The Church Of Rock And Roll With Jason Flom! | Capability Amplifier

I think that every great idea has been rejected by somebody who should know better, right? Everyone's wrong most of the time. In the music industry, it's like baseball. If you bet 300 you go to the hall of Fame. In any of the creative industries, everyone's wrong most of the time. And we know that Star wars was dropped, right? Warner Brothers had that franchise. They dropped it, right? And everything was passed on. Harry Potter, Nobody wanted to publish Harry Potter, right? I mean there's a million and billion examples of this. So if you're that guy, that kid, that woman, that girl, and you have that magic moment where you bump into a genius, don't take no for an answer. You know, you have to be willing to lay down on the railroad tracks and say we're doing this boss. I know I can't make the decision, but I'm making this decision and we're gonna do this. Or else you gotta fire me.

Welcome to the Capability Amplifier, the show for business and entrepreneurs who want high performance upgrades for their brains, bodies and bank accounts. Jason Flom, tell me about the Church of Rock and Roll. What is it?

The Church of Rock and Roll is a lifestyle brand wrapped up in a movement that stands for the things that I believe in. So our three principles are, number one, be kind to yourself, to other people, to animals in the earth. We were talking about that before. Number two, do whatever you want with your own body as long as you don't hurt anybody else. And number three, marry who you want, what you want, whenever the you. And what we mean by that is we're re sort of inventing the institution of marriage where a commitment ceremony means you're committed. And you could, you could commit to yourself. You could commit to your, your softball team. You're going to play the best you can tonight or this year and make the playoffs. You could commit to your best friend, your romantic partner, whatever. You'll get a certificate and a video and it'll be. Or we could do a whole, you know, like a real ceremony, right, with your friends. Because we're gonn event space. And the physical manifestation of this is going to be we're going to have food and beverage locations, sort of like a modern day hard rock, but with community service and social activism at the core. And so we're creating a space for miracles to happen. Miracles of connecting with people, connecting with causes, connecting with yourself and doing good in the world. And so our slogan is Miracles happen here. And I'll tell you more about the spaces themselves as we go along, okay?

And what was. What was the foundation? Why did you do this? What was the reason why?

I guess the origin story is that I was on my couch where most of my good ideas happen. I don't know about you, you've had a few. But anyway, that seems to be my happy spot. And anyway, I was on my couch, I was watching John Oliver do his remarkable diatribe on televangelists. And it's interesting, over the years, as I've become more and more involved in helping people and doing good deeds and trying to make a difference in the world, I become more and more disconnected from organized religion. So I wanted to. So I had this idea after watching John who's, you know, brilliant, that I wanted to start a movement for people to come together under, you know, these principles that I think Jesus really stood for. Right? And without any of the dogma and any of the, you know, the. There's just so much negativity and so much. I mean, such bad history. History. Like, listen to Sam Harris, right? And, you know, create a new way for people to gather and work together, to do good things and feel good under, you know, an umbrella of, you know, what I call doing good by doing good. And so it came to me. The only church I'm qualified to start is the Church of Rock and Roll. I am qualified to start that after spending my life in rock and roll because I'm in the music business. I've been since I was a teenager. The miracle was. The first miracle was the trademark was available. So. Unbelievable. Yeah. Right?

Talk about wild.

In this day and age, it's. Yeah, it's just like.

Yeah, when you get lucky, you do a quick search and it's like, no way. No way.

So I trademarked it for every conceivable category, and then things really started to. To take shape.

So it clearly resonated with a market. So I'm going to pop in a slightly different direction right now. Let's just talk about your background. So right now you're president of Lava Records, but you have a long standing background in music production and working with artists, and eventually we're going to get to how you think. But why don't you give everyone a quick backstory on your professional history?

