Draymond Green on Wemby's Physicality, NBA Finals, Beef w/ KOC & More

Very special guest today on the Kevin O'Connor Show. We got Draymond Green, 4-time champion, future Hall of Famer, and podcaster, host of the Draymond Green Show.

Draymond, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me, Kevin. I really appreciate it.

So we just watched Game 3 of the NBA Finals last night at Madison Square Garden. You were there with the ABC, ESPN crew. Knicks win streak broken. They're not gonna match your 15-game win streak that you guys had in 2017. Is there a piece of you happy, Draymond?

No, you know, I think records are made to be broken. I thought it was fun watching them kind of go on this run. I don't think anyone expected that type of run when we were watching this team play against the Atlanta Hawks. You know, we obviously expected them to figure it out and win that series and even make a deep playoff run. But I don't know that any of us thought we'd be sitting here on what, June 9th, saying, man, this is the first time they've lost since April 23rd.

Draymond Green.

You know, and so I give those guys a lot of credit, man. It's been really fun to watch, but I don't, I try not to get off into like, oh man, I don't want these guys to break our records. I don't wanna be one of the old bitter guys.

So last night I felt like watching the game that we didn't see as much of that side-to-side Knicks offense. We saw the drive, the beautiful game Knicks in Game 2 with that drive and kick sequence they had. There wasn't as much of that in Game 3. It felt like the Knicks offense was more mucked up What were you seeing from the Spurs defense from a tactical standpoint that did force the Knicks to play more of that stagnant style?

Well, I thought a couple things happened. Number one was they made it a little funky with their matchups with KAT. And so when KAT caught the ball on the perimeter, you got Devin Vassell, even at times Stephon Castle, they're underneath him, they're pressuring the hell out of him. We had a coach, Jarron Collins, who's now in New Orleans. He used to call it high school pressure. You know, high school, a guy just get on her, and they're going crazy, right? He called it like high school pressure. They're applying high school pressure to KAT at the top of the key. And I didn't love that just because they were applying that pressure, the Knicks went away from it. Because KAT's so much bigger than those guys. And KAT always has the ball like this. So if he just palms the ball like this, he kind of in a sense relieves the pressure just by— Loving the palm of the ball. Absolutely. And so he relieves the pressure just like that. They were doing this funky thing where they were having those guys guard him up top. The moment he'd get off the ball and start rolling in the paint, Wimby's on the backside, they're kicking that guy out. And now, so when he goes to the post, that Wimby's guarding him. Well, that's their way of combating not having Wimby out at the top of the key with Cat, because that's a recipe for disaster for the Spurs. So in turn, they went back to their old offense that they had been running, which is Jalen Brunson, ball dominant in front of the defense, the entire defense loaded up and looking at you. And Jalen Brunson didn't play awful, but it wasn't the most impactful 32 points. You know, it was a lot of shots.

A lot of shots.

Yeah.

Very inefficient.

You know, it's, and, More importantly, you didn't get Mikal Bridges going. Now he got the early 2 fouls right. But Josh Hart got going. OG Anunoby got going. But the key to this playoff run has been Karl-Anthony Towns. And what, he shot his first shot in the second quarter or late in the first quarter? That doesn't work.

And no points again in the fourth quarter either.

Like that doesn't work. The reason they've been able to, win and stymie Wimby on the offensive end is because he had the guard on the defensive end. He wasn't just playing one side of the ball. Last night he got to play one side of the ball. And if they're gonna allow him to do that, this series can flip and get hard for the Knicks. But they gonna have to figure the offense out and get back to running the ball through the high post because just James Harden is the best ever that we've seen play that style offense where it's one guy with the ball at a time.

Took you guys to the brink. Nah, he just doesn't get enough credit for that. But that's against these great teams, isn't it?

Like took us to the brink, right? Ultimately they never beat us. So if he's the best ever at that brand of offense, he's the best by a long shot we've ever seen. And they weren't able to quite get over the hump. No one else is gonna be able to do it.

And this is why it was so important, as you said earlier, when the Knicks were down 2-1 against the Hawks, they flipped their whole season, putting the ball in the Cat's hands, playing more in motion. Brunson was setting off-ball screens, popping out for threes. There was getting cuts for OG and Anunoby. They were playing with more flow, more layers to their offense. So I'm curious, like you mentioned they're playing high school defense. That's a really good term for the way they were defending Cat. He had 63 touches in game 1, 64 touches in game 2. 45 in game 3. What can Mike Brown do to counter that type of defense the Spurs are playing against KAT considering how important it is for KAT to get those touches?

Well, I think, and by the way, to put that into perspective for the average fan, 18 less touches is probably 6 less double teams he calls. And he passes well out of the double teams. 6 less double team slash reactions that he forced the defense to make, that he caused, like driving through Wemby, all that. Probably, let's call it on the low end, 2 to 3 buckets. And probably 2 to 3 assists, just on the low end, right? All of those things due to those less touches, you're not causing a reaction, which in turn allows Wemby to sit back there and play center field. And so there's that. You have to figure that out. What I think can be done is you have to run some frontside action when they have someone on Karl-Anthony Towns. Probably with Josh Hart in the act.

