David C. Baker Author of The Business of Expertise- The Art of Authority Podcast with Mike Saunders

Welcome to the Art of Authority podcast, bringing you interviews and episodes to help you radically optimize your authority and influence to become the go to expert in your field. Here's your host, authority positioning coach, Mike Saunders.

Hello and welcome back. This is Mike Saunders, the authority positioning coach. And today we have with us David C. Baker, who is the author of the book the the Business of Expertise. Welcome to the show, David.

Thank you, Mike. It's good to be here. I've been looking forward to this.

Yeah. And I just wanted to kind of show. Everyone got a copy of the book and you did something really cool, which is a nice handwritten note. Mike, looking forward to the interview. What a nice personal touch. And I wanted to start off with that because it makes a really important point when we can make personal connections. Personal touch. Building a relationship that is so vital today in this world of instant this and. And message that. So I guess I just wanted to say kudos to you for that feathering your cap, because that's huge. And I know you didn't just do it for me. That's just part of what you do.

Yeah. Because I was imagining like, you must get hundreds of these sorts of things and how are. I also wanted to give you a physical copy of the book because it's. It's impressive, it feels good. But I also, like, wanted a note because I want. I want you to remember me. Right. And that's sort of the point of being an authority. So not just about what you know, but how you connect with people.

Yeah. And it's kind of like Maya Angelou's quote. You know, people will. Might forget what you say, but they'll never forget how you make them feel. And those kind of things do stand out and jump out. So I think that's really awesome. So let's just jump right into the business of expertise. Love the book. It's really well written. And I just was resonating with all of your points. But let's just jump into what the premise was that you wanted to accomplish with the book and then we'll get into some of the. Some of the main points, like, you know, being an expert helps to make your work not interchangeable, which ties into competitive advantage and things like that.

Sure. So the book, it's interesting for me, like, as an author, I had outlined, I put this massive outline together and I'm sitting down to write it, which is normally when it's fun for me. That's when the process, like all of the work is done. Now it's really fun but it didn't strike me as very engaging and interesting. And so it took on a life of its own very quickly in the project. And I decided that I wanted to write something that was much more personal to experts. And what I see is people getting in the mid to late parts of their career, and they're not as successful as they could be. And it really bothered me. And it occurred to me that the reason they're not successful, there were several. One of them is that they're not making courageous decisions about their positioning early on. And I wanted to talk a lot about that. So if they were willing to. To make courageous decisions, then I wanted to give them a guidebook for that. But the other thing was really about discipline. Like, people are just especially really gifted, intelligent people, like I imagine most of your listeners are. They're getting drawn off into all kinds of directions.

Right.

And they're not just doing the things that make money and have an impact on clients. And they're instead of getting distracted by all the funny rabbits running everywhere. So that was really the impetus for the book.

Yeah. And the first point that you made me think of, do you feel that sometimes people shy away from, you know, getting their expertise out there? And of course, that that is a huge, you know, undertaking right there, but they shy away from it because they might feel like, well, who am I? Or what will people say? Or I'm not really an expert. What do you. What do you say to that?

Oh, that is such a good point. They. Yeah, they're like the imposter syndrome, I think we call it. Whereas when I go in and talk with an expert, or you work with an expert, I frequently find that those people are actually more intelligent and disciplined and well thought through than they even think of themselves as. So, yeah, there's a part of that for sure, but they also. And that's part of the courage. Right. That comes with being an expert. Right. And just being willing to be stupid. I mean, if you are stupid, the marketplace is going to tell you that, and you don't necessarily want that feedback. But I think it's something, as the older I've gotten, I've decided, and a friend, Blair Enns, helped me with this, basically, don't be afraid of the truth. Whatever the truth is, welcome it as soon as possible so that you can then move on. And most of these experts out there are not really testing themselves. They're not taking risks. They're not throwing their thinking out there.

So.

Absolutely a good point.

You know, I think when we think of the term expertise, sometimes people have a connotation that you have to be the talking head on CNN or I'm the guy headlining whatever. But an entrepreneur, that is, you know, a solopreneur or they've got a shop of three people, or they run a consulting firm, you can develop your own expertise based on your life experience and your business experience. And where I'm going with that is, I think a lot of times, you know, people think, well, there's nothing new under the sun. You, unless you're like, you know, Elon Musk kind of a thing, let's, you know, be a disruptor. Well, in your world, in your business, you could talk about some things, but bring a new light and a new twist and a new, almost like a new innovation to it without trying to think of something brand new. So talk a little bit about, you know, how someone can make expertise without feeling like I'm, you know, blazing new trails but making it their own.

