Charles Oakley on Michael Jordan friendship & Dennis Rodman's antics | The Draymond Green Show

What's up everybody? It's Draymond Green. Make sure you subscribe to The Volume's YouTube channel below so you don't miss any more of this great content going forward. Man, I am excited to welcome this next guest, not because of what he was as a basketball player, but more so what he means to me personally. Uncle Oak, Charles Oakley, the enforcer of the NBA. We all throw this enforcer around. We try to throw that tag on me. We throw that tag on other guys. The reality is this is the ultimate enforcer. This who started that. This who made that what it is. Uncle O, welcome to the show, my brother.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm sorry about the other day we couldn't do it, but hey, today's a better day. The book come out, the book came out today.

So— Yes, sir.

We got a lot to talk about.

Absolutely. Number one, congratulations on the book. That's such an incredible thing. It's one thing that I've always, I've always said I want to do at some point.

Right.

But it takes a lot. And so can you talk to me about that process and how you got into wanting to actually do the book? And then what was your process going through and actually completing it?

You know, since I got in the league, you know, you go through ups and downs to find out what you wanna do. I did a lot of different things. And I always said, I wanna do a book. And that was about 10 years ago. And then, you know, the pandemic and this and that, We got it in right in the middle of the pandemic, some kind of way. But I just wanna show people something about me, my ins and outs, 18 years on the court, stuff I done to help people, just family growing up. I wanna give people the real insight about me. There been a lot of people talking about stories, and then the book is full of stories, and you gonna go crazy when you start reading the book, if you haven't read the book yet. It's just a lot about me. It's like me and you talked before, you can see this in the book. Frank Azzolo, you know, he wrote the book, did a great job. And you know, he was a beat writer when I played. So he really had inside scoops on me. It was a great combo. It's like two guys, two male singers come together and making a song. That's how this book is.

Absolutely. And getting deeper off into the book, because I have checked out some, some of the things coming out. And for those of you that don't know, Uncle Oak to me, Charles Oakley to you.

Right.

He recently just dropped a book, "The Last Enforcer." Yes. Well, it actually came out today. So make sure y'all get that however you get your books, whether that's on Amazon, whether that's you're listening to the audiobooks, however it is that you get your books, make sure you go out and buy that. We need that on the New York Times bestseller list. So let's make sure we get that there. But, And going deeper into the book, I think what I love most and why I'm excited to really get all the way through it is, you talked about what I love most. You talked about slapping the hell outta some guys. Yeah, I did. So, you know, talk to me about that.

I mean, in this book, like I say, you know, you have some run-ins on the court, off the court. I kept it consistent. So yeah, I did slap some guys. And in this book, you know, the details, You know, back in the early '80s when you came in the league, you know, they was trying to test you. So I had to man up and let 'em know, you can't pass my test 'cause I'm gonna let you know. But yeah, I had some run-ins and some people, yeah, they got smacked around a little bit.

And in this book, you talk about Tyrone Hill owing you $20,000. And what did you do when he owed you $20,000, Uncle Oak?

So basically, you know, we was in Atlanta one week, one summer, and you know, I know he played for Cleveland, you know, he went to school in Ohio, and you know, just, I know this guy, he played in the league, he wasn't going, so he was doing something, and I was in the same place he was at. He said, "Lend me the money." I lend him the money, and one thing led to another one. He said when the season started, when he see me, he'll give it to me. He didn't. It was training camp. Season. It went all the way a whole year into the next playoff. And then people started wondering— in the middle of that story was we went to Philly and, you know, shootaround, and then you come back for the game on 5:30, quarter to 5. So I got to my locker in Philly and somebody had sent me some flowers. And I looked at the flowers and they said, "To Charles Oakley," da da da. So I tore my name off it and put, "From Charles Oakley to Draymond Green." So I gave the ball boy $100 to put in his locker. So he put it in his locker. I said, "Give me a reaction once he come in the locker room." So the ball boy was standing there when he came in the locker room. He said he walked in the locker room, turned the corner, he started smiling 'cause he sees a flower in his locker, right? He said when he started reading the note and see Charles Oakley, he started coughing and told him he had, you know, he was under the weather, he went back home. What?