What does that mean for the casuals?

So for the casual fan, there's two sides of the floor, right? Two sides of the floor, then you have the middle of the floor. Frontside action mean, I may want to run an action over here to get that first domino to fall. And then I swing the ball to the other side of the floor. And now we run another action on that backside. So actually you, you start getting dual actions into your offense to make that first domino fall. Now when you make that first domino fall and you get a switch with Wimby on the front side and you swing it to the other side and now you get Cat going in some action on the other side. Wimby can't just sit back there and play center field because you've caused the first reaction, you caused the first switch, and now it just throws it off a bit, you know? But if he's sitting at the block on the backside and then Cat rolls down and he's just like, "Oh, bump out," it's too stagnant, right? And so you're not causing a reaction. He's just sitting back there kicking someone out. You need to get him in an action first, then get the ball to the other side where Cat can now make the play, get into an action, cause a reaction. Now if Wimby wants to come, because he switched and now he's up there and he wants to come, down in the paint so he could protect the rim. That's what they were doing in the first half. And that's why you were seeing all those Landry Shamet swing threes, OG Anunoby, Mikal Bridges, swing, swing threes. That's how they were getting all those open threes is because they were causing a reaction. Wemby has to go. Now someone else has to rotate and they boom, boom, three. You saw last night, Landry Shamet was trying to take that escape dribble and get a three off because that swing, swing wasn't there anymore.

Wasn't able to catch and shoot.

Absolutely. Because you never got that first domino to fall. And so if you can, the way you can get that first domino to fall is get the action on the front side, get Cat on the backside. So it's just not status quo passing the guy off. And ultimately the guy you're passing him off to is Wimby.

It's fascinating. Like obviously like you've been in these series and you've experienced these little micro adjustments teams make. Like to, to, to my eye, like right from the opening possessions of the game, it felt like the Spurs were trying to attack downhill more aggressively with Stephon Castle in part to get him to score. But also to cause rotation.

Yeah.

And that would lead to some lobs to Victor Wembenyama. Victor Wembenyama in this Game 3, 14 of his 18 shot attempts were assisted opportunities. Compared to Games 1 and 2 combined, 20 of his 42 were assisted opportunities. So about half to three-quarters of them became assisted opportunities. Was there something tactically you saw that the Spurs were doing offensively to get Wemby those at-rim assisted chances?

Well, I thought number one, they were more aware because I thought in first—

Of the 8-foot guy, just like get him the ball, just throw it up to him.

You watched in the first couple games and it's like, yo, they had a Bob opportunity there and wasn't necessarily looking for it. They came in making a concerted effort to get him the ball and to get him the ball at the front of the rim.. Which is what the Knicks have been doing, right? Like Karl-Anthony Towns up until last night, I'm not sure how many threes he taken last night, but he has 7 3-point attempts through 2 games. That's not typical cat. He was doing all his damage in the paint. The Spurs flipped the script. How can we get Wimby to the front of the rim? And you know what the answer is? Get the ball out of his hands, right?

Mm-hmm.

They, at first couple games, he had the ball so many times in his hands. And you saw a couple times last night, He started getting dribble heavy. And then it was almost like, they've talked about this and it was like, ah, he go pitch the ball to the side, go into a ball screen, roll down to the paint, get to the front of the rim. And so they, you could tell that they made a real effort to do that. However, in any of these series, when they've gotten in trouble, they look to Wemby first. And Wemby gets dunks, Wemby gets going, and then everybody else gets going. So all of a sudden, Wimby starts the game off with 2 or 3 dunks. Outta nowhere, Stephon Castle starts hitting threes. Then he hits mid-range.

Oh.

Draymond Green shows up, start hitting threes. Well, yeah, because everyone has to converge on the paint and try to stop Wimby at the rim, and you're kicking it out. See, the first couple games, he had the ball up top so much, and all of the ball screens were coming in the middle of the floor. He's rolling down the paint and it's like bumper cars. He roll, somebody tag him.

He like, "Boom!" Tagging him at the nail, tagging him in the paint.

Absolutely. He rolls some more and somebody tag him. Before you knew it though, he wasn't rolling to the rim anymore. He was rolling and stopping at the free throw line. Because those tags hurt, man. You start rolling down, you're looking this way. Unexpectedly tag, you like, "Oh my God." Those things add up, right? They got him all those DHOs and ball screens he was in last night was on the side of the floor. So you negate him going down the middle of the paint, getting tagged. And now he wasn't stopping in the middle, he was stopping at the rim. And so I thought that that was a very big time adjustment for them to get him out the middle of the floor. It's similar to what I'm saying about Jaylen Brunson. Mm-hmm. You got him up top with the ball and it's 10 eyes looking at him. The whole defense, it's loaded up looking at him. Different in the way Wemby plays, but it was a similar concept. And because they got him to the side of the floor, able to roll from the side of the floor, all of a sudden you're not getting those tags and you're getting lobs. And so I thought that was a big adjustment for those guys.

