Charles Barkley on LeBron's greatness, funny TNT stories and angry Shaq | The Draymond Green Show

What's up everybody? It's Draymond Green. Make sure you subscribe to The Volume's YouTube channel below so you don't miss any more of this great content going forward. Man, I wanna welcome my next guest, Hall of Famer, someone who I actually have the honor of calling a coworker today and a partner in crime, the incredible basketball player, but What I've said before, more importantly to me, I think he's an even better TV personality than he was basketball player. And yet he's in the Hall of Fame for basketball. So that shows you how great he is at this. And I know the Emmys have been rolling in, Emmy Award winner, but everything else will keep rolling in as far as Hall of Famer and TV as well. And I'm honored to have you as a guest, the Chuckster, Charles Barkley. What's happening, my brother? Thank you, man.

Thank you, thank you. Welcome to the team too, man. You're gonna be great on TV for the next 100 years once you get through playing basketball. I will tell you this though, hey man, don't rush it. Ain't nothing like playing.

Yes, sir.

I tell people all the time, I don't care how much success you have on television, there's nothing like playing basketball for a living. Those big games and things like that, there's nothing like it. And you can always be Charles Barkley, Shaquille O'Neal, and Draymond Green for the rest of your life, "Hey, you play until they drag that damn jersey off of you, brother." Yes, sir.

Hey, I've heard you say that once before. And I've done some research before on J.Lo, and my fiancée absolutely loved J.Lo. And one thing she said was when she did the Selena movie, that that's what made her wanna go into singing because she was an actress at first. But the thrill and that rush that she got from being on stage in that movie is what made her then go into singing. Is that similar to what you're saying as far as TV and actually playing the game of basketball?

Yeah, TV's fun. I mean, it's a great way to make a living, but ain't nothing like being in the moment, especially like you have so much control to bring a joy in their lives. But you think about this, like no matter how bad shit going in life for somebody in Golden State, San Francisco, when the Warriors are doing good, it brightens up their day. And to have that type of power to like, man, these people, they can be having trouble at home, they can be having trouble at work, the joy you can bring them, there's nothing like that rush. You know, 'cause you know, people come up to you all the time and say, "I wanna thank you for this, I wanna thank you for this." And you're like, Wow, man. Even though it's a stupid basketball game, it does bring a lot of joy to people. I mean, like I said, you could be having an awful day, but if your team is doing well, man, it's a really big deal. Like, there's been times I've had people come up to me who were like battling cancer, who was sick, and say, "Hey, I just wanna thank you for that ride we were on," and things like that. So it's a really, ain't nothing like it, Dray. Ain't nothing like it.

Yeah. Absolutely. And speaking of playing as long as I could possibly play, I can't help but to ask, I know since I started coming to Turner and working with you guys, I've been hearing even well before that, that Chuck's gonna retire in about a year, Chuck's gonna retire in about 2 years. And I know you recently just came out and said you maybe got 2 more years and then that's it. Like, is it serious this time or? Or do you just kind of take it year by year and go on how you feel?

Well, I think that you're gonna run into this when you get older. Dude, I've been doing this 21 years. Like, if I was doing it 5 years, I wouldn't be thinking about retiring. So I'm in year 21 now. And then I got 2 more years left on my contract. And like I say, dude, I turned 59 last week. So I ain't no young-ass dude. And I'm smart enough to know, and I'm not one of those guys who worried about death. If I die tomorrow, man, I had a good run. But I do know I'm closer to death than I am living. And I'm gonna be a grandpa hopefully in the next week to 10 days.

Wow, congratulations.

And I don't want to, like I say, and I can say, I don't wanna die on television. I wanna be dying traveling the world, having fun. You know, I wanna be a great grandpa. I do, I wanna be a great grandfather. But like I say, I'll be 60 years, 61 in 2 years. And like I say, we don't know how this thing gonna end, but I wanna be able to say like, man, he wasn't working, he was traveling the world, he was having fun, he was golfing, he was fishing. Man, I just saw Charles, he was over in Italy. I saw him on, they had a, you know, I just saw him, he was over in Germany. I just saw him, he was over in Spain. I mean, 'cause all the work that we have done, you know, going back to dribbling that stupid basketball in the parks and things like that, like you built yourself an amazing life, yourself and me, like why not enjoy the back nine?

Absolutely.

Because even though the work ain't hard and it's fun, you still have something to do all the time. I tell people, I says, "You still have stuff to do all the time." And that's what, like, if I could just show up at the studio and just do basketball, like, no, I have to do X amount of interviews a day. I have to, you know, like, you know, you have to go and pump up the show. That's really what's really fun. I'll tell you this funny story. Not many people know this, and I'm probably gonna get in trouble for telling you this.

Mm-hmm.

We actually hired Kobe Bryant.

At Turner.

At Turner. But he didn't wanna do all the other bullshit. This is one of the, and I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying this, but this is one of the like little things that we kept, we keep in the closet. So he actually signed with us, but then when we started telling him like, you know, I had to do a bunch of radio shows. Like, hey, I go on this show on Monday, something, hey, "From Thursday night TNT, same thing on Tuesday, same thing on Wednesday, same thing on Thursday." He like, "Yeah, I don't wanna do all that stuff." He says, "Well, you have to promote the show, Kobe." So Kobe actually is so funny. And like I say, it's probably only 10 people in the world know that, that he actually signed with us. He's like, "Nah, I'm not doing all that other bullshit." He just like, "Nah." But it was funny 'cause like I say, we always had something to do.

Yeah. So wait, hold on. So Kobe signed and he was gonna be on, like, just one of the guys on the Thursday night crew?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, he had signed with us. David Levy, my old boss, had signed him to a deal. And we were excited. We were really excited. And then he called me back like a week, 10 days later, somewhere in that timeframe, like, "Yeah, Kobe's not gonna come." We're like, "Why?" "Cause he don't wanna do all the PR stuff." He don't wanna go on radio shows and talk about basketball. I'm like, "Well, that's part of the gig." I mean, people need to know, "Hey, I'm on Thursday night." 'Cause if you notice when you do interviews, they're like, "Hey, welcome from TNT Thursday Night, Charles Barkley." Yep. Same thing, you know, you talk to Kenny and Shaq, they always, 'cause that's part of promoting the show. So it was funny though, he didn't wanna do all that and he never came to work for us.

