The Art of Authority Podcast with Mike Saunders-Ian Altman - Selling with Authority and Integrity

Welcome to the Art of Authority podcast, bringing you interviews and episodes to help you radically optimize your authority and influence to become the go to expert in your field. Here's your host, authority positioning coach, Mike Saunders.

Hey guys, welcome back. This is Mike Saunders, the authority positioning coach and today we have with us international best selling author and keynote speaker, Ian or Altman. Ian, welcome to the program. Thanks for your time.

Mike, thanks for having me here.

Hey, I interviewed you last year on my podcast and I remember. If I remember correctly, isn't it true that you said if you just go to Google and put in business trends, your Forbes article is the, you know, the top one. Is that the term that you Google?

You know, I think if you search for business trends in just about any place in the world, it comes up. It depends on what mood Google is in that day. It'll come up as somewhere between one and three. It's been one for a long, long time and occasionally something new will pop up. But yeah, it stays up there pretty consistently.

1, 3, 4, 9 on the first page of Google for a basic term like that is huge. So that just tells us that you've got your finger on the pulse of business trends. So that's what I want to focus on today is selling with integrity. And the whole summit is authority and influence using your expertise and integrity. Be one of those in parentheses, integrity, influence. Because you can't have influence with that integrity. So speak a little bit about that selling with integrity and how that ties into really serving people the best.

Well, Mike, it's funny you mentioned that one of the comments I often hear from people is, wow, you almost never hear the term selling and integrity in the same sentence. In fact, you rarely hear it in the same book, let alone the same sentence. So they're not always thought of together. But especially when you're dealing with people who are subject matter experts or authorities, you can't undermine your credibility. Now, candidly, nobody should undermine their own credibility and not sell with integrity. But the idea of selling with integrity is something we talk about in same side selling as seeking out the fit. We refer to fit as finding impact together. So what it means is that we, when you're talking to a potential client, what you're trying to figure out is do they have a problem that I'm good at solving and if not, we just don't have a fit. And if they do have a problem I'm good at solving, then we have something worth discussing.

You know, it's interesting that I think a lot of salespeople would nod their head and say, yeah, that's true. Or, you know, I'm a coach and I need to sell my services. Yeah, that's true. I get that. But then when you get in the heat of the moment, it just seems like if there's a whiff of they'll write you a check or send you money, then it's like, let's do it. And the problem with that is, something I experienced a few years ago in my marketing agency, is you feel tempted and give in to that temptation of, oh, you need social media marketing. I could do that. Oh, you need text. I could do that. Oh, you need. And when I started eliminating all of that shiny object syndrome and focused on one thing, authority positioning, now all of a sudden, it just makes things clear for people. So my question with that is, yes, it sounds good to say you need to sell on the same side and if there's a problem you can solve, but how do you really position that to that prospect? Do you verbally say, now listen, let's just be clear here. I'm not going to ask for your credit card. I just want to learn a little bit more. And if there's not a fit, I know it sounds cliche to say this, but I'm just not going to recommend what I can do for you. But I do have some connections. Do you literally say things like that to have to set the stage in a conversation?

Yeah. There's a concept that I teach called disarming. And. And it's not some clever tactic that happens to be true. Like, for example, when I talk to organizations, someone wants me to keynote for an event, what I often say to them is, what are you trying to accomplish with your attendees? What are you trying to change? Because if I don't feel that I can do that, I'll recommend somebody else. The last thing I want to do is take a stage where I'm not going to deliver the results you need for your audience. And people say, okay. And halfway through the conversation, sometimes they're looking for something that I don't do. And I'll say, you know, I'm probably not the best person. And they usually say to me, oh, we just thought that was like a line. I'm actually not the right person. Here's the thing that people have to recognize. If you're trying to sell something to somebody and you're not perfectly suited to deliver that, it's going to end up in a train wreck anyhow. You're just avoiding the embarrassment. You're avoiding that disaster that both you and the client are going to experience. And here's the thing. And it's difficult if you're somebody who is, who really needs the business to walk away from something. But if you think to yourself, look, if I deliver a great result for somebody, it's going to come back tenfold. If I don't deliver a good result, the negative is going to come back 20 fold. So I just, I can never put myself in a position where I'm not going to. Going to deliver results for the client. And when that happens, all of a sudden you become more referable and you get more repeat business and those people become raving fans.