Now with Wemby, game 1, he took 21 shots. 9 of them were 3s, 6 of them came in the paint. Game 2, 21 shots, 6 3s, 11 came in the paint. Draymond Green, 18 shots, 4 threes, 13 came in the paint for Wemby. And so you talk about those adjustments and we talk about how like though they became more assisted opportunities on ball. It seems to me that unless perhaps they can get somebody other than KAT to defend him, that's not going to be as useful. But this is the benefit probably for the Spurs of having all these different guards. Fox, Castle, Harper, different flavor, different styles with each of those guys. It seems to me like that's kind of the— The key. Kind of running trend right now in the NBA, going back to really when you guys, you know, when, when your first Finals a decade ago, the one in 2022 as well. But, you know, Celtics winning their Finals in '24, Thunder last year, and then either Spurs or Knicks this year, having multiple points of attack on the floor seems to be of the utmost importance. So you're not having to rely just on Brunson, not having to rely just on Wemby, but having different sources of creation is of the utmost importance. But that said, Draymond, like I am curious. Mm-hmm. Regardless of this, how the series goes, do you tend to agree with what Kevin Durant said a few months ago about Wemby when it came to— he said he's better when he's not floating around on the perimeter. He's better when he's at the rim. Do you think that should be Wemby's offseason priority? What should Wemby be focusing on this summer?

I agree with that 100%. I think sometimes when he gets to floating around, it's not even necessarily that you're not okay, because when you're that talented, you're that skilled, you're that size, you'll be okay. But it's also what it does to everyone else. If you're just floating, then Stephon Castle has to find where he can get his at. You're just floating, you might be floating into an area where Devin Vassell could possibly get a shot. If you're just floating, you're also not putting as much pressure on the rim as you can place on the rim. And so I think, I agree with Kevin. To have the ability that Wimby has is important, right? It's what makes him special. What's going to ultimately make him more special and the most special that he can be, what's ultimately going to change that and make that happen or not is Wimby figuring out exactly what it is that I need to do and when I need to go to that. Because every game, don't require him to be up top trying to break a guy down. But if you want that to just be who you are, then every game you'll be doing that. However, he's a lob threat that no one can contain. If you just throw the ball near the rim and he's there, he's going to get a hand on it. Somehow he carries all of them into the rim. And it's like—

He had that guide shot like Wilt Chamberlain in Game 3. I was like, oh my God.

It's like, how did he just guide it? Right? It's like if he gets his hand on the ball near the rim, it somehow The ball goes in, right? That is an elite skill that you are the most elite at right now, currently in the NBA, and pretty high up there on the list in NBA history. So if you are that elite at that, you know what you should do most, more of?

That.

That. That, right? And I think ultimately he'll have to figure that out. And I will say, And even watching him from last year to watching him this year, he floats less. You know, he doesn't float this much, as much this year as he did last year. So I'll give him credit, right? You've worked on that, you've gotten better. But in order to take the next step and the next step, he's gonna have to continue to figure that out more and more. Castle's gonna get better. Dylan Harper's gonna get better, which means they're gonna require the ball more and more, which is gonna require him to float less and less. And he's gonna have to figure out what ultimately makes them the best and most dangerous team they can possibly be. And when you're that high a percentage at the rim, I thought it was beautiful last night. At the rim, at the rim, dunk, dunk, dunk. Oh, all right, I'm gonna step out and take a 3 now. Beautiful. Love to see that. Because he has an incredible jump shot, right? Like, so we don't just wanna see him do away with the 3. We don't just wanna see him get rid of his mid-range. Yeah. He's a great shooter. But when you're shooting that 3, when you're shooting that mid-range, that win goes to me. Whether you make it or not, don't really matter. When you take it, I won. Because you're not taking the 85% shot that you got at the rim. So I won that possession. And I think he has to start to understand that. It's like, I'll use myself as an example. No, not that I'm saying I'm Victor Wembanyama. I'm not close to Victor Wembanyama. What I used as an example is, Game 7 of the NBA Finals, 2016. I hit 6 threes. 32 points, whatever it was. Beautiful. We lost. Because that 32 points that I had and the threes that I hit are different than Steph Curry scoring 32 points. And hitting 6 threes. It's totally different. You know why? Because it causes a different reaction from defense. If Steph Curry's hitting those threes, Steph Curry has 32 points, that somebody else got 15 just by them overreacting to him.

Alarms are going off on the defense when that happens.

You see what I'm saying? So with Wimby, you can hit that jump shot and it's beautiful, but when you're at the rim, it causes a different reaction— to the defense.