I think that that's one of the changes that's occurred in the world largely because of Google, that has opened up millions of new areas of expertise because knowledge is so broad but so fragmented. In the past, if you were a lawyer, you knew most of what a lawyer needed to do. Nowadays, there are 100 plus specialties and you can only be an amazing patent and trademark lawyer for certain products. Right, right.

And that's really niche at that point.

Really niche. Exactly. And so because as consumers of information, we have this expectation that we can go to Google and within seconds we can find a specific answer to any question we have. Often it's free to the answer. That means that nobody's going to come to us for general knowledge anymore. They're going to come to us for really specific knowledge. That's the argument for digging really, really deep so that people are willing to pay. I wanted to say something else too, because what you said really sparked something in my thinking. Like why? How do you move from feeling fairly confident to actually being an expert? Yeah, to me it comes from like, are people consistently asking your opinion on the same thing? If they are, then you ought to start charging for it. It's that simple. Really. It's like, are people regularly asking for your opinion? And if they are, then you might be able to turn that into a business that's excellent.

And then I was thinking from that point, so now we're playing ping pong. So you said this and it made me think of that. How about the competence that someone gets as they are dipping their toe in the water of Getting their expertise out there, meaning, you know, here's this consultant, coach, speaker, and they start talking about their views on this specific topic, whatever that might be, and they're kind of holding their breath, you know, what are people going to say? And then. And now it gets well received from a few people, not, you know, hordes of people coming, flowing to them, because we know that takes time. But when their audience goes, that's a good point. I think that now they start going, well, yeah, that is, I do have something to say. And then they start seeing it out there and maybe someone linked to it or they get quoted in a publication, and now all of a sudden they're like, huh, I do have something to say. So I think that kind of builds that momentum and that their belief grows as they do it. But it takes that step of faith.

Right, Exactly. And no matter how much you or I, as an advisor to advisors, might tell them that they're smart and they know what they're talking about or a spouse or significant other or family member, they don't believe that until the marketplace confirms that to them. Marketplace acceptance is what builds confidence, not what people behind the scenes tells them.

Yeah. And, you know, speaking of, you know, hey, I want to start this business. I'm going to go get some advice and form some mini focus groups and I'm going to ask some people. Well, watch who you ask, because if you ask friends, family, and your buddy buddies, they're gonna tell you, yeah, anything's good. And then if you talk to, you know, people that are in the know, they're like, are you serious?

What?

So, yeah, be careful where you get that praise from and make sure that it's well placed. So let's, let's talk about when you are, you know, getting that momentum going of building that expertise and getting that positioning out there. The concept of it makes your work, you know, kind of like that. It builds that competitive advantage and it makes you not on the same playing field as other people. Because now you're. You're the guy that is the expert on. So that interchangeability of your work and your results, I think, plays into that, right?

Yeah, exactly. So the way I began to think about this a few years ago was this notion of distributed control. So in the best business relationships, not personal ones, there is an element of distributed control, if it's a great relationship. So that means both parties have to have some control. So what control does your client have? Well, they can, like, not be available or not give you the materials or fight your fee or or ultimately they can just fire you. So they have many different elements of control. What control do you have? As an expert in the relationship, it comes down to one thing primarily, and that's to withhold your expertise. Okay, so pretend that you withhold your expertise. The clock starts at that point, and the clock doesn't stop until your client or your prospect, if they aren't a client yet, finds a suitable substitute for your advice. And if it takes them a long time to find a suitable substitute, then you have some power in that relationship and you can charge more. On the other hand, if they have many substitutes, like if I want to use a different gas station or a different pizza place or a different dry cleaner, I've got options everywhere. So none of those people have pricing power. So we're trying to craft a positioning that's narrow enough that there's still enough opportunity left, but narrow enough so that we are not interchangeable with all of these other experts out here. That's the theory behind that. It's really powerful once you. And there's some numbers around it too, but. But that's the powerful understanding and positioning in my mind.

And I agree with that. But I think someone might be listening to that going, well, wait a minute, how do I make sure that my expertise is such that it's not easily duplicatable? And sometimes that might mean that you, you need to, and I'm going to use the phrase cobble together, but, or piece together or integrate together different aspects of your deliverables, your expertise, your authority, so that it's not easily found? Kind of like if you're selling on Amazon and you're selling hairspray, well, you might have a lot of competitors, but if you bundle hairspray with a brush, now that's different. And that could make you stand out. So how can someone think from an entrepreneurial standpoint, think about your expertise, but where can you kind of layer in some extra things so that people see that as really unique?