Wow, that's interesting. I think that's great for me too, because the reality is, you see the job that you guys do, and unless you're tuned in to the radio shows or you catch one of your snippets when you break the internet, you don't really know anything past you going up there on Thursday nights. And yet it seems to be so much more to the job. Than people even know. You know, you'll hear people say, "Oh man, Chuck make all this money and he only work one night a week." And from about what you're saying, that's far from the truth.

Well, it is far from the truth. Well, 'cause really the only time you really work is during the playoffs. You like work every day for 2 months. I mean, that's when it's hectic and there's a lot going on. But during the regular season, you really only working one day a week. So that's when you really have to pump it up more. Like everybody's gonna watch the playoffs. They're like, "Well, the playoffs start, they on 40 days and 40 nights." But during the regular season, you have to pump it up all week. Like, "Hey, real Charles Barkley Thursday night." I do that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Just let, but like, I mean, that's part of the gig. But you know, Kobe didn't wanna do all that stuff. And it never worked out.

That's funny. I mean. Especially for someone as hard as working as Kobe, like, nah, I don't wanna do all that. But then you think about it. And the reality is for everything that he gave to the game of basketball, I can understand him saying like, nah, that's too much for me. Like, I don't wanna do that. And quite similar to what you're saying about being a great grandfather, I think at that point in his life, the most important thing for him then was being a great husband. And being a great dad. And we saw that, you know, like we saw that with Gigi and her basketball career. You see the videos with him at the mall with the baby girl and all of that. So I think that's a very interesting, just a very interesting thing overall.

Well, you know, as a dad to a daughter, the bond you have Like, I've been in the NBA for 37 years.

Wow.

And guys don't give a shit about sons, but they love their sons. They love their sons. But it's just something about a girl that she has you wrapped around her finger. And like, I used to joke about my daughter all the time. I said, my daughter asked me, "Dad, I wanna go to outer space." I was like, "Well, let me see if we can fit it in the budget." There's no way you can tell your daughter no. Like I say, I've been in the NBA for 37 years. Dudes tell their son like, "Get the hell away from me, man. No, you can't have that. You can't have that." But I ain't never heard one of my dudes say, "Yeah, man, my daughter, I ain't got no chance against her. Whatever she wants, I'm gonna give her." And then when I got my daughter, I was like, "Damn, I know what you mean now." Yeah. Yeah, I was like, "Nah, man, whatever." I mean, she just the most, like, it's crazy. How they have so much control over you. And like I say, I've been around this game and the guys would tell their sons all the time, "Man, leave me alone, man. You're bugging the hell outta me." But when it come to their daughter, like, "Nope, whatever she wants, she gonna get." It's a really crazy dynamic, but it's true.

No, as a father of two daughters, I definitely understand, and a son, I definitely understand that because I think for me, Everything with my son is, I wanna give you all of the things that I had to go through without you having to go through those issues. But yet understanding that in order for you to become a man, I have to let you go through some of those issues and trying to find that balance, I think is always tough thing for me with him. But with my girls, you're right. It's just like, all right.

They don't want half the stuff You can buy them dolls and clothing and that, they're good.

Yeah.

Your son, he wants every sneaker, he want every Jordan, he want every LeBron, and then they want a cell phone, then they want a car. I mean, it's like, it's crazy. Like, and you know, and the most difficult thing, and it's a very difficult thing, trying to figure out how much to give them. Because you can't, like, and there's no right or wrong answer. Because I've seen crazy kids, I've seen kids go to jail, I've seen kids who don't speak to their parents, I've seen parents who don't speak to their kids. I mean, it's such a crazy learning experience, 'cause— Mm-hmm. 99.9% of the players grew up poor.

Yes.

And now, now your dad's rich. And I can't even imagine how crazy it is now with the money you guys make today. I mean, I tell people all the time, dude, the most money I made in 16 years was $5 million a year.

That's crazy.

And I said, And that's after 16 years I made $5 million. I said, "You got guys making $20, $30, $40 million." I can imagine like trying to like, I can give my kid anything, but I'm not going to.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't know if there's a right way or a wrong way to do it, but man, it's really a tricky slippery slope trying to figure out how much to give them.

Absolutely.

And 'cause you can give 'em too much. Like I say, in my years, I've seen a bunch of train wrecks. I've seen a bunch of great kids. I mean, I've seen good, bad, and ugly in my 40 years in the NBA of guys trying to raise their kids. Like I say, I can't even imagine what it's like with you guys making $20, $30 million a year, 'cause those kids can read, they're like, "My dad making $30 million a year, I can get anything I want." I said, like I say, my last year I made $5 million after 16 years. And you know, that's a lot of money, but it ain't nothing compared, and bless you guys, what y'all make today. But I couldn't imagine arguing with my kids today. My daughter, I only got one, wait, trying to figure like, "Dad, I just saw you made $45 million." And I ask you for this, this, and this, and you gonna tell me no? I'm like, I couldn't imagine what it's like for kids today when they see how much money their parents making. They're like, "Dad, you can give me anything in the world," which is crazy. Yeah.

No, absolutely. And I remember when I was on set, your daughter was getting ready to get married.

Yes.

And you said, "I told her, you can either get the wedding or you get a down payment on the house. Y'all pick." And she picked the wedding. Did she still get the down payment, Chuck?

You know, Draymond, that was a, first of all, she went to Villanova and Columbia. I thought she was smarter. I was like, listen, you can get a big chunk of money to start a house and start a college tuition fund, or you can get a whole stupid wedding where a bunch of freeloaders come up and drink up all your alcohol and eat up all your food, and that money's gone. And then she says, Dad, I want a wedding. And I'm like, I thought you were smarter, but it's your wedding. I said, number one, you better hope this works. I'm not doing this shit for your second wedding. You're going to get a justice of the peace for your second wedding. And you know, she stayed relatively in budget.

OK.

