Improving Your Creative Processes with “The Beatles: Get Back” | The Big Leap #61

Hi, this is Gay Hendrick. Welcome to the Big Leap podcast with me and Mike Koenigs. In this episode, we're doing something really interesting. We're taking the Beatles document and doing a quick dive into it and opening up a bunch of territory about what you can learn from it for your own creative process. I've got a lot of stuff to say about it, and so does Mike. So let's get into it.

I can't wait. There's a lot of good stuff in here, like you said. And I learned a lot about Gaye's background in the music industry listening to this. And you'll hear about how he actually spent some time listening to Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix. In addition to, we're going to recommend some other great rock documentaries. All that and more on this episode of the Big Leap.

All right, welcome to this episode of the Big Leap. In this one, Gay and I are going to be discussing our reflections after watching the Beatles Get Back movie, which was produced and directed by Peter Jackson. I think it is an absolute masterpiece. I learned a ton about creativity and collaboration during it. So our goal is just to kind of pick it apart and talk about our favorite spots that had the most impact on us. And I've actually thought about this for weeks and months. And for years, I was a massive Beatles fan. I listened to their music both as an engineer, as a musician, and I would absolutely have to say I think they are one of the most extraordinary bands to ever exist. And as creative collaborators, I had more respect for them after watching this episode. So gay.

Well, I'm with you all the way. I go way back with the Beatles. From 1965 to 1968, I was a disc jockey at WLOF, Channel 95 radio in Orlando, Florida, which was the big rocker in central Florida. And it was also the station that a lot of the record promoters came to, because Florida is a place where people break out records a lot of times, because if you can get it to be a hit in Florida, it'll sweep the country. So we launched many, many hits for the first time. But I'll tell you, the coolest thing that happened was.

Everybody in the music world knew that the Beatles were in the studio recording Sergeant Pepper, and everybody was waiting to hear because we heard, kept hearing these emanations out of the studio that it was like no other Beatle album had ever been. So the in tensity of the expectations and interest was really at a high. And we got a call. My radio station got a call from a guy in London who Had bootlegged a studio copy of A Day in the Life.

Wow.

And he said, I'll sell it to you guys for $300. Now you got to go back to 1965, because $3,000 was a pretty good. You mean 300 or $3,300 was like $3,000 today. And, you know, my radio station was prosperous and everything, but that was a pretty big chunk of money. Plus, the only way to get it was to fly somebody over to London, chain it to in a briefcase and bring it back, which is exactly what we did. But we were the first station to. To play A Day in the Life on the air. And it was electrifying. The dub, the studio dub wasn't great. You know, it was like a dub of a dub of a dub, but it was good enough to, you know, to appreciate what it was. And man, did our ratings spike over the next month. Our dailies went on like meteoric climb.

That is a great story. And as a result of that.

Was there no consequence at the time? I'm just curious as a slight tangent, but was there no consequence if you had bootleg stuff and played it like that?

Oh, there was big time consequences. Yeah.

Oh, did anything bad happen?

No. You know, everybody was so caught up in the energy of the whole thing that I don't think anybody. Maybe somebody thought of suing somebody, but it never happened. But we had to go through quite a thing with the station's lawyers to allow us to play it.

Okay, well, let me ask you a question, which was when you going back to the documentary, the movie? So it is three. Three hour segments, it's nine hours. And Peter Jackson said that's as tight as he could get it. I actually think he could have knocked off some of the.

Extra, but I think he really wanted to create a sense of the environment, the atmosphere and what was going on. So I've got a couple questions for you, Gabe. The first one is, when you watched it, was there anything in particular that you learned about the Beatles or their creative process that you didn't know before or was highlight? Because I had a lot of them. But I'm super curious what your take as it is take on that was.

Well, the big thing I noticed was it turned everything upside down from what I thought I had known about a lot of their creative process, because I can't remember that other. There was another documentary quite a while back.

Where they Go and Abbey Road and all that. Mm.

Was it the Let It Be one?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was it. Let It Be but that would lead you to believe there was a lot more, you know, kind of sourness between them and bickering and things like that.

Yeah, that was the big point. They talked about it and they. Even the Beatles, in some subsequent interviews, they said their big fear is that it was really going to just get back at the pain. And Peter said, no, no, this is really positive. You guys were loving each other back then and Let It Be kind of flipped it and it edited around to make it look like there was a lot of anger and frustration.