Yes.

True story. Next time you go to Philly, ask the head of the trainer, the light-skinned guy with the curly hair. I forgot his name, but he's still there. He's still there.

Wow. That's insane.

Yeah, that is insane.

So he didn't play that night?

No, he didn't. No, he played—

Wow. There it is. The last enforcer, running guys off the court, literally. I know, but obviously, You know, I wanted to start off with that just because I think it's interesting. And quite frankly, you can't slap the hell out of a guy nowadays in the NBA. You get thrown under the jail.

Yeah, they give you 2 or 3 games. Back then, I mean, they did a lot of stuff, but like I said, the rules have changed and you try to play clean. I mean, I don't think too many guys really gonna go there. So like I said, like a fight, you know who you fight, you know who you fighting against. When it get to that now, it won't be in the court, it'll be somewhere in another place. So yeah, it's a different space now. Like you said, guys don't, they just, it's no, you know, nobody gonna get into it on the court. You know, they might come in their face and walk away. That's about it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What do you think about the league today? 'Cause I know a lot of guys get mad when guys like yourself, the guys who came before us say the league is soft. And the reality is, well, I would love to hear your opinion 'cause I know I have my opinion on the league soft and I don't quite get mad when that's said, but a lot of guys do. What do you think? What do you make of that, of the league being soft today?

Well, I said it's a different time. They don't play the same. It's not a lot of body on body. I think that you gotta play what's going on. You know, the music changed, NFL done changed, everything changed. It's 20 years later and everything gonna keep on changing. You know, it might come back to big guys in the post. You go to the post in and out. But right now it's a 3-point shooting game. It's a transition game. So I think the guys should be able to play longer 'cause there's not that much contact. But I think that you gotta take care of your body no matter when you play, whatever, you still have to take care of your body.

Absolutely.

So I think it's, hey, "It's the young guys' time, you know, let 'em play." I mean, people still coming to watch, people still, you know, the numbers going up, so somebody watching.

Absolutely. You know, I think one interesting thing for me and what I look at, you know, like we talked about the last enforcer, but enforcers, and I think my two top enforcers ever happen to come from the same school, and that's you and Ben Wallace, who's also—

Oh, Ben.

You know, like big brother to me, kind of took me under his wing and coming up, coming up in Michigan. What was you and Ben's relationship like? 'Cause I know he came after you, but did y'all have a relationship coming out with him coming through Virginia Union and you going through Virginia Union as well?

Number one, I'm the one had camp in Alabama. My aunt and my sister asked me to have a camp and Ben came to my camp. And he was like 30 miles away and the camp was only $25. And, you know, down South, it's a lot of people, low-income families. And I was, then the first year I was charging $25. Most, it was like 150 kids, maybe only about 40 kids could pay. So after that, I cut out, I just made it free for the rest of the time. So Ben came and he said he was going, you know, he was a senior. Yeah. He was gonna go to Auburn or LSU, some type of way. He ended up going to, we took him to Tri-C in Cleveland, community college, for a year.

Mm-hmm.

My friend Jeff Warren, he was my assistant with my camp, 'cause he came down from Cleveland with me, 'cause he had family in Alabama too. But he came to Tri-C for a year, and after that, he went to Virginia Union. Jeff was the coach at Tri-C. And I told Jeff, I would take care if you let get him up there. So he took Ben, Tri-C, and he went for a whole year. He just go to my mother's house. I used to get him clothes, da da da. He went to Virginia Union, same thing. But once he got to Union, he found himself and, you know, he was undersized. He didn't get drafted. He was a free agent. He just kept working. That's one thing about, you know, people in the South, they work hard and they don't let nothing get in their way. They see, you know, I guess he's seen that. He might get a chance to go overseas. And then he went overseas, he came back to Boston, then he went to Washington, then next thing you know, Orlando, end up in Detroit. And you know, he put a lot of work in and just got put in the Hall of Fame. Did great for himself.

