Draymond & Mo Williams REACT: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander & Thunder win, Pacers NBA Finals collapse

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Not every sports moment is about championships. Some are just complete disasters. And that's exactly what makes them worth watching. From wild injuries and bench-clearing brawls to tone-deaf product deals and press conference meltdowns, Sports Gone Wrong breaks down the most unbelievable missteps in sports history. If you think you've seen it all, this show proves you haven't. New episodes air Wednesday at 9:00 PM Eastern, only on Vice TV. Go to vicetv.com to find your channel. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show with Baron Davis. BD is not here today, uh, but we have a guest today, uh, NBA champion. And so every year I do this— I won't necessarily say I do this, but we put it together at Michigan State where we do Grind Week. And all the pros come back, we hoop, we work out with the guys, we kick it. Like the next generation of guys, the guys that's on the team now, we do this whole thing. And I actually got that whole idea, the whole premise, forget the idea, the exact thing of what it is, I got it from our next guest. When I was first, second year in the league, Brought me down to Dallas. He didn't play in Dallas at the time, but brought me, lived in Dallas, brought me down to Dallas. Literally paid for flights, paid for hotels, showed us a great time. Kind of took me under his wing and I've been forever grateful ever since. This next guest, now I will go on and say, Unfortunately, this man beat me in the 2016 Finals. But if we were gonna lose to somebody in the 2016 Finals, it's my guy and an OG in this, been doing it for a long time, one of the greats to do it, none other, I'm happy to have this guest, none other, Moe Gotti, Moe Williams. What's happening, my brother?

What's happening, man? I appreciate them kind words, man. I'm forever grateful for your friendship. Always have, always will be. Proud of you, man. I'm proud of you. I feel like an OG 'cause you an OG OG now. You came in and, you know, it's all love.

Absolutely, bro. I still, like I just said, I go down to Michigan State and, you know, Travis used to come down with me and like we created Grind Week at Michigan State. Like people don't know, like Grind Week, that belonged to Mo Williams.

Like you taught me that and like bring it back.

Ass down there to work out, to hoop.

It was love.

Over to your crib, barbecuing. Like, I had never seen a crib like that. Like, outside of Joe Dumars' crib, I had never seen a crib like that. And so I just want you to know, man, I'm forever grateful. I hope, I hope you can appreciate that I took your idea and continue to move it forward because—

No doubt about it, man.

That was huge for me in my career.

No doubt about it, man. I appreciate it, man. It was some good time. We had some good, we had some good work. And, and that's the thing about it, man. People don't know, it wasn't— we weren't just hanging out, man. We were working, you know. We were working, we was grinding, man. We was getting better, you know. We was getting back in shape, you know. It was one of them— that's what Grind Week was about. It was about that moment where we, we needed to get back to work. So we came in, pushed each other, working out all day, and then we hung out at night. You know, we fellowship, man. It was all love.

That was perfect, bro. I appreciate it. I can't thank you enough. But obviously, as we know, Game 4 of the Finals just ended.

Yeah.

He tied it up 2-2.

I got OKC. You can ask everybody around me, Dray. I had OKC from day one. From day one, I had him. I said, listen, man, them boys were tough. I figured before this series started, that it wouldn't go more than 5, but Indiana snuck that, snuck game 1. They didn't supposed to win game 1.

No chance.

They didn't supposed to win game 1. They lost it. Exactly, you know, and then they came and, you know, took care of business game 2. Then game 3, Indiana came and took their, they gave them confidence. They gave them confidence. But this game right here, Dray, this was the game, and Indiana tricked this one all the way off. They did. All the way out.

They did. You know what's crazy? I saw, I put on my Threads account at one point during the game, like this was during the third quarter actually, OKC doesn't look like a team that believe. Like, like, I don't, like they did not believe they could win. When I was watching, what it looked like to me was you watching a boxing match. We watching whoever you, you call it, Bud Crawford versus, um, why am I drawing a blank right now, uh, versus Earl Spence.

Mm-hmm.

When I went to that fight and I was there live in person, when they went into that fight in the first couple rounds or the first round, it looked like Bud trying to figure it out, didn't really know what to expect. And obviously we know Earl got crazy power. Like, Earl has lived on— like, his power is crazy. And you could see that in the fight. And then all of a sudden, Earl caught Bud with his best shot.

Mm-hmm.

And Bud was like this. And from that point on, but press forward because he knew, you already caught me with the best shot you can catch me with and it didn't even daze me. It didn't stun, like it didn't stun me. So for the rest of the fight, I can just press forward because even if you catch me with your best shot again, I can just walk through it.

It ain't gonna fall back, yeah.

And for the first 3 quarters of that matchup, OKC looked like that where—

Yeah.

Indiana's just kind of doing whatever they wanted to do when they want.

It's the pace, Draymond Green. It's the pace. I'm telling you, Indiana have an unbelievable pace. OKC was trying to play at that same pace. They can't play like that because it doesn't benefit Shai. He needs to play at his pace. It ain't slow, it ain't fast. It's his pace. He need to have a flow more than a pace. It just need to have a flow so he can get it, get in his spots. Slow it down and get to his elbows. But Indiana get that bitch out so quick and they gone, getting it up, up the court. Now the other thing, OKC, they in a lot of iso situation. Now Indiana, you watch Indiana, they got a lot of action. That's a lot of movement. They creating a lot of movement. OKC defense is really good when Indiana gets stagnant and they able to load up, they able to get in them gaps. They ain't able to get them gaps when they got all that movement and getting the ball up fast. But what happened was late in the fourth quarter when every basketball game in America slow down, it benefits Shay. Now it goes into that guy, that guy. And that's when that guy came to work. So long as Indiana can keep that pace up, they had the advantage. But when the game slow down, they in trouble.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. By the way, I'm in Cabo. So for y'all that's like, yo, he's sweating or he look crazy, the sun is crazy and I am sweating. I've been watching the games outside, having me a couple drinks.