So I started in the music business when I was 18, putting up posters in record stores for those of you who are old enough to remember record stores. Now they're coming back, but they used to be sort of ubiquitous. And I started at Atlantic Records on July 31, the hottest day of the year. They gave me A staple gun, some double sided tape, a roll of L posters and a ladder. And I went off to the record stores and was climbing around and I thought it was the greatest job in the world. $4 an hour, plus they let me have as many free records as I wanted. I was like, this is heaven, right? And that's when I gave up my rock star dreams and decided I wanted to be in the music business. You know, my dad had taught me from the time I was a kid. He said, do whatever you want to do, try to be the best at it, but just make the world a better place. That's the only definition of success that matters. So I realized that around this time, I was never going to be the best guitar player. I was never going to be the biggest rock star, but maybe I could become great at doing this. And so I wangled my way into the AR department. I discovered a band, they became a hit. Then they gave me a job discovering bands. And then things started getting really interesting. I discovered, you know, so many hit acts over the years, might as well rattle them off. Oh, God. I mean, it goes back all the way to, well, one of. I mean, Jesus. I worked with Jewel in the very early days, right. And she's here with us, funny enough, last night, Sugar Ray Stan, the drummer for Sugar Ray, was here, another one of mine. And then. But it goes back to Skid Row and Stone Temple Pilots and White Lion. Tor Amos was one of my early discoveries. And then it goes into collective soul and God Escape Club. And I'm trying to remember back this far. Matchbox 20, Kid Rock, the Cores, Trans Siberian Orchestra. That was after I'd started my own company, Lava Records, and those were artists that were signed to that company. I sold that to Atlantic, became the chairman of Atlantic Records and signed Hayley Williams at that time, Paramore, and then left there, went to Virgin, where I signed Katy Perry. And, you know, things really got. We really turned that company around, which was a lot of fun, you know, that that's just such a great feeling to take something that's been at the bottom and bring it to, you know, not the top, but to a successful, yeah, great brand outcome. And then, yeah, and then I left there. Ultimately we merged that with capital. I ran the combined company, Capital Capital Music Group. And then I left there and went and started my own company again, this time with Republic. And so which is the number one company almost every year over the last sort of six, seven years.

And who are you repping right now? Who are some of your top acts?

Jessie J. Lord, and now Greta Van Fleet, who are, you know, they're taking off.

Unbelievable band.

It's. It's an unbelievable thing. It's magic. You know, music is magic, right?

Yeah. And it's nice to get some guitars back.

It is. It's. It's really exciting for me because it's the music that I grew up loving. And, you know, now to be able to be at their shows and watch kids who are two generations removed from me or I don't know how many experience music in the way that I did growing up, and knowing that I had some part in that is really a thrill. I'm living out my rock star dreams vicariously through Greta Van Fleet, but I've been lucky to do it through so many other artists over the years and.

Mediums, too, because now you've got this book, you've got a whole bunch of stuff. So I want to deep dive a little bit and talk a little bit about. First of all, tell me a story of your greatest failure.

Wow. You know, I've been in therapy to try to forget these things, and here you are, like, tugging at an old wound. Whichever one that is my greatest failure.

We're going to call this Trauma R Us.

Oh, my God. PTSD with Mike Koenigs. Unbelievable. So my greatest failure was.

I don't know. I mean, I would probably think that it would relate to be, you know, artists that I've passed on or, you know, I don't know what else it could really be in the music industry. You know, you kick yourself when you miss one, which is actually backwards thinking because, you know, the way it works when you're doing what I do, which is finding talent, you know, it's part of what I do. I love marketing, too, is when a new act takes over and Billie Eilish now is on the top, right? I go, well, I never had a shot at that. Nobody ever played that for me. And I go, okay, well, that one doesn't hurt. But what hurts is when you actually looked at one and for whatever reason, you didn't sign it, and then it goes to the top of the charts.

Think of one in particular that pops up. What's the first one that pops in your mind?

Oh, God. Well, Bon Jovi. I mean, there's one. But that's an interesting one because Jon, I'd heard his music. He was on a. He had made it onto some compilation of a radio station, did a. Like a compilation album of hot bands in their area in New Jersey. That used to be a thing that radio stations, I remember, and he was sort of popping off of that. And I remember I liked it. I met with him then I had this young artist that I had signed who had some little bit of success, and she was like, ah, he's no good, whatever. And, you know, I got influenced and whatever, and somewhere or other that died on the vine and we ended up not signing him. The interesting thing about that one was. And he's obviously gone on to unbelievable career. Unbelievable career. And, you know, and by the way, he deserves it. I mean, the guy worked his ass off and he's done good.

I mean, he's got his kitchen, he's doing a lot of good work.

