In a lively ESPN Get Up round‑table hosted by Mike Greenberg, panelists Kendrick Perkins, Jay Williams, Vince Goodwill, Draymond Green and guest Draymond Green discuss the NBA playoffs, focusing on Victor Wembanyama’s historic performance and whether he is already "the league". Greenberg opens with Wembanyama’s unprecedented conference‑final stats (20+ points and a block in all seven games, joining Shaq and Hakeem). The panel debates if Wembanyama’s impact makes him the league’s face, comparing him to past icons (Shaq, Hakeem, Jordan, Curry, Jokic, Dirk) and noting his defensive versatility. They explore how an "incomplete" superstar reshapes team‑building strategies, arguing that future rosters must account for a player who can guard all five positions. The conversation shifts to the New York Knicks, with Jalen Brunson’s playoff scoring feats highlighted, and a clash of opinions on whether a smaller guard can be a true "1A" (top‑player) capable of winning a championship. Draymond Green repeatedly asserts that the East is inferior to the West, coining the phrase "get out of the East" as a prerequisite for a title, while others counter with historical examples of teams overcoming perceived disadvantages (Curry, Jokic, Dirk). The panel also touches on the NBA’s growing international footprint, noting Wembanyama’s global popularity. Throughout, the discussion balances statistical evidence, historical analogies, and personal opinions about what defines league dominance and how it influences future roster construction.
Chapters
Victor Wembenyama and San Antonio dethroning the Thunder on Saturday. So the Wemby era has overtaken the West in just his third season in the league. The Frenchman leading the Spurs to a come-from-behind series win over the defending champions, bringing out a wide range from emotions from him on the court as he takes a step closer to realizing his dream. Let me show you some numbers. Victor Wembenyama finished every game of the conference final with at least 20 points and a block. He's the third player since blocks became official in '74 to do that in all 7 games of a conference final, joining Shaq and Hakeem Olajuwon. Here was Wemby after the game.
You work all these hours we put in, it's for these type of emotions. Like, I want that. I want to win so bad. It's like my life depends on it.
Victor Wembanyama, J-Will, Vinny Goodwill, and the big fella, Big Perk. I'll start with you. What are the right things to say?
Greeny, Greeny.
Yes, yes, sir. Yes, yes.
Greeny, Greeny, hold up, hold up, hold up. Good morning.
Okay.
I'm just trying to understand what's going on with my brother J-Will on this Monday morning. You know what I mean? Okay. Window shades in the back, man. We need to see some of them pictures back there, man. Some paintings or something, you know what I'm saying? If you gonna wake up, you gonna be on television. I need some, some, some, a real background. There we go. Show me something. Show me something. There we go.
There we go.
Okay, okay.
National Player of the Year or something like that. All right, that's pretty good. Not a bad flex to get started in the morning. All right, but, but, but Big Perk, like, The question that came up this morning among some of us that we were talking is, is it Wemby's league already? Here he is in year 3, he's in the final, he's 22 years old. Is it already his league right this minute? Perk, yes or no?
Hell no, Greeny. Can he complete the mission first? Can he actually win a championship? Can he win a regular season MVP first? Last time I checked, we on the verge of having What, are 8 different NBA champions on the way now?
Mm-hmm.
No one has won back-to-back in 8 years. Can he win multiple championships before we start crowning him that it's his league? I'm not taking anything away from Wimby's greatness, what he done against the Thunder, putting the champs to bed, but now he has to go out and complete the mission, and on top of that, he gotta show me that he can do it again, at least within the next 2 years, if he gets it done this year. So again, yes, his— he has no ceiling. I understand that, but we have to stop jumping the gun. And I gotta wait for Wemby to go ahead and do what he gotta do, and that's defeat the New York Knicks to bring home a championship back to San Antonio.
What do you say, Jason? And I say that because it said it on your trophy. It said Jason, which threw me off for a moment until I remembered that's actually your name. Go ahead.
Sorry.
What is it? Wemby Nyama's league right now, J-Will.
I, I wouldn't say it's his league, Grady. I think it being your league and being the face of the league are two different things. And with everything transpiring with NBA Europe and the league expanding an international footprint, that the international players have had dominance over this league in a while, I do think he is becoming the face of the league. I mean, just think about this for a second. Wilt Chamberlain was a cheat code for his era. That means Victor Wembanyama is the software update, right? Like, we're watching something that is supposed to not exist in the game of basketball. And yes, he has to complete the mission. But what we're seeing him at the youngest age be All-NBA First Team and be in the NBA Finals, the youngest player in NBA history to do so. If he completes the mission, then we will— it won't be where the— if Wemby can be an all-time great. It then will be— the narrative changes to where does Wemby stack up on the all-time great list? And we will be having those conversations.