Yeah. And I just swallowed that whole. You know, I just assumed that was the way it was. But then you see these guys for nine hours jamming together and harmonizing and playing, you know, just like in the manner of a juggler practicing at home. You know, just kind of two jugglers practicing at home. And then.

There was way less ego than I also predicted completely. That was pretty stunning. But I'll tell you, just to have this.

You know, when I originally heard the Beatles, I kind of pictured them like they were in this movie, this latest movie, Get Back, you know, jamming and friends and goofing together and sometimes getting tweaked. But, you know, nothing like that was in Let It Be. And then suddenly we hear this whole new way of being the Beatles now. And it kind of restored my original good feelings about the Beatles when I first heard their music, because it was. Just sounded like they were having a blast together.

Yeah, well, I think the context. What I.

There are a couple things that happened. One of one other thing that happened while this is occurring is Vivian and I watched it together, and she had just finished reading the latest John Lennon biography by.

John is very famous author. I'll look it up while. When you're talking next and I'll pop it in. But she was giving me some backstory on all the stuff going on at the time because he had dropped acid like 3,000 times by the time he was there. He was strung up on heroin to some degree with Yoko. But when you see him in studio, some of the things that I got that were the most powerful for me is, first of all, I started seeing a lot of parallels in my own life or even like, what we do here, which is, you know, when we decide we're going to meet, we have an idea, we talk for a little while, we banter, take a couple notes, and then we improvise. Now, what the Beatles do in studio, or did rather, was they get together. And a lot of folks don't realize they were together since they're 14 or 15 years old. Harrison, you know, 14, John and, and. And Paul. And then, you know, Ringo came a little bit later. But for the most part, young teens practicing, performing, learning covers and really working dark, dingy, smoky, yucky places. And their recording career was pretty much six to seven years. Okay. And they cranked out an average of about three albums a year during that time, especially once they got off the road. So their improvisational style was sit down, start jamming, making a bunch of funny noises. Start. They made funny noise sounds. And then all. Once you'd hear Paul go.

And mouth a couple things, make up nonsense words and lyrics. And then each of them started filling the blanks. And sometimes the song, the hook was made in two minutes. And you watch this evolution until they're finally performing on the top of their studio Apple Corps. And it was mind blowing what they pulled off in three weeks. And to think that the albums were really a captured moment in time of a bunch of accidents and mistakes, often that become signature sounds. But it's not like these things were planned and practiced and performed. It's sort of like they just got it far enough along. And what you're really listening to in the albums is unfinished, unpolished.

It's like a Picasso, right? It's messy. I just. That I didn't fully comprehend until I watched it.

Yeah, it was a beautiful insight into the creative process.

I remember one of my favorite philosophers that I've read about over the years, Heraclitus. He was famous during his day. He was kind of like the John Lennon of his day. And he was very reclusive and he didn't like to have his students hanging around. So he would get up in the middle of the night and go down to this place in Athens and post an aphorism or an idea. Then all of his students would rush to this place and look at it and discuss it. It's a whole different world. But one of the things he said is the.

Essence of the universe. Like a child at play with colored balls. In other words, juggling. The act of just kind of playing. And then suddenly something catches. And I remember that moment too in the movie where all of a sudden Paul starts.

You know, just making up ridiculous words. But then, whoosh. You know, suddenly you can see George get interested and then you see John get interested and then start kind of playing with it. And, you know, I, as a creative person myself, that's really the way I. The way it works in my own mind. Even though I don't collaborate now as Much as I used to. But I've collaborated through, oh gosh, my wife and with a couple of other co authors through probably 15 different books. And some of my favorite memories are just sitting around kind of juggling ideas and playing with concepts and with putting things in a new place. And I also. When I was a disc jockey back during the 60s, I also managed a couple of rock bands. One of them had a modest success on Columbia Records with a song called Flower Girl. And the band had a great name. They were called Plant Life. You can still find them on YouTube. That was back during the 60s. Everybody was called something like Chocolate Watch Band or, you know, the Raging Hummingbirds or something. But our guys were Plant Life. And I had the pleasure many times of sitting in with them as they were creating things. But as you know, they were such immature brats in such a way that they had temper tantrums half the time and caused things to. And they were also. We had lots of problems with money at the time. But anyway, it was a good learning experience. And I love the Beatles and I've always loved them. And to me they're more than just a band. They're a feeling to me, a feeling of freedom, a feeling of full expression. And I always admired them for that.