That's the alarm bells for the defense when Wemby's at the rim. It's the opposite gravity aspect of Stephen Curry is what you're saying.

1000%. So he has to understand that yes, I could be open and make the 3 or shoot the 3, right? Or I can say I'm open, but if I get this ball to Steph and he shoot the 3, the reaction that it's gonna cause from this defense is completely different. And that's what he has to understand. Yeah, I can take the 3, and there's a time where I'mma take and make the 3. He had some big ones last night. But when I'm at the rim, everything else that everyone around me is getting, it just makes our team more, more and more impossible to guard.

I mean, and this is where like perhaps he's experiencing that growth this season and especially in these Finals and understanding what the game needs. And that's where his skill set allows him to be so flexible. I mean, there's going to be nights where he does take 10 threes and he might make 7 of them. There might be games where he's just living at the rim like we saw in Game 3. I mean, talk about defending Victor Wembenyama. Two of your better performances this season came against the Spurs. I felt like on back-to-back games, you had great defensive performances against Wemby. Prior to that game, I was critical of you and of the Warriors. You guys were 500. Fans were blaming the young guys, blaming Pods, and I was like, no, this—

Yeah.

Too much blame on Pods. You got to look at Draymond. He said himself, I've failed the defense. You got to look at Jimmy Butler. You have only 3 shots against the Thunder in that blowout loss. And you came at me on Threads. But I'm curious, after you came at me, you had 2 of your best performances. Did I motivate you at all, Draymond?

You definitely motivated me. I did? Really? Of course you did. But number 1, as you can tell, I love Threads. And before we start communicating, I would always see your takes pop up and I enjoy them. So when you said that, Hey, motherfucker, I wanna say something back. Right? But I agreed. And what I didn't enjoy during that time, and I agree with you on, was there was too much blame being pointed at the young guys. Like, we have to play better, right? Like, if our defense is struggling, I can't point at Brandon Przyjimski and say, "Hey, man, our defense is struggling. What you gonna do about it?" No, it's like I said last night on the air, hey, Victor Wimbyama, you're unanimous Defensive Player of the Year. What can happen is everybody, the Knicks are up 2-0, and everybody's saying they're up 2-0 because of your matchup.

Mm, yeah.

That's your matchup. So everybody in the world is saying the Knicks are up 2-0 because of Karl-Anthony Towns' play. That is your matchup. That can't happen, right? Well, let's rewind back. Our defense is struggling. In turn, we're 500. It's not Brandon Przyjemski's fault. Can Brandon— can Brandon guard better? I'm sure. As everyone else could, right? Like, we can all do better. But it's not his fault that our defense is sucking and we're 500, that falls on me. And I said that to your point, right? Like you have to take, when you get credit for things, you also have to take blame. Don't be the guy that just stand there and say, "Oh man, it's going good, me, me, me." [LAUGHTER] "It's going bad, him, him, him." No, no, no, no, no. It's still me, me, me. And so you definitely motivated me. And going into that,— to those games against San Antonio, back-to-back games in San Antonio, they had gotten off to a pretty good start. And Victor Wembiyan was starting to come into his own. So for me, as a guy who's getting older in his career, I always say, man, when you play these young guys early, if you want respect later, you better get 'em early. And so for me, I'm going out in these games, I'm like, yo, for however much longer I play, whether it's 2 years, whether it's 3 years, I want the respect of this guy. The only way I can get the respect of this guy for those next 2 or 3 years, if I do it right now. And that was my focus. But it was, trust me, I took those games serious. I was watching film like I was in a playoff series on this guy. [LAUGHTER] Because I wanted to have that impact. I wanted to have a good game. It was also NBA Cup, right? Like one of those games was the NBA Cup. And so, you know, you're at that point in the season where you're like, yo, we 500, we need to win a couple games. And here's where the experience comes in, Kevin. You ultimately know, myself and Steph, you ultimately know, all right, we're 500. These two wins can change the course of where we're headed right now.

Yeah.

And so you go in with that mindset and understanding that we need to change the course of this. And I, you know, Jimmy was locked in, Steph was locked in, I was locked in. And we were able to, two, our biggest wins this season, we were able to win both of those games. But it was definitely motivating when you said that. Like I said, I love young guys. You know, JK, when he was still my guy, but Moses, Brandon Przydzinski, I love those guys. And so when you said that, I had something to say back for sure. Mm-hmm. What I wasn't gonna say is, it is their fault. No, it's not their fault. It's not their fault. That's for sure. But you know, it's fun clapping back at him, you know?

Oh no, it's always fun. I love the beef. It was a good back and forth. I enjoyed it. And I think I'm curious about, one of the funny things about that was you posted my old, I was on Ryan Russell's podcast. You called, you looked at the Killian Hayes, number one, you said the number one pick. Wow, you stink at this. And so I've got Killian, among others. You know, LeBron's got Shabazz Napier, called him his favorite, the best point guard in the 2014 draft. What's your biggest draft miss?