He does a lot of concerts for the Democratic Party. And, you know, he's a good guy. So, you know, I'm happy for him. But the interesting thing with that one was that, you know, his first album was a qualified success. It did okay. Right. But nothing great. And then the second album, some genius at polygram, where he ultimately signed to, had the idea to put him together with this songwriter named Desmond Child, who at that time, I think had been known for writing disco songs. So a very odd pairing. And they wrote, you know, Wanted Dead or Alive, and they wrote Living on a Prayer together. And so that combination really is what made John into Jon Bon Jovi.

It's almost like Elton and Bernie, huh?

Well, yeah, except for Jon would have been a star no matter what. He's one of those people that, you know, if there's a wal, he's walking through it. Right. But it never would have reached the levels because those songs are always going to define his career. Everyone needs a career song. Those were the career songs, and he happened to write them with Desmond, which is an odd pairing that never would have happened, I believe, had he signed with us. So it was a hard one to stomach. I mean, look, I came close on Atlantis. I mean, I wanted to sign Atlantis. My bosses wouldn't let me. But maybe I should have pushed harder, you know, or maybe I could have. I don't know. I mean, it's interesting because success has a lot of fathers in most businesses, I imagine, but certainly in the music industry. And, you know, and every situation's different. I mean, I've learned one thing is that. And I'll. You know, for anybody who's a young entrepreneur, I'll drop this on them. I think that every great idea has been rejected by somebody who should know better. Right. I mean, as my dad used to say, trees don't grow straight to the sky. But I teach everybody who's ever worked for me that when you have that moment where you find the next Springsteen or whatever it is, don't come put it on my desk and then hope that I'm there, going to understand it as well as you do, because I probably won't. Everyone's wrong most of the time in the music industry, it's like baseball. If you bet 300, you go to the hall of Fame. In any of the creative industries, everyone's wrong most of the time. And we know that Star wars was dropped, right? Warner Brothers had that franchise. They dropped it, right? And everything was passed on. Harry Potter. Nobody wanted to publish Harry Potter, right? I mean, there's a million and billion examples of this. So if you're that guy, that kid, that woman, that girl, and you have that magic moment where you bump into a genius, don't take no for an answer. You have to be willing to lay down on the railroad tracks and say, we're doing this, boss. I know I can't make the decision, but I'm making this decision and we're going to do this or else you got to fire me.

Great. That's really good advice. And I want to go a little bit deeper on that, which is the how you think about how you think. And specifically, you bet very well. So let's say if you've been betting 300, it's certainly in the high three hundreds in terms of selection of bands. And what do you look for now in an entertainer or a group? What are your qualifiers and how has that evolved over the course of your career?

You know, I think maybe because I so badly wanted to be a star, I look for stars. I have this weird sort of radar or instinct. Katy Perry, for instance, when I first met her, I had heard a note of music. She walked in. We met at the Polo Lounge in la.

And she was pretty down and out at that point. But she walked in and she carried herself like a star. And she sat down and I just, you know, it was one of those things. I just.

So describe it, tell me the story.

Well, what happened was that.

Who introduced you? First of all, how did you connect?

I'm glad you asked. I just taken over Virgin Records and I went to hire a woman named Angelica Cobb, who had been in the publicity department at Atlantic. She was Kid Rock's publicity person. And then she went to run. She was number two at. In the publicity department at Columbia. I hired her run our publicity department. So she comes in and she says, listen, I think that, you know, Columbia's getting ready to drop this woman named Katy Perry. I think she's a star. You should meet with her. So that's how it started. And then we arranged this meeting. And it's funny, too, because I'll tell you this. So I meet her. I'm totally smitten. I said, this is. This is just girls going places. And then I got the music. I loved it, and I brought it back, and I played it for my top executives. And they were like, what? No, like, are you. Like, we're doing good? You're turning this dump around, right? We don't want to be saddled with this. This is. You know. And I was like, huh? And sure enough, I took a step back, like, because everybody's influenced by people around them, I think. And so I was like, wow, maybe I'm wrong. And then, like, I sort of hit the brakes. And then might have been a month later, I was in my garage in Aspen. It was Christmas, working out. I was listening to Katie just because I liked it, and I was like, oh, my God, I totally fucked this up. Like, she's great. And I thought I'd missed it, but I called her up, and she was doing nothing. And luckily, I was able to still scoop her up, and the rest is history.

So let's go down a little bit deeper, which is. I want you to describe your IT detector. So she walks in, she carries herself. What does carry herself like a star mean to you? What are you looking for?