I agree.

Well, here's another question for you, Gay. So there were a couple incredible producers here, like George Martin and Glyn Johns, who's the engineer for a good chunk of the album, who also worked with the Stones. And he ended up extending his stay because he was supposed to be in LA to work with someone. I'm not sure who it was, but you really got to meet the technical folks who were literally inventing at the time to have an eight channel recorder. They were running twin four channel recorders at that point and or syncing them up. And they were reliant on slicing tape or just capturing the moment. And because it was live, they had like a microphone per instrument. If they had eight channels, it'd be a microphone per instrument and a microphone per voice.

And they captured what they captured and, you know, they either took it, did a take, but they weren't doing sophisticated editing back then. But I'm curious, looking back at the technical relationships that they had with people off camera outside of the band, is there anything that you noticed, you know, when it comes down to getting coached, being produced by the best at the time, how important that was? Is there anything that you have to say?

Well, I'm also interested in that technical aspect of it because of having spent time in A studio and sat there next to the producer, that kind of thing, and listened to the decisions that had to be made. Well, I'll tell you an interesting inside baseball story there with the Rolling Stones. Glenn John Glenn Johns was this incredibly brilliant. Still is, I guess, incredibly brilliant engineer that engineered something like 15 or 20 Stones albums in addition to the Beatles. Here's something interesting you heard in the Beatles documentary how they related to. To the professionals. Contrast that with the Stones. Glenn John said that he's known Keith Richards since Keith Richards was 15 years old and recorded 20 albums with him, or something like that. And he said Keith Richards has never spoken to him in his life when he came into the studio or left the studio, that Keith Richards has never acknowledged his presence one single time. I just blew my mind.

Wow.

Well, one thing I'd say, Glenn, what the hell? Why wouldn't you engage with them? You know, it's sort of like It Takes Two. But to think that. I wonder what the psychology of that is. Either Richards doesn't think a thing of it, or maybe having a relationship will change something. I mean, there's a lot of places my brain goes. But that's very interesting.

I thought it was really interesting, too, because in the studio, the relationship between the engineer and the producer and the band, you know, it's everything.

But his point was that Keith Richards is so tied up inside himself that he just never ever thinks of anybody else that's not him. And so it's kind of hard to imagine. But also, you got to factor in that Keith Richards has created some pretty darn good riffs in his time.

Yeah, yeah.

Sometimes you have to make allowances for genius like that, I suppose.

Well, here's another question I have for you, which is.

A couple things happened during the recording and you saw their manager come in. I don't remember which one at that point. And Paul was doing some deals where he was buying sheet music. And it turned out that the Beatles didn't make a ton of music from their music for a while because of licensing and rights, from what I recall, anyway. But they made a fortune because they bought large volumes and libraries of sheet music, which, of course, they got paid royalties when schools would buy the sheet music or use it. Right. And the other thing they did is they were one of the first to produce some of their own stuff. They created Apple Core, which I actually literally didn't realize Apple C O R P S was Apple Core. And I didn't put that together until, like, today. I feel like I'm boob For that. Duh, apple core. And then the other thing that happened is they were one of the first to buy their rights back. That's one of the ways that McCartney became very, very wealthy. But they also really understood the power of getting off the road, producing music in studio and then doing films and doing television. And when this movie started, originally it started in a. In a studio where they were going to do a television show and perform the album live. And then they also talked about going out on the road and doing something international. And at some point, they're like, none of them wanted to do it. They just, you know, John wanted to get on and have a life and move to New York.

They were starting young families. They had been together since they were kids, and they had never really experienced freedom. And now they're so famous they can't go anywhere. So they're stuck in their success. So I'd like you to reflect a little bit on, first of all, just the evolution of thought, you know, because they broke into selling and controlling their own production, their own media and medium. They're very sophisticated or just surrounded with sophisticated people who gave them great advice all the way to controlling their environment. But all those things, I gave you a lot to work with. But again, you were living at the time. You've watched a lot change in media and television and creation and publishing. What's your take on that?

