creatures, ourselves included, come out swinging when we get scared, and others run and flee.

Most of the time our personality is defined by which one of those we do when we're scared. And, you know, we can see in the White House now. One response. You know, the come out flailing and flighting kind of thing.

Well, denial. Plus have someone else take the fall and then abandon them. That really has been, again, I'm not taking any political side here other than I think he's a complete piece of work. I've never liked him as a human being from day one. That has nothing to do with my politics. It just simply has to do with his character. The but is, here's what he's always done, get a fall guy. So disassociate, Disassociate yourself from anyone who's not a true believer and destroy them the moment they aren't. But always prop someone else up and sacrifice someone and give them power until they finally have had enough. And you saw that happen with Cohen, his attorney. It's bound to happen with Giuliani in this case, but he's almost the last guy who's left swinging on Trump's behalf. As of the time we're recording this and making a complete jackass out of himself. He's got. I can't imagine he has any reputation left. But again, with the true believers, they don't care because, again, their identities are so wrapped up in a crazy belief system.

Yeah. And I think ultimately what that comes down to is a real hunger for some kind of identity for a person who doesn't feel any organically. You know, somewhere along the line, somewhere we get traumatized or interfered with in some way so that we dissociate ourselves from our bodies. And that process start. If we don't do something about that, that starts a process of us dissociating and therefore allowing ourselves to be manipulated. And I often wondered, you know, when I used to work early in my career with family therapy, situations where.

People would choose to go back into a situation that had abused them sometimes even a week or two before. They'd still have the black eyes on their face, but they'd choose to go back into the relationship because of that hope factor that you mentioned, that somehow they can override the past by installing a new.

And it was devastating to see because, you know, we would work with someone to get them kind of strong again, and then they go back into the situation where they had originally been traumatized. That's why in the mental health profession, there's such a high burnout rate, I think, because you see things like that happening over and over again. But I think that what happens is somewhere along the line, a person is so hungry for identity that they glom on to whatever the thing is. And, you know, like, I have a member of my extended family that was in a deep consideration about his sexuality when he was. As a teenager and as many of us are, but he was kind of figuring out what. Whether he was gay or straight or what kind of thing like that. And to resolve the situation, he. He kind of changed the subject and became a very strong religious believer and sort of took the attention away from that issue by.

That is really good. So when you take on an identity that's a moral fixture, you can stand behind. Think about how many gay priests hid behind that, because in so many countries, they'd be killed. Yeah, literally. I mean, that. That is something I will tell you in Africa and Uganda, where Vivian.

Spent a lot of time. The Anglicans are very powerful there. They control communities, and they do tax the poor and the ignorant. And I can remember meeting this Anglican priest, and I mean, this guy was about as gay as they come. And. And it was just obvious. But you can hide and. And. And that would be a way where you could. The rule set and the engagement and what you can and cannot do to the institution. So let's call that an institutional identity. If I were gonna make Something up right now, being able to hide behind that or adopt it so you aren't attacked or killed in that case, or whatever that may be. But what do you think of that?

Well, it illustrates my point in a way, because there's somehow a deep fear in there that the belief is taken care of on a temporary basis. It's putting that fear to bed for a while by installing a belief over the top of it. Ultimately, though, if you try to live inside a lie or live on top of a lie, your body won't let you do it. We are wired for truth. We prefer truth. In other words, the hunger deep in our bodies is to have an alignment between what goes on inside ourselves and what we speak about. And then what we speak about and what we do are lined up together. So happiness, in a way, and peace of mind comes out of a kind of alignment with your beliefs and your values. And when those things start rattling, it has to come out in some way. And I've probably worked with. Over the past 40 years, I probably work with 100, maybe 150 different men and women who were former priests or nuns or people that were very involved in a religion of one kind or another. And they often go through a period of real wandering in the wilderness after they kind of break free from whatever the belief system is, of not feeling, of not knowing exactly what to believe and that kind of thing, because they've been used to sitting on lies all their life. And so I've had the privilege of working with a lot of folks like that as they've kind of found a new belief system that's based on something that's organic and true for them, not something that was installed from outside.