My biggest draft miss. Hmm.

Draymond Green.

So I would say My biggest miss, I'll take it as a miss because it didn't work. But I still think this guy has the potential to become a star in this league. I was super on the train of draft Jonathan Kuminga. I still don't think it's a miss because number one, watch what he did in these playoffs off of 2 months with an organization and to have the playoffs he had. I think that's the start of something. Number 2, that's my little brother and the relationship is tight. And so if nothing else, I'm appreciative and that means the world to me. But number 3, it just didn't work in Golden State. And it didn't work. It wasn't the best fit for him. And so I'd have to say that that's my miss, but not miss from the standpoint of Killian Hayes type of miss. [LAUGHTER] Miss from the standpoint To the point of ultimately it didn't work. And now he's trying to, and will figure it out, I think, in Atlanta. But it didn't work out for us. But I still think J.K. can be an All-Star.

Now, considering some of my point guard misses, does it make you feel better or worse about Darius Akaf if I tell you that I also love Darius Akaf?

It makes me feel like you figured it out and gotten better over the years. 'Cause I'll tell you what, Kevin, I think A.Cuff, man. So I've watched A.Cuff now for over the past 3 years and I've watched his growth. And you know, I said it to him the other day. I was like, yo, I came and watched you play at Seal Beach. He was playing with the family, A.U. team I grew up playing with. And I played with in high school. And I was like, man, I love it. Like the intensity, If a guy walked in the gym, has been a champion in the NBA, played for the same AAU team I played for, I'm gonna be like, "Oh, I'm about to show him who I am." And I didn't feel like he had that reaction at the time. And so that stuck with me, right? You talk about a first impression. That stuck with me. And then I saw him play at IMG a couple times, right? And you saw he had got stronger and— Yeah. Faster and more athletic. And I'm like, all right, I'm watching him. And then I watched him play all year at Arkansas. And right away, beginning, I said, oh, it's different now. It's competing. It's competing at a high level. Early in the season, he was really guarding at a high level. I think as the season went on, he had to do so much for their offense that he took a sweat off the gas pedal a little bit on the defensive end.

He had Draymond protecting him.

For sure. And then in the NBA, he will have someone protecting him. Them at the rim, you know? But—

Oh, if it's the Kings and he ends up with Sabonis.

Yeah, that would be tough.

I'll say it, not you.

That'd be tough. But I think Darius Acuff is by far the best point guard in this draft. I don't think it's a close second. I could be wrong, right? Kingston Flemmons, you know, Keaton Wagler, Mykel Brown. I think, you know, those guys are talented, but I think Acuff's different. Acuff can get a bucket, Acuff can pass the ball, and he has this confidence. He has this confidence that's, it's not arrogant, it's not cocky, it's a surety in himself that you need to be successful at this level. And so I really think that he can be special. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to it. So I have to agree with you on that when I say you've gotten better at it.

One of the things I love about A.K.F., and I feel like people often talk about him, A, a defensive liability people talk about, but B, they talk about, oh, he's just an on-ball dominant guy. I'm like, I don't know. He played next to Malik Thomas. He made 50% of his catch-and-shoot threes last year at Arkansas. He's moving around off-ball, comfortable catching off of movement. Like, I think he's incredibly talented off-ball. And that's to me, like, when I look at projecting him forward in the NBA.

This is a guy who can play with and without the ball.

I'm not saying he's gonna be Stephen Curry necessarily, but he has the ability to play with and without the ball to constantly be a threat. He's not gonna be standing at the logo when the ball's not in his hands.

I agree with you 1000%. I've seen them get him off the ball and run him off pin downs and different things, right? He's not just this ball dominant guy. That people portray him to be. And I'm gonna tell you another thing that can show you right away that he's not a ball dominant guy that just has to have the ball to hold possession. How often he throws an advance pass. Most times when he get the ball in transition, he look ahead and Malik Thomas or Billy Richmond or one of those guys are running the wing, advance pass, he throw it. Advance passes. They don't got nothing, they throw it back, he go to work. Ball dominant guys who just hold the ball and hold, they don't throw advance passes. Great point guards do throw advance passes. And I've watched Darius Acuff all year, get the ball, start looking ahead, advance pass. Get the defense flattened out, get it back, go. And so I don't, I definitely don't agree with the whole ball dominant thing because I know ball dominant guys, they don't throw advance passes. You know why? Because the possession is no longer in their control. They wanna hold on to it, you know?

It gets back to what we were talking about earlier with Brunson and like the Harden comp, right? I mean, Harden, I mean, he could throw advanced passes, but he was dribble, dribble, dribble.

Yeah, he was bringing it up.

Exactly.

Right, he was bringing it up.

It was the offense. That's the way they ran it.

That's the offense they had. And by the way, special he was.

Yeah.

