Menopause Is Not the End: How to Prepare Your Body to Thrive in Midlife

Today we are chatting with Lisa Jaden, the founder and host of Menopositive, bringing positive and proactive approaches to managing hormone shifts. She has a fascinating backstory that I don't want to touch on. I'll let her talk about it during the interview, but she is truly changing the narrative on women, women's perspective, our viewpoint, our stance. on menopause and how we're experiencing it. Let's dig in.

I am really— honestly, Lisa, thank you for being here today. I'm really excited to just chat with you. I want to go down the rabbit holes of your story. You're such a— you have an incredibly inspiring one. So thank you for taking the time and being here today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for our conversation.

So for listeners who maybe don't know a whole lot about you and your journey and your story, I would love for you to tell us a little bit of a background because it's incredibly inspiring and kind of what led you ultimately to become an advocate and a force for women and develop Menopositive. So tell me everything.

Well, I started my career as a dancer and a performer, so very in touch with my body. And then I moved into PR and marketing. I like to say to people that I, I've built a career making brands and people famous. I was really lucky. I helped build Red with Bono and Bobby Shriver. I've worked with David Beckham. I've had a wonderful, wonderful career, but The red line that connects all of it is building stories, you know, building or changing narratives. And when I was going through perimenopause and menopause, and I looked at what society and culture was telling me how I should be feeling, I wasn't recognizing that. It was all doom and gloom and, oh, it's like the end. And I'm like, well, that hasn't been my experience, and nor do I want that for, for any other woman. So I decided just to take my magic powers and kind of come back to the body and try to change the conversation around menopause. And that's how Menopositive started.

I absolutely love it. And I know you do a lot of interviews. You talk with so many experts, clinicians, elite athletes, whoever it is. Are there any themes that you've picked up, any kind of consistent through lines in stories And advice that you've gathered?

Yeah. You know what? No expert talks about decline. I think it's a myth we've all been sold. And I think every single, you know, one of them believes a few of the same things, whether you're coming at it from Chinese medicine or regular allopathic medicine, whether you are in longevity medicine or you are in breathwork, you know, from all of these Modalities, there are 2 things that ring true. First, as you know, and your listeners know, hormones don't work in isolation, right? They're touching every single part of our body, right? And on our insides, our brain and our gut and our metabolism and our muscle and our joints. And the other thing is that the earlier that you invest in your health, then the more options you're going to have later in life. And there's 6,000 women enter menopause every day in the US. You know, we're gonna spend almost half of our lives in menopause. I, I want women living those lives well and healthy. And that's why I think you can start preparing your body. The biggest message that I get from all of the experts that I speak to is not only are all these symptoms manageable, but some of them can be mitigated. And if you prepare your body, then you can have a more positive menopause experience.

I agree. And I'm in the business of women too. Women are my people. Yes, we see men at Modern Thyroid Clinic, but 98% of our patients are women. And I'll tell you, hormone decline, hormone issues start so much earlier than I think medicine accounts for. I see it Definitely in 40+, 30+. I see it in people's 20s, especially when you layer in a thyroid problem. Just like you said, they don't operate in isolation. Thyroid issues lead to hormone issues. And I think addressing them in each era of our lives is so incredibly powerful. And I love that you're advocating for, look, life doesn't have to look this certain way because that's what we've been told. Especially, I feel like leading up to this moment in the world of hormone replacement, right? We've been told it's bad, it's horrible, don't do it, it's not safe, it'll kill you. And now we're finally changing that conversation. And I love that we're advocating, like, starting early, I think, is absolutely key too.

And, you know, it's really interesting. We've been doing a number of live events, and even as, you know, we all track, you know, who's listening to our podcast, what age they are, you know, the demographics, psychographics, And as I've been doing the show over the last 2 years, the audience is getting younger. It's really interesting. You know, the last event I had, you know, I usually say, you know, put up your hand if you're this old, put up your hand if there's— and I started at like 35, and then there was a bunch of people in the room that hadn't put their hand up. And I'm like, oh gosh, who here is under 35? And then I was like, who here is under 30? A third of the room was under the age of 30.

Wow.