Right. So later on in the process, it's easier because if you are constantly going up against the same sort of firms, then the same names that you keep hearing over and over again, that's a sign that you're usually well positioned earlier in that process. You have to do some searching to find. And what I tell people is there needs to be at least 10 competitors. We're just doing a Google search here, and no more than 200. That's the sweet spot for an expert out there. And if you can narrow it down to that degree, it's perfect. Now, there's an element here that we have to think about, and that's service offerings. So experts, especially towards the beginning of their career, they put all kinds of service offerings out there, hoping that a prospective client will see one of them and say, oh, I don't need that, but I need this. In other words, to increase the chances that they're going to land some business. Okay, cast a wider net, Right, Exactly. And experts don't cast wider nets. What they do is they craft service offerings slowly and carefully so that the ideal client, and there's one ideal client for an expert, is most likely to use most of those services most of the time. So it's, again, it comes from confidence and making the right decisions carefully along the way.

And that's a huge point, because I found. I think most people find themselves guilty of that at some point, and I found that a few years back. So when I narrowed it down in my agency and just focused on this one thing, it just. It just keep. It gets yourself excited and people are so much more clear. But I think then the next step, the next opportunity with that is you then see that value and you are a little bit more confident, and that allows you to make sure you're charging the prices that you should be charging and not compete as much on price. Now, I think a lot of people here, you know, you can raise your prices and you think, oh, I'm not going to quadruple my prices. And no one's saying that, but there might be that price point at the top end of your spectrum where you're like, ooh, I don't know. But as you start developing this, maybe then it becomes a little bit more comfortable because it's like, I'm the expert on X. Where does that play in with pricing?

I think so. It's interesting you mentioned the nervousness, because I think no matter how good of an expert you are, I think every price change you make should scare you a little bit. If you aren't scared, you're not pressing the envelope enough. And I think most experts, if we're looking for another rule of thumb there, they shouldn't be working hourly. They should be selling packages for what they're doing. And if they really pulled it apart and figured out how much time they put into a package, they'd be making a fair bit amount hourly. But they're just selling packages. They should look at those packages every three or four years and raise them.

If we were going to break it down hourly, it's hard to find Many experts who are charging less than 180 an hour, something like that, then most of the experts that I know and that I work with are up in the high 6, 7, $800,000 per hour. But they don't think about hourly, they think about packages. Yeah, right.

So now let's think about what are some implementation steps or opportunities. In other words, when someone thinks, okay, I've got my mindset now around expertise, authority, influence, I want to build that. I want to separate myself from the competition. Where do they start? Where is the easiest place to start to implement some of these?

Yeah, well, I'd love to say, you go, here, buy this, and then your life changes, and that's not the way it is. I think it's really more about hard work. And for me, it's about writing all the time, even if nobody reads it, because you don't know what you believe about something as an expert until you're writing it. And I don't even care if you get many people at your blog site, because not many people are going to just organically come there. But you need to be writing to figure it out, what it is that you believe. And then you can start testing it, testing the waters by putting more stuff on LinkedIn and Medium and so on. But eventually, unless you've already grown a list of like 47,000 people, get my weekly emails. Unless you've already grown a list organically like that, you're probably going to need to buy a list of email addresses that really closely fit your market. So when they get that first email from you, they don't think it's spam. They think it's like, oh, my God, this is so useful to me. This guy or girl has a camera in my office, and they know exactly what my life is like. So writing is the absolute key thing you've got to do first.

I agree. And I think the other element that you touched on, but we need to make sure people realize is consistency. Because someone can say, oh, okay, I'll do that blog post for a week, twice a week for the next three, four weeks. Well, it's consistency. And part of the consistency is you getting your own voice, so to speak, is being able to get your own feel for how what you're looking for and what you're seeing. And I've seen so many times where I've heard it called newsjacking, where you see some trend in the news, in the business, or whatever niche you're in. So grab that and then write about that and bring your own thoughts to that. And so then that kind of helps you get that little bit of that momentum. But I think consistency is so key. Is that what you found as well?