Go.
We will be having those conversations whether he wins or loses this series. If he wins the series, he's in the conversation with Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, guys who won in year 1, 2, or 3.
Right.
I think Greeny, the conversation is gonna be more around where do you build your team? How do you build your teams now moving forward? Because they've gotten to the finals with Wemby as an incomplete product. So now you have to look in ways that you didn't have to look with SGA being an MVP or Jokic being an MVP. You have to build your team with the thought, what do we do about this guy? And there isn't a Wemby stopper. Mm-hmm. Just like there was no such thing as a Shaq stopper when Shaq was in his absolute prime. But you have to go through team building with the thought, we're gonna have to see this guy. And I think that's even greater than, face of the league, or if this is his league. He can win 4 more games, he can win 3 more games, but it's still going to influence team building from this point forward.
Perk. Vinny, did you just say they made it to the Finals with an incomplete roster?
No, no, no.
No, no, he's got more room to grow.
He's going to become.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, my bad, my bad, my bad, Vinny, I missed you. I was ready to get on your ass like back pockets, but we all good. Okay, well then— Here's the thing, Green.
Hold on.
Yes.
Big Perk, then let me get on yours, if I may. And I'm very comfortable doing so when you're not here in the studio and thus can't squash me like a bug. I'll say this right now. Sometimes we overcomplicate stuff. You know, we overcomplicate stuff. The nuance. Is he the face of the this? Is he the— This is Victor Wembanyama's league right now. I don't care what anybody says. He's the best player. He's the most impactful player. He's the most popular player. He's the most important player. He's the most talked-about player. He's doing things that we've literally never seen anyone do before. He guards all 5 positions. They used to say LeBron could guard all 5 positions on the defensive end. Not at once! He can actually guard all 5 of them at the same time. And yes, he is an incomplete offensive player, but you can already see the building blocks of what it is going to become. In my opinion, Victor Wembanyama is the most impactful and best player in the league right now. He's certainly the most popular. Internationally, it's not even close. [SPEAKING FRENCH] So I'm not sure what it is we're— where it is we're parsing words here. This is Victor Wembanyama's league whether they win this series or not.
Well, Greeny, lemme ask you a question.
Yeah.
Who's your GOAT? Who's your GOAT? Michael Jordan, correct?
Yes, correct.
Okay, okay. So did you crown Michael Jordan for it being his league before he actually completed the mission and won the NBA championship?
I don't think it was quite as clear with Michael. He was the best player. He might have been the best player in the league when he scored 63 points in Boston Garden in a series in which his team got swept. And Larry Bird afterwards said, that wasn't Michael Jordan, that was God disguised as Michael Jordan. Just like it was in 1999. It will be the Spurs and the Knicks in the finals. And this time, Jalen Brunson will be one of the centers of attention. He's got 5 30-point games this postseason. The Knicks are 5-0 in those games. Only 3 players have had more than 5 30-point games in a playoff run. For the Knicks. They include Brunson himself, Bernard King, and Willis-Reed. Back in January, Draymond Green said the Knicks were missing that one piece that would make them a championship team. And now he's standing his ground.
I double down on this. Just like Becky Hammond said, prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. Double down. Absolutely double down. Getting out of the East has never been a surefire to win a championship. What y'all talking about? You get out of the East, you're supposed to get out of the East.
It's the fucking East.
Of course you're supposed to get out of the East. That don't just mean you win a championship 'cause you get out of the East. It's the fucking East.
Big Perk, you have a, I'm trying to read the look on your face. What are you thinking as you hear Draymond talk?
Well, Draymond Green and Becky Hammond lying to me. They lying to me because Jalen Brunson is a 1A and the Knicks can win a championship with Jalen Brunson being their top dog when it comes to being one of the small guards, one of the small guards to get it done. And you talk about, oh, it's the East. Well, it's the West. It's the West. Last time I checked, didn't the San Antonio Spurs just beat OKC without one of their best players in Jalen Williams? Didn't OKC sweep the first 2 rounds playing against the Phoenix Suns and the Los Angeles Lakers without Luka Dončić? So let's not talk about what they went through and teams not being healthy. To win a championship, it takes luck. Last time I checked, Draymond Green, when he was facing the Houston Rockets, didn't Chris Paul, when they had control over that series, pull his hamstring? Didn't they get to the NBA Finals and Kyrie Irving, Kyrie Irving got injured, I believe it was in game 1 for they first championship. And by the way, let me end on this. Steph Curry didn't prove he was a 1A till he actually won his 4th NBA championship.