And then as the show has gone on, you know, I just did a look the other day. The number, the amount of my audience that is now under 35, like from 25 to 35, is growing. And I think young women today, they are tracking their periods on apps. We have so many new tools and things, the Oura Rings or the Whoop bands. We're so much more in touch with our body that I think there is a lot of hope for that younger generation that's coming through. who will know how to take control of their health and be so in touch with listening to their body.

Yeah, I agree. I really agree. I think it'll be a different experience for them, especially from a hormone perspective. I hope so badly it's also a different experience for them from a thyroid perspective. We'll see. The jury's still out on that. We still have more work to do, but darn it, we're going to get there for sure. Yeah.

Well, I think I was listening to one of your shows and one of your recent episodes, and You know, just the story of autoimmune diseases, right? The rise in autoimmune disease and how they are coming on younger and younger. And we are seeing women enter perimenopause younger and younger too because of so many of the environmental factors that we're facing today that, and that young people are facing today that our grandparents weren't. So you're right, there is another watch out there.

And I, I think we see similar women or similar patterns. And I want you to tell me what your perspective is on a lot of my patients too are like, They're really motivated, they're really driven, they're really passionate women that, in my experience, by the time they show up to see us, have a slew of excuses as to why they feel the way that they do. But it's always like their fault. It's always like, well— or it's like, oh, I'm a mom, or it's something that they can try to take ownership of. Without really being able to change the propagator of what's creating these feelings of fatigue and exhaustion and flat mood and brain fog. Tell me if you see a correlation with high women and having those symptoms and what that looks like for you.

So I think whether you're the CEO of your household or you're, you know, the CEO of a big business, we're usually number 3, 4, or 5 on the list of priorities. I think that's one way to look at it. I was like most women, you know, I had my— not— this isn't necessarily similar, but I had my daughter at 39. I had a big job managing a life. And then in my 40s, things started changing. But I was, like I said, third, fourth, fifth. I think you have to know that you deserve to be healthy and you have to believe that you deserve to be healthy. Because it's, it's so common that we're putting everybody before us. And that's what's so interesting about midlife. It can really become an awakening. I hate that word, but this moment where we, we don't have to look after other people and we can start looking after ourselves. So our 40s, 50s, 60s could actually end up being some of the healthiest times of our lives, which I think is really interesting. But nobody is talking about perfection. We're just talking about preparation. And I think if women can just start where they are, then that is a big step in the right direction, right? Like, if you can cook one more vegetable at dinner instead of one, that's one step in the right direction. If you want to do some lunges while you're washing the dishes, that's one step in the right direction. But yeah, you have to believe that you deserve it and know that you're worth it and know that on the other side of it is something Really amazing.

It really is. And I love the idea of the micro changes, right? I'm reading or rereading Atomic Habits right now. And it was fascinating. I was listening this morning and he said a plane leaving, I forget, I think it was LA headed to New York. If they deviate 3%, they end up at Washington, DC, like 3% deviation of where the direction they should go. And he's like, look, everything in life, these little micro atomic habits that you have. Even if they're tiny, they can change your whole trajectory when they compound over time. And I love the idea of so many women, I see this too, they want to do all the things. They want to do everything right. And then if they don't do everything right, they don't want to do it. And the reality is, look, tiny little things that you can consistently do. I love green juice. Green juice is a great way to flood your body with micronutrients, and you don't even really have to do A whole lot if you go pick it up from somewhere local. All those little habits they do, they compound. And you're right, women deserve it. Like, we deserve it. And I think where we don't recognize it is whatever investment we make in ourselves, it allows us to show up for our kids better. It allows us to show up 100% better.

Yeah, 100%. And I think hot flashes and night sweats get a lot of the PR, but there is so much around mood, Right. Libido. I know you like— these are some of the very similar symptoms, right, to many thyroid diseases. I mean, I have Hashimoto's, so sometimes you don't know what you're dealing with. But I think if one of the things, the biggest things I learned from Hashimoto's was to be a bit more curious and to listen to my body. And it's really interesting because I find whether it's a thyroid disease or perimenopause or any other illness, Your body is sending you signals, right? Your body's just telling you something. So if you can be more curious and listen more and trust yourself, right? You know your body. I think we, we've outsourced a lot of our— how we're feeling to other people. And I think if we would just take a little bit more time to listen deep inside, we know exactly what we need to do and where we're going.