Yes, exactly. And one way to be more consistent is to not try to do eight or ten different lead generation things. Just pick one or two or three that really fit your personality. So for some reason you chose to do several podcasts and you're disciplined about that. That's an example of something you've got to be disciplined. Right. If you don't release a podcast episode on the same, you know, whatever the frequency is, then nobody's going to listen. So, yeah, pick something that really fits your personality, where you can really dive, dig down and where you are excited about doing it. So for me, it's an insight piece every two weeks, it's a podcast and it's books every once in a while and speaking. And so I'm not going to mess with anything else because I don't have the time for it. Somebody else is probably starting lower on that lead generation ladder. So they might be doing some social media stuff, they might be doing a little bit of advertising, they might be doing some breakouts instead of keynotes so that you, we all have to start wherever we are and just slowly climb that ladder.

And I would venture to say using writing a blog post as an example, have a plan for that and have almost like an editorial calendar. Have I've said it a few times where what are the top 10 frequently asked questions that you get when you're talking to a prospect? And those are easy top 10. But what about, what about the ones that are next level, surface level or past surface level? So the should ask question. So what is a deeper one that if someone were to ask this question, then they would really be getting some depth into what you can offer them. So if you had 10, 15, 20 of those, and now you just write on each one of those separately and now those become, you know, almost like a digital breadcrumb trail, digital footprint. Because when you get those out there now people might be going, oh, I've got that question. That's interesting and I think that's a really interesting point. So do you have you found that some type of structure that way helps keep that consistency going?

Absolutely. So for each of the things I do, book, podcast, insight piece, position, paper, webinar, I have a separate schedule for sure. But the other thing too is like when I like your idea about the top 10 to get you started, that's a really great place to start. And Then when you want to move on to that, I think one of the keys there is to begin writing or speaking or whatever it is you're doing. And you have a clear point of view. Some experts are terrified of that. They don't want to say anything that might push somebody away. But the more you are an expert and the further you are on this path, the more you should want the people to read your stuff or listen to your stuff to say at the end, oh, I want to listen to him more than I did before, or I want to listen to him less than I did before. There needs to be a watershed moment at the end of each insight piece where they're drawn to you or they pushed away from you. That's what experts do. They take risks in terms of their. They have a point of view. Right?

Yeah, that's. That really is a good. Otherwise you're just like everybody else.

You're just like all the crap on LinkedIn. Like, it's just, you know, a hundred pieces every hour and like none of them are worth reading anymore.

Yeah, that's. That's an excellent point. So what's another point from the book that we can address?

One of them is how to act like an expert, which is kind of interesting. We confuse, I think, great customer service with acting like an expert. And experts sometimes wrap their expertise in great customer service and sometimes they don't. So here's an example of that. The best experts, the most expert experts, so to speak, are not as accessible as a lot of experts want to be. So, like having a little button on their website that says, sign up here for a 15 minute free call with me. Well, real experts are seldom doing that. They're seldom giving away their time, and they're definitely not available right then. So there has to be something about being an inaccessible expert, also being personable and human. That's one of the tips that I see people really struggling with. For sure.

That's a really good point. It's kind of like the red velvet rope. You know, you go by some new establishment and you see, you know, people can't just get in and you're wondering. It almost makes it more attractive. If your time is so available for everybody, then how valuable is that time or expertise or advice? That's a really, that's a really good point. So I think also, how to look like an expert. There's so many other things that tie into that from, you know, your web presence, your social media presence, all of these things. And then I think also, what are your thoughts on using, you know, once you get that momentum going and you have the writings in the blog post and the whatever interviews you've done, you've then got to use that strategically. You can't just sit back and think, you know, check the box, check the box. And now people are coming to me. That's not the way that it works.

No, it really doesn't. I don't know any expert, and I know quite a few of them. I don't know anybody that's just sitting there sort of like an elder would in the town square and everybody's lining up to talk with him or her. I don't know those people.

And you also have to constantly reinvent yourself. Like I'm 58 and I just released an entire new website yesterday and I'm dumping all kinds of things I've been doing and adding all kinds of other things. You have got to be reinventing yourself all the time because every day there's a thousand other experts that are wanting to eat your lunch. Right? I don't worry. I don't look in the back. I don't look behind me at those folks. But I do always look ahead and spend a lot of energy to reinvent myself because I want, for one thing, I want to always be learning. Right. So that it's exciting to have this mix of things that I always do that I'm really good at, but always be adding new things that challenge me and keep me interested as well.

Yeah, that's a really excellent point. It reminds me of Tony Robbins speaking, teaching of Kanai C A N I constant and never ending improvement. And otherwise, well, you just get left behind, you know, if you're not researching your market so that you can write, speak, you know, give your thoughts on that, you're missing out. And you might be still using a flip phone. Right?