You talk about it, you hot and outside. You need to be inside in the air conditioning, man.

No, no, I watched the game outside, man, at the bar. You gotta watch the game over here at the bar. I know. Check it out, man. You go down here.

I'mma come out there now. I'mma come out there, get some dates and see what's going on.

I'm just telling you, come on down here, check it out. It's hot. It's a good time, man. So I watched it at the bar, you know? So when I come in here sweating, I heard some of y'all saying crazy things last episode, like, yo, why is he sweating? So I'm telling y'all why I'm sweating. I actually watched the game with PG. Me and PG was down there watching the game. And when it was 87 to 80, or 89 to 80, one of those scores.

89-82.

And I said, either take the lead to 15 or it's going to zero.

Really? What you saw that made you feel like that?

Both teams was just hanging around.

It was a punchin', yeah, they were gone.

Exactly, and so what I saw was Indiana really dominating them. They got them mentally, they got them physically, dominating them. But you look up, you up 7 at the end of the third. Now you should be up 13 at the end of the third, but let a couple plays here and there get away. You let the J-Dub get the joint at the end of the quarter, right? Those things change a game at this level. Regular season, even first round of the playoffs, you can get away with those things, but this is the NBA Finals, and those types of things change this. So right now, y'all are really dominating this game, but you only up 7 points, and I think at that time, Shea got like 20 points.

Mm-hmm.

15, 20 points or something like that. You have to push that lead at that time. OB Toppin's the one hitting the threes, right? Yeah. Like OB Toppin's hitting the shots. It ain't even Pascal or Tyrese hitting the shot. So you got your other guys hitting the shots at that time. You gotta extend the lead at that time.

And they did it.

And so for me, when you, if you leave the game, and while I'm watching that, and while I said that, if you leave the game within striking distance like that, Then what it's gonna come down to at the end is who got—

'Cause the game slow down.

You know what I'm saying? Who got the best score?

Yep.

And we obviously all know who got the best score in this series, and they allowed them to let it become their game. If you push it to 13, push it to 15, they can't slow the game down.

Exactly.

Gotta go, go, go.

And that's what it was.

And Draymond Green will tell you, I need to go because we ain't got that much time. We down 13, we down 15. It's the fourth quarter, I gotta go.

We can't slow down. You're absolutely right.

If we down 7 with 9 minutes to go, you like, there's plenty time left. One possession at a time.

Yes sir. Let me get this thing at the elbow, top of the key, space it out. Let me get to the line, get to this free throw line jumper. I'm finna cash this all day long. And the game slowed, man, the last 4 to 5 minutes and it just slowed down. They just running action, getting him into his ISO, getting him into his space. They stayed home, he went to work. That was the difference down the stretch. But Indiana, you think about the little stuff that they messed up on, the free throws, obviously. Them two bonehead-ass fouls.

Yeah.

Like those things, being in the finals, you understand every single possession matters.

Absolutely.

And I ain't just saying every single possession matters, like some of 'em you ain't gotta worry about. I'm talking about every single possession, every single substitution, every single mistake that you make, how you make it, it means something to the bottom line. And down the stretch, they made every mistake possible to get that game away.

1000%. I, I agree with that wholeheartedly. You look at— there's— so I thought majority of the game and the majority of the series, to be honest, Rick Carlisle has outcoached Mark Dagnall. I think—

Without a doubt.

Outcoached him, no questions asked. Like when you look at, there were certain points in that game where J Dub come down, I think it was like 7 and a half minutes left and Chet, Chet leave the game limping. JDub comes down and this actually started with JDub in the third quarter. 3 minutes to go in the third quarter, 3 and a half minutes to go in third quarter.

You talking about Draymond Green.

Tough shots, right? Like—

Yeah.

Come to the free throw line.

Behind the back, then that one.

No, but at that point they were, it was like a 10-point game and they couldn't get good shots at that point. And that was a time where you saw Mark Dagnall needed to take a, like, not take a timeout because it is what it is, but you need to call something.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

You don't have your best player on the floor. You need to call something. And they had like 3, 4 possessions in a row. And that's where Indiana needed to put the game away.

And they didn't capitalize.

They did not put the game away. So in turn, it ended up like being bad shot for bad shot, bad shot for bad shot. And the Leafs just kind of stayed with it.

Yeah, Nimhard missed a big shot too.

Yes, he did. Yes, he did.

That was a huge shot. That was a huge shot.

Yep. He did. You know, and so I'm watching this and it's inevitable what's about to happen. But I'm gonna tell you something that I thought down the stretch that I noticed. And if I'm the Pacers, I'm going to watch this film and this is what I noticed. A, they took Shea off the ball. We all know that. That's clear as day. They took Shea off the ball. They got J Dub handling the ball more. But down the stretch, what did they go to? They went to a Shea, J Dub pick and roll.

Yeah.

Switch. Now you got Nismith on Shea as opposed to Nimhard on Shea. And they kept switching it and he just threw it to Shea. And now Shay got Neesmith on him. And if you watch the beginning, for anyone who watched the beginning of this series, Shay got what he wanted on Neesmith.

Mm-hmm.

I think Neesmith's a very good defender. For instance, he guarded Jalen Brunson better than anybody. But it's matchup to matchup when it comes to this, to this point in the playoffs. The guy who guards one guy the best may not be the same guy to guard that guy the best in the next series. And so what we've seen is, Nimhard is the guy to guard Shea in this series. Every possession down the stretch, they went to the 1-2 pick and roll, get the switch, Shea got Nimhard, Shea got Neesmith on him now, and Shea goes to work and gets to all the buckets that he was getting to.