I agree. And I think, again, it's We just push through and go on to the next thing so much of the time. And we're like, well, this is my new normal. And then you reduce in function for your new normal over and over and over again, and you end up in an entirely different existence than you're meant to or you deserve to.

Absolutely.

But, you know, I just wanted to build on what you were saying earlier too, because I've talked to the biohackers, I've talked to the longevity experts, you know, everything from ancient wisdom to longevity medicine. I talked to all of them. And what it boils down to as well is the basics, the free stuff. Move your body, eat well, and sleep. But you and I know, and everybody listening to this show knows, it's actually not easy. You know, you were talking about reading Atomic Habits. I was speaking to Dr. Jessica Shepherd one time and she said, oh my gosh, isn't she great? She's like, behavioral change is the hardest thing. And that's why, you know, how we started talking about the, you know, the micro changes that we can make. But I know this isn't easy. None of this is easy. But you know what, McCall? I think we can do hard things. Oh, I know women can do hard things.

Especially if your thyroid's sorted out, you can do a lot of hard things. So it's another great place to start.

Yeah.

Get the foundations. Get the foundation. But I find so many of those things like your nutrition, your gut, and your get your body into a, like, a foundational place, then, then all the medication or all the supplements will work even better and you may need less. I don't know if you have a similar view to that or not.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely you can prevent further constant increases. You said that we should start to prepare for menopause earlier. I love that idea. I want you to tell me what you mean by that. Yeah.

Well, I think we prepare for pregnancy, we prepare for retirement. We prepare for a marathon. This is one of the biggest biological transitions of our life. Why are we showing up to it not prepared? Right? And I think it's because we've been taught to wait for symptoms. And I think that's backwards, right?

Mm-hmm.

You know, menopause is not a choice. We are all gonna go through it, but how we experience it, it is a choice. And I'm not suggesting to women— or what I am suggesting is instead of waiting and saying, oh, there's something wrong with my body, instead maybe they should say, you know, something like, oh, how can I prepare my body for a more positive menopause experience? You know, so I don't have my mother's menopause, for example, because we do still have that whole generation of women from the Women's Health Initiative study that Like kind of a lost generation. Some of us, including myself, you know, you kind of have the baggage of it because I've grown up with, you know, the stories around it. But I think changing that question from how can I manage or manage these symptoms to how can I prepare my body, that can change everything.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And tell me some of your favorite ways for people that when they think about what that means to prepare their body. Tell us some of your favorite ways that women can do that.

So 2 things that really changed it for me, what I know now that I didn't know then, was how strength training and nutrition were going to be my secret weapons.

Yeah, absolutely.

I went into— I told you my body was changing, right? My body was changing, and I kind of started looking into perimenopause and menopause, like Purely for aesthetic reasons. I was like, I just want to get back in a bikini again. I mean, that was really how I started it, right? You're kind of like women, and that's where you start. You start seeing it in your skin. So you're like, how can I protect my beauty? So I started— I'd always moved, as I told you, I was a dancer. So I kind of always had movement in my life. But life gets in the way, right? And you're working and you're managing kids or aging parents. But then I made me a priority. And I started— I changed my workout into strength training. I really moved into a clean diet and started to understand food more— protein, even, you know, healthy carbs type of thing. And gosh, just those 2 switches helped improve my mood. They helped improve my sleep, right? They not only did they improve my body, they— my mindset changed as well. You know, the strength training pushed me to do things I never thought I would be able to do. And when I would leave the gym, I was like, if I can do that, I can handle my 12-year-old at home. I do now. Yeah, you do now. But my mindset shifted as well. And, you know, it's really interesting because there is a lot of research that supports a positive mindset during these transitions. I think, again, it was Jessica Shepherd who shared that, you know, a negative mindset around menopause correlates to worse symptoms, especially at work. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah.

Really, really interesting. So I was gifted with a glass half full mentality, and it can be really annoying to people sometimes because I got a lot of jazz hands sometimes. You're so cute. But now I realize it's a gift. And, you know, like I've said already, though, these small things like lifting— it could be lifting your child, lifting some soup cans. During COVID I was lifting, you know, paint cans and things like that. But those were 2 mega, mega interventions that I think and I believe changed the trajectory of my menopause experience.