So rock stars are interesting people. They. I believe they walk and talk differently than. Than civilians do, and they wear clothes differently. Right. I think if you go to whatever the discount store is and you pull something off the rack and you give it to Joe Schmo, he's gonna walk around, look like he just got it off the rack. You give it to Kid Rock, I guarantee you he'll wear it like a rock star. Like, whatever it is, he's walking with swagger, you know? I mean, and he's wearing what he's wearing with swagger. He could wear a. You know, I've seen him wear a. What do you call that? A Canadian tuxedo, right? Jeans and a Je Jean shirt or a Jean jacket and. And just look like he just hung the moon, you know? And it's like. So that's a. That's an interesting talent that for some reason, I have to recognize that IT factor, you know? It's like. I guess one way to describe it, Mike, is that when somebody like that walks into a room, there's not enough oxygen for everybody else. And what happened in rock and roll, which is a shame, is that it used to be that they all had that. And then all of a sudden it went to the place where. Or gradually went to a place where none of them had it. It's sort of the, you know, the dumbing down of rock and roll. And without naming names, there's been a lot of bands over the last, you know, decade and a half, two decades who, if they walked in a room, literally no one would care. They, no one would know who they are. No one's interested. There's nothing interesting about them and they don't have that. But they write good songs, they play guitars. And that's, I think, what led to the rock and roll becoming, you know, almost extinct. But now it's coming back.

It really is. So let's talk about Greta. How'd you meet him and why are they the new it? What is it about them?

I got an email, I still have it on my phone. From their lawyer who I met when I was in college, ironically. I was sitting in honors Russian expansionism class at nyu and some kid, I was wearing my Billy Squire shirt and some kid taps me on the shoulder and hands me a beer. And it was cold, so I drank it. And it turns out he ends up becoming a lawyer in the music industry. I sent him a couple great clients early on in his career. He hits me up with an email two and a half years ago now. Says, these kids are still in high school, but they're pretty good. Check them out, whatever. He says something like that. And it had a link to a video that they'd made themselves, the singer Josh directed, and some songs. And I just listened. I was like, what the hell? I mean, I was with my son at the time. We were looking at each other like, what the hell? Where's this voice coming from? And like, what, what even is this? This is crazy. So I called him up, I got him on FaceTime, and funny enough, I was wearing an early version of the Church of Rock and Roll shirt before I had the Shepherd Fairy logo that I have now. And they were like, what's that? And I told them, this is a church. And I started telling some things I told you and I said, we're gonna do. This is the thing where we're gonna do cool shit. Like we're gonna do a pop up church directly opposite the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. We're gonna blast rock and roll music, fly rainbow flags and marry two gay GIs right on their doorstep. And they were like, we're in. And so they have become like brand ambassadors for us. And you couldn't have better ones. They've written a song now called the Church of Rock and Roll. So I think we've got to going back to that. We've got a tremendous collection of assets now and a great team, and we've had interest from really top people in the branding and in the food and beverage world. And as we start to activate this, I firmly believe it's going to be the biggest, most profitable and most important project I've. I've ever done.

My instincts are, you're right on. You know, when I saw you speak here, that's the first thing I like. Oh, my God. This is a great brand. It's got legs, for sure. And the fact that you come from an entertainment business, you understand, I mean, in my opinion, all great religions are great entertainers, first and foremost, and that's what it takes. I remember I was talking to Tony Robbins. We were talking about him earlier. I remember at one point he said, 80% of what I do is entertainment. And I was offended by that. I was like, what the hell? That does not seem right. And now that I understand the business more and understand the stage, it makes a lot of sense. So that kind of leads me to the next question about, you know, you're integrating a lot of your life right now. It seems to me that the church does represent this full integration of branding. But you're also publishing, so why don't you talk a little bit about Lulu, the book that I just bought a few copies of.

Right.

So that we're giving away to some. Some readers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or listeners, rather.

So I have this umbrella I try to live under, which I call doing good by doing good. And so that encompasses my philanthropic. When I work with amazing criminal justice reform organizations like the Innocence Project, where I'm the founding board member. And now I've hit this, you know, I guess my midlife crisis. Instead of buying a Lamborghini or a yacht or whatever people do or.

Whatever, there's other things people do we won't get into. But that's beside the point. What I've done, I wrote a children's book called Lulu is a Rhinoceros.

And what is Lulu Is a Rhinoceros? What's the story?