And so— Mm-hmm.

As a guard defender, as just as a guard, as a coach, someone with pride, a champion. At what point does the player, nimhard, just say, oh, I see they trying to get that switch.

I ain't switching.

I'm gonna make him, if J Dub wanna shoot a pick and pop 3.

Yeah.

Different 3 than the catch and shoot 3.

Yeah.

He ain't used to shooting pick and pop 3. Like at what point do we expect the player to be like, yeah, I'm not switching, I'm getting through this. It is what it is because I think down the stretch that's what cost them the game.

And you know what's crazy? Uh, and we go back to little stuff, everything loses, all the little shit loses games. Look at, uh, Game 3, go look at their defensive possession. They weren't switching nothing. They weren't switching nothing. Game 3, they didn't switch nothing. They got through everything and they got beat at times. Because of that.

Yep.

They was able to get, that's why they, it was such a high scoring first half because they was staying with they matchup, getting through everything. Turner was in that short little drop, that little short drop, I call it short drop. He right there on that short drop and he trying to stunt a little bit, get back in front. If you a little bit late, that's when they was turning that corner and they was reading it.

Right.

But they stuck with it. They stuck with it game 3.

Yeah.

'Cause it kept the pace going. It kept OKC down here, make a miss, we out anyway. So the game is gonna be back and forth. But tonight they was in a lot of switches when they weren't in switches game 3.

Exactly. And I think OKC took full advantage of that. So now when I'm going ahead in this series, I'm saying no matter how much we get hurt, And not only am I saying that, but also I'm matching Nimhard's minutes with Shay. The only time you get a break is when he come off the floor. And the rest of the game, you getting through every screen, you fighting through everything. We get into them because again, to your point, Moe, even if Shay turned the corner and he got a little advantage, but Nimhard is fighting through it. If he don't have a crazy advantage, he gonna stop.

Exactly.

At his pace, you know, he want to get it at— and at his pace, Nimhard has shown that he can guard him at his pace.

He confident, he know him.

Absolutely. They play on the Canadian national team, you know, they playing ones when they in camp, you know, all these things.

And Shay respect him.

Absolutely.

He not gonna guard him. That's the problem. Shay got too much respect for him.

Yes. Yeah. So, so as a scorer, say Nimhard don't, 'cause I don't do this, this ain't my career, this is your career. If Nimhard don't switch it, what happens next? If you Shay, you've been in that position.

He gotta get downhill. He get, and he got, he gotta get down here and he gotta get an advantage every single time. And he gotta be ready to step because at some point he gotta fight through it. That may be over and under. If he under, you gotta have that trigger ready. If you knock, you knock a couple, um, screens down when you got space, I mean shots down behind the screen when you got space. Now he getting over the top every time and ain't switching. Now you got him on your hip. Now you got an advantage. Now you, now you getting to the line more. Now he didn't start getting to the line till down the stretch when they were trying to keep the fucking game close.

Yeah.

You get what I'm saying? So that's the only time he started getting to the line. But throughout the game, he wasn't getting to the line like that because he wasn't really getting them on their hip. Everything was kind of getting to the elbow, kind of getting his feet set, trying to get some separation, trying to get that pull-up off. And if I'm Indiana, I'm forcing them into that mid-range pull-up at the free throw line 'Cause he willing to get there if you get it to him every time.

Yeah.

You know, if he make it, he make it. He don't, he don't. It's still a 2 and you can get it out real quick and go. Now he ain't getting to the line. 'Cause he get to that line and you start letting him get an angle and he start to get an angle on you and able to get them long stretchy layups and them floaters. And now when he get those, oh yeah, he finna knock a couple 3s down. And then if he get that 3 level going, you want to keep him at 2 levels. And you want majority of them to be at the second level. And if I know they trying to do that, but they really just playing off how he playing and how the defense set, wherever angle he coming from. But if they just following him into that mid-range, he gonna accept that every time.

When you look at what's happening with the lineups, right? You got a team that won 68 games.

Yeah, I ain't understand that one, Draymond.

They came into the NBA Finals and changed.

Came and won.

I can't, I can't, I still can't believe that.

Man, you know what it is, man. You know, that's when a coach just, you know, they just cocky, you know, they just, you know, feel like they, you know, what you mean? I am him, you know, it's just, that's their case. Because if you, we can't understand why. We can sit back like, why would we do that? I can see Indiana doing that.

As they should. You won 68 games. Yeah. You know what this look like.

And we as players, and obviously I'm a coach now, I would never adjust to the team. And the minute I see, when I go into the locker room and we get our starters to come in from the pole team 10 minutes before the game, and I get on that board, coach bring it in, all right, who they got starting? Is it who we think? Then they come back, say, "Nah, Coach, they starting such and such. They trying to match up to us." I done won the game.

'Cause that's what we do best.

I done won the game. So by doing that, now you get more cocky. You felt like, "Well, that wasn't the reason we lost the game. Run it back." You know, did it again. Then obviously after game 3, you wanna switch it back. You know, so I don't know, man. You know, so, you know, what's your thoughts on that?

I thought, number one, you never show your hand before you need to show your hand.

So—

That should have been an adjustment.

That's an adjustment. When you going into the series, we're going with what has worked for us this whole time. If we get in game 1, I'm not sure I'm adjusting to game 1, but if it's so bad and it's glaringly noticeable, then yes, I'll make the adjustment. But for instance, OKC, like, they should've won game 1.

They tricked— They won game 1, they just tricked it off.