But I wanted her— and I can understand. She wanted a wedding. It's her first time getting married. But I do, I wish a lot more people was like, "Nah, you gimme some money." Because I can't imagine what it's gonna be costing when kids go to school now.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm like, "Damn." I think one of the great travesties in our country is what we charge education. I do. I think America is the greatest country in the world. You see all this stuff going on over in Ukraine and Russia, it's like, Man, we're so lucky to be born in the United States. I mean, that's so crazy. And bless the Ukrainians. I mean, bless 'em. But like, what we charge kids to go to school today, it really makes me sick to my stomach because, especially Black kids and poor kids, they can't have, like, they're eliminated probably from 65 to 70% of the great colleges in this country right off the bat. And I don't think that's fair at all. I mean, because, you know, these people can't be writing checks for $75,000, $80,000 or getting in debt that type of way. So I wish they would fix the school system. So if a kid wanted to go to, let's say, Villanova, I don't even know how much it costs to go to Michigan State, but I'm pretty sure it's a pretty penny.

Yeah.

You know, $60,000, $70,000, that's a lot of money, especially if you got, 3 or 4 kids. Most people can't afford to get in that type of debt. And I wish we would fix that.

Absolutely.

I wish we would fix that school system in this country.

No, I think one of the biggest issues with it is, number one, you go to 4 years of undergrad and then you get out, depending on, there's maybe 2 or 3 undergrad degrees that you can get and you actually get a great job coming right outta that. For all the other ones, you need to go get a master's or you need to go get a second degree. Then that puts you another $150,000 to $200,000 in debt. And let's say for instance, it is a teacher. You know, we know how little teachers are paid in America and how ridiculous their salaries are. So let's say it's a teacher, someone who's educating our children, which is important because they are our future. They're gonna be in debt the rest of their life. They bring home $60,000 or $70,000 before taxes. And yet you're already starting off $350,000, $400,000 in debt. Yeah. In debt. And then you have these kids coming from poor neighborhoods like myself, like yourself, and going into that debt, there's never a way out of it.

No, never.

Because in order to get these loans to actually go to college, you have Sallie Mae and all of these people charging you 18% interest. And so you spend the rest of your life in debt. I actually never understood, just the debt system and school system and how it actually worked and student loans until me and my fiancée were years into dating. And we got to talking about me, like us finally paying off our student loans. And my fiancée ran track at Michigan State. She was on partial scholarship yet she still has student loan bills. And I was talking to her and she's saying, yeah, it's this amount. I've already been able to pay off this amount. And I'm just like, are you kidding me?

She's only paying the interest.

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, are you kidding me? I couldn't believe it because for us, you get all the free books, you know, you get everything's for free. So when I left school, I did leave in debt. I left with a $5,000 credit card bill that I had maxed out 'cause I didn't have any more money. But that was it. I did not understand that. And she helped me understand it. And I don't know, like, if you're not becoming a professional athlete or a lawyer or a doctor, like, how can you ever, or an entrepreneur, how can you ever pay those things off?

The system is stacked against you. You know, listen, I'm very aware of racism. I grew up in Alabama. Racism exists, always has, and unfortunately always will. But the biggest problem we have, one of the biggest problems we have in America, it's really just about economics. It's rich people screwing poor people. Because we put poor people in this situation where, number one, we put 'em in the worst neighborhoods.

Yeah.

We put 'em in the worst schools. And we say, "Good luck being successful." And then you get some fool on TV telling you, "You just got to work harder." You're like, "No, you didn't work harder, brother. You just had an advantage." You really, unless you gotta have great self-esteem, great discipline, because I remember when I first started learning about debt, as you're talking about now, you know, I don't wanna call out any credit card companies, but there was a couple credit card companies sending these credit cards to kids in college. But you know, maybe one day I might get a commercial with one of these, so I don't wanna piss 'em off. But so they send these credit cards to these kids, and they send 'em to me and my friends. And we would just go in there, Draymond, we'd just go up and buying up everything. And we'd be patting each other on the back, "Man, we really screwing these people. We getting over on these folks." [LAUGHTER] And I said, "We only gotta pay this much." And then I was in college for 3 years. And then when I got to the NBA, when I started, me and my, like, people knew how to handle money. Like, "Well, what's this debt stuff you got going on?" I said, "Well, we got these credit cards. We were getting over on these people. We buying all this shit." blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He says, "You do know you only paying interest, right?" I'm like, "I have no idea what you talking about." He says, "Charles, they send those credit cards to poor people who need it, and you just buy up a bunch of stuff, and you pay quote unquote the minimum, which not even, it's not even the interest in most cases. And then by the time you figure it out later, something that costs $1,700, you paid like $4,000 for it by the time you actually get it. I was like, damn. And so that's one of the reasons I try to teach my friends. I said, yo man, do not get these credit cards. And if you get those credit cards, pay 'em off each month.

Yeah.

Or pay 'em off as soon as possible. It's like sometimes you run into stuff where you just need some stuff.

Yeah.

I said, but do not pay that damn minimum. 'Cause you're gonna pay 2 to 3 times whatever some cost, because they only send you a couple credit cards in college. Like, wait a minute, why are they sending me credit cards in college and I ain't got no damn job? Because that's part of the hustle they got going on.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, it's stuff like that. You know, I try to teach my friends, yo man, do not be maxing out these credit cards. Get whatever you get and pay it off. Don't hold on, pay it off. And that's the type of stuff I try to teach my homeboys in my small town in Alabama, because there's a lot of scams out there that Black people don't know about. And poor white people in the same boat too. You know, they in the same boat. I mean, 'cause that goes back to what I said earlier, it's really about economics. 'Cause I use this analogy when I'm speaking, you got to understand something about being poor and Black and poor and white. The baseball analogy. It's 3 strikes in baseball. Well, if you born poor in this country, you got 2 strikes against you. You're gonna be in a shit neighborhood, you're gonna be in a shit school, and they gonna say, "Good luck." And like I say, me and you got hit because we were really great at basketball.

Mm-hmm.

But most of the people ain't, they ain't got that type of talent. And that don't mean negative about 'em, that's just a fact. And if you don't have that, Self-discipline, you get yourself in debt and you gonna, and it's a long uphill climb for the rest of your life.