So Lulu is a Rhinoceros is a book about my bulldog, who's actually not a dog at all. She's a rhinoceros trapped in a bulldog's body. So since you can't see it on the air here. The COVID came to me almost in a vision. And it was like I knew Lulu, the dog, the bulldog. She's. My actual bulldog, would be looking in the mirror and a rhinoceros. We're looking back at her and so.

How do you decide she's a rhinoceros?

She told me. I mean, I came back from Africa. I work with an organization called Vet Paw, Veterans empowered to protect African wildlife. And their mission is to save the rhino, among other species, but the rhino in particular, and amazing guys, former Marine scout sniper, Navy SEALs, et cetera. And I came back from Africa, where I was lucky to be with them and up close and personal with the rhino. And I came back and I was telling Lulu, my bulldog, about this trip again on the couch. And she says, well, I'm rhinoceros, too. I was like, what are you talking about? You're obviously a dog. And she goes, can't you see? She goes, I have short legs and a big body and a flat head. I only can run fast for short distances. I burp and snore and fart like a rhino. I'm a rhino. I was like, well, okay, then, let's tell the story. So I enlisted the help of my daughter Allison, because she's an actual writer. And we came up with this story that. That is teaching kids that it's okay to be who you are, not who you look like. And I wanted to create a little hero for kids who feel left out, put down, or bullied because of the way they look, the way they feel, or the way they are. And it's succeeded beyond my wildest expectations. I mean, I've been marketing it like it was a record, and it's been on Lulu. It was a semi finalist in the Reader's Choice Awards. On Goodreads, we have a song, a companion song for the book by Norah Jones called Lulu the Rhinoceros. We haven't released it yet. Don't go looking for it. We're. We have an animated TV series in the works and so much other stuff going on. So it's really been very gratifying because the feedback, even the anecdotal feedback I've gotten from parents of little kids who have really taken solace or gained strength from the message of the book, is all the success I really needed. And so I know I'm rambling a bit here, but so what we've done now, and since you have such, I'm.

Bringing it home for you. I got this whole thing going on.

Good Good, good. Okay. Yeah. Let me not be the narrator, then. You know what I mean?

You're doing good.

Or the interviewer. That's my usual role in my podcast. The tables are turned.

Yeah, it's good. Well, we're going to talk about that next, but keep going.

Yeah. So what we've done now is with these various different verticals that I have, there's Lava Records and Lava Publishing.

Yep. So you've got. And there's. How many bands do you represent right now that are published?

Well, we have about 10 bands signed to the record label and about a similar number of writers and artists signed to the publishing company.

Then you got the book.

So there's the Lulu's or an Espresso. There's the Church of Rock and Roll. There's Lava Records and Lava Publishing. Then there's my podcast, Wrongful Conviction, and the other podcast that I'm starting to put out for other creators and other people who are doing good in the world. And we've taken these sort of different verticals, which are all connected both through me and also by a common thread of, like I said, doing good. By doing good, we've created a company called Lava for Good, and now we're raising money. Perfect place to talk about it since your audience are entrepreneurs. Right. Investors, as you are. So we're raising money to build these brands into iconic institutions. I don't even know which one's going to be the most profitable, but it doesn't matter.

The good news is you just got to get it out there and see what sticks. I mean, that's my take on it. I think the church, what you've got there, from a branding perspective, is a fantastic entertainment and a place for creating relationships and connection and experiences. It really is a physical experience, and it's entertaining at the same time. And you've got bands, if they. If they respond just like the Greta Van responded.

Yeah.

To. To it and say, yeah, I resonate with this message and what it stands for and what it means, that's where your momentum can come from. I mean, if you can stand on the shoulders of giants, even if they're little giants, younger than you and me, it's a good thing.

By the way, do you realize if I ever was. I don't know. I don't know if she's available and she doesn't know me, but it occurred to me that if I married Greta Van Sustern, she would be Greta Van Flaam. And I think that would be kind of a synergistic Type of situation. That's not a bad idea, right?

You're a brand man.

I have a shirt that says Greta Van Flom that my staff made for me. It's pretty funny. I get a great reaction to that. So, yeah. So like you.

That was a non sequitur.