Wow.

So two things popped into my head as I was listening to you. One of them is.

Who am I? And the other one is.

Having an identity stripped away from you. And if we explore that a little bit now, one of them would be, let's pretend you're president. And then suddenly you're not because you got elected out of office. Or let's say you're a fan of a president and you've engaged in all sorts of things. Now, again, let's just say you're a straight, logical person who believes and has a shared value system or an opposing value system. And it's sort of like I'm willing to put up with crazy behavior or all sorts of stuff because I like what values are represented, or I'm so opposed to the other that, you know, if I have to choose between a 51 49%. I'll choose crazy as long as my values are supported. But where people get particularly defensive is imagine being a defrocked priest, okay? That's when your identity is stripped from you.

Losing that power or having, you know, you think about how much work someone is willing to do. Celebrities are good examples. We're maintaining the illusion and wanting to be in the, in the right social community and then the depths that someone will go through to maintain the illusion or to steal to support the illusion.

Go ahead. Yeah, I was just as you were speaking about that, an example popped into my mind of something that I'd forgotten about. But a man once came to me who had been a very higher up person in a big spiritual organization. At risk of their attorneys, I don't want to name it, but it was a popular one that everybody's heard of. And at one point the leader of the cult or group or whatever you want to call it, brought in his top eight people.

And made this announcement that caused it kind of a, caused kind of a fracture among the group. And the, basically the request was this. He said, you can't work for me unless you're willing to lie for me. This is the bottom line here. And at that point the guy that I worked with said, I can't do that. You know, and so he got separated from the rest of, you know, he was given a chance to resign, get out of the thing and everything. But if not, he would have probably been fired. And so there were one or two of them that said, that doesn't work for me. But then the others, you know, then if you are willing to step forward and make that commitment, I'm willing to lie for you. You know, that's a very powerful thing because that gets into things obviously that could put you into prison and all sorts of stuff like that. But that to me seemed like an acid test kind of.

Moment, you know, that a first person is that, that wants that identity so badly.

Well, and the opposite of that is banishment, tribal banishment, which I believe is, is the, one of the ultimate powers of a group. So, and, and again, I'm going to pick on politics here because both parties, when I say Democrat, Republican, but for that matter, I would suspect all of them if we did enough. An analysis is, is party politics. What are you, what lies are you willing to support in order to m. Maintain majority rule? And ultimately that is what I think that.

Ends up being one of the most divisive, destructive elements of the end of a civilization. You know, you look at what happened to Rome?

And you could argue certain, you know, in capitalism, ultimately it's the special interests, it's the elites that are served by the powers that be.

And that's again, fear of loss, fear of control.

But I'm trying to think right now, if we were going to dive in, have you dealt with and talked to or worked with people who have exited cults, discovered the lie, and then.

What'S.

The probability in your experience of people who just adopt a new lie? Because that's wired into them. They just take on a new institutional identity or truly break free and craft their own identity, or what are some of the other behaviors you've noticed? So, and I have a specific reason I want to ask this, but I want to ask some core fundamental questions first.

Well, one of the things, yes, I've worked with many people that have exited, and sometimes, interestingly enough, it's a crisis of their own soul. The kind of a dark night where they, you know, try on the belief system and then decide that it's faulty based on what they've seen with their own eyes. There was apparently a politician once that said, are you going to believe me or your own lion eyes?

Oh, that's great.

So.

In people I've worked with that have woken up, I think that what wakes them up is a combination of the dark night of the soul plus a lot of oftentimes social stimulation from members of their family. You know, like I think of one situation with a Scientologist person who had separated himself from that organization. You know.

Some of his family kind of saged an intervention and said, look, I know you're in this organization, but look at the rest of your life is falling apart, you know, and so that helped wake him up, just having that family pressure on it. But that's not enough a lot of times because I've seen other situations where family pressure is applied and the person just becomes even more locked in. In fact, that was one of the things that impressed me about watching the NXIVM documentary.