I think it's really interesting when someone makes a statement like that because it sounds like one of those sound bite statements and. Oh, sure, sure. But in real life, I don't know. But I will tell you that just about six months ago, I had that happen where I had a connection on Facebook. We connected on the phone. He says, here's what I need. And I listened. And I said, listen what I have what you called me about.

I can do it. But you just described all of your team, all of your things that they do, and they can do exactly what I do. There's zero need for me at all. And he's like, wow, I appreciate that. About three days later, I get another message, you know, mike, meet Matt. Matt, meet Mike. And this guy had made a connection and a referral to me and that turned into business and there was no, there was no deal. If I turn this down, you must. It was just, it just wasn't a fit. And so that definitely happens. And I'm sure people watching and listening to this can say, yeah, yeah, I've got an example too. So I love when, when people can kind of own that and then see it actually happen in real life. But do you think that something, what you said with, you know, well, if you take on a client, you really shouldn't, and then something goes a little sideways. It just feels so bad and it's. Do you feel that someone has to go through that at least once to kind of go. To have that settled down in their system? And then the next time they go, all right, I'm not doing that anymore.

Well, I hope they don't have to.

Well, right.

I think if your client can see that you are always looking out for their best interest, then quickly what happens is your trust level goes through the roof and then they contact you for everything. I'll give you an example of something that people Will probably scratch their head and say, why would you ever do that? I had a client who I had done a keynote for in the last year. They called me up and said, oh, we have this other event. We'd love for you to come speak there. And I said, well, so what's the difference in the audience? Oh, same audience. I said, okay, what are we trying to accomplish? Well, just, you know, same kind of stuff. We just want them to hear it again. And I said, okay, would you be open to hearing from somebody else? And then the next time you have an event? I'm happy to come in, but I think your audience may actually be better served by hearing from multiple people rather than just from hearing from me and there's somebody else I know who's a phenomenal speaker. Similar philosophy, but some different tactics that I think they would probably respond well to. Well, the funny part is that someone listening right now is going to say, oh, but you walked away from that business. And so the client ended up engaging this other person. They did an amazing job. And then after the event, the client called them and said, wow, that was amazing. So can we lay out a plan together over the next few years and what we should do together? Because what they realize is, hey, look, he's not interested in just what goes into his wallet. He's looking at results for us.

Yeah. 30,000 level.

Yeah. And so few resources and vendors actually are looking out for the client's best interest that when you do it, the client is just trying to figure out what other excuses do we have for doing business with this person? Because they actually are putting our needs ahead of their own.

How long ago was that, by the way?

So this was. I did a keynote for them probably in the first half of last year, and then I referred them to this other person in December, and then January, they contacted me and said, what are we going to do over the next few years? And candidly, we've laid out a whole plan and involves me, this other person. And then as we've been talking to them, they said, oh, what about this other topic? Can you guys address that? We could, but here's a third person who'd be great for that. Now, the funny part is that client used to just canvas the market to see who was going to come speak for their events. And now they make one phone call, which is to me, and say, who should we have speak at our event?

Well, the reason I asked the question about timing and you kind of touched on it a little bit, has this other person you referred the Other speaker you referred to, have you had any conversation with them to kind of do a little back talk and say, listen, this is now turned into something where we all are going to benefit moving forward. And now potentially that speaker can do the same thing too, if it comes up for them. And it could come back with, you know, they do a deal and then they refer to you, and then you do a deal and you refer to them. And it could be something where it becomes this team approach.

Well, you know what, you need to partner with people where you already have a meeting in the mind. So this is a guy. I don't know if you know Phil Jones, but Phil and I are good friends. Phil wrote a book called exactly what to Say. And I would say get exactly what to say even before you get same side selling. So exactly what to say you can read in about a half hour. It's got 20 to 25 different little phrases that pivot conversations with clients. He's also a high integrity based guy.