Well, first of all, a lot of people don't understand the role of publishing in the music business. Whoever first thought that up is an absolute genius because you don't even have to publish sheet music in order to collect a publishing fee on every piece of music you sell. But then, of course, you get licensing if anybody else does use it, even if nowadays they don't often use it in a physical form of a piece of paper with the notes written on it. But oftentimes it's digital and that kind of thing. But it's this side thing that runs alongside the sale of the records and that kind of thing that I'll give you a personal story.

I've known Bonnie Raitt and Kenny Loggins for half my life, probably, and both wonderful friends of ours. One day, Bonnie Raitt was visiting my house over when we lived over in Montecito, and I wanted to take her over, and I was trying to get Kenny Loggins on the phone so I could get them together and see if we all wanted to have lunch. But I couldn't get hold of. But Bonnie wanted to see what his house looked like. And even if he wasn't there. So I drove her over there, and as soon as we drove up to this big mansion, she said, that's publishing that bought that house. Not concerts, not the music that's publishing. She knew immediately where the money is. And a lot of the kind of free money is in music because there's no overhead for publishing fees. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to make a record or.

Lazy mailbox money. That's really smart. Yep. Oh, here's just. Tiny side note, don't put a pin in where you are. It turns out the property we bought literally right next door is Bonnie Raitt's brother in Toro Santos.

Oh, really?

He's, like, across the street from us. Yeah, David. Yeah, yeah, he's right there.

Here's an odd fact. At my.

50Th birthday party, David's band came and played a couple of blues sets for us to dance to, and I ended up singing a blues song with his band. He's got an excellent. Got an excellent band.

Oh, that's awesome. I love it. Well, I have an idea for you when we finish up here today. I'm not going to announce it, just in case you'd say no, but. Okay. So back to publishing. Do you have any other reflections with regards to publishing, the fact that they owned it? Because I do have another question about creation.

Well.

The same thing that Oprah did. The reason Oprah ended up a billionaire was she kept her show, basically. Whereas somebody like Phil Donahue, he did a great talk show, very positive talk show, and was good ratings, second to Oprah for many years, but he didn't cash out with any billions or even probably maybe 25 or 50 million, which is not a bad career.

Yeah, better on the kick in the. You know what? Huh?

It's like that thing that.

Chris Rock, the comedian, said. He said the difference between.

Rich and wealthy. He said, there are very few wealthy black people. There are quite a few rich black people. He said, rich is Shaquille O' Neal making $25 million a year in basketball. Wealthy is the guy that writes Shaquille the check. You know, that's a whole different level of the game where you own a basketball team. Let's say, rather than being a cog in the machinery. And the Beatles, you know, they got to be such a level of success that they could do deals that were unheard of in the music business about how much of their royalties they get to keep and things like that. So very few people are able to do that. And today, in Music is a whole different world. You know, it's. Everything has changed so much since the era of digital downloading has begun.

Yeah, that was something that I made a note while I was watching. You know, this was, I think, the first. If he wasn't the first, he was amongst the first to actually do digital downloads. And I went. When he started doing that, of course, Apple or Beatles held out the longest. They wouldn't let their products be digitally downloaded. And of course they fought with Apple Computer over the name and ended up doing a deal for an undisclosed sum, which also included distribution of their music, finally digitally. But it took many, many years. They were in a massive lawsuit for a long time. So not that that has anything to do with anything, but here was the question I had. It was a creativity question. Gay.

When you look at the way you've created over time, writing books, novels, screenplays, music, collaborating with people, did you see.

Familiar processes when you watch the Beatles do what they did that, or were there some insights that you had that you're going to use or you want to use?

I recognized a lot of the way they go about things because it's the same way I go about things. Just kind of like I might.

Like today. I probably wrote a page or two just in a big flow, but then I got to one sentence and I probably spent 30 minutes playing with that sentence. And most people don't go to that amount of trouble. Recently I was reading about Leonard Cohen, who was a very creative guy, and he was about this poem that he was turning into a song. And he said he spent 150 hours working on what was like a one poem that he was turning into a song that is dedicated. I mean, think of that. Think of working on something for 150 hours, just one little song. Well, that's what it takes.

Remember a couple of the Eagles guys saying that, you know, minis the night, they stayed up all night trying to get one little line to work. And.

The creative process is a little different for everybody, I guess, but in one way it's very similar in the sense that you've got to go down in there, you've got to be willing to go way down inside and not be satisfied until you've brought forth the thing that you want to bring forth. And to me, that's one of the great satisfactions of life. That's why I hope to never retire. I want to keep using my creativity as long as my brain cells are still working in a reasonably good fashion. So far, so good, by the way.