Absolutely. No, I think for me, even learning once I got to the NBA, my first year of filing taxes, my mother, I had done so much for my mother that first year that my business manager was like, "Hey, I think you should claim her on your taxes." At that point was the first time I ever learned how much money my mom made. And I always wonder about this, especially in neighborhoods like ours. One thing with me and my kids is I try to teach them about money now.

Yeah.

Because growing up in the neighborhoods that we grew up in, it's like I'd ask my mom, "Hey mom, how much did that cost?" "Enough." Or, "Ma, "Can we afford to pay for that?" And it's just, "No." "Well, why can't we afford to pay for that?" Or, "Ma, how much money you make? You got a roof over your head, don't you?" And the reality is, I'm so appreciative—

You don't even know you poor.

Exactly. And I'm so appreciative of my mom. And you can never be mad at your parents just for not knowing what they didn't know. You know, they didn't know anything about finances either. But the reality is, If we don't learn to correct that, especially as a culture and really teach our children about finances, good, bad, or indifferent now while they are still kids, we're going to continue this dying cycle of our culture and not understanding financial literacy by hiding it. You know, you're trying to hide the fact, like, I think at that point, I think I found out my mom made $17,000 a year. Mm-hmm. And I'm sitting there like, are you kidding me? Like, I remember growing up, my mom would say, "We poor." Like, I would ask for something and she'd be like, "We poor." I'd be like, "Whatever." Like, we had a roof over our head.

I had clothes on my back. Yeah, we don't even know what poor is.

I had shoes. Exactly. And so I'm like, "Whatever." Until I saw that, I was like, "Wow." But how do we ever change that if we don't get comfortable enough with whether we're poor, middle class, rich, wealthy, if we never get comfortable enough with sharing that information with our children?

Well, I think the number one thing we gotta do is we've got to like, okay guys, I'm not gonna be an enabler. I'm not just gonna give you money and let you blow it. Because once you start giving people money, they never gonna stop. They never gonna stop. You got to teach them how to handle money. Because some people get in debt one time, that's understandable. But when you come around asking for money all the time, you just becoming an enabler. You know, I remember my mom, I got one pair of shoes to start the season 'cause that's all she could afford. And she would bring 'em to the game and she would come to the locker room after the game and get 'em. So they had to last me the whole season. And that's 'cause my mom was a maid. I lived with my mom and my grandmother. My mom was a maid and my grandmother worked in a meat factory. So I guarantee you neither one of them made over $20,000 raising 3 boys, 4 boys total actually, 'cause 2 of my brothers have passed away. And I couldn't imagine until like, she's like, "Charles, you're gonna get one pair of shoes. They gotta last you the whole season. You can wear 'em to school once the season over." "but you're going to have to wear raggedy shoes to school every day. But I'm gonna get you a brand new pair of shoes to start the season." She said, but it was so funny, she bought them to the game and she came, it was like, knocked on the door after the game. He's like, "No, you're not wearing those shoes out the rest of the night." I used to joke about that later in life, but that was it. Those shoes had to last me the whole season.

Absolutely.

And, you know, living in the projects, you know, my mom and grandma did an amazing job, but living in the projects, like, you don't even know you poor. Like, we ate our meals, we never were hungry. I mean, it was tough living, sleeping in bunk beds growing up, but never even realized, quote unquote, we were poor until later in life, like, "Oh, we were poor." But my mother and grandma, they were both hardworking ladies. And like I say, I got very lucky because I could dribble a stupid basketball around. And I was very fortunate to change the whole dynamic of my family. And hopefully I can keep sharing that. You know, one of the things I do a lot of work with historically Black colleges, and I try to tell 'em like, you got to learn how to handle money. No matter how much money you got, you got to learn how to handle it. Mm-hmm. If it's $1 million, you gotta handle it. If it's $7,000, you gotta handle it. It is what it is. The situation you're in, that's your reality. And you're right. One thing about being Black, we gotta do a much better job on teaching each other how to handle money.

Absolutely.

And also we got to make sure to like, as far as when it comes to crime, We have to tell Black people, "Yeah, the system is stacked against you criminally. You can't break the law, then say there's systematic racism." Like, yeah, we know there is systematic racism. And you know, if you break the law, they gonna put your ass in jail, but you don't get to break the law and come back and say, "It's systematic racism." Every Black person in America that was like, "Yeah, there's systematic racism." I know that I can't break the law. But I always laugh when these guys break the law and says, "Well, it's the system." I'm like, "No shit, it's the system." Everybody knows the system is racist. It's systematic racism. So you knew you couldn't do stupid stuff and you still went out and did stupid stuff. That's what pisses me off sometimes.

Absolutely. Now, and switching gears just a little bit because we are talking about African Americans, A question that I wanted to ask you, because I've had a very similar sit— not similar in necessarily what happened, but similar in the outcome. Why is it as, especially as African American men, because we are leaders, why is it that we as African American men struggle so hard to move on from things and reunite back together. And the situations that I am talking about is my fallout with Kevin, which was a very public thing. Everyone knew about it. Everyone questioned it, blah, blah, blah. Your falling out with MJ, which was kind of a public thing, but everyone knew about it.

Yeah.

And yet I think that is a very important relationship because number one, both of y'all are two guys that I grew up watching play, two guys that I grew up looking up to. But also two guys that are doing such positive things in our community. And I think one of our biggest issues in our community is he's doing positive over here. He's doing positive over there. She's doing it over here, but we never come together. We never come together and do it all as one. Why is it that we can't move past things like that as African American men and just allow it to keep moving forward? And as if that's not gonna affect the ones coming up from behind us?

Yeah, yeah, I think number one, when you're successful, you're stubborn.

Mm-hmm.

So to be successful, you have to have an ego.

Absolutely.

And sometimes it's to a fault, but we all have, you're successful, you have an ego, you're stubborn. That's part of what makes you successful. That to me is what it's really all about. It's so, first of all, it's always stupid too, to be honest with you. Like, yo man, I'm sorry, you're sorry, let's keep it moving. Let's get over this bullshit, whatever it is. But people get stubborn and you factor in the way we are in television and the internet today, it's like, well, I'm not gonna make the first move. You're not gonna make the first move. And you got to understand there's people around both of y'all, both of us, who are probably fanning the flames.