We very often will bring each other into our respective accounts. Now, people who are protective or territorial, that might seem like a totally foreign concept, but the reality is that now the client, I know the client's either going to be working with me or working with Phil. And I know that we both follow this integrity based framework. I know that we share similar philosophies even though we have different tactics and specific approaches. So the client is going to get this one plus one equals three.

Yeah. And the thing is, Phil and I, it's not a quid pro quo. I don't make money off of him, he doesn't make money off of me. We just know that our clients are better off when they work with both of us than when they only work with one of us.

It's just a mindset. It's just a giving serving. It's like, you know, Bob Berg and David Mann's book Go Giver. It's that in action. And I think a lot of people hear that and go, ooh, I'm going to try that. And they wait two seconds later and wait for it to come back. And that's the wrong approach. You need to do it because it's the right thing to do and then just let it go. You know, cast your bread upon the water and it'll come back. You don't do it because you want that return right away. I think that's such a neat takeaway and a writer downer for people to keep in mind. So I think that's awesome. You know, another thing that you say is serve your community, not just your buyers. And to me, that says, again, serving and giving for the purpose of kind of laying the groundwork because they might turn into buyers one day. But if you only focus on buyers, just like the old school realtors that would call cold call, do you want to sell your house? No. Do you want to sell your house?

No.

And they would go until someone said yes. Well, what about the people that said no? They might be ready in 90 days if you just had a conversation with them.

Well, and so the interesting thing is if we stick with that realtor metaphor, so the realtor who says, do you want to sell your house? Do you want to sell your house? You say, no. And you're like, oh, here's the person who's always calling me if I want to sell my house. If instead, if you say, so, gee, when you become an empty nester, what options are available to you? And you start creating value for that. For anybody who owns a home, right? At which point does it make sense? Should you replace your roof or shouldn't you? Before you sell your house.

When should you replace your windows and when shouldn't you? What's a good investment for resale and what isn't? Guess what? The person who does a home renovation now is going to sell in five years. If you give them good guidance, you're the person they trust five years later when they're ready to sell their home. But if you're the person just says, are you looking to sell your house? No. The audience can see, oh, you're in it for the short term, not the long term.

Right.

So I don't really need you.

Again, it sounds so cliche to say it's the relationship, it's the giving and serving. But back in the day, Chet Holmes wrote in the ultimate sales machine, that exact thing. He said about 90% of people aren't ready to do whatever you want them to do now, but they will be, or a lot of them will be in six months. So educate, stay in touch, give value, serve. Because the guy that's going buy now, coupon, discount, deadline there, you know, people are wanting to stay away from them. But the guy that's given some good information about the roof and the windows, they're like, hey, you know, you were saying, so we are looking to move now, what should we consider? And they trust you. So I think that giving of content, because now we pull in content marketing, if you want to call it a thing. But you know, all of these phrases to me are just let's just help people out, do the right thing, educate people, learn yourself about the industry so that you can interact with your target audience and, you know, pop, pop, pop. Once in a while, here will be a buyer, here will be a buyer. But your audience and your tribe realize that you are go to resource.

Yeah. And nowhere is this more evident than in the world of LinkedIn. We've all had the situation where we connect to somebody on LinkedIn and a nanosecond after you accept their connection, they're pitching you something. Oh, I'm the best at this and this and this and that. So I want to set up a time to speak with you about what I'm selling. Yeah, well, could you imagine in the dating world if you met somebody and said, hey, you know what? So you initially meet somebody and right away you say, you know, I think I'd like to sleep with you. I'd like to set up a time so I can talk about me, about kids.

What baby names do you like?

What exactly? What was your last name again? Exactly. I mean, it's crazy. But instead, if the people on LinkedIn who say, look, here are the type of people that I help, I'd love to understand the type of people you help so that maybe I can connect you to someone in my network who needs what you do and vice versa, then the other person says, you know what? Actually I need what you just described. Oh, fancy that. Amazing. But the thing is that it's the, you know, always be closing, old school metaphor for sales just doesn't work anymore.