Exactly. Yeah.

So what's, what's a couple mistakes that people can make when they start down this path? What are some things to watch out for?

One of them is to assume that it will be easier to land work than it really is. Okay. And so I urge people to save money before they launch a new career as an expert. Another is to feel pressure because they don't have the work that they thought they would and then make all sorts of compromises in terms of how they're charging.

Financial panic is the mother of terrible decisions around your positioning. And so it's okay from time to time to compromise on what you charge a given client as long as you understand that you are never going to Turn that client into a great one down the road. So you are intentionally wasting that opportunity because you need to eat, need to put food on the table, but you are aware of that and you are okay with that decision. Otherwise, I wish experts would have part time jobs that give them enough money to put food on the table and then they have this expertise on the side part time until it takes off completely where they're charging a lot of money. Because it's very difficult to rescue a client that you started off on the wrong foot with. That would. Those would be two mistakes I see pretty frequently.

Yeah, that really is. And yes, it's hard. It's not as easy as some would think to win business when you are positioning yourself as an expert, authority, influence, that kind of thing. But it's better than what you had before. And I think that's a big, big thing to keep in mind is what are your competitors doing or not doing. And I think that's an interesting thing too is to take look at some of your top competitors in the space you're in, what they're doing and if you are able to distance yourself. I've seen some people, you know, talk about social proof, you know, online reviews, and this one vertical I work in says, well, if I see my competitor that has, you know, 35 reviews on their business on Google, I want to make sure mine is 135, you know, because they want to just dwarf them. Or if I see someone has, you know, been on 10 podcast interviews, I want to be on 110. You've got to figure out what that competition is doing so that you can then surpass that and then that helps to put that gap there with competitive advantage.

Yeah, right. Another mistake that I see experts make is they keep solving the problems that come their way individually and they're not using each opportunity as a way to develop more ip. So when I get a unique problem come to me that maybe I haven't solved or seen in exactly this way, I don't get discouraged because it's going to take me more time. I love that opportunity because I'm going to stop and I'm going to solve this problem, but I'm going to solve it in a way that assumes that a lot of my clients are struggling with the same thing. And so I'm going to be able to reuse the solution that I'm developing for this client. So always use those new challenges as opportunities to develop new IP for yourself.

And you probably mean this, but it made me think that even from A simple question that comes in.

Maybe even an involved question, rather than hitting reply or calling that person back and answering that, maybe that becomes a piece of content that you use to educate your target audience. Because if this person had that question, so would other people. So maybe that becomes a podcast episode, maybe that becomes article or thought leadership piece. And then you tell that one person, you spurred me on to think about this and I put this together. But then other people that have it, you can give a brief answer and go, you know, I recently wrote about that. Let me shoot you the link to it, because here's my whatever piece. And I think that that really then elevates yourself into, rather than just being that question, answer, question, answer, it guides them to look to that expertise that you're developing.

Yeah, that's a great example. Because even just having had that developed already indicates to the client that you're an expert because you've already developed this answer for them. Right. Instead of just scrambling. So, yeah, that's a really great idea. And, and also the idea about using it to prompt you to use this in like a talk or a webcast or a podcast or something like that. Yeah, I have an Evernote file. Anytime I get an idea for some new content piece, I throw it in there. There's 300 ideas in there. There's another 60 ideas I've already pulled out, and I have the illustrations done for and I just need to write the articles. Absolutely. And then you're sitting on a plane and you have a content piece ready. You have a deadline coming up and you can scan this long list and say, oh, that one. Really, I'm really into that one. I'm engaged in writing for that.

So, yeah, yeah, that's an excellent point. So, hey, let's just wrap up with what's the best way people can reach out and pick up a copy of your book, the Business of Expertise? I just highly recommend it. It's amazing. It's awesome. So what's the best way they can do that?

Sure. So the microsite for the book is expertise is. Expertise is. And then my own website is davidcbaker.com.

Well, David, thank you so much for your time today. It was great talking to you again and thanks for all your expertise.

Thank you very much.

Mike, you've been listening to the Art of Authority podcast. Are you interested in building your authority positioning as the number one strategy to grow your business, brand and influence? Book your authority audit today. This seven point audit of your current authority position will uncover opportunities and show you how to be seen as a leading expert and authority your industry looks to. For advice, visit www.awarenesspositioningcoach.

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