Absolutely, absolutely. And we're kind of working backwards here, obviously, in your life, and obviously starting with the book and, you know, talking through college. But I also wanna get into some of your playing career. And obviously that was being drafted the 9th overall pick by the Chicago Bulls. Which means you then cross over with a very young Michael Jordan. What was your first impressions of Michael Jordan at that time when you first saw him? Obviously we know what he became, but what was those, your thoughts then?

You know, coming from a historic Black college, and get drafted in the top 10, like you said, my eye was just, "Hey, come in, work, work, work." You know, and then when I got a chance to meet him, we was playing pickup and it was August right before training camp. You know, guys come in early, whatever. And, you know, he was always about business. And I was, like I said, there doing my craft and working on my game and showing them I wanted to be there. And some type of way, training camp started, we just seemed to get closer and closer and— Yeah. Next thing you know, you know, we started just hanging, hanging. He took me to All-Star in Dallas and took me under his wings and we've been tight ever since. And if you look at the book, you know, he did the foreword, you know? So hey, we still jiggling.

Absolutely, which is incredible. Not many people can say they get a foreword from Michael Jordan, man. That's insane.

Yeah, that's like winning a Grammy. I mean, winning an award, an Emmy or something, so.

Absolutely.

It's good to have a friend like that. And I know you got a lot of them. I know when you do write your book, you gonna have a great person do the foreword. I already know. I appreciate that. You in good space with a lot of good players.

Thank you, I appreciate that. And I said we're working backwards and I skipped over something I actually wanted to ask about. And the reason I wanna ask this, I was actually very outspoken about one person in particular. And that was James Dolan.

I already know what you talking about.

When the situation with you happened in New York at the Knicks game, I didn't appreciate you. Number one, I think there's a way legends should be treated. And not only legends, people should be treated. People should be treated. But when you are a legend, let's not fake it here. You know, there are different levels to things in this world and there are totem poles and hierarchies. And that's just the way life is. Certain things should not happen. And obviously we all know what happened, but has that been righted? And obviously it can never, like, you can never take the situation back. Like you can never change it. But do you feel like that situation has been righted by you?

I said, first of all, I wanna thank you for standing up. And I know, you know, you do a lot for a lot of people, but when you did that, LeBron, Wade, a lot of other guys, you know, guys who, know one another, who know what should be right. Y'all stood up for me. I really appreciate that.

Absolutely.

But in the light of that, it's still a shaky situation because we haven't came to a conclusion. It's still in the court of law. This man, you know, it was bad what he did in front of that many people and didn't care. It was a hit in front of, you know, money was involved. He feel like he got billions of dollars, can do what he want. But it's just sad to see someone doing something like that in this day and time. And we going through so much and it just ain't right. And we gonna see it, it gonna play out, it gonna come out right because like I said, I didn't do nothing wrong, you know?

Mm-hmm.

'Cause if I did, I would've been man enough to have a press conference and speak and say, "Hey, all y'all who had my back, I'm sorry I was wrong, but trust me." he was wrong.

Absolutely. And I don't doubt that. I look forward to that day coming because I think everybody should get what they're due. And so I look forward to that day happening.

Yes.

For you, for African Americans as a whole, for legends like yourself who are mistreated in some of these organizations, you go around some of these organizations, guys put their bodies on the line.

Yes.

You give up time with your children, you give up time with your family. And like, yeah, the money is great, but money isn't everything. You know, how you're treated as a human being goes way further than money. So I want to continue to watch this play out, but hopefully see you get what you're due so that it can set a precedent for guys who's done all of these things for these organizations. But, and speaking of James Dolan and the New York Knicks, you then, you get traded from the Chicago Bulls to the New York Knicks. —now, whereas you've built this relationship with Michael Jordan, y'all are like this. As an enforcer in the type and the way you play, how was that then playing against Mike? You gotta lay Mike out when he come to the hole and he not stopping.