I love that. And I think with strength training too, It's always, well, I'll start that later. I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it next year. And what I think people are missing is, look, every year that you wait, it's harder to build muscle mass, especially in these vulnerable years of midlife and perimenopause, certainly into menopause, it's even much, much harder. And so, I think that foundation you build now sets you up to be more resilient. It literally does.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's like putting money in the bank though, right? Right. Like the more you put in, then the more you can have later. And but in general, like you just said, the return on investment gets less and less the longer you wait. And when I talk about strength training, I'm like, you know, a hot flash won't kill you, but a hip fracture will.

Right.

So, you know, if you fall down and break your hip in your 70s, there's— I think it's a 50% chance that you will not go back to your home. And I can't remember, and that you might die within the fir— the next 12 months.

Yeah.

So, you know, get out there, get out there. You know, you don't need a personal trainer. There's so much out there on YouTube now. There is so much out there that's free, that's there for you. And in Atomic Habits, James Clear, I love this line. I say this all the time. He says, keep the schedule, change the scope. So I remember one of the examples was about working out and going to the gym, and he was like, I'm gonna go to the gym 4 times a week. And then, you know, work would come up or meetings would come up or— and then, you know, something would, would come up. And instead of just not going to the gym, he'd go to the gym even if it was just for 10 minutes. So at the end of the week, he was able to say, I went to the gym 4 times this week. And what does that do for your confidence? What does that do to help motivate you? Because people think motivation comes from doing stuff. It actually comes from you actually just putting your shoes on, right? Yeah. Anyway, I love that. So that's, I think, the thing. Make these promises to yourself and keep them if you can.

I agree. I'm in this era of like, look, build trust with yourself. It's so valuable to know that you can trust yourself to do hard things, to know that you can do the hard things and come out the other side. And all that repetition, every time you do something you don't want to do, every time you show up at the gym because you said you would, you're building trust with yourself. And more than we need to trust anyone in the world, we need to be able to trust ourselves, right?

Absolutely.

Talk with me about the mindset piece too. What— you touched on this earlier— what is one mindset shift you wish every woman could make?

That you have a choice. That you have a choice. Every doctor has shared that we have more influence over how we experience menopause than we have been led to believe.

Yeah.

So know that you have more control than you think.

I think that just applies to menopause in every aspect of your life too. Like, if we can hold ourselves accountable to so much of it is in our control, life looks so much different and it's so much brighter. You know, we can create whatever reality we want at that point.

Well, and I think everything that you've done with Modern Thyroid, like, and what I'm trying to do with Menopositive is we are changing the conversation. You know, like pain and decline is not your destiny. And it's these conversations where we can share examples and we can educate women and empower them to live longer in better health. And that's what I love about your show. It's like, oh, this is how you can actually manage thyroid, your thyroid disease, and how you can help your fatigue or help with your libido. Or nobody has to suffer in silence. Right.

We're not destined for a life filled with suffering just because we are going to go through menopause. We have a thyroid issue. It's so incredibly true. And women, one, they don't know that, or two, they don't believe it. And the more you're exposed to it, the more you know, hey, yeah, this is possible. I can live a life and thrive through these seasons. And issues in life.

And we are talking about longevity and people living longer in better health. And I think women in their 40s, 50s, 60s, if you look at the work of Dr. Mindy Pelz, you know, her studies on aging where she's looked back, you know, from an evolution perspective, anthropological perspective, our brains are being rewired for leadership, right? This is an amazing opportunity for us to step into the second half of our life. And I believe that it can be just as vibrant and just as exciting as the first.

I agree. And, you know, as a young person, you always look at a certain age category and you're like, gosh, I'm really not looking forward to that. And so far, I'm in my mid-40s now. It's like every decade keeps getting better. And I can only imagine my 50s will be more incredible than my 40s. And I think because so much is changing in the landscape Hormones, menopause, how we look at this, how we kind of pre-frame it and treat it, that it really will be like the best years. Now we have much more of a chance than maybe our parents, our moms did to experience—

Absolutely.

The ability to thrive.

And so many women in their 40s, 50s are starting new businesses. I mean, you just have to scroll through Instagram and see this vibrant community of women who are really changing the narrative on what aging is all about. Oh my God, you know Gillian Anderson? Yeah. Um, she's written this book which is all fantasy, like women's letters talking about their sexual fantasies.

Oh, I had no idea.