That was a non sequitur. But the. But, yes, the opportunity is real. I believe that Lulu is on the verge of turning into a really important character in the landscape, pop culture landscape. I can already envision the stuffy toy where, you know, she would have. It would be a bulldog and zip off her outer layer, and a horn would pop up and she would become a rhino. And there's just, you know, we have interest from the most incredible brands in partnering with us on it. It's a message who's very timely, as is the Church of Rock and Roll. So, I don't know, it just feels like energetically, everything's moving in the right direction, and we'd love to work with the right partners to invest and take these things as far as they can go. There's more Lulu books in the works, actually. The first draft of the new manuscript for the next book is going to be ready today. So it's fun. I mean, look, I. I'm my father's son and my mother's son, too, and I want to follow in his footsteps and make a difference. Of course, for the people who are listening in your audience, they would know my dad was Joe Flom, the amazing, brilliant legal legend.

Tell everyone who might not know who Joe Flom is, who he is and what he did.

Yeah, my dad is a great story for today, especially because his parents were immigrants who spoke no English at times. They were homeless, and he went to City College at night, worked during the day, slept on the subway, and ultimately he went. It's a great story, actually. You know, he never graduated college because he went to the army for World War II. And when he got out of the army, he wrote a letter to Harvard Law School, and he said, I don't have any money and I don't have a college degree, but I'm a gi And I'm the best thing since sliced bread, and if you let me in, you won't regret it. And I gave him a full ride. And, you know, he ended up becoming, you know, the. Well, the greatest corporate lawyer of the 20th century.

What was he known for? What was the grand story of Joe Flom?

Well, he was known for mergers and acquisitions. Right? That was his M And A was his thing. I mean, he Sort of created proxy contests. And he, you know, it's a great story too, because he went to this firm, Skadnar Slatemar, and he became Flom Skadnar slademart Flom. He went there because a Jew couldn't be hired in those days by the white shoe Wall street firms. And then he beat them at their own game. And when they tried to play catch up, it was too late. So Skadden became the force that it is. And he always wanted to build that firm in a way that would last. He said, when I'm gone, I don't want them to miss a beat. So he really, he built it to last and it has done exactly that. And his legacy lives on. You know, it's interesting too, because his proudest accomplishment, we were just talking about, I was talking about this with somebody who had the conference here near future, earlier, who knew him because his proudest accomplishment was the Scadden Fellows program, which is a program he created for kids coming out of law school who want to go work for the public good. So.

If they were smart enough to work at Skadden, he would offer them a two year deal to work, as I said, in the public good for the public good and pay them a real wage, whatever it was in those days, 85,000, call it right. Nothing like you would make if you were doing corporate stuff, but much better than you would make if you went to work for a nonprofit, probably three times as good. And 90% of those people continued to work for those type of organizations after the time was up. So that's the tale that he really wanted to tell and the tale that he wanted to leave behind.

It's a great story.

So what, two last questions for you. And then I want you to tell everyone where they should go to learn more about you. Let's do that. First, where should someone, if they're interested first of all in learning about the opportunity that you have or learning more about you, where should they head off to?

Well, there's my Instagram is jasonflom. Its Jason J S O N Flom F L O M. I'm always posting about these various things there, there's churchofrockandroll.com and then because this is your audience, I'll just give out my email address, which is jason.flomavarecords.com or@lavamedia.com But Lava Records is fine. Jason flamlavorecords.com so yeah, if you're seriously interested, direct message me. No, it's probably better to email me because I get Too many direct messages. Yeah, that's great.

All right, next one is you have a podcast.

Oh, and check out churchofrockandroll.com too, because you can see the video of the activation that we did in Vegas. You can get a shirt, you can get involved. So. Www.churchofrockandroll.com.

Easy. And what's the name of your podcast? What is that? Tell people about that, too, because you're an activist in all sorts of ways.

Yeah. The podcast is Wrongful Conviction, and we're in our about to start our ninth season to about 9 million. They call them series listens, I call them downloads, whatever. But it's an amazing. It's an amazing podcast, not because of me, but because of the people I interview. Because on it, I interview people who are wrongfully convicted of crimes they didn't commit. Some of them were sentenced to death, others sentenced to life in prison, some of them served. One woman I interviewed a few weeks ago, Bobby Jean Johnson, served 41 years in prison for a crime she had nothing to do with. And the most extraordinary people. Sometimes I go inside prison and interview people that I know that I want to bring attention to their cases. And today we got the news that one of them, Andrew Krivak, K R I V A K was just granted a new trial today. So we've had a couple of these, like Lamont McIntyre's case where he called me from the courthouse steps and said that the exposure he got from the podcast his team told him helped, even if it was 1%, helped lead to his exoneration. If I could be a part of helping one person like that, then the thing is that's, again, that's all I need.