Extremely special. But he wasn't really advancing the ball up more because the offense they had is, Come down, go find a ball screen with James, or up, he got a mismatch, move out the way, he about to cook this dude. Buckle up. You know, like that was the offense that they ran. But Lonzo Ball, Lonzo Ball get fast pass. You look, Steve Nash, fast pass. Like point guards, advanced true point guards, they throw advanced passes. And Acuff, I watched him over and over this year. Get it, look, advance pass. Get it, look, advance pass. And I think that's a big deal. And that tells a different story than just, oh man, you're ball dominant.

Bring him this back to the Finals with another small guard leading his team, Draymond Brunson. This series, in the minutes against Victor Wembenyama, he scored 65 points on 22 of 66 field goals, 39% effective field goal percentage. And in the limited minutes not against Wemby, 17 points on 8 of 15, 53% effective field goal, which is basically the equivalent efficiency-wise of what he did during the season and the rest of the playoffs. And then against Wemby, again, back-to-back rounds, we've seen an All-NBA point guard, SGA, his efficiency plummeted against Ed Brunson. His efficiency is plummeting against the Wemby lineups. Obviously Wemby's not defending Jalen Brunson, but he's on the floor changing New York shot distribution. What are you seeing from—

Yeah.

Wemby's influence on these guards, but also Castle and whoever's defending Brunson in terms of what's affecting them. Why is their efficiency dipping in this matchup against the Spurs?

Well, I think when you have Victor Wemby, I'm at the rim, you know, you can't just go free willy nilly to the rim and—

Doing U-turns. That's what everybody's doing.

You know, like you can't just take off and go. Even if you take off and you get a step somewhere at the corner of your eye, you're looking to see where this guy is. Right? That can throw timing and rhythm off. Another thing, Stephon Castle is— you ever stood next to him?

He's big.

Big dude.

Wide.

Like—

Like a defensive lineman.

And athletic as hell. And he a dog. When you couple those things together, You have this guy who's picking up full court or 3/4 court, and he's just pressuring you, speeding your offense up, ultimately knowing that I'm athletic enough to stay with you. At worst, you're gonna get me on your hip, but I got this big guy back there to where even if you get a step, you really can't go there. Because you gotta account for him. Once you start accounting for him, he's so athletic that he now caught up. You're now trying to get him on your back to keep him outta play, but he's super strong and athletic and he's dodging the body and he can still affect the shot. Oh, by the way, there's this big guy standing down there that you just can't run and take off and go down there. So in turn, I think when you look at Shea, when you look at JB, all of their, like, they all get themselves going by getting to the rim. And then they shoot the middies and the threes, but they start off by getting to the rim.

Is that like, does that get you flow? Like as a player?

It gets you a rhythm, right? Like you're able to see the ball go through the rim immediately.

It's just psychological?

Absolutely. Like, and so once you can see the ball go through the rim, you get a couple layups, you feeling good, step out, it's great. When you take those layups away and now you're doing, you're shooting a contested, like remember these are contested jump shots over Stephon Castle.

Fadeaways, like Brunson, he took and made that kind of like Dirk fade in game 1 or 2, whatever it was. But like, this is a tough shot.

But those are tough shots, right? You get into the lane. In most instances, Jalen Brunson get into a lane, pivot, boom, boom, shoulder, shot. That shoulder to the castle is different. It ain't creating the same separation, right? So then it's a little more of a lean, right? A shot that you usually get on the lane line is now 2 steps outside the lane line and you trying to catch the glass, right? Like it's a different scenario. Oh, and by the way, you're doing that on castle, but there's this big 7'4" guy lurking in the background, still coming to get a contest, even though you're in a bad position. And so— Draymond Green. So I think overall you got him roaming at the rim and it's just not a lot. So the tough shots that they do take, Shay, Jaylen Brunson, it's combated by 3 or 4 layups. Now they're just getting those tough shots that they take and it's not combated by 3 or 4 layups. And that's the difference in Jaylen Brunson being 7 for 25 and— Mm-hmm. 11 for 22. That's the difference right there. Then you get to pressin' a little bit more. Now you like, ah, I need to figure it out. You take a couple extra shots that you may not have taken. And so I think ultimately, it's why Victor Wembanyama was top 3 in MVP voting. Because 24 points don't get you top 3 in MVP voting at this, in this day and age. It just doesn't. But when you couple it with what he does on the defensive end, yes, the blocks are great. It's cool. Steals. Okay, great. But the impact, the overall impact that he has on that side of the floor, it's made it very tough for last round Shay. And now it's making it very tough for Jalen Brunson.

I mean, he changes who you wanna be, right? I mean, it's kind of like obviously different type of style, but like switching defenses in the mid-2010s changed the way this offenses operate. Wemby with his presence, changes the way offense can operate. Stephen Curry offensively changes the way you have to defend. Like we're talking about the gravity aspect. I mean, I think the physicality as well in this entire playoff and this series in particular, I was surprised watching the Game 2 broadcast when Richard Jefferson was like, it's almost too physical. I'd imagine for you, a very physical player online and on the court, you probably love this. Mm-hmm. What you're seeing right now. This is probably a dream for Draymond Green, right?