Absolutely.

So it really comes down to silliness, to be honest with you, because we all need each other to be successful. We all need each other to be successful. And it's just about ego and stubbornness. That's all it is. Because very few guys will pick the phone or say, "Yo, man, my bad, my bad." You know, most celebrities get in trouble when they try to handle a messed up situation. They instead of like, they got all these people around like, "Hey, let's handle it like this, let's handle it like this." Mm-hmm. One of the reasons I have been successful, every time that I messed up, Draymond, I just said the words, "My bad, I'm sorry." Mm-hmm. And I don't worry about, because there's two factions, there's the public and there's the media. The media, they're in a very unique situation. What I mean by that is they kinda got to pile on or they lose credibility. When you do something wrong or stupid, The press can't say, "Oh, it's all right." They're like, "Nah, I gotta keep my credibility." So they gonna throw gasoline on the fire. That's just the way the thing works. So the people around you, you got to have good people around you to tell you like, "No, Dray, you probably shouldn't do that." "No, Chuck, you probably shouldn't do that." But on the other hand, there's so many people around you 'Cause on the payroll, who lets it, "Nah, man, forget him. He's this, he's that." So there's a lot of variables, but it really comes down to ego and stubbornness. That's all it really comes down to.

And I know for sure that you're capable of putting your ego to the side. By the way, when I first walked out, and I've told this story publicly before, when I first walked onto the set to do the arena with you, Kerry Champion and Dwyane Wade. I mean, there was no surprise. I was coming on there. We had been talking back and forth in the media. You said you was gonna punch me in my face. I said I was gonna take your job. Like, we can go on and on and on. It went on for years. And the moment I walked on that set, you got outta your seat. "What's up, Draymond? How you doing?" And I'll be 100% honest with you. I was walking up there like, whatever happened happened. If he say something to me, if he wanna punch me, I'm ready to go there. And you disarmed me so fast. Like, "Hey, what's up, man? How you doing? It's great to see you. Welcome." And I'm just sitting there like, "What the hell?" You know what's really funny?

You remind me a lot of Dennis Rodman. Like, I wanna play with you. You would be annoying as fuck to play against. Like, I saw Dennis at the 75 thing and we hugged each other like brothers. He's somebody I really like a lot and respect. You're the same way. It would be annoying to play against you because number one, I don't think you've ever committed a foul. And that's, hey, listen, that makes me laugh every time. But, I think sometimes people don't realize, and you gonna realize it too, like at 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning, sometimes you like, "This dude is driving me crazy tonight. He's arguing with the refs all night." And then Shaq said, "What do you wanna do?" And I just said, "I just wanna punch him in the face." And then what pissed me off about that night, to be honest with you, I was joking around, and then a reporter asked you that, and then, You got to— see, that's one thing I tell brothers. You have to be really careful because everybody's got pride and ego. And I knew when I heard him ask you that question, I said, "Oh man, this dude gonna think I'm serious about punching him." I ain't never gonna punch an NBA player 'cause we are all in the same family. But I knew because a lot of guys, don't understand, like, the media, when they ask you a question, they want you to come back at a dude. They want you to keep it going. That's why I never respond. When guys say bad stuff about me, I says, "I take that, goes with the job." Because the media, number one, they don't know a lot about basketball. So when they have two guys just going back and forth at each other, It's just crazy. And like, you kind of doing it, I said, we're doing their job for them. Like, no, man, you write about basketball. Don't write about these two guys. 'Cause like, why are you writing about two guys who said something about each other? That's like right now, I haven't heard Giannis' response, but I heard Charles Oakley say that Giannis would be like, Yeah. Coming off, he's not that good of a player, and he'd be coming off the bench in our day. And like, I hope Giannis don't respond, 'cause then they gonna go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and like, nobody wins because Giannis is a great, great player. That dude can flat out ball. I mean, what's gonna be very interesting in the next 10 to 15 years, man, he gone, whoo!

Yeah.

I mean, he gonna set so many records 'cause he's getting an easy 28 a night for the next 10, 'cause he's only like 25.

Yeah, he young.

Yeah.

He's young.

But I hope he don't respond because that was a stupid statement. It was unnecessary. But like I say, that night when I said that, I was joking around. It was like, remember, y'all always to late games. So it was like 1 o'clock in the morning and I was joking around with Shaq and Kenny. And then I saw when that reporter asked you that question, I said, "Oh man, he gonna think I'm serious." But like I say, you remind me a lot of Dennis. 'Cause Dennis, man, that dude was a heck of a player. He was a hell of a player. He was so damn annoying to play against because you trying to concentrate on basketball and now he made it personal. Instead of you just playing basketball, I'm trying to go at him. I'm trying to go at Dennis every play now. Say, "Yo, man, I'm sick of hearing what a great defender you are. You talking trash. I'm going at your ass every time." And he gets in your head, and you do exactly the same thing. So, man, when you came in the studio, the first time I met you was in New Orleans.

Yeah, I remember that.

I was pumped up. I remember, and I said, "You gonna be a hell of an NBA player." We talked, we were at some bar having fun as usual. And then I say, "Welcome to the NBA, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And listen, you've had a hell of a career so far and the future's still bright, but you got a long way to go." Thank you. But I just think that we, and you gonna learn this too, there's gonna be guys who, when you have to talk about guys, they gonna be like, "I wanna play with that dude, but he's annoying as hell." 'Cause when, 'cause, 'cause, you know, it's like, like now if I played against Luka, This dude complains on every— he's a hell of a player.

He's a hell of a—

Yes, he is. I watched y'all game Sunday night. I said, he got another technical, but he complains on every play. And what he doesn't even realize, he's making contact with the defense, which all great offensive players. So he is getting hit, but if he would ask to go back and look at the tape, he's the one making the contact.

He does create a lot of contact.