That's a great story.

So, yeah, Wrongful Conviction is the podcast.

A lot of activity going on in that space right now. A lot of folks, a lot of friends that I know have been visiting prisons and talking to a lot of folks. So, yeah, we've got to check challenge to solve there. So I think my last question I have is, and I'm doing this for you because I'm just thinking about what are some of your greatest skills and talents? And one of them is, you know, how to get attention. We talked about publicity a little bit, and we didn't even go there. But what's a lesson from your past that you could use right now to bring more attention to either some of the artists you're working with? The Church of Rock and Roll, and, you know, if you just had that, oh, man, if I would have just you know, because sometimes we forget all of our tricks and we forget to exercise them. Is there anything that pops into mind, a little story you can tell about a great publicity experience that created a lot of exposure, great opportunity for you or a band you represented?

You know, I think it goes back to something my dad taught me. I'll never forget. I was about 10 years old, and we went to a party at the house, somebody's house. And he introduced me to older gentlemen. We walked away and he said, son, that guy's one of the richest guys in the country. I said, wow, dad, how'd he get so rich? And he said, by being friends. And I was like, oh, okay, I think I can do that. And I still remember it was a guy named. I think it was John Tigrett. But anyway, I said, what do you mean? You know, he. You know, he puts people together, makes deals, whatever. So, you know, one story is that Kid Rock, going back to when his first album. Well, which was actually his fourth album, when I signed him, he had three albums. They were all stiffs. And he was considered not only damaged goods, but, like, just stay away. And then we. I signed him and we made that album Devil Without a Cause. And I thought it was one of the greatest albums of all time. And everybody else thought it sucked. And for every fan he had, he had 100 haters. And most of them seemed like he worked in the music industry. So it was an uphill. And a lot of them worked at the company I worked at. So I was like, this is a really uphill climb. MTV hated him, Radio hated him, Press hated him. You know, it was like there was really nowhere to turn. We tried everything. So finally I took one of the key programming guys from MTV golfing, and we had a beautiful day on the course. It was a beautiful day, Played well, whatever. We get back in my car. I had a Tahoe in those days with a stock stereo, which is pretty good. And I had already played the record for him, but in his office, where he controlled the volume. Now I control the volume, right? So I put. Put it on. I played five songs loud. At the end of the fifth song, it turns to be negotiation.

This guy's gonna save the world. And I was like, I know, but it's more important for you to know. And he goes, flom. You're gonna touch them all on this one. And then he went back and basically banged on the tables at MTV and said, we're gonna break this fucking guy. Introduced him. You know, I introduced them. They ended up staying all night, cleaning out a whole mini bar in the hotel. You know, they hit. Because he's a real guy. I mean, you know, whatever you want to say about him now. I mean, back then he was, you know, he was as real as a heart attack. And we ended up selling. I mean, I remember when the record went platinum, first of all, he ended up. We took out an ad where it's just his middle finger, comma 0, 0, 0, comma 0, 0, 0. Ironically, it ran in Billboard, directly opposite the Christian radio charts. And then when it went to 10 million, I just did the same ad. Moved the comma 0. I didn't have to move the comma, move this here. I put an extra zero in there. By the way, you want to know the Kid Rock story? When he first performed in New York, York. So I wanted to showcase him for the company. I was affiliated with Atlantic back then. My company was a division of Atlantic, our joint venture. And so we rented out this studio called sir and brought in, you know, his. His band was coming to play. Nobody really knew much about him. First of all, the flyer we sent out just said hydraulic bongs, pimp suits, cursing midgets, coffins. And then it just said the address and the times. Pretty cool. And invite. And you can't say some of that stuff anymore.

You can't say that anymore.

No, that's what it said back then. It wasn't as political.

It's a history lesson.

Yeah, exactly. So anyway, but the more important part of the story is. So we. We wanted to have Joe C. Who had this little guy, used to be on stage with him, Joe C. And he would curse and rap and whatever else. It was quite a show. And we wanted to have him ride into sir on a pony and then take the stage and do the rap and Cowboy from the pony. So. Remember that song, Cowboy Baby? Right. So we had to bribe the guy at SIR they don't usually let, you know, farm animals into recording facilities like that. Not unless it's tall enough.