1000%. Like, you want physicality. There's no such thing as too physical, by the way. I don't know what RJ's talking about. Love RJ, by the way. That's one of my vets. But there's no such thing as too physical. It's what you want. It's the NBA Finals. We're competing for something. We're fighting for something. It's the ultimate prize, and we're one step away. It should be physical. It should be hard. If it wasn't hard, anybody could do it. It should be hard. And it should be very physical. It's why I've always loved the playoffs more than the regular season. It's why my numbers have always been better in the playoffs than they have in the regular season. The game gets more physical. Game gets more physical, I become a much better player. And that's just what it boils down to. And right now, the most physical team has been the team to win the series. The Knicks went into San Antonio and they were the more physical team. Almost, KAT was almost bullying Victor Wiminyama. Last night they flipped the script. It was KAT who looked disengaged and it was Victor Wiminyama doing the bullying. Pushing Jalen Brunson in the back of his neck, throwing him down. [LAUGHTER] Like, you know, all of those little things By the way, I'll tell you this, Kevin. Don't not for one second think when he pushed him down and none of the guys on Knicks team did anything, don't not for one second think that didn't matter. Oh, that mattered.

Jalen Brunson stood up for himself there, but nobody else really did.

I wish Steph Curry would stand up for himself right there and not just watch Victor Wiminyama take his hand in the back of Steph Curry's head.

What would Draymond Green have done right there?

I'm probably gonna get thrown out right there.

"And it may cost us Game 3, but Game 4—" You would've done what, what was the thing you said to that Hana Hoops account? "I'm gonna crush those TK." Oh yeah. That's what you would've done though.

Absolutely. Like, by the way, you're not pushing Steph Curry by the back of the head down to the ground. And I'm seeing Josh Hart was like, "Yo, no, you get right in there and you make something happen." Because guess what? I may get thrown outta Game 3 because you just, you're not doing that. But when I come back for game 4, you gotta deal with me. And you know, you gotta deal with me. And it changes things. He threw him to the ground. It changed the way that team felt about the New York Knicks. Because what's been the special thing about the Knicks is they've been so connected. Throughout this run, they've been extremely connected. And that right there was a chink in the armor.

Oh yeah.

It's like, oh, Listen, one thing you gotta understand, Kevin, when we're out there on that floor, all it takes is one small thing for me to grab ahold to and say, "Oh, ooh, I can do something with that. I can play at this.

Oh man, they ain't as together as I thought they was." Truck sticks, you see 'em. How Ricardobryant did one, Stephon Castle on Boston, right?

Absolutely. Like, these are intentional, man. These aren't like, "Oh, making a mistake." These are intentional. They wanna see where you at. And if you don't stand up to it, You know what I think? Oh, I got him.

Well, and that's the thing. Like last night, obviously the Madison Square Garden crowd is booing after the review. There's no unnecessary contact on, I think it was the Castle truck stick on Brunson, whatever one it was. And it was like, okay, well this is the way they're gonna call it.

Yeah.

This is the way it's gonna be. Like we get this physical game where they're allowing this toughness. And so you gotta match that to your point. That's what you're saying.

You have to match that. And that's why I was a little disappointed in Mike. I love Mike Brown. That's my guy. And I was a little disappointed after the game when he talked about the free throw shooting, because I thought number one, the Spurs were the much more aggressive team. They were the aggressors. And the referees, believe it or not, admit it or not, referees side with the more aggressive team. That's a tale as old as time.

'Cause they can't call it every time. Is that why?

They can't call it every time. And they're gonna get a benefit of the doubt to the aggressor, not the person who's on their heels falling back. 'Cause I can't tell whether you on your heels falling back or he pushed you back, you know? And so the aggressor, if you're going forward, I can tell he fouled you. If you doing this.

Yeah.

And you pass the ball and it's a little short, I can't tell if he hit your arm or you, it was a little short. So the referees are always going to side with the aggressor. And I was a little disappointed in Mike B because, He spoke about the free throw shooting. And I thought his team didn't come out and play as physical as they needed to play to go up 3-0. And in turn, you talk about the officiating, you're giving those guys an out to not own not showing up aggressive as they needed to show up. And so I love an aggressive series. I think all series should be that way.

Beautiful.

It's why I love the playoffs because referees will never admit it. They officiated a little bit differently. And we all know that. You get away with a little bit more. And I think that's how it should be. So I love it. And by the way, just so we're clear, when I told that girl I'll crush them kids, I looked at their picture. I was talking about I'll fry them kids. Like I'll roast them. I was in the spirit of roasting. I had just finished the Kevin Hart special.

Oh, you meant like a stomp crush.

No, hell no. I got little girls, man. I ain't put—

I'mma put my hands on one of the funniest responses I've ever seen.