Oh, that's true.
That's when he got his Finals MVP as being the 1A, as being the 1A. If you wanna keep it real, that's why they had to go get Kevin Durant. That's why they had to go get Kevin Durant for the other two after that. That's why they had to go get him.
Perk, come on, man. I know this is not part of the rundown, but let's be clear here. What Becky Hammond was talking about, what Draymond Green was talking about, just the brass tacks of it. There's only two players at that size who are number one options to lead their teams to a championship. Stephen Curry and Isaiah Laura Thomas III. That's a very short list, and there's been a lot of guards throughout this league's history from the John Stocktons to the Steve Nashes to the Damian Lillards to—
Allen Iverson.
Like all those guys. It's not a shot to say if Jalen Brunson does this, he's going to be bucking NBA history. But let's not be intellectually dishonest and say that Stephen Curry was not the great player that he was before Kevin Durant got there. He got more refined, Perk, but don't disrespect the man like that. That's not fair.
So we got a little sidetracked, but I don't mind it. Let me get J. Will in here. Go ahead, J.
To you guys both here on this, it's almost like historical data doesn't support Draymond Green's argument, right? And you gave two pieces of information there, Vince, that actually went against it, right? So I know that the sample size is small, but remember the things that people said about Steph at first, that he was too small, that he couldn't defend, and then he beat that mold. Like, I know these other examples aren't like guys who are smaller, but remember what people said about Jokic?
Jokic.
To me, like, he was— it was too slow. He was too unathletic. He couldn't be a 1A. He needs support. Like, Dirk. Remember when Dirk was there? People like, oh, 7-footers who shoot jumpers, they never win championships. Like, the mold is always broken by an anomaly. And to sit up here and say that you can double down on it, that's fine. And that's what you believe. But like, these things are meant to be broken because it's a team sport. So let's not lose sight of that.
Perk, there's a lot of different conversations that we're having at once. So let me try and nail them down. I think that what Draymond is saying is that he's diminishing the East because he says that he obviously believes that the East is vastly inferior to the West. We call it the junior varsity, whatever you want. What Becky Hammond said was that you can't win a championship or something like this if your lead player is a smaller player, as Jalen Brunson obviously is. And Draymond Green had also said he didn't think you could win with Jalen Brunson as a 1A, 'cause he isn't a 1A. What is your response to those, Big Perk?
We would never disrespect AI and not call him a 1A. And I think we need to stop downplaying The fact that guys are able to lead their team to the promised land. First of all, getting to the NBA Finals is enough in itself. Some people play their entire career and never sniff the NBA Finals. Mm-hmm. Some people play their entire career and never sniff the postseason. So what Jalen Brunson has done in the toughest market in basketball, carrying this team and this organization on his shoulder, making them relevant. The New York Knicks hasn't been relevant since Moby Dick was a goldfish. And here it is, we have a guy that was drafted in the second round that came into this city and has got them back to the promised land. We have to stop, so that means we can sit up here and say, oh yeah, Charles Barkley, he wasn't a 1A. Karl Malone wasn't a 1A. Because they didn't complete the mission? That's the most, that's one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. Getting to the finals is enough in itself, as proven to be 0-1-8. Completing the mission is the ice cream on the side of the cake. Let's like stop playing with people name. Big Body Brunson is one of them.
Go ahead, Jake.
I just wanna say, Greeny, we all get a chance to sit courtside and watch incredible basketball games as part of this job. Like, and I know that people at home may not recognize this, but like from somebody who's 6'2", I think we drastically underappreciate what the hell we're watching, man. I don't think people have any— do you know what I look like when I stand next to KP?
Damn it.
Do you know what I look like?
Yeah.
I look like a tiny little person. For Jalen Brunson to do what he's doing amongst giants. At the level he's doing that, the disrespect that came out of Draymond Green's mouth is just like, it's global disrespect. It's global. Like, and I'm talking strictly to that. Like, you can say all the comments about the East, fine, I get it. But the position that he has his team in with what he's doing at 6'1.5", 6'2", the shot-making ability he has, that's why I said before, I think he has a chance to be the greatest Knick ever. Because when you don't, you don't see this. Ask AI, bring Isaiah on this show and ask Zeke how difficult it was for him at 6'2" to do what the hell he had to do against Jordan and Scottie Pippen, who we'll talk about later, who's 6'7", who can match up against anybody. It's unheard of, Greenie. And it pisses me off to hear people just disrespect it over and over again.