The best player I've seen do that is Allen Iverson. He, 'cause he's such a little dude and a great player, he always hit the defense first. And me being a 6'5" guy, I hit the defense every time. And every time they didn't call a foul, I'm like, "Damn, dude, you didn't see that?" And I didn't realize until I went back and watched the tape, I'm like, "Oh, I actually the one who made contact with him." 'cause I had to get the 6'9" guy off of me. And a lot of guys are like that when they're great offensive players, depending on the size advantage, they always hit the defense first. That's the way you get 'em off your foot. When I played against Draymond Green, he's the best player I ever played against, I had to hit him like every single time. And because he was so long and lanky, but I was making contact with him every time, and every time they didn't call a foul, I bitched and complained about it.

And switching gears a little bit and just going back to the set, you and Shaq go at each other more than anybody I know. Do y'all ever get to the point of where you like, man, that was too much. Like, do y'all ever get to the point where y'all really pissed at each other? 'Cause I know y'all are best of friends, but do y'all ever get to the point to where you like, yo, that was too much, or that really pissed you off, or you really pissed him off?

I hope I piss him off. Because, you know, 'cause Draymond, what he really don't understand is he's always been the best player and the biggest, baddest dude.

Absolutely.

And what me and Kenny tried to explain to him, and you probably could explain also, like, dude, we ain't more talented than everybody we play against. There's a strategy, there's some techniques and things like that that are really important. But he's never had to worry about that, Dray, 'cause he's always been the biggest, most athletic guy in the world.

Yeah.

And he gets so mad when we try to talk basketball. I says, and me and Kenny argue with him all the time. He like, "Why don't they just get the ball to the big man, let him dominate?" He's like, "Check, nobody's like you and Wilt Chamberlain." There's a strategy. Like me and Kenny and Draymond, we have to have a strategy every night, especially against whoever you're playing against. And he refuses to listen to that. So then he goes right, "Well, you didn't win the championship." I said, "You're right. That still don't mean you don't—" We're talking basketball strategy. And I know every time I call him out on his strategy, he gets so pissed. And I love it. But the thing that I try to get him to understand is, Shaq, we ain't all like you. You've always been the biggest, baddest dude. You're bigger, stronger, faster than everybody you play against. When I play against Bird, McHale, Karl Malone, those three are the best, or Kevin Garnett, like, I have to watch tape and figure out, how I'm gonna be successful against this dude. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, I really have to think. I says, I'm gonna be 6'5" every day. When I'm playing against 6'9" Bird, I got to try to figure out how to attack him or stop him. So, "McHale, he's 7 feet tall. I just can't post a 7-foot guy up." Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett. I mean, when I'm playing, and he refuses to understand that there's any strategy in basketball. And you as a player who survives on smart, like you gonna have to have a game plan against a lot of guys.

Absolutely.

And that's one of the reasons you've been successful. But he refuses to believe there's any strategy in basketball. So it makes me mad. And then I, so I'll go at him, I says, "You just don't know anything about basketball." Then he gets mad. Which makes me laugh more inside. And Kenny's poking me under the table like, "Get him, get him." And then, so I know when I get him, "You didn't win anything." I'm like, "Yeah, I know, but we're talking basketball strategy." So it's fun for me to rile him up, but I wish that he would sit back and say, "Oh, maybe there is a strategy." But we all live in our own, existence.

Absolutely.

Like, he's never like, I need to have a strategy against Stanley Roberts, Dikembe Mutombo, Rick Smiths, Patrick Ewing. Like, probably the only big guy who schooled him was probably Hakeem.

Yeah.

And then once he became the full force he became, like, he was pretty much unstoppable. But he has always been the biggest, baddest dude. So he refused to believe there's any strategy in basketball. And I just laughed my ass off because like, yo man, you do know there's actually a strategy in basketball depending on who you playing against. But because of how great he was, he doesn't care.

Yeah.

Yeah, so anytime I can get his blood pressure up, I love it.

When he hits you with the G14 classification or you don't got ring, does that ever irk you? And what do you make of what people make of rings? Because in some cases, I think, you know, they can be overvalued sometimes for certain guys. Like certain guys, you didn't really contribute to get in that ring.

Yeah.

But you got the ring, great. In some cases it does matter.

But I don't get mad. Listen, and I'm not sensitive or whatever. If people want, I'm trying to figure out just because a couple of jackasses on television like Skip Bayless, who I hate more than life itself, starts talking about who won and who didn't won, a guy who never played, and now they're making a great living doing that. But what bothers me about that is basketball's not an individual sport.

Absolutely.

Like, to go on television and talk about, just because it makes great TV, like, wait, dude, basketball's a team game. You're making a great living because it's easy for people to attack certain guys, the stars, stars. You know, they don't, 'cause I used to, I'll tell this, I'll say this, Nobody ever says, "Hey man, Mark West didn't win the championship." You know, Kevin Johnson too, a great teammate. Nobody ever said Dan Martin didn't win. But you get a guy like Skip Bayless on television who's got a radio show and a following, he picks shots about certain guys who were great players who didn't win the championship, and he's made a great living doing it.

Mm-hmm.

But my thing has always been, Wait, it's not, y'all do know it's a team game, right? So that's the only time I get mad when guys who've never played the game talk about who hasn't won anything. And listen, and the point you said earlier, a couple seconds ago, like, I don't even get mad at guys who can't play dead who get rings. Yeah. Good for them. But I don't want guys walking around talking about, "The dude never won anything." And like, yo man, you didn't even play in the game. I mean, like, you can say to yourself, "Oh, I was a big part of the Warriors winning." Like—

Mm-hmm.

But if some guy came at me who didn't even get in the game, Talk about he won the championship. I'm like, yo, man, you really, you crossing a line right now. But that's the only time. But I get offended when guys who've never played, who are making a lot of money, talk about, well, he never won anything. Like, well, number one, you never played. Let's get that out the way. But to attack guys who are great at their sport, and there's a lot of guys who are great. I mean, you look at Karl was great. John Stockton was great. Patrick Ewing was great. They just never played on the best team. But to minimize what they did because it makes good internet, you know, they were on Matt Stafford before he got one this year. Wait, did Matt Stafford get better? No, he went to a better team.

He did go to a better team.