'Cause you know what I do, man? You get these people talking shit on threads and then, you know, you go look at their profile picture and it's like, this you talking to me like this? And so this lady had this banner of like these two dirty-ass kids on her, you know, you click on the profile and they got a banner up there. And it was like two dirty kids. And I'm like, you can't talk to me like this. And you got two little dirty kids right here. Like, and you're calling me the B word. Like, you can't talk to me like this. And so when me and my boys, when we say like, oh my God, like some people say like, oh, he cooked her. Or, oh, he destroyed her. Or he roasted her. We say, oh my God, he crushed her. Oh my God. So when I'm talking to the lady, I'm like, you should stop before I crush these little dirty kids.

The proposal there.

Right? That's so good. You should stop before I crush those dirty-ass kids in your back. Like, you should stop. Like, 'cause I'm in the spirit of roasting and I'm about to crush these kids if you call me another B word.

Oh, thank God. Oh my God, dude, that was so funny. Draymond, I know you gotta run. You gotta go golfing.

Yes, sir.

You got a busy day in New York on the off day. Last thing before we do go, go here. How does the series resolve? Game, post-game 3 prediction.

You know what? If the Knicks play the brand of basketball they played and they don't go through Carl Anthony Towns, which has been their advantage in this series, when you have a player that has an advantage and at this point in the playoff, you better take advantage of it because the advantages elsewhere may be this big, which means it can go either way. If you don't take advantage of where your advantage is. And so the Knicks have to go back to playing the brand of basketball that we watched them play over the last month and a half, 2 months. I think they should be capable of doing that. However, they're gonna walk into that arena tomorrow and that crowd that they love, which I understand why you love it, it was incredible. Yeah. To see, they're gonna be a little tense.

Mm-hmm.

They're gonna be a little timid. They're a little uncertain. And guess what? Those Knicks players are gonna feel that uncertainty. And it's on them to change that. And if they don't change that, and the Spurs come out and punch them in the mouth, that crowd is gonna go silent. And they gonna feel that. And they're gonna have to overcome that. And so, I think the Knicks should win this series. I think they are more than capable of winning this series. However, I think the Knicks that we've watched throughout the postseason are capable of winning this series. I don't think the Knicks that's just gonna go ball dominant, one guy trying to make every play, are capable of winning this series because that brand of basketball just doesn't win. At the highest level. And so if they're committed to getting the ball back to Karl-Anthony Towns, getting him back going, if they can commit to that, they'll win this series. They can't commit to that though. 'Cause the Spurs, they played their brand of basketball last night. You saw swing, swing, 3. Swing, swing, drive, lob. Pick and roll, lob. They played their brand of basketball. They found their brand of basketball. The Knicks, One thing people gotta understand, Knicks has had this magic in the bottle, this lightning in the bottle. They've captured it. It's beautiful. When you find it, it's the best. And when you're in it, you know it. Well, Spurs popped the cap a little bit.

Mm.

And a little bit of that magic and that lightning flew out. How do you recapture it? They gotta do it fast because all it takes is one game to flip a series. Now you questioning yourself a little bit. You're going into game 4, it's even more pressure on it. I thought the Knicks had the most pressure to win last night. You lose the first 2 games at home, you're the young Spurs, you're supposed to lose. All the pressure was on the Knicks last night. Well, there's even more pressure on the Knicks tomorrow. And everybody in the arena is gonna feel that. Can they turn back into the Knicks we've watched the last 2 months? Or are they gonna go back to the Knicks we watched prior to that? And if they don't, or if they do, it's gonna be at a ranked series.

I'm here for that magic. You're getting me hyped for game 4. Game 4s are always pivotal. I can't wait. I know you'll be at the arena tomorrow night. I'll be at the arena. It's a privilege to be there in that MSG crowd. I can't wait to see what it's like tomorrow night. Draymond, thank you so much for joining me today.

Yes, sir.

People of course can check you out on the Draymond Green Show. Keep up the awesome work, man. Thank you so much. This is a lot of fun.

Thanks, Kevin. I appreciate you having me on. You know, I've been following along your takes through threads and video, and it's fun to watch. And just to, you know, I am a fan of the NBA space and I love to see people grow, you know, and to watch you grow over the course of the last several years, continue to grow, finding your voice more and more in this space. I don't think people understand how hard it is to break through in what you're doing. There's so many voices. There's so many people giving a take. There's so many people with things to say. There's so many shows. And to watch your name become more and more prominent in the space is a beautiful thing. And congratulations and keep going, brother. It's beautiful to see. And I enjoy your work and your takes.

Thank you, man. I appreciate it. My goal is always to be fair and just, be honest above all else with everything, whether it's, you know, criticism or praise, you know, and that's always the goal. And I appreciate you coming on, man. We can squash the beef or crush the beef today.

Crush that beef, baby.

Thank you so much, Draymond Green, for joining me on today's show.

Yes.

Have a good rest of your day, man.

Thank you.