But people still, I mean, but people still think it does. But guess what? That works to people that like us, let's say that use that good technique. It works to our advantage because our competition still hangs on to that old way and our prospects see us as different. Good. Let every, let the, let the masses still do that. Because if we choose or our listeners or watchers here to this interview choose, you know, I'm going to say to you watching do these things because it will set you apart right now. And your competition that's calling your same prospect, they feel that they might not even consciously say, Ian did this, but Fred did that. I'm choosing. They just feel something different. Like, man alive, that guy was annoying, but man. So I think that it's kind of like people that don't return phone calls. All right, Bad on them, but good on you when you do because it just sets you apart.

Well. And in fact, Mike, one of the things for people to think about is this is that.

If you think about the buyer, seller interaction as a race and the initial contact is a starting block, where we as sellers celebrate is at the finish line, which we often consider the sale, the contract, maybe it's getting paid, all those sorts of things. But the challenge is if you ask your client what they consider the finish line, the client would say, well, it's the results that I was buying into. And what happens is what most people don't do is they don't ask the client, well, what would make this successful? What can we measure to know that we're successful? And merely by doing that, you will find that your clients are willing to spend more with you than with somebody else, because you're focused on the same thing they are, which is the results rather than the contract.

You know, that's kind of goes back to what you said a minute ago about focusing on the problem that you solve. And if you don't, like, how many times do we watch Shark Tank? And one of the sharks goes, what's the problem here? What are we solving? Because otherwise it's not gonna. It's just gonna fall on, you know, deaf ears. So when you do have that specific solution to that specific problem and you can approach it with this giving and serving and learning and provid.

I think that that becomes the perfect storm.

Right?

And then the integrity and the honesty and the authenticity shines through and, you know, kind of tying it all in together in your. I wrote down this too. Subject matters experts open doors. In your 2018 Trends. Subject matter experts open doors. So when you have all of that stuff we just mentioned put into place, and then now you add in this layer of being that subject matter experts, that does open up a door for all of that other stuff to happen.

Absolutely. See, if you think about it, in the world of quote selling, there are three Personas. So there's an order taker, there's a salesperson, and there's a subject matter expert. The order taker is the person who you say, I need three of these. Two of those, how much is it? And when are you going to deliver it? The salesperson believes their job is to sell whatever they have to sell, whether the client needs it or not. And the subject matter expert is the person the client would actually be willing to spend money to meet with, if that's what it took. So the order taker, where they haven't already been replaced by Amazon, they will be choice between the salesperson and the subject matter expert. And it doesn't matter which one you think you are what you have to ask yourself is, when you're the customer, who do you want to deal with? The salesperson or the subject matter expert? So if you can bring expertise to somebody that says, gee, here's some of the trends I'm seeing in your space, and I'd love to talk to you about how you're dealing with those and how we see other people dealing with them, you've got an opportunity for a meeting. If you call up to say, hey, I'd love to talk to you about how much of my stuff you can buy, you're not going to get a.

Lot of meetings or this deadline for my stuff with a discount that expires on. And you're. And they're going, what? So here's a question. Let's say that you take that approach, and let's say that before you take that approach, you have built out some good content based on the buyer's journey from your previous buyers. And you know that they have this question, this problem, you have this solution. They typically have these, you know, needs, and you create some content, whatever that might be. You know, sure, you could write the book on it, but maybe you just produce some podcast episode interviews or you did some blog posts, whatever those things are. And now when you're reaching out to people for that initial meeting, you go, hey, you know what? That meeting we're going to have next week, I'm going to shoot you a quick email here with a couple links. I was recently interviewed on this podcast and we touched on some of those same questions you just asked. So we're going to go deeper in the meeting, but I just thought I'd send that to you. Okay, great. No problem. So now you're pre framing that meeting as you're the authority and expert, because when you get there, they might not have listened to every syllable of that interview you sent them or read every word of that whatever, but the fact that you were like, oh, you. You sent me a Forbes article.

Wow.

Now you walk in as that expert and they have a conversation with you.

Yeah. And I realized that not everybody who's listening has a column in Inc. And Forbes. So I have a benefit in that I'm usually sending them to one of those sources. But candidly, it doesn't even have to be. I mean, it's. You know, I had a post on.