But when I take a step back and I'm going into these series, you never,— they showed their adjustment before the series started.

Yeah.

And when you've been in these situations and you know how this go, in 2000— in 2015, when we won our first championship, the death lineup was already born. We knew our small lineup was our best lineup. We didn't start the series with our death lineup start. With Andre Iguodala in the starting lineup. We started the series starting our lineup we had been starting. We got to 2-1, down 2-1, they made the call. We starting Andre, we going with our deaf lineup to start.

Mm-hmm.

That, right? That's our first time in the NBA Finals. That's also Steve Kerr's first time coaching in the NBA Finals. It's also his first year ever as a coach. But Steve has played and won 5 championships.

Mm-hmm.

He's seen Greg Popovich, he's seen Phil Jackson make these adjustments when the adjustment need to be made.

Mm-hmm.

Not starting the series. And so we're going into this series, we're playing with, all right, boom, that ain't working, this ain't, boom, we got our adjustment. But to show your adjustment, like there's no adjustment for OKC. Like, the adjustments they're making now is like, all right, we want to get Shay off the ball a little bit more. Although I think that didn't work either. Like, if Indiana closed the game when they should close the game and extend the lead how they should, that don't work either, right? Like, the adjustment is usually a matchup or lineup.

Yeah, yeah.

They already took that away. So if you know they've made their adjustment, What can they do now? Like, all right, so yes, they won game 4, and OKC's the best team, so they should win the series.

But they should—

but you've already made your trump.

And then now— But Draymond Green, I don't think we give it— well, I don't think we're giving Carlisle enough credit right now.

Oh no, Carlisle crushed it.

I want him to say credit, more so respect. You get what I'm saying? Just more so on like, like, he, as far as coaching, he's a legend.

Yes, he is.

You get what I mean? So when I'm talking about OKC, Indiana right now, talent-wise, team-wise, what they done from a season standpoint, absolutely. But now we're talking about Adjustment on top of adjustment. You know, how we approaching the next game, how you even communicate with your team, getting them ready. When we talk about staff, putting all that together, not saying who's better, but what I'm talking about, who been doing it longer.

Mm-hmm.

You get what I'm saying? Just imagine Draymond Green year 3 and Draymond Green year 12 and Draymond Green year 40, 50, whatever. It, it's a different level of mindset. Even though Draymond was good at year 3.

Yes.

You get what I'm saying? So at the end of the day, I think that it's almost like, you know, you're gonna be all right, young fella. You should be back here soon, or you may be back here another day, but you know, let the grown folks handle this type shit. What's going on? How I feel? How he coaching? You know what I mean? So I just think Indiana from that standpoint, has a chance, you know, but OKC clearly the better team.

1000%. And I've had, I've had, and I know this thing exists because I've had a coach and he's a very prominent coach in the NBA. I won't say his name because I ain't that type of guy. I ain't selling nobody.

I got you.

But what he did tell me is, and the way he said, The coaches who has won championships, it's like this little fraternity, and they don't wanna see a new coach enter. So Rick Carlisle is holding it down for all the coaches that has—

'Cause they don't want him in there yet.

They don't feel like he earned it. To not let Mike Magnol enter the conversation. And I know this to be factual. It's a very prominent coach. He's a player. He might have won a championship as a player.

There you go.

I don't know. Listen, in saying that though, and I think Rick has outcoached him.

Yeah, for sure.

You've outcoached him in y'all too, too. Do you think Rick made a mistake? Because down the stretch, I think we had like 3 highly cross, cross, cross, cross, cross, step back, airball threes. Yeah. Draymond Green was at fault for not making sure Pascal get the ball because—

Absolutely.

I think Pascal is the guy when you need to get a great look, Pascal's the guy to get you the look. Mm-hmm. Was he bad down the stretch and not make sure Pascal got a touch?

I think so, you know, but I do think, 2, it's a kind of let your team play too, 'cause you gotta think about they offense, you know it better than I do, it's just free flow. Like they ain't really give, unless Pascal, they giving it to him on that chopper wing area right there. I call it chopper wing in between the slot and the wing, in that area right there. If he getting it that way, he able to maneuver top of the key in the trail position or right there in the mid-block. If you get him the ball in them 3 spots, get out the way, let him go to work, make sure we spacing. But outside of that, it's spacing the floor. We hitting, we cutting off here. We in our open action, we in our rip action. It's a lot of movement and that's the base of the offense. So I think he's smart enough and don't give a damn enough to say, I'm gonna let my team play. You know, if I have to go to that, to, you know, them dirt spots, I go to it if I have to. Meaning, well, okay, see, going to those dirt spots before they have to run action, which they ain't running. Yeah. They ain't running no action. OKC just getting downhill, putting the ball in guys' hands, you know, looking for some overhelp, kicking out, trying to make some threes and trying to get the spots. But Indiana more so, they relying on their action and their movement because if you stand still on OKC and try to go to work, you gonna have some trouble. And Indiana don't have enough guys on the elite level that can just go get buckets, you know? So outside of Pascal.

Yeah.

You know, so they gotta rely on movement because if you, you know, if you let OKC just load up and get back and be in position, oh, you in trouble. That's why they getting it out. That's why he had 5 steals last game because they don't care. We getting it out. We not letting y'all get back and setting up. Like, we getting that ball down the court. We live with those steals.

Yep.

But we getting that ball out. 0.1 second, touched it, out of there, we gone. And they getting that ball across half court in 3 seconds.

Yes, they are.

Every single possession. Every single possession. And the more they do that, the more often they get that ball across half court in 3 seconds. Now it is creating a flow and a shift in defense. You already created your advantage.

Mm-hmm.