Yes. So she's written this book and she was in London.

She—

I mean, she filled Royal Albert Hall, which is usually where the symphony is, right? And she even brought on Helen Mirren and they're talking about sex and squirting and like all of these things. But there's so much of this that is just coming into the common vernacular. Like even talking about perimenopause, nobody was talking about it 5, 10 years ago like we are today. So I think it's a really exciting time in women's health.

Agreed. Couldn't agree more. Tell me what you feel like the biggest lie women face in midlife is.

Along the same lines that your best years are behind you.

Mm-hmm.

I just simply don't believe that's true. And I gave a few examples there already. We've inherited this narrative and it, it's a myth and it's up to us now to change it, right? It's not about decline. And I mentioned Dr. Mindy Pelz, but even there's a Harvard professor, I think it's Andrew Brooks, who wrote a book, From Strength to Strength. And I was looking at this because I was transitioning between jobs when I was turning 50. And I was going from a big corporate into a startup, like a scale-up of a tech company. And the founders were 28 years old. And it was very, very different. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like almost double their age. But his— in his book Strengths to Strength, he talks about how the first half of our life is about fluid intelligence. This is that hustle culture. Right? Like climbing the corporate ladder energy. And then the second part of our life is about crystallized intelligence. And this is where we use, you know, we're gonna use our wisdom and perspective just to create a, I don't know, a deeper impact and grow in ways that we never thought possible. So I think the second half of looking pretty good.

I totally agree. I always say, You know, our 20s are for exploring what we'd love to do and what we're passionate about. Our 30s are about like honing that skill and craft. Our 40s is where we're kind of sailing and enjoying it and, you know, really feeling confident in our skills. And our 50s is just even— and beyond— exponentiates that, which is incredibly rewarding, or it has been for me so far. Talk with me a little bit. So you've interviewed, I would say dozens.

It's probably—

it's more than that. Like, sure, it's dozens, but it's so many experts. You have asked so many questions, millions of questions that women really want to know the answers to. And I'm curious your take on wellness fatigue. So I think we're moving beyond optimizing health and longevity and we're moving into This is exhausting. Tell me what your take is on that after talking with so many people. Oh my gosh.

Well, you know what? It's— I think it's more when I talk to some of my girlfriends about it, really, because I think everybody's like, oh my God. And you see the memes on Instagram, don't you? Right? Like, I've got to eat more protein and then I've got to take 10 million supplements and then I've got to do X many lunges. And if I don't do my strength training and if I don't eat my hormones, then I'm not going to be good about this. But I think optimization culture is waning. So where it used to be biohackers, I think that's a very masculine territory. I have a lovely friend in Dr. Tamsin Lewis who actually was a, like a Great Britain triathlete. She won Ironman, I don't know how many times. She's a psychiatrist and longevity expert, and she now talks about bioharmony.

Mm-hmm.

Not biohacking, because hacking and everything up until now up until now has felt really unsustainable to me. And, you know, there's so many people who go to the gym or try a diet and it doesn't work. But I think what you're trying to do, what I'm trying to do in educating women on sustainable change— So I think the anti-perfection, anti-optimization messaging is waning, which is really good. And if we start with the basics, right? Eat well, move your body, sleep. Not easy, but if you start there, after that, then you can have fun. Then you can start optimizing. And you know what? You might need less hormones. But if you want to play with a peptide here and there, then maybe you want to play with a peptide with a qualified expert. You're sourcing that properly, but then you can play a little bit. So that's my view. I think that conversation is changing. a little bit around sustainable lifestyle change. What do you think about it?

I think so too. I mean, I always think it creates more of a barrier than a roadmap for success when it's like the concept and construct that you have to do everything or nothing's gonna happen. I hate that for women because I hate it for men too, but I feel like women especially bear an awful lot of expectations, perfectionism already. Put on them. I think this is one area that we need to know the realistic kind of expectations. I'm curious, with all your conversations you've had with experts in so many various fields, when you talk about a healthy diet, do you feel like— are you able to extrapolate through lines from those conversations on what a healthy diet looks like? Because I know it's so polarizing. Right. There's like so many different options. Yeah.