I've got a program called the Same side Selling Academy, and we had a video in there talking about how to position yourself against the competition. And I was talking to somebody who said, well, we're having these competitive issues. And I said, great, we're going to be talking tomorrow. I just posted this in the same side selling academy. It's totally free. You may want to check it out. So when the person called the following day, she said, you know, I watched that thing. It was exactly what I needed to learn. And you know, people had said you had expertise in this area, but wow, it was fantastic. So how do we engage you? And that was it. But it was like rather than me trying to re articulate what I already done in a webinar, I just was able to share with her an eight minute video that gave her everything she needed to know.

Well, I think I need to take that snippet out and just frame it or put it in lights because I've said that frequently and other people that I've interviewed, other experts, we've touched on this and I think this is a missing piece in someone's business development. They feel like, let me run some Facebook ads, let me run some this and you know, push marketing. Well, if you can take those main questions and those main pain points and those main deliverables and obstacles you help your target audience solve and you create these things. And sure, it could be on Inc. And Forbes and all those, but until you get that level, do a YouTube video and put it on your whatever. But if you can have those snippets and use them in your sales process, business development process, and you don't send 19 links to one person just. But just in conversation you go, oh, you know what? I've got episode number nine and 16 that address those same things. Let me send them to you. And now you're not having to blah on the phone or in person with them or just send a stock email response. You're sending some good content. So boy, that. And the other word that ties in there is evergreen. You do that once. And boy, you and your sales team and your admin staff, they don't need to remember and be trained on, you know, role playing. All they got to go is, oh, when someone asks this, you know, send them episode 16.

Yeah, exactly. And here's the thing. You could spend an eternity trying to train your admin and salespeople to get that message right. But I can tell you that you had a much greater likelihood of teaching them how to send that link than you do getting them to perfect the message. Yep.

Because, oh yeah, they'll leave in six months or two years later. They moved on to something and you got to train somebody else or whatever. But you, you're the brand, you're your. Your person. So I think that is another implementable, writer, downer, practical, tactical thing that our watchers need to realize. Keep it simple. Think of three things. Think of three things that you really would want to communicate to your prospect when they're making a decision to buy from you, whatever it is. And everybody is in sales. If you own your business, you're a coach, consultant, author, entrepreneur, you're selling something. What are those three things that people need to really get down into their understanding? Put out a piece of content. Go find some podcast to get interviewed on and talk about that one thing. You know, get some. Some piece of content out there so you can use it. So I think that is massive. Another thing that you touch on is being able to, you know, I kind of want to go back to that. Serving the community, not just the buyers, because it kind of drops those breadcrumb trails to the people in advance of them even realizing they have that need. So I think that that's a really big thing that people need to understand.

Yeah. And I forget which brand it is. And Jay Baer talks about this in his book Utility, where the idea is creating stuff of value. And I think it's Columbia Outfitters or, you know, or Columbia Outerwear has an app that is all about how to tie knots. So if you're an outdoors person and you're out, you need a certain type of knot. Here's how to tie it. And there's an app that shows you how to do all that. Well, you might believe that they sell rope and they don't. They don't sell any rope, but they know that their audience is going to care about that. They're getting reinforced by their brand. They're being valuable to their audience, and the audience rewards them with loyalty. So, for example, I look at it on, for example, the same side selling Academy that I have, people are like, oh, you could monetize that. You could charge a fortune. I'm like, yeah, but serving the people who can't necessarily spend the money today. And it doesn't mean that we won't have more advanced offerings that people can pay for at some point in the future. But it wasn't, well, let's wait, and then we'll charge people. It's, look, just serve this community. It's good for my clients. When I give a keynote, people will often say, hey, you know, so what does it cost to sign our 500 people up for the same size selling Academy? Nothing. They can just join. Wow, really yeah. Now, in the future, there's going to be all sorts of different pieces of curriculum up there that'll be a paid for service. But the interaction and the ongoing reinforcement doesn't cost anything. And I'm just building a community of like minded people and, you know, they all like to hang out with each other and someone will sometimes post, hey, I'm running to this challenge, so Ian, what should I do? And they'll get an answer from someone else who had the same problem, who I already helped them with. And they say, oh, here's the way I did it. It worked great. And now the community serving themselves. It's awesome. I mean, it's great for me to see because I just get to chime in and say, by the way, what Tim said is dead on. Right?