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's some really good tools that are showing up for both. Longevity, brain longevity. So here's the last big question I have for you. It's a contrast piece. So one of the things that we got to see in the documentary is all of the Beatles could play everything. You'd see John playing bass and then guitar and then drums and then keys. And I think I saw everyone playing everything. I'm not sure about Ringo, but certainly between George and Paul and John. And.

I think an area of frustration that I've had is, you know, I listen to and see a lot of music and it's. There's no difference in time signatures.

You know, because Beatles would play sometimes in 3, 4 and then 4, 4 and 2, 4. They'd mix things up, they're pacing their courting. They really had some really interesting things going on. And these days with sequencers and loops.

At least pop music, there's, it's, it's not that there isn't creative stuff, but to me there's a lot more junk and noise. And maybe it felt that way in the 60s and 70s. I can remember when disco was going on, it was like, yawn, you know, a lot of it was garbage. But I'm curious what your take is when you look at and contrast present day music.

That music and you know, Beatles as performers and musicians. I just love to hear your take.

Well, I don't want to come off like an old fogey, which probably I.

Am, but all right, we both are.

A lot of the, A lot of the stuff I try to listen to. In fact, I always watch Saturday Night Live and so I get to hear their new takes on things and all the hip hop things and everything. And I just don't hear the creativity that was there, you know, like I fortunately, like I love Jimi Hendrix and my daughter who's, you know, in her 50s, she loves Jimi Hendrix. And I know 14 year olds that love Jimi Hendrix. So there are some kind of geniuses that transcend generations.

I don't know if a lot of the stuff right now is going to transcend generations because it doesn't have a distinctive enough sound to it. One of the things that the Beatles had going from the beginning, Mike, was a particular songwriting strategy that they used over and over again. And it was to have a couple of verses and then a middle eight that took it into a different key or dimension and somehow like, you know, I want to hold your hand, I want to hold your hand and then you get to the middle eight.

And then it goes into the third verse. Well, if you listen to a lot of their early music, it follows that kind of formula, which I think is a really excellent formula because it matches the way the brain works and because we like novelty. So there's a couple of verses and then something goes into another area and that tweaks our emotional center and then they come back to the final verse. So it was a very harmonious type of music to the way the brain works. A lot of the stuff I hear now has more meandering quality to it. It doesn't really rhyme and it sort of goes around and that kind of thing. One person I'm crazy about right now, though, is Billie Eilish. I've really been enjoying it. Oh, yeah, she's something else.

I agree. She's exceptionally talented. I love the fact that she's been producing with her brother as long as she has the family connection. I'm like you. I do watch every Saturday Night Live, and I would say maybe 1 out of 12 performers I like to listen to. I'm appalled at how horrible a lot of them are.

But Billy got out there and also, yeah, she did a decent job as a little actress. She was very charismatic. Much more better than I had anticipated, you know, But I. I agree. So there's something that I.

Have been doing. There's a gentleman. His name is Rick Beato. I don't know if I've told you about him or not, but he is a producer. He's been a producer. He's in Atlanta now. Has been for decades. He's probably. He's a little. He's in his early 60s. But what he does is he deconstructs music and he talks about what is. He'll do an episode called what Makes this Song Great? And he'll tear apart.

A Jimi Hendrix song, for example, or something by Sting or the Police or the Beatles. And he's done a lot of Beatles stuff.

Stuff.

And. And he can play and perform anything and. Because he's. I think he went to.

What are the two big colleges, music schools. Berkeley and what's the other.

Boston is Berkeley College of Music.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think he was a Juilliard grad. Anyway. He's classically trained, plus, you know, engineer for many years. And he can just perform like anyone. And he's gotten so much attention from his YouTube channel. We're talking close to 3 million subscribers now. And.

He.

Has gotten the attention, like, he just had Sting on it. He had Pat Metheny. He's getting a lot of great musicians who come on just because he has such a great technical understanding of music and he asks really intelligent questions and then, you know, have him perform. And then another place that I get a lot of great ideas I find very, very fun is Tiny Desk concert by npr. They'll bring on a performer and they'll play like three songs. And it's acoustic usually, or, you know, lightly. It's kind of. Kind of an unplug style. And the production's fantastic. But I think the point I guess I'm getting at is.