I mean, it all comes down to protein, protein, protein. I mean, the beautiful thing about protein, especially if you're strength training, right? Like you can't build muscle if you're not eating your protein. And if you can have muscle, then you're going to burn fat just while you're watching television. The through lines, I think they're one of the big conversations that comes up is around metabolism. And how that changes and where the weight— women start to gain weight during midlife. I like some of the little hacks, if I'm honest. I think for me, I'm very disciplined, so I weighed every— like, for— there was a certain amount of time where I weighed everything and measured everything, and I really eliminated things and introduced them back in. But there's a few hacks because one of the common things, and maybe you find this with your thyroid patients as well, is around digestion, a lot of bloating.

Right.

And not having regular bowel movements. And, you know, here's a through line. Everybody needs to poo. Yeah, that's a through line for you. Women think it's normal to wait 2 or 3 days. And if you are on hormone replacement therapy, not ideal. Not ideal if you're not having a bowel movement every day. But there's your soundbite, McCall.

I like it.

Everybody needs to poo.

Everyone needs to poop. We need fiber, like we need protein, but we also need fiber. I love it. It's so true.

Yeah. I mean, 2 little hacks that have really made— I was one of those women who wasn't regular. I've now learned as well from listening to my body that if I get up in the morning and I have a very relaxing, calm morning, then I am able— this is so— we're getting really like, we're like best friends now, McCall, you and I.

Absolutely. Hey, we talk about poop all the time. We can talk freely about poop. Yeah.

Okay, great. Great. Then I will have a bowel movement, but if I get up and I'm rushing and I'm stressing and, and have to get outta the house, then I don't. So I've learned that about my body and then I can make those allowances, either get up early or, you know, plan so I'm really organized in the morning. But 2 things that have made a big difference for me were flaxseed.

Mm-hmm.

So I put some tablespoons of flaxseed in a, you know, a glass container with a little bit of water. I do it every, at the beginning of every week. And then I put it in the fridge and then every day I have 2 tablespoons that I put on some Greek yogurt or in some coconut yogurt. That's made a big difference for me. And the other thing is just sprouts. You know, I go to the grocery store and get a lot of sprouts and I, then I'll just throw those on a piece of steak or I'll throw them on my salad or I'll throw them on eggs. And those are 2 little things that actually aren't expensive that have made a big difference for me.

I'm actually gonna go buy both of those things now. Thank you for that. Yeah, no, those are great. Actually, those are fantastic tips. Also, I'm glad to know I'm not alone in that. God forbid I have to take a morning flight out. There is no way I'm going to the bathroom before I leave or the next day. At that point, it just compounds the whole issue, right?

The airplane is the worst.

It's the worst. Why is that? Meanwhile, my husband's just trucking along, living his life, waking up, going to the bathroom 2 minutes after he gets out of bed, and Always before.

Yeah, I know. It's just not fair. It's not fair. I mean, you know, aging can get, can get expensive for us, for us women, you know, if you have to do all these things. But, you know, like we've talked about too, there are just some lifestyle changes that you can make that don't have to be expensive either.

Absolutely. Well, I'd love for you to tell us a bit about Menopositive. Tell us about where people can find more. On you, on your message, on your work? I'd love for my people to get to know you really well.

Well, I would love that too, because I'm sure we share a lot of the same types of women and listeners on our show. Menopositive is, you know, it's become a philosophy, really. But yes, I do have a podcast, and it was all driven by my passion to change the narrative on menopause. And I think I get the privilege to meet and interview experts from around the world on managing hormone shifts. And it's all about educating and empowering women to make changes. So I find there was so much dumb— like I was saying, there's so much out there around here's what's going to happen to your body and here's how you're going to fall apart. But then nobody was saying, here's what you can do about it. So we have both sides of that conversation in lovely conversations that should be empowering for women to go and make change. And like I said, it's become, you know, a philosophy really around if you're menopositive, then you know that this isn't the end, but it's, it's a powerful new beginning.

I love that. Well, thank you, because that's such a, a needed area of focus for women. I mean, obviously not even just in menopause, perimenopause, premenopause, even in their 20s now. I love that you're educating all of us because we really, we need that in all the eras of our life. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you so much for your work. And where can people find you on social?

You can find me at menopositive.life on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube.

I love it. Well, thank you so much, Lisa. I so appreciate you sharing your message and your work with my people.

It was so great to talk to you, McCall. Thank you so much.