Yeah, yeah, what he said, right?

Yeah.

That's really interesting. So here's something. When you were explaining the not app, I thought of something else and it's a little bit unique because I'm sure we can Google it to confirm it. But I remember this social media campaign that Charmin did, the toilet paper. They created an app for people that were on a trip, a road trip to find the cleanest bathrooms around in restaurants. That's awesome because that's a concern.

Right?

So if you've got that, now that's something worthy of being, like Seth Godin says, worthy being remarked about. So that's remarkable.

But.

But it's selling toilet paper.

Right.

But it's interesting and it's funny and hey, I'm in South Dakota. Where's a clean bathroom? Oh, right there.

Good.

So what can we do you do as a, as a business owner, entrepreneur? And what do your clients and prospects and target audience need in a practical sense that would be similar to what you do so that maybe you don't need to go build an app. But what would be something that they can go, ooh, that's practical, and then they really appreciate your brand and you for bringing that to them and who knows what door that could open up.

Absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, for starters, I'm thinking about this Charmin app now and you know, I'm wondering like, instead, instead of swiping right or left, I guess you leap right or left. Right.

Idea. If you've got someone who's an executive coach, they might be thinking about, well, how do I sell more coaching? And instead, what you want to think about is what are the challenges your clients face? So it's, hey, what are some things you can do when you've got great team members, but they're not all rowing in the same direction. Here's some content to give you ideas on how to do that. Well, the people who need executive coaching and don't necessarily realize it are facing that problem. They don't know they need coaching yet.

But that's an aha moment. And they go, oh, my word. What do you do when one of your team members come in and say their teenage son is on drugs? And well, that doesn't have things to do with executive coaching. But if there is a teachable moment there and they get that content from you or whatever the case is. But yeah, you need to think about what are those trigger moments that might be the precursor to them needing what you do and they don't even realize it. And it really is ninja under the radar if you think about it.

But.

But that takes it to a deeper level of serving. That's not saying when you need an executive coach, what are the seven things to choose from? They run from that.

Exactly.

Some of those things that are helpful and actionable, that's interesting to them.

In fact, one of the things to be careful of, and my good friend Marcus Sheridan talks about this a fair amount, is when you're providing that valuable content, don't conclude with. And to learn more about my executive coaching services, contact us. Just guess what, they're reading it on your site. Yeah.

End up with your friend Mike.

If they can't figure out how to reach you at that point, they're too stupid to be a client.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I interviewed Marcus for this summit as well, and he had some excellent things to say. I mean, he's. In fact, you know how when you think about a certain topic, and this is another neat point for people to keep in mind, we need to present our products and services in a way that is memorable. But for me personally, I came to understand the content marketing world through Marcus, through his podcast and through his work out there. So I'm certain he was not the leader of the movement back in the day, but that always stuck with me. So when I was putting the summit together, I'm like, ooh, I want to get Marcus. And we just had a great talk. So you're exactly, exactly right. People need to realize that there's stuff out there that happens before they even realize they have a need. And I do a presentation very frequently where it shows this. You know, here's the sales cycle in the old days, suspect, prospect, you know, answering objections, all these things. But now there's this there's the slide show this calm, and then they show a trigger event. And then people start searching for, you know, what is the. What's going on? And the way I explain it is, you know, hey, you go for a run every other day and you're fine. And then one day you come home and you're, you know, whatever, your shin hurts. And so you Google around, man, my shin hurts all of a sudden. Well, you're not Googling for best running shoes, but what if a running company had put an article out or a podcast out that says, hey, you know, when you run and your shin starts hurting all of a sudden, you know, here's this interview on, and here's our sale. The point is, you didn't Google buy shoes. You googled my shins hurt after a run. But that could lead you to be thinking toward that. What is it in your business that people can be, you know, thinking of before? Oh, I need to make a buying decision. What are some of those precursors? I think that's a big, big piece of research.