Nah, well, you know, I tell everybody, you know, once I got traded to New York, my attitude was to change no matter who I was playing against. I had to do the same thing, play defense, clog the middle, and let 'em know that it's still, You can't come down the lane, I'm still here. So we didn't have no problem. He took it as business. He took it as every day, you know, I'm going to war. And when we played against the Bulls, I didn't see him that much. He shot a lot of jump shots. So my game was the same. You come in the paint, Mike, no. You know, I used to practice against him sometime. No matter. If Jersey, if Jersey's opposite color come, I gotta step up. And that's my job, take charge of it. Mm-hmm. And you know, defense, my defense, I was the anchor in New York and we had a real good defense. So I was in the top 5 and everything. So Michael worked on his jump shot once I got traded. 'Cause he knew that he had to pull up. He had to pull up. So in his book, yeah, he talked a lot of trash about, "Yeah, I was born at the wrong time." But yeah, you know, hey, he knew if he came down that lane, he was gonna have to pay a toll.

I like to think, a guy who I have a similar relationship with, who's a big brother of mine, who taken me under his wing, and not only on the court, but in business, in life off the court, also a nephew of yours, LeBron James. I think he had to work on his goddamn jump shot when I came in this league too now. Right. No, but I think, you know, there's always been, I totally understand that, 'cause there's always been this thing made of me and LeBron. And I mean, even before I signed with Klutch, you know, like, And then I signed with Clutch. Like, how can Draymond sign with Clutch? They hate each other and this, that, and the other. And the reality is we've never hated each other. Maybe when I first came into the league, like my first year or two.

Respect game.

'Cause you're fighting for respect, but it was never a lack of respect thing. It was just more of a, I don't know you, you don't really know me. But we quickly got to know each other and we've been building a relationship since. And people, they can't wrap their head around it. How does these guys play? Or LeBron drives, Draymond fouls him hard. Me getting suspended from a game with a situation with LeBron, all of these things. And people can't really wrap their head around it. And I always say—

Well, sometimes it ain't for people, you know? Hey, you know the deal, LeBron know the deal. Like they said, with me and Mike, I mean, it's business. You know, you trying to win just as LeBron trying to win. Mike wanna win, I wanna win. So at the end of the day, shake a hand and go separate ways.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And speaking of yourself, those Knicks teams, you obviously had a great big man with you in Patrick Ewing. And just looking at the shift in the big men today, like our—

Right.

I would say our two most dominant centers in the league, and I don't think anyone would argue it, and if they would, they're crazy. Our two most dominant centers in the league are Joel Embiid and Nikola Jokic, and they play a totally different way.

Way, yeah.

Than Patrick Ewing, than a Shaquille O'Neal, then even, I mean, Hakeem a little bit, Joel got some Hakeem in him, but even Joel is shooting the 3 and doing a lot more off the dribble. What do you make of the shift of the big man? And you hit on it a little bit earlier, but what do you make of the shift in how the big man operates?

I mean, you gotta play with what the team scheme is, your team skill. Allow you to float around the 3-point line. Like, you know, Joker, he's— the offense go through him. Uh, uh, the offense go through him, but he, he do go to the post. Both of them end up in the post sometime, probably 40%, but the offense go through both of the big guys. And like I said, it's a spread offense game now, and when your big guys can dribble like, you know, a small forward, that's better for your team. So if I was playing the game today, I'll play a zone 'cause they gonna come to you anyway.

Yeah.

So, but I mean, like you said, these guys got some skills for big guys, probably more than the guys when we played, except for King Olajuwon, can do a lot, you know, free throw line extended. So you gotta give 'em the credit. I mean, they can still play with the small forwards, being a center, anchor center playing small forward. That's the way I look at it. And the way you play, it's just like, you know, you like a Scottie, you know, you do everything for your team. You set the picks, you do the roll, you get your triple doubles. I mean, you bring energy and, you know, same thing you did for Michigan State, you know.

Thank you.

And, you know, I mean, I went to see y'all play several times when, you know, we was in school. The dude, your game would travel to the NBA because what you can do. A point forward, like, and that's what the game is right now.

Absolutely. And for you, who was the toughest person when you were playing that you had to guard?

Well, I mean, I didn't look at none of them tough. I just feel like when a guy getting 20, 25 times in the post, like a Shaq, a Karl Malone, you know, Barkley, Mikhail was more of an in-between post and mid-range jump shooter. But I mean, my job, when you get a guy who average 30 points, hold him to half of the points that night and you know, just play, just play with force.