My big takeaway after sitting through this was I had a newfound appreciation for.

True artistry. And to me, true artistry is the combination of composition, uniqueness, talent, raw talent, meaning being mastery of an instrument, a willingness to play. And then they're. They're poets, they're great lyricists. And to be able to come up with a hook like that, they make it look so easy. But, you know, think about how many people have been performing and, you know, 10, 20, 30 years, and they never have a number one. You know, they may have almost gotten there. And how. And you look at McCartney and Lennon, to this day, McCartney still has had more number ones than anyone alive. And last I saw, I think Lennon's been number two forever. Maybe someone's eking up there, but.

It'S phenomenal to look at that. And apparently it wasn't until afterwards, like, between McCartney and Lennon. Lennon didn't have a number one for the longest time until I think it's that Christmas song. It was one of his first. I don't remember exactly which one, but I remember I was surprised it took so long and surprised of what it was. But he ended up going out and he played and performed with the Stones. He did with.

I think, yeah. Elton John.

Yeah. So.

Well, I.

I appreciate what they did after they broke up and went their separate ways, but I don't think either one of them did anything creatively like they did when they were together.

Stating a controversial point here, but to me, it was the blend of their voices early on that really caught my attention. Technically, the fact that two lead singers were singing into one microphone. That's very different than singing into two microphones. And if you can do it, if you can put up with the other person's breath, bad breath.

I know I think about that all the time. Every time I watch it. Smelling another person's microphone alone is bad enough, but being next to someone's stinky breath and that. Oh, yeah.

Well, the only thing that got. Got them through it is they both had the worst cigarette breath. You know, all of them did. You know, they all smoked like chimneys and so they probably couldn't smell anything but cigarette smoke.

Yeah. True or. Yes, that. That is. That is the one thing, you know, just the gunginess of that. Those rooms. And it's just one after another. And I. It took me a little while. I. I actually watched the series twice and it wasn't until I was a little ways in. I'm like, oh, they're drinking tea. It's not coffee. It's not coffee and cigarettes. It's tea and cigarettes. But, boy, it definitely ranks as. I can't say I'd have to think about it a little bit as to whether or not it's my favorite rock documentary, but it definitely is in the top three if it isn't the number one.

I'm a connoisseur of rock documentaries. What are a couple other your favorites?

So I have to look back. I just poured through a bunch of them on Netflix. I watched one about David Bowie that was fantastic.

I enjoyed the Police documentary.

That was very, very good.

I've watched a couple stone stocks, but I can't remember what they are. And then there's one. I can't remember the name of it, but there's an area in the Appalachians that has a studio.

And it's where a lot of great albums were made. So a lot of great people went there because the studio musicians were great and the engineers, and it's still around.

Oh, you're talking about Muscle Shoals.

Yeah, Muscle Shoals. There you go.

Yeah, that's in Alabama. It's not in the Appalachians.

Alabama. Oh, okay. Why did I think it was in the Appalachians?

Okay.

But that was another one that really, really touched me. So I'm a sucker for him there. I watched a doc recently about Queen. I've always been fascinated. I think Freddie Mercury, if he wasn't the most charismatic performer, he's certainly one of the top three as well. I just can't believe the caliber of his energy.

But how about you? What. What shows up? If you're gonna recommend one, two, or three other great documentaries? What are they?

There was another police documentary that was made by Stuart, the drummer from his own.

Yep.

Saw that. His own home films. I love that. I also loved way back.

Both the Stones documentary called Gimme Shelter and the Led Zeppelin documentary called the Song Remains the Same.

Yep.

I got to spend an evening with Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin once, which was really a great treat back during the 60s in his pre Zeppelin days with starred Birds.

Oh, yeah. Well, he. Rick Beato interviewed him.

Yep. And. And he also interviewed. Who's the guitarist from Queen.

Brian May.

Brian May, that's right.

Yeah.

Great job.

Well, I got to hear Hendrix live and I got to hear Jimmy Page live. And probably they were the two greatest guitarists I've ever seen in person or heard in person. Just the amazing kind of sound they were able to get. You know, how that people don't realize how much. How much attention you have put into it to get a sound that sounds good live in addition to one that sounds good on records. It's a really. A quite an artful enterprise.