But if you get that ball up, more than 5 seconds with a defense that every single one of them touch the 3-point line, you in trouble.

Facts. What it also does is it create natural mismatches because we're all taught in transition you don't have a man. In the NBA, the first rule in transition is you don't have a man. Like, you think that you just gonna run to your man in transition? The other team, if your rules in the NBA are, You go get your man every time in transition.

You in trouble.

The team will get a layup every possession. So that's the number one rule in the NBA. You don't have a man in transition. And so what it's doing also is it's naturally creating these mismatches. It's naturally creating cross matches to where you—

Toppin' gonna have a guard on 'cause he running.

Exactly.

Man, Toppin' out there like he on the track, man. Exactly. He running and next thing you know, they pushing it down. He already in the seal 'cause the only person can get back with him is a guard.

Yep. Exactly. And you look at like, Halle got maybe 3 layups in the third quarter going to his right hand stretch out layups. None of them were on Lou Dort. I think one of 'em was on the— Chet was behind him.

Mm-hmm.

Shea was on him. And that's because they're pushing the ball so fast. You just gotta get matched up with whoever the closest man, and that is to their advantage. And take that advantage. Unfortunately, when the game slow down, you have to— Yes. That we gotta get that ball to Pascal. He's the only person on Indiana's team that can create a double team.

And that's it.

Create the double team, you kick it out, and now you got the first domino to fall. Fall, everything else can just roll.

Yep, exactly. And that's what they missing. And that's what— and all they got, he just didn't go to it. So to go back to what you said, you know, I bet he at the crib right now or probably in the office right now thinking about that stuff. Like, God dog, you know, they understand that, you know, man, it's real, you know, it's real. We've been in them moments, you know what I mean? So you live with some, you know, you go back to the room And you say, man, you start kicking yourself, you know, things, just playing it all back, playing it all back. Wish you can do it all over again, but you can't. You got to move on to the next.

I too.

It's 2-2.

Yes, it is.

It's 2-2, man.

So speaking of moving on to the next one, we heading to game 5. And going into game 5, what do you think is the most important thing going into game 5 for OKC, who's heading back home, but then also for Indiana who gotta go back on the road. You've given up home court again. You gotta go get it back. What is it heading into game 5 for these guys?

Well, I think game 5 for OKC is more so going back home with some confidence. You know, even though they was losing the entire single game and came back and won the end, that little bit gave 'em the confidence they needed to go win Game 5. You know, they just knew that, oh, we got out of here with one, it's on, you know. So now they can go home and they can regroup. They gonna get their energy from their fans. So now when they, you know, what, what the media been talking about the last two days? Oh, they look tired. It, it, oh, they ain't gonna look tired on Game 5. I promise you they ain't gonna be tired in Game 5.

Very spry.

But the energy is gonna be, they just gonna be pulling energy from the crowd. So I expect You know, OKC to have one of those high-scoring games, though, that 125, 135 type of game, Game 5, my opinion. I feel like the defense gonna create, you know, a lot of tough shots. Like, Indiana getting a lot of good looks, and now it's gonna be Game 5 on the road, and a lot of them looks that they making, even some tough ones, they better shoot a high percentage. And like Game 2, they was in the 30s. And so I think it's a, it's a, it's one of them games where OKC gotta make shots. The more that ball go in the basket, even though they getting it out quick, the more you can get your defense set. The more you score, the more you have energy on the defensive end far as getting stops, 'cause everybody's feeling good. You know, everybody pumping they chest. We scoring the ball. That brings energy on the defensive end also. Mm-hmm. So now, now we got confidence on the offensive end. Now we're running more. Now other guy, I, I just think it's gonna be one of those games for OKC. My opinion, I think it's gonna be a game where OKC dominate. Now then it's gonna be a domination game. Now Indiana gonna have to go back home as far as regroup and send it to game 7. That's my, you know, kind of, kind of perception of what's gonna happen going forward. I just think OKC got away with one. Mm-hmm. You know, I think this was the game and they, and Indiana did what they had to do to get 'em. Yes, they did. You know how hard it was to get these two games they could have got?

Ooh.

That would've won 'em. That would've won 'em a, I'm talking about national, NBA championship, man. That one game that they had.

They had the game. They had the game. Listen, this puts them up 3-1, which moves us on.

Woo, my goodness, man.

As of today in NBA history, only one team scored 41 points each in game 5. And we won, actually. Like, they played out their minds and we won. But I must ask you, we're now headed back to Cleveland for Game 6. Um, what's, what, what, what, what's, what's it— excuse me, we're headed back to Cleveland. You guys win, you guys go take Game 5. Mm-hmm. I'm tripping. So by the way, for y'all out there, we doing this live. Y'all always see this recorded. So I'm tripping right now. And on my rundown, speaking of Game 5, today in NBA history, LeBron and Kyrie score 41 points. They go outta their mind and y'all beat us. Excuse me, because Game 5 is I'm suspended. So both of y'all—

Yeah, yeah.

Both guys go for 41 and we are headed back to Cleveland for Game 6. Like, what's the conversation like now, right? Like—

So Game 5, that was the year before you was thinking about this '16.

Yeah.

So '16, so Game 5, obviously that happened between you and Bron. Game 4, you did us a favor. Like, if you did it today, Adam did y'all.

I ain't do y'all no favor. I did what I was supposed to. Adam did you, but we—

Yeah, that's the whole night. That ain't got nothing to do with me. That got something to do with y'all. Y'all the ones that's up there talking to Adam and stuff, handling that. That's who handle all that. So listen, you did us a favor because by you not being in game 5, that really gave us confidence that we got past game 5. That was the game y'all could have put us away. Like if you play game 5, y'all could have put us away 'cause we just needed something. And the motivation we got going back for game 6 was the whole time going back home, we remember Christmas. Y'all remember, y'all, we played on Christmas that year.