Absolutely. And I'm sure you watch at least a little bit of the game today, if not a lot.

Yeah.

But when you're watching the game today, who's that guy that you see and you like, I would fucking love to guard him?

I mean, AD when he healthy, 'cause he's so crafty, he can do so much. That's a challenge. He can, you know, put the ball on the floor, he can shoot the 3. I would like to check a B, 'cause he big, he mobile. I mean, I like checking big guys, you know, just to see where I'm at, you know?

Absolutely.

Probably them 2 guys, I would love to, you know, check them in this day and age. LeBron, I would like to play LeBron 'cause we the same size. Just to see the shrimp against shrimp. I mean, like I said, you like LeBron, like LeBron. I just like what he do on the court and off the court. He carry himself with style.

No, 100%. And actually in your book, you said you knew LeBron was gonna leave Cleveland the first time. Why is that? Why was that?

That summer, I was around then, but when the season start, You know, they played back to back. So they played that Friday and Saturday, but they played in Orlando first. And I came down there and just hang out with him, you know, he like to eat steaks, hang out, drink a little red wine. And then after the game, he said, you know, I knew they was going to Miami. I told him I was coming down there. But at night he was just, I said, you know, I said, "Y'all play after the game tomorrow, y'all go to Miami?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "You know, I'm coming down there." He said, "I like Miami, I'm gonna go there." Yeah, I said, "Really?" He said, "Yeah, I think I'm gonna go to Miami." And it was just like the first game into the season.

Oh, wow.

So yeah. And in this book we talk about other things too. But when I got to Miami that night at halftime, 'cause Pat Riley had his own suite, I said, "Somebody said he's coming out here." He said, "Okay." I said, "You might be playing against him." He just said, "Hahaha." You know, so I told him, "Yeah, it's LeBron." He said, "Oh, okay." And do you think Pat believed you when you said that? I'm honest guy. I mean, he might not say it, you know, but he probably not never said, but I think he did.

That's interesting.

I know they had to do the numbers, this and that, but I might made him really go put the numbers in the computer and see how they come out. He probably went and did that and said, "Oh wow, that makes sense." That's interesting.

That's interesting. LeBron tells somebody that today and sources will be all over the place talking about LeBron.

Yeah, but you know, when somebody you a good friend, you don't, you know, like you said, People probably like, "It didn't get out a whole year?" I mean, nope. I mean, you know how good them guys are.

Absolutely.

You know, they tell you something, ain't for everybody else to know.

100%.

And that's why we, you know, I've been cool with all of them from day one, you know? So when he invited me to his wedding, you know, it showed he trusted me.

Absolutely. That's one of the ultimate things you can do for someone. Invite them to your wedding, invite them into your home. You open up your home to someone, that's the ultimate respect.

Yeah, you know how they do it. They do it big.

Absolutely. Malvo, I'm not even gonna say what Malvo always say, 'cause I know people will take it and they'll run with it.

Oh yeah, you ain't gonna steal it from him.

I don't care. Malvo always tell me, "Draymond, many have done it, but not many has done it better." And I agree 100% with what they've done as young African American men paving the way for the next generation. And not only the next generation, for the guys like myself, who's coming up. I'm not very far behind LeBron in age. You know, it's not like I'm some totally different generation. For what he's done and Mav and Rich and Randy.

Randy.

PR, the whole crew and just what they've done for us as African Americans, which goes way further than just us as athletes. I'm extremely appreciative of. And one thing I hate most is when people say, "I'mma be just like them." Or, you know, "With my guy, I'mma be just—" And it goes so much further than that. You know, you're talking some of the smartest guys around, you know, some of the hardest working guys around. So I have a huge appreciation for those guys.

Well, I think in the book, when I talk about him and Michael towards the end of my book, it's so much like love. It's a love fest, really. 'Cause I know both of 'em so well. And LeBron is probably the only athlete playing a sport and being a billionaire, and why he still playing. I mean, that totally show you what he doing. It's incredible.

Absolutely.