You know, like, picture yourself, Mike, being in a group and somebody comes over to you and says, the leader really likes you, would like to have sex with you. It's a spiritual thing. It's a real compliment, you know, and sure, yeah.

You know, I can't picture myself going along with that one, but I can picture some of my friends that haven't gotten laid in a while and that would be very attractive, you know. Yeah. And so, but that was amazing to me that a. Rather.

To me, he wasn't A real special looking guy.

You're talking the Nexium guy.

The Nexium guy, yeah. Which he was just. Yeah.

For. And for our viewers and listeners, if you're watching this right now, I'm going to switch to this so you can see him. So this is the vow.

Which I watched, I thought was very, very interesting, very fascinating. And yeah, I mean, he's kind of a little guy, but in his case there you can see the, the.

Symbol that was branded on some of these people. But wow, it was so fascinating and I really.

I enjoyed watching it. And I think part of what was appealing again was a. He provided hope and a structure for salvation. So as I think another core wiring that's built in here. And again, if you look at.

Scientology falls in the same category of this. And there's some good Scientology documentaries as well. And frankly, lds, the Mormon church has been having some big struggles because a lot of people are talking and I know someone who just left in less than the past year and he just said, I couldn't, I couldn't hold the lies in my head, the misinformation that was going on. And I know, I know too many people who pretend to be things they aren't.

In the church there was so. But part of what I think happens is if you're presented with a structure for salvation. And imagine in the.

The classic hero's journey, the hero, you are guided by a mentor or a God or a whatever towards salvation. So once upon a time, they lived happily ever after. The end. But along the way, you slay a dragon, you rescue the prince, or you're discovered by the prince, you rescue the princess, you take on the qualities of a hero. And if you are incrementally rewarded with acknowledgment, recognition badges and levels. I think this is one of the things, like I meet so many people who from a practical purpose accomplish nothing. But they become recognition addicts, meaning they go to school and they go there to get another degree or another piece of paper, but do nothing with it. Nothing real anyway.

That's another addiction. And I think it's an easy way out from doing the real work or the hard work, which is join a cult, operate within a rule set, get rewarded and have acknowledgement inside a community. It's not real. You end up being a slave more often than not. That serves the master. And I see that as a very common.

As a commonality here as well.

Yeah. And I think that's one of the extreme ironies of the whole thing, is that a Lot of people go into these.

Organizations looking for some kind of freedom, and there is a certain freedom in having somebody tell you what to do all the time. Yeah.

It's an easy way out. The illusion of freedom is bondage.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, based on our conversation so far, I have even less desire to join a cult now than I did when we started 45 minutes ago. I don't know about you.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think as I look through this. So I want to just close a couple of loops, though, which, you know, we talked about Nexium, the.

Documentary to watch, in my opinion, is the Vow. There's. It's fascinating as hell. And you really meet the guy. Like. I found the founder captivating and interesting, even though.

Him and the woman who was the other leader in there, I didn't find either of them particularly charismatic at first. They're not like beautiful people.

But they had that special it factor, and they delivered an emotional release and the promise of it, and they always kept you wanting more. That's another thing that every cult, every religion, there's an infinite number of layers and levels, and you can never get to the top. That's one thing for sure.

The other one that we talked about was, again.

The one about Scientology. We didn't go in that, but there's a. A series that's. If it hasn't hit, it's about to. As of the time, we're making this from Leah Raimini.

Oh, yes, I've heard of it. I haven't seen it. I think. I think it's out there.

Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, it is. Yep. Scientology in the aftermath. And she was just on. I think she was on the Joe Rogan podcast. But there's, you know, this. I've seen a couple.

Shows, documentaries. I found them very interesting as well. I think Scientology, just the very notion of it, especially given the fact that I've always been a big Frank Zappa fan and Joe's Garage was a portrayal. Have you. Do you remember listening to Joe's Garage, the album?