Oh, yes.

But y'all came in there talking about, "Oh, it still smell like champagne up in here." Champagne in there. We never forgot that. We never forgot it. Oh, it still smell like champagne. And we like, damn, that's how they feel. So coming back for Game 6, all we're saying, hey man, they ain't celebrating in the queue. That was all we were saying. And you already know all you need is something. You get what I'm saying? So like, that was the biggest thing. So fast forward, we win Game 6. Going back for Game 7, now we in the mode like, shit, anything can happen type stuff. But what really got our head right was we started talking about how we're gonna be, what we're gonna do during the parade.

Mm-hmm.

This is before Game 7. That's why you start like JR with the shirt. You saw a lot of us with a shirt off, but JR the one that they talk about. But that's what we was, we say stuff, man, I ain't wearing a shirt for a week. I ain't doing it. Like, it's just things that we're kind of putting out in the atmosphere. Like, when we win it, when we win it, when we win it. So it was just that mindset once we got past game 6 and game 7. And obviously, man, I tell people this story all the time, and you can— now you hearing it from someone opposing team perspective. And just to be in that game, hard every possession, understanding how much every single possession matters. I played 12 minutes that game. Every possession I had in that game mattered. My matchup was Sean Livingston. I have to understand his spots. I gotta know exactly what's on the scouting report, where I need to send them, what shot I want him taking. You get what I mean? Mm-hmm. And every single minute that Kyrie on the bench and I'm in the game, like, my minute's important. I can make or break us in these 12 minutes.

Absolutely.

So I just remember just every single possession and just the moment the block happened, the shot happened, just this clock going 0-0, just all those moments when you winning, obviously you had the experience of, doing it multiple times, but just the feeling of when the clock, just imagine your first one, how that felt.

Yeah.

That's how mine felt. You get what I'm saying? You know, so at the end of the day, then you going back to Cleveland, we leave you guys, I don't know if you know this story, I'm assuming you do, but—

We were going to Vegas.

Oh yeah, we were to Vegas, but this the crazy thing though, Dray, this the crazy thing, we had two planes, it was two planes, one plane for the family, one plane for the team, right? They put the family on the plane, they went on to Cleveland. We didn't got in the air for an hour and boom, boom, boom, we in Vegas. We like, what the? We in Vegas, family home, man. We in Vegas till 8, 8, 9 in the morning. Then we fly to Cleveland, man. This shit, 100,000 people like at the airport. It's crazy. 1.5 million people downtown at the parade. 1.5 million.

Wow.

Man, it was an experience like no other.

I bet it was. I remember our first parade in Oakland. Oakland never expected to see a parade, and there was over a million people out there, and it was one of the best days of my life. So I can only imagine that was like for y'all, especially being in the position where it's like, yo, you supposed to lose the series. Exactly. Like, it's over.

Exactly.

I can only imagine what's the what, what that was like. But in speaking of that, that ended up being the last year of your career. Uh, yeah, two-part question. Number one, how'd you end up back in Cleveland for the last year of your career where you became an All-Star? Where you— like, Mo Williams always had a great career and was putting together a good career, but like, you really became one of the ones, in my opinion, like, in Cleveland. Like, yeah, you had 50 before and like all of the things, but like we've seen other guys have 50, like that you think, all right, like that guy had 50, but like I felt like you really became like one of them dudes in Cleveland and then to go there for that last year. What was that whole process like for you?

It was, it was good, man, because that was, I was in, I was in Minnesota We was bad that year. That was the year that Flip passed away, unfortunately, right after that. And me, Ricky Rubio, we just drafted Zach LaVine, and I signed there as a free agent. I was coming off surgery with my thumb, leaving Utah, and I went to Minnesota, and I started playing, you know, toward the—

2010.

First half of the season, you know, Zach, they was trying to bring Zach along. Rubio got hurt, so I started playing a lot of minutes, starting playing 35, 37 minutes. It always works itself out. So I'm hoping, and then all of a sudden, you know, they wanted— we sorry as hell. So they, you know, they trying to bring Zach up, which was a good decision. And Flip came to me. It was crazy because I was supposed to go to Cleveland. Obviously I was supposed to get bought out. Mm-hmm. And go to Cleveland mid-season and play against y'all in the '15 Finals. I would've been against y'all that year. So Flip come to me, he say, "Mo," you know, he said, "I'm gonna trade you, man." So, you know, I'm finna play. This how real Flip Saunders was. He came to me, he said, "Mo, I'mma trade you." No, he said, "Hey, Zach Lavine, young fella, we finna bring him up. He gonna play more than me. You ain't gonna play.", but I'mma, I'mma trade you. So, you know, talk to your agent, y'all get back with me. Said, man, I can't look down at that bench and know you, you know, you should be playing and, um, I can't play. I said, man, that's real. So we had our team, it was obviously LA and it was Cleveland. So, uh, we went to him with those options, you know, me and Rich talked and, uh, Rich, you know, talking through talking to LeBron and he's just like, "Yeah, man, let's figure out how we can get bought out over there and the deal done." So we was kind of working through that. Then Flip came to me and said, "Hey, man, I can't give you away for nothing. That ain't gonna happen." So I end up going to Charlotte and Kemba was down a little bit and they was riding that 9th spot. So they was fighting for a playoff spot. And let me tell you something crazy about that season. Um, I was in Minnesota with Saunders here. I won Western Conference Player of the Year— I'm not playing every year— Player of the Week, Western Conference Player of the Week. I get traded mid-season to the Eastern Conference, Charlotte. Second week there, win East Conference Player of the Week. Look up the, uh, record. The only player that ever did that.