And if you think about this, if the article you got to. Or the content you got to said, oh, if your shins hurt, you should buy our shoes, then you're going to be like, oh, that was just clickbait and advertorial. But instead, if they said, well, so here are three of the causes of why your shins could be hurting. It could be this, it could be this, it could be your shoes. So for people that have this problem where it ends up being the shoes, most of the people find that our shoes solve that problem, but not everybody. Yep. So here's some different alternatives. And by the way, if you try our shoes and your shins still hurt, send them back to us and we'll refund the money.

Right.

If you do that, they'd probably convert 80% of people hit the page.

Yeah. Because you're teaching, you're not pushing. You're showing your competition. You're giving a guarantee. You're being.

You're removing risk. Yeah.

Which is how Zappos really became. I mean, who in the world would buy shoes online? Well, when you have free shipping both ways, if it doesn't fit, boy removes that risk.

That's.

That's really huge.

Well, and then they take it to the next level, which is. Oh, so you're not sure which size you need. We'll send you three sizes. You pick the. You pick the one you want and send back the other two. Yeah, you can do that. And guess what? So people. People's assumption is, oh, well, Zappos must sell their shoes at a discount. No, they sell full retail. Nobody sells shoes at full retails except for Zappos. They sell more of them than anybody else online. It's crazy.

Well, and while we're talking about Zappos, one of the classes I teach at a university, we were talking about this same topic, and I did some research, and I found that Zappos, they're known for their culture, right? Well, they teach their customer service reps. You. You engage with the people calling in. You know, if they need something, you know, you just engage with them. It does. You don't have a time limit. And if I remember correctly, it was either three hours or five hours, something just mega long, where this customer service rep talked from everything from soup to nuts, and this person was just blown away, Right? And then. And again, it just was something where you normally, like, churn and burn, churn and burn. But they're looking at things that are way beyond making that sale. And when you can do that in your business, you're known for someone that is that resource, and people feel comfortable coming to. And then, yeah, the sale can get made. Maybe it doesn't, but you're doing the right thing.

Yeah, Zappos has got so many great stories, and it's that B2C space a little bit different than people who sell in the B2B world, but still, it's that notion of, if you understand. We often use this concept that a buddy of mine, Bob London, coined called the elevator rant. And the idea is, what would your ideal client be complaining about or ranting about that you're good at solving? And if you understand those, then what happens is you use a model that we talk about in same side selling. We call the same side pitch, which is entice, Disarm, and Discover. So you entice by sharing problems that you solve with dramatic results. Then you disarm the notion that you're just there to sell something by acknowledging that not everyone's a good fit for you. And then you trigger the discovery phase. So if you knew that, for example, if someone's an executive coach and the biggest problem they solve for people is helping to get their teams aligned, well, that's an outcome. But the symptom or the rant is, man, my people are working their tail off. They're just not getting anything done. So the executive coach using entice, disarm, and discover would say to people, well, so my clients come to me, usually CEOs, because they've got amazing people on their team and, and they're all working hard. They're just not accomplishing what the business is trying to accomplish. Or they've got different people where they're just not seeing eye to eye. So there's a lot of tension on the team and each one's pointing fingers at the other one, which means they're not getting things accomplished. Or the CEO feels like they're babysitting people instead of actually getting things done. And for the right organizations, they tell us we solve those things and life gets way better. But I don't even, you know, everyone we talk to isn't a good fit for that. I don't yet know if we can help you, but if that's something you're facing, I'm happy to learn more to see if we can help. And that way you start by focusing on the problems rather than focusing on the outcomes. Yeah.

Love it. Hey, well, thanks a million. Free time. We could go on and on and on, but I want to wrap up with how can people reach out and pick up a copy of your book and engage with you?

You know what, the easiest place to find me is@ianaultman.com so it's I a n a l t man.com or on Twitter it's ianaultman. Connect to me on LinkedIn. Any questions people have, any way I can help, just let me know. Always there.

Thanks a million for your time.

You bet. Thanks, Mike. Take care.

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