No, never.

Like Joe. Well, in the. In the album, it's all about a guy who.

Ends up having sex with, like, this robot. And it's all tied to a Scientology thing. So everything's a big metaphor. It's a stack metaphor. It's very, very heady and intellectual, but it's absolutely hilarious. And I got exposed to the. That album before I really got exposed to Scientology, so I couldn't take. Take it seriously. And, of course, if you watch any south park, they do a great job of ripping, ripping into that. But the last thing I wanted to encourage everyone if they haven't checked out. The social dilemma, which we really didn't tap into is how social media has been engineered. I believe accidentally. I think the, the net result of social media.

Media, it all started as how can we keep people glued to the screens and on our site? And really, really smart people who studied a lot of psychology and user interface design got together, they brainstormed and they iterated in real life with hundreds of millions of people and had AI looking at the data and figuring out patterns. And now that the cat's out of the bag, there's no way to turn this thing back. There's no way any government can ever regulate this. If there ever could be an undoing for human society, it would be to say we as human beings can't regulate or control this. So what we're going to do is we're going to create an AI that monitors stuff based upon a rule set and we're going to put the AI in charge. Those who agree we should keep the guns and the heroin needles and the addictive tools out of the hands of our children, raise their hands. Okay. It's better for society, it's better for democracy, it's better for capitalism. So let's turn on the AI overlords and give up our power. Oops. That's a good foundation for a science, but really that are a science fiction movie or book, but that there's no way we can back out of this right now. And the social dilemma doesn't quite go that far. But if you watch some Black Mirror episodes, have you watched any of those?

No, I haven't, no.

Oh my God. So this is the present day version of the Outer Limits or Twilight Zone put in high tech where people are controlled, manipulated, literally blocked out. You could take augmented reality and virtual reality is so powerful that you can turn someone off and you can't hear them or see them. So through an app you literally can disown someone and they, they cease to exist in your physical reality. Just wild stuff like that. They take it to the nth degree so well. Any other thoughts on this, this baby? Now that I let that cat out of the bag.

I've got some TV catching up to do. I think down at the bottom of everything though is always a quest for authenticity that human beings are going through. And part of that is finding out what our true identity is. Who am I? You know.

The great Indian teacher Ramakrishna back in the 19th century. His whole procedure was to have people sit down and just keep asking, who am I? Who am I? To get down to that place that's beyond whatever identities we've glommed onto out of fear and hunger.

It's a lifelong quest.

Yeah, well, that and if you are doing your real work, it's not static. We're dynamic, complex beings. I don't think that there's an ultimate who am I? Answer. And if there is.

Good for you. I don't feel like, I mean, I, I look at each of my identities and reinventions and I'm sure that there's this one core force that's consistent, but I'm not sure what it is. And I, you know, I, I'm afraid that the. From the inside of the bottle, I can't see the outside of the label.

Yes. I think some famous person said the instructions for how to get out of the box are written on the outside of the box.

True that. True that. That's great.

Well, again, we've, we've opened up a giant area here and I don't know if we've solved any problems or not, but I hope we've shedded a little bit of a light on the situation.

I think so too. So. Well, we can officially bring this episode. Episode to a close. But before we do that, one of the best things that you can, as usual, vote this. Subscribe. If you're not a subscriber on itunes or the podcast platform of your choice, rate it, review it, and share it with someone you know who could benefit from an episode like this. Maybe someone who's locked into some kind of an identity constraint. And of course, if you're watching this on YouTube, if you'd like and subscribe to this channel, that would be awesome too. So gay. Another great episode. I appreciate you very much.

Appreciate you too. And don't forget everybody to go over to Big Leap event and sign up over there.

Yes, that is true. Good call. Good call. Because we are doing the big Leap year together and we'd love to spend some time with you, get to know you better and join a non cult way to have a better, better life. So thanks for that.

Thanks everybody.