You don't have a problem.

So you've seen this movie. So anyway, so we had to rent the Pony from a children's party place for 200 bucks. And then we had to bribe the guy at sir 200 bucks to let him in.

200 bucks is a good deal.

400 all in, right? Not bad. Yes. He comes in, he pulls it off. He's on this pony with a cowboy hat and a six shooter and an electric pimp suit on. And he does the ride. And the whole thing went amazing. I don't know if anybody understood it, but I did. And anyway, that night, when the bass player found out that he got paid 50 bucks and the pony made 400, he quit the band. He actually quit the fucking band. That was not a good career move, by the way. Rock had no bass player the first year. Nobody noticed it. There was so much noise on stage anyway.

Exactly.

Yeah. That's a true story. That's awesome. I guess there's a lesson in there, too, somewhere. I don't know what it is.

Well, that's the whole thing. I mean, you get to stack the outrageous. Although we've got a social filter applied to our world at the moment. Until the pendulum swings back.

Yeah. So. So how do.

How do we dig ourselves out of that one?

I don't know. That was. That's a good.

I meant that with heart. I really did.

Yeah. How do we take this out of that one? I don't know. I think. Look, I would say that for me, anyway, with all the ups and downs and, you know, the music business has been great to me, and I've been really, really lucky. I mean, to be born in New York City, the people I was born to, the amazing parents, everything else. I mean, I know how lucky I am. And I've had so many dreams come true that I've had. I think I wrote down a bunch of them because I was worried about forgetting them because there's been so many of them. And, of course, like I said, it's been peaks and valleys. I've had deals blow up my face. I've had all kinds of things happen that I wouldn't wish on somebody else. But overall, life's been way more than kind to me. But the thing I've gotten the most satisfaction out of, by far, is the work I've been able to do in freeing people from prison who don't belong there and in making a difference in that movement and preventing people from going in. It's like. And I encourage anyone who's. If you're interested in a cause, if there's something that touches your heart, whether it's animal rights, whether it's helping people who are the hearing impaired or. Or whatever your thing is.

If you've got spare time, I promise you, you won't regret it. If you've got a spare few bucks, I promise you, you won't regret writing that check to whatever charity it is. It's really. I call it selfish altruism because it just makes me feel amazing to be able to make that kind of a difference and it's way more important than all the rest of this stuff at the end of the day. And now I think I've found a way with the Church of Rock and Roll to be able to combine those and to create a movement and a change while doing good and making a lot of money for our investors and more money for me to give away.

Nicely done. I love that. I love that. So we've already told everyone where to go and learn more about you. Check out the podcast, check out Church of Rock and Roll.

Jason. Church of Rock and Roll dot com. Yeah. Or Church of Rock and Roll on Instagram. And if you want to follow me, it's Jason Plom. And then. Yeah. And hit me up. I mean, I love doing public speaking. As you can tell, I' you are not. And I will. If there's a, you know, if you have a corporation or something, you want me to come in and talk? Whether it's about, you know, I usually talk about. Well, I usually start my talk by saying, this is the story of my crazy journey from want to be Jimi Hendrix, the chairman CEO of three of the biggest record companies in the world, but more importantly, from being a drug addicted college dropout to a pioneer in the field of criminal justice reform. And the speech is a journey. You can look it up online if you want to see it. If you Google, say Jason Flom Nantucket Project, you'll see a speech I made there which has a really interesting reveal. About 11 minutes in, 12 minutes in. And yeah, and I love hanger. I love doing it. So, you know, put me in, coach. I'm ready to play.

All right. This is awesome. I'm so glad we got to connect here. Jason, you're a gentleman, you're a scholar, and you're darned entertaining. Thank you.

And Mike, you've got the best shoes I've ever seen. If you haven't seen his shoes, you haven't seen anything. Motherfucker's wearing gold shoes.

I'm gonna put, I'll put them up on the page for everyone.

Oh, no, you gotta see this. I've never seen anything like it. And I've seen a lot. I hang out with rock stars. I still never see anything like this. So, yeah, I'm not going to lie, I'm a little envious. But I'm going to go online and get me some. All right.

And you should do thanks for my brother.

See you later.

Bye. Bye.

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