He went to a better team. I mean, he never won a playoff game in Detroit. He went to championship. Now what? All of a sudden he's a great, great player? I wish him nothing but the best. But he went to a great team. But you know, that, that was a narrative when the year started. He's not that good, he's not that good. Now he won, like, okay, now they go to the next guy. So it's probably gonna be— probably I think Josh Allen, who's great, probably got a couple more years. It's gonna be tricky on Pat Mahomes. They're gonna turn against him. They've already started. Turned against him. They've turned against Aaron Rodgers. So if you get one, then you get like, you get him off your back for a minute. They're like, "Well, he only won one." You know, so I just kind of sit back and laugh when guys who've actually never strapped them up make money talking about who never won anything.

Nah, absolutely. I, you know, I didn't use to pay attention to a lot of this stuff. And I say over the last, And I still, I don't watch a lot of it now, but because of Instagram, you see everything pop up on your phone. And like Skip Bayless, for instance, like it's baffling to me. Like I remember a time when, you know, media guys couldn't be homers. You know?

Yeah.

You even riding one guy like Skip does LeBron, it was almost viewed as distasteful. And now it's like, no, that's a real thing. Like the way he rides LeBron James, like no matter what LeBron does, that's a real thing. Like where did that change? How did we go from you can't be a homer to that? Like it's two totally different ends of the spectrum.

Well, when guys started making money doing that, like, 'cause now it's a full-fledged business. Like Skip Bayless hates LeBron and Aaron Rodgers.

Mm-hmm.

And for me, I hate that because the one thing I try to do is I'm never gonna lie on television because people believe what they see on television.

Mm-hmm.

And if you have watched Skip Bayless, you know he hates LeBron and he hates Aaron Rodgers. And that ain't right in my opinion, because let me tell you something, LeBron James, I think is, now I'm an MJ guy, I make that clear, but I think what LeBron has accomplished is arguably the greatest story in sports history. For number one, you look at Kobe, Kevin Garnett, guys like that, They were not good players when they first got to the NBA.

That is true. That's true.

LeBron is the only player in my 40 years in the NBA who played great from day one.

Absolutely.

And for him to turn into one of the best players ever, he's never gotten in trouble, especially in this, 24-hour news cycle with social media. For him to be as great as he's been from the year 18 to where he's at now, I think it's one of the great stories in sports history because number one, he was that good from day one.

Yep.

Which, like I said, as great as Kobe became and Kevin Garnett, guys like that, they were not good their first few years. But LeBron was good from day one. And for him to never have gotten in trouble and kept that level of excellence up, I think it's one of the greatest stories ever, in my opinion.

I agree 100%. I always tell people with LeBron, like, that he got the chosen one tattooed across his back. He had that tattoo in high school.

Yeah.

Like, King James, he was anointed King James in high school. I think for what, what's so incredible to me about LeBron is he probably had the highest expectations of any high school, any player, but especially high school player ever coming into the NBA. Like even Michael Jordan didn't have the expectations to become who Michael Jordan became when he came outta North Carolina. LeBron probably had the highest expectations.

Not only did he beat them, he exceeded them. 100%. We've never, I mean, like I said, even those guys I mentioned earlier, LeBron was the only one who came in with that, like, you're supposed to be the next great player. And he exceeded that.

It's insane.

But the thing that's amazing though, Dray, in this 24-hour news cycle, where people got cameras all the time, what he has exceeded off the court also, between his greatness at basketball and what he's accomplished off the court. And he's never really had a serious PR. I mean, the decision thing, leaving Cleveland, things like that. But to never get in trouble, It's one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life.

Absolutely. I mean, even the decision, the decision raised what, $10 million for charity or something like that?

Yeah. Well, they kind of did that 'cause they knew they had messed up. They had to do something charity-wise, you know? 'Cause that was a bad thing. I mean, in retrospect, I think it was a bad thing. I think they threw the charitable aspect out there 'cause like, "Oh, we getting killed right now." But like I say, I don't even hold that against him because man, to deal with all that pressure he's dealt with, I just think it's an incredible story.

Absolutely. A couple more questions. I know we've been on for a while and I'll sit here and talk to you all day, as you know. I mean, all we need is a glass of Lobos or something and we'll keep this thing rolling.

No question, brother. No question.

Does it? One of the things that I really wanted to focus on in coming on TV and especially being an active player was how do I be critical of guys and say what needs to be said without disrespecting a guy or making them feel like I'm hating on them? Because I know we hear a lot, or I mean, I even hear it a lot today. I don't really get off into it no more because I see the other side of things.

Yeah.

But you hear a lot today when, like for instance, when Uncle Oak today, his comment came out, some of my boys hit me and they're like, "Why the fuck would he say this?" And this, that, and other. And you hear younger players always say, "Man, them older guys are haters and they just be hating and they mad 'cause they ain't make as much money." And blah, blah, blah. Does it ever bother you when a guy who you may say something about on TV, start to dislike you personally, or you see them and they don't wanna speak, or like, you know, it's tension there. Does that ever bother you?

No, because, you know, Dre, if you're gonna be great at this business, and I think you're going to be, you gotta keep your credibility. You gotta keep your credibility, because that goes back to what we're talking about. The reason I don't like Skip Bayless is, He covers for guys he likes. You can't pick out LeBron and Aaron 'cause you don't like them, or that drives your ratings and your social media stuff, and then talk good about guys who are not nearly as good, how great they are and blah, blah, blah. So he's become a television personality, but I think it's important to keep your, like I said, okay, I might not like what y'all said, but he's gonna be fair. Listen, there's gonna be times you have to criticize guys. There's gonna be time you have to criticize guys you like.

Mm-hmm.

Or the fans gonna be like, oh, Draymond just, he likes his guys and he's hard on the guys he don't like. Well, then you're gonna lose your credibility. I don't think anybody can say in my 21 years that I said, oh, Charles just don't like that guy. But I do think there's a way you can criticize guys without, like, I just say, yo man, the guy just had a bad game. He played awful tonight. I don't have to say, oh man, he sucks as a player. He's awful. I'm like, no, he didn't have a good game. First of all, they just saw this dude have a bad game. They just saw this dude have a bad game. If I get on TV and somebody, well, he didn't have that bad of a game, they gonna be like, 'Oh, that's Chuck's boy.' Yeah. 'Yeah, that's Chuck's boy. He kills other people.' You know, so the number one thing you have to do is keep your credibility because once you lose that, the players ain't gonna respect you, but more importantly, the fans ain't gonna respect you. Because when you're on television, you're really trying to relate to the fans. And like I say, they might disagree with you, but as long as you fair, They're gonna be cool with it. But the number one thing though, Dre, when you get into this business full-time, the people saw what just happened. They saw like, "Wait a minute, did Dre just say this dude played good and he played like trash?" So you can't, if you do that, they gonna be like, "I'm not gonna listen to this dude no more. He got his guys he like, he kill the guys he don't like." So that's the key, keeping your credibility. So to answer your question, You know, man, I gotta do my job.