That's fine.

When Player of the Week in both conferences in the same year, obviously you got to get traded But I'm the only player that's ever been done. I looked it up. Now you tell me if I'm wrong, but that's something I could take to my grave right there that I ain't seen happen too often, you know. So obviously— Exactly. So obviously, uh, because guys that good to win those awards don't get traded. Exactly, exactly. So I won Player of the Week in both, both conferences in the same year. So I was a free agent this summer, and you remember Kyrie was hurt. Remember he came back on Christmas against y'all. Yes, he did. You know, the next year. So I was a free agent and I had some option to go some team and get a little money, but it was non-playoff teams or teams that didn't have a chance. And then I started talking to Cleveland, me and Rich talked, me and Griff was talking, Dave was over there, Griffin was over there at the time. So we started talking. They ain't had no money. So basically, you know, they, they like, you know, we come over here, uh, Kyrie gonna be out, we need somebody to come in and start and play heavy minutes. You know, Delly is a backup and we want to keep him in that role. And, um, when Kyrie come back, you know, um, he's gonna play, Delly's gonna play, you just gotta stay ready, you know. So they kind of sold me on that. And just like, man, you know, we, we compete for a championship and, you know, when things open up, we'll be, you know, money. Mm-hmm. We'll be willing to pay you. Obviously you have opportunity to go get it wherever you want to go. So I took that option, you know, 'cause I wanted to win a championship. 'Cause at the moment, at the time, I was even debating being done anyway, not even worried about another contract because actually my knee was messed up and I had another year left on the deal. I just got the surgery and shut it down. And I played through that season. My last season I played through it with a messed up knee. And got surgery after the season and decided to hang it up. But the championship aspect of it really, really made the decision for me. It made the decision easy for me.

Mm-hmm.

And then, you know, then at that time, you know, I had the gym in Dallas, I had the youth team going on and I was coaching. I had got that bug. And, you know, at that point I got, you know, obviously I got 7 boys and all my boys coming up playing. And I wanted to start my second half of my career. I knew I wanted to coach, and eventually I want to, you know, obviously get to a level where I can compete for a national championship. But, you know, I got to grind. I got to pay my dues, you know what I mean? I'm obviously at Jackson State, HBCU, where we don't have all the resources. You know, people don't really understand, like, the things I got to do, um, you know, as far as, like, non-conference schedule. You know, I got to play, you know, the Houstons, the Michigan States, the you know, the dude, the Gonzaga, you know, to get $100,000 a game to raise my budget, which is now $100,000. So, you know, I can pay my salary, our guys can travel the way we need to travel and get the thing we gotta get. But what that do is it, it puts us on the road with 13 straight games. We don't have the schedule to compete like, you know, other teams. And then you look at my record and you say, you know, he's just a 500 coach, but I'm 41-15 in conference play. You get what I'm saying? Absolutely.

You know, but I done played 39 straight on the road.

Road by games, you know what I mean? So, so for me, it's like people don't understand that story, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I, I reach out to people to just try to get people to kind of understand. I— if, if we can just get some support, like, man, we get somebody together because we are 501(c)(3). 501(c)(3). Yeah, you can get all your write-offs because we're a school, we're educational school. So now when we talking about hip and our kind and helping our institution. That's the— that's how we can help us, you know. It ain't about talking about it or putting on whatever. It's a— it's the financial part is the difference in the, the, the Dukes. Not even the Dukes, I'm talking about like the Sam Houston and Louisianas, you know, just, just though that type, that type of level. Like, they, they don't have to go out and play bye games. They have home games. They can, you know, they can do that because they got a million dollars coming in. The difference between those schools, I have to go raise that money by playing games. Now we can function like any other Division I team. But if you can go out, say, I'm just giving this example, I say, Draymond Green, you are our GM, 'cause that's what these schools got, right? You are GM. All you doing is you gonna go to 10 people that you know and say, match my $100,000. Mm-hmm. And they gonna say, all right, Dray, I'm gonna match your $100,000. And you gonna create a, you gonna create an entity. Y'all gonna put that, you gonna get that money, you gonna send it to Jackson State. That entity gonna get a write-off from, from a donation every single year. That creates our budget.

Mm.

You know what I mean? So now I can go play 13 non-conference games where I'm playing North Carolina Central. You know what I'm saying? Where, where I'm playing, you know, you get what I'm saying? Where I'm playing Savannah State, right? Those are games I should be playing. Why should I? I don't— me playing Michigan State, that don't make sense.

Oh, it's just a practice game for us.

But I gotta do it. You get what I'm saying? I gotta go raise $100,000, but that ain't the type of environment you're giving your kid. 'Cause now you gotta think about this. Imagine you wanna see, you have a son and you wanna send your son to HBCU. You played at Michigan State. You want him to have some of the same things that, that you had, you know, the, the all the things that, that school, it can be created at HBCU, but you don't have the capacity to get it done.

Mm-hmm.

You get what I mean? So if you can get people to get involved in a way of getting the money here, now you can go raise money and, and have a meal plan and have certain things. The little things you can't go get 'cause you spending all your money just on raiding for ball games. And getting through your salaries and everything like that. So you just robbing Peter to pay Paul every year instead of building things around. So that's the biggest thing that I want you to know when you around people. It ain't got to be just Jackson State, but just understand HBCUs in general. If they have a, a, a group, and that's something that you can be an initiative, uh, forefront and make that initiative where get groups together and, and get this tied to HBCUs. And as far as financially, put some toward them, you know what I mean? And, and put some toward the men's basketball program or whatever program that they tied to, because that's the difference between, you know, those universities and HBCU, because we all operate the same.