Yes. So I have two more to check out. I can't tell you exactly which ones they are. One of them is the Genesis documentary.

Okay. It's really fascinating. And then I just watched one on.

Phil Collins, and if you're not. Don't know about this. So Phil hurt his back some time ago. They did surgery. They never could fix it. He's in excruciating pain for years, and he's. I didn't know it. He was a raging alcoholic for forever. Pretty much destroyed his family, his relationship with his kids, his first wife and then his second wife.

And he's back on the road and his son plays for him. His son's playing drums. And then Phil just sings and he's really quite horrible. I mean, he's just. He has to sit the whole time because he's in pain.

And it's. It's, you know, truly his last time out, and he's performing with Genesis and the rest of the guys look good, and they sound awesome, but.

There'S quite a few live clips of Phil performing, and he's a guy who just should have stopped while he was kind of ahead. But I think he's just doing it for his kid and staying busy because he's suffered from, again, alcoholism, probably drug addiction, you know, pain pills. And.

You know, it's tough to watch him because he was such an incredible musician and had such a crazy.

Career for so long, but that's one of the sad ones. But, yeah, I'm a sucker for them. I probably watch a rock documentary at least a couple every month for sure.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I'm always on the lookout for one. Well, let's wrap this up, Mike, before we go wandering down memory lane too far here. And so what's your next big creative move that out of watching all those beetle documentaries?

Well, I did. I did something I didn't want to do. It this time, but I actually documented my entire creative journey the first time I really made something.

Until now. And I saw elements of that while I watched the documentary. I didn't, you know, the first time I watched it. So.

I'm going to review that again because I, I, it really connected me with my dad, who is my hero and great performer, very good musician. And I always accompanied him. I was never playing lead. He just had a bigger personality. He was much more talented than me.

So I was relegated to playing bass guitar. You know, it was always what I ended up doing. And that kind of became my, my musical career too, for what it, what it was worth. So I think beyond this.

I love deconstructing stuff. So the journey for me is always deconstructing success and finding shortcuts to get from here to there. So that'd be mine. How about you?

I fell in love watching the documentary. Fell in love with collaboration again. I haven't done much of that in the last few years because I've been writing solo projects, writing a book on my own. But Katie and I collaborated four or five years ago on our book Conscious Loving Ever after, which is a book about couples at midlife and beyond. And boy, when collaboration works, it is just the most delicious things. Of course, I have had situations too, earlier in my career where collaborations didn't work. I had one co author that was a gigantic pain in the butt and actually slowed down the whole project and eventually had to kind of get rid of him.

But yeah, we did an episode about that. I remember.

Yeah, yeah. But now, you know, I'm, I'm ready to kind of get in there and co create again.

Oh, I love that. That's, that was the biggest thing for me for sure, was the power of improvisation. That was my big takeaway is sitting down with really smart people and not just having the creative process, but being committed and calendared and scheduled and also having the power and the pressure of the deadline.

And I know in the past, like, you know, my last book, when I wrote it, it was this one cancerpreneur I had. I was doing an event. Actually, every book I ever wrote, I had a deadline of an event with anywhere from a week to a month away. So I would just sit down, put my head down and bang it out, get it finished, published it, and launched it. And I think albums are much the same way. Any kind of a creative process is just, you got to practice time compression, have a hard deadline and a performance, some kind of a performance commitment. And when you get to improv with someone. I think it just flows and those are the. That's for sure. Like the ingredients for.

Improvising and creating well.

Right. Well, great moving with you again.

The same. The same. I'll follow up. I'll send you some of the pictures and videos. But. Well, we'll wrap this one up, which is. First of all, I hope you enjoyed it. Comment Share whatever you got out of watching the documentary, would love to hear your feedback. And and if you're interested in learning more about working with Gay and me and doing the Big Leap experience, you can text the letters BL to 855-955-3958 or head on over to bigleappodcast.com There's a big button to apply. Or you can go to bigleappodcast.com apply. In the meantime, subscribe. Leave some comments and feedback on what you enjoyed most about Touching podcast Gay. Anything else you'd like to add?

Yes, if you haven't yet seen the Beatles doc, check it out and find out what you can learn about your own creative process from it. Highly enjoyable.

Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, it's been a blast as usual, and I'll see you in the next one, gang.

Thanks a lot, Mike.

Sa.