Absolutely.

I gotta do my job.

Absolutely. No, I respect that. And before we get outta here, are, like I said at the top of the show, you've won Emmys, you've done, are there any goals for you that you've set for yourself that you wanna accomplish before you say, like, 'cause obviously as basketball players, you know, we all set these goals, right? Like, I wanna win a championship. Or I wanna win a Defensive Player of the Year or be an All-Star. You set these goals for yourself and you say, I wanna do this by the time I retire. Is there anything left for you in TV that you want to do that you say, I have to do this before I say I'm done?

No, I think for me, we are in every broadcasting Hall of Fame there is. We are considered by far the best television sports show ever.

Absolutely.

That means a lot to all of us.

Mm-hmm.

That means a lot to all of us. I do think it's a joke that we get awards and things like that. I'm not gonna lie. I was like, wait a minute, y'all gonna pay us and give us trophies? So, but the number one thing I want fans to say, "I might not like Charles Barkley's opinion, but you know what? He tries to be fair and honest." That's all I really care about. You know, when I got in this business, my mentor said to me, Dick Ebersole, he says, "I think you're gonna be great on TV," he said, "but you're always gonna be in trouble." I said, "What does that mean?" He said, "Charles, fans only want one or two things. They want you to tell 'em their favorite player is great and their team is great." Mm-hmm. He said, "They don't want anything else." He says, "Now they gonna respect you, but they ain't gonna like you." That's like when I meet Knicks fans, they're like, "Why you hate the Knicks?" I says, "Yo, man, I don't hate the Knicks. Y'all been sucking for 20 years." [LAUGHTER] Why? You want me to get on TV and say they good, right? Is that what you want? I mean, I've been here anytime, seriously, for 20-some years on time. Anytime I'm in New York, they're like, "Oh, you hate the Knicks." I'm like, "Man, the Knicks been trash as long as I've been on television. What do you want me to say?" You want me to get on TV and say the Knicks got a good team? And I'm gonna look like a fool because other than last year when they had a decent, I can't remember them having a good year. I think Carmelo had a couple great years there, but the team wasn't very good. But when you're in New York, they're like, "You a hater on the Knicks." I'm like, "Yo, man, seriously, you really want me to get on TV and kill my credibility, say the Knicks got a good team?" Yeah. I ain't never lied about the Knicks. They just, they've been awful. But I want fans to know that I just don't have a hidden agenda. That's the number one thing, plain and simple.

I respect that, Chuck. I appreciate you. I think for me, again, I just wanna say thank you for what you've done. I mean, you went from being a Hall of Fame basketball player to transcending the broadcasting career after you're done playing. I don't think I can recall anyone that's done what you've done after the basketball career that you had, and it's incredible. So just from guys like myself and other guys that wanna take that route, I just wanna say thank you. And I think one of the most incredible things I can say about you that showed me what type of person you was, I always tell people, 'cause people still walk up to me like, "Oh, fuck Chuck." And like all of this stuff.

Yeah.

And I'll be like, "Man, listen, that's one of my favorite people." And I knew that was evident for me. Two things. Number one, I'm sitting in the green room, you know, I'm new on the job. I'm sitting in my locker room. You come in the studio loud as hell, of course, like only Chuck does, but you were speaking to everyone. And not only were you speaking to everyone, it was, "Yo, what's up, Ant?" Who most everybody don't know Ant, but Ant's the man behind the camera, you know? Yeah. Quite frankly, in most worlds, you wouldn't talk to Ant, right?

No, but I'm telling you though, the one thing, those people, I speak to everybody every night. I mean, for some reason, these fools have to go in there like 12 o'clock in the day. And I'm saying to myself, "Oh, we don't go on till 7 o'clock. What the hell y'all been doing here?" Since noon. They're like, "Chuck, we gotta do this, we gotta do this." And I'm sitting there like, "Nah, that's not shit take no 7 hours for y'all to do." And they're like, "Chuck, we have to show up at 12 for a 7 o'clock show." So Dre, I learned when I go there, like, they work, I don't even know what they're doing, but it's gotta be hard work for them to get there 7 hours in advance. So I make sure every time I go in the studio, I say, "Hey," "how you doing, how you doing, how you doing, how you doing?" Because like I said, I don't know what the hell they doing for 7 hours, but I appreciate them being there for 7 hours.

Absolutely.

I respect their time. And I really appreciate your kind words. And listen, whenever my journey is over, whether we work together or not, hey man, take it to the next level. You're gonna be great on television. You got charisma and personality. And it's gonna be when you take over.

I appreciate it, man. Like I said, I thank you for paving the way. I'm looking forward to catching up soon, my brother. And like I said, I'm letting Steve—

Get your ass on the court too.

I'll be back out there in a few weeks and I'm dominating they ass again, Chuck. But I'm letting Steve Kerr know right on this podcast right now, if Chuck's 60th birthday party happens on the night of a game, I will not be there. I will be at Chuck's 60th birthday party. I don't care who in the media got something to say about it. I don't care if y'all wanna light me up or rip me a new one. I'm at Chuck's 60th, and that's how it's going.

Hey, let me tell you this. Y'all keep winning because I wanna see the Phoenix Suns against the Golden State Warriors. We got the Western Conference this year.

Yes, sir.

I wanna sleep in my own bed in Phoenix. And I wanna make that short trip to San Francisco. So y'all both get it done, and I'll see you in the Western Conference Finals, my brother.

Yes, sir, my brother. Thank you, Chuck. I appreciate you.

Okay, brother. Y'all be safe.