And like I said, that whole crew, and he held 'em accountable, put all of 'em in a space. You do this, you do this. And they working it. Like I said, Mav is running an empire. He put Rich in a position with the agent and Randy, and they just all holding, holding theyself up. And I give them a lot of credit.

100%. In your book, you also spoke about kicking Dennis Rodman out of a steakhouse in South Beach. Walk me through that. 'Cause I got a lot of respect for Dennis Rodman. And he done went at me a couple times. I didn't quite understand it, but I still have respect and love for him. But I definitely gotta hear about this one, Uncle.

So basically, you know, You know, in the book, I'm gonna tell you this one, but it's many more in the book about him, but this one was like, wow. So we in South Beach at the Gansborough on Collins. We did an appearance together from like 2 to 4, and we finished up, you know, has time to kill. He was like, "What you doing tonight?" I said, "I'm going to my steakhouse." We had a steakhouse in South Beach on Washington. He said, "Okay." He said, "I will meet you there around 7:30, quarter to 8." You know, time go past, 7 o'clock, I'm getting ready to go to the steakhouse. So I stopped at Prime 112 'cause it's right 2 blocks apart. So I'm in there talking to Miles about 7:15, da-da-da, this and that. 7:20, the manager of Red Steakhouse called me, "Oh, get here." I said, "What's going on?" "You wouldn't believe what Dennis doing." I said, "What he doing?" He said, "Eating off people plates." I said, "What?" So I tell Miles, "I'll be back." So I walk around there. So I get around there, I look through the shade, I look through the window, and he was just like— Mm-hmm. Next day, hmm, like, oh shit, really? I walk in there, I need a beat, I went straight to him. I like, Dennis, what is you doing? So I'm just relaxing and trying to, you know, entertain. I said, I said, uh! And walked him outside and threw it. I said, don't you never come around me again in life.

Wow, and where did y'all relationship go from there?

Like, don't come around me again in life.

And he ain't came around since.

So in the book, another thing come up, but you know, you got the book, so the next thing is crazy too.

Absolutely.

So it's crazy though, but—

I gotta finish the book.

The manager's like, "Oh, I'm so glad you came over here, man." 'Cause he was just, you know, I guess he was just trying to be funny, but no, this a high-status, you know, business, and you don't do that, Dennis.

Absolutely.

Not with my name on it.

Absolutely, no, 100%, I respect that.

Great player, he changed the game in a way, but off the court, he's a different guy. I get him on the court, off the court, no, not no more. I gave him respect 'cause we played the same position. We know how hard it is to play that position. And when you not demanding the ball every game, you just got to stop the other team to get the ball.

Absolutely.

One of the best to do that, but off the court is a different story.

No, 100%. I think we all know, I mean, we've just seen the stories. Obviously we don't know like you know, but we've seen the stories all over the place. But then obviously in "The Last Dance" as well. But Uncle Oak, I know you gotta get outta here. I don't wanna take much more of your time as much as I'm enjoying this. But I do have to ask you one last thing because I think the world need to know this. And you know, maybe some people do, but I don't know if everyone knows.

Right.

But I need you to talk to them about you cooking, Uncle Oak. And I still have not had the opportunity to have that cooking yet.

I told you several times, even in the finals when y'all beat my Cavaliers that year, we was in there at the bar, at the steakhouse. What steakhouse?

We were at Morton's Steakhouse. Morton's Steakhouse.

They have a hotel. And I told you, at Rich House, we got, I keep telling you, whenever you want me to come over and cook whatever you want, you know I did that on Chopping It Up with the guy Green, them, from Flint. But whenever you want this oak, real, real dessert, main, you know, fine dining, whatever you want, hey, I'll be in LA, Super Bowl, so let me know. Oh, okay, so— I'll come down there. I know you gonna be down at home, your home game or something.

Absolutely.

I'll come by there.

I'll be in LA at that time. 'Cause we play the Clippers a day after the Super Bowl. Okay.

In LA. Hey, we got time. We can do this.

Yes, sir. Appreciate this.

Thanks for bringing me on the show.

Thank you, Uncle Oak. I appreciate you coming on.