No, and I think, I think let's, let's also take it A step further, 'cause I am a college basketball fan and obviously I watch Michigan State faithfully, but you talk Selection Sunday and all these things. Let's take it a step further. Say y'all do win your conference, but you've lost 13 games to Michigan State, Duke, North Carolina, Gonzaga, blah, blah, blah, because you've had to play these games from a budget standpoint. Better. Now you get the 16-16 play-in game, as opposed to if you didn't have to play those games and y'all are Jackson State but are 29-4.

Exactly.

You may get the 13th seed that don't have to play in, and it, and, and it's, it's just a totally different ball game than the 16-16 You win the 16-16, great, good luck. You play Auburn.

Exactly. And you got no chance.

That as well, right? Like—

I get it. You have no chance. And that's one thing. And we're all fighting for just that one spot you're talking about. And to even go further with that is you take me for example last year. I finished second in the league last year, one game out of first place, right? One game out. And then one game out the tournament. So just think about this. I got 13 non-conference games. I go 0-13 in non-conference. From that point on, when conference play started, I won 16 outta 20 games. You get what I'm saying?

I do.

So imagine if I play a non-conference schedule like anybody else and just say I go 8-5.

Yeah.

That's 24. That's 24 and 9. Now, now I lose that championship game, I'm in the NIT, I'm in some kind of other tournament. I don't even get the opportunity to go into another tournament 'cause I'm 18, I'm 16 and 17. Mm-hmm. I'm below .500, but I done won 16 outta 20 games when conference play start. So that's what I'm trying to change. And the only way I can change that is getting money to the money that I gotta go get to buy money, that $900,000. If I can raise that and give that to the school, now I can create the schedule where it can be balanced, where I can get home games and you get good competitive games just like anybody else play that go. You go look at the UABs, you know, the Tulane, like the FAUs, the, those schools, they're— Yeah. Count— they can— we're on the same level as them. But the difference is they coach only gonna have to go play one of those games.

Yeah.

To go get $100,000. I gotta go get $900,000. That's the difference, you know, because the school— the school aspect, the actual school, the, the athletic department is the department of the school. The school is funding all departments, right? At those schools I'm talking about. At Jackson State Athletic, we create our own budget.

Really?

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Like, the school does— if I don't go out and play $900,000, we do not operate. So I'm not only helping men's basketball, but I'm helping women's basketball, I'm helping volleyball. Football go out and play one game. They only had to play one game and they just hit, they just fund themselves. But I gotta fund three because the other sports are not generate, uh, income-generating sports. I'm the only sport on campus that can go out and raise a million dollars just playing games and getting my ass kicked.

Wow. And, and then they take some of that money and give it to other programs.

Yes. How do you win? My point exactly. I just told you I am 41-15 in conference play in 3 years, but I played 39 straight games on the road. I'm talking about, I ain't playing, I'm playing Missouri, I'm playing Memphis. That's what I'm playing. I went to Missouri and beat them. I went to SMU and I beat them. I went to Georgetown. It's a 4-point game with 2 minutes to go. And George Cooley said, hey, Mo, It ain't gonna be long for you get somewhere, but don't call me no more. I'm not playing. So the difference is now when you talk about me knowing what I'm doing, trying to move up and get other jobs, they look at, man, why he ain't winning games? Because those ADs ain't on this. They don't understand what I gotta go through. So that's why I tell this story enough. You don't know this, you get what I'm saying? So when I call people and I'm like, yo, I need this, I need that. It's hard. Two people have done something for me in the— that I know in the league. Dame sent me $50, CJ sent me $10, you know what I mean? They under— they understand what's going on. But if I can get—

But they're from smaller schools.

Exactly. You know, so I'm trying to get the word because I didn't know this until I got here. We don't— because we got our own lives, we ain't— we don't understand this. We just know when we see non-conference game and it's a SWAC HBCU playing a B-school, they losing by 60. That's all we know. That's all we know. They, they have no business playing them. We have no bit. We have no bit. Why you think, why you think, uh, football has an NCAA and an FCS?

Facts.

They not playing them. Yep. We shouldn't play Duke, we shouldn't play Alabama. Like, they shouldn't be on our schedule. Like, how am I skipping, you know, Louisiana Monroe?

Right.

You know what I'm saying? And going to play them because Louisiana Monroe can't pay $100,000. So I have to go play UConn, Gonzaga, because all they doing is to try to fill, all them schools are trying to fill 3 games on they schedule. So they just gonna go give us $100,000, come up there and get they butt whooped. We ain't got a chance to win the game. That ain't making you no better. You spending time keeping your team together. You get what I'm saying? 'Cause you ain't gonna win the game. The refs ain't gonna let you. It's so much against you. So when I go to Missouri, SEC team, and beat them on they floor, man, we celebrate. Why we celebrate? 'Cause we wasn't supposed to win this game.

Mm-hmm.

That part, you know. So man, if you can, if you can understand that and say, man, you know what, Mo, I'm gonna figure out some way to help you, that'll change our life down here.

I respect. So, so from the NIL standpoint, right, like the actual NIL, did that affect y'all? Or because, because of the problems you're already dealing with, that didn't necessarily come to— you see what I'm trying to say? Mm-hmm. Didn't necessarily come to that level because of the problems you're already dealing with, or did NIL screw y'all even more?

Nah, I think one or both. I think when I say one or both, I mean it didn't screw us, but in some cases it did. When I say it didn't, because It's so many kids out there. It's so many kids. And everybody think they're gonna get $100,000, $200,000, $300,000, so forth, going up. You know, if you want to talk to me, we talking about a select few. But the norm is in the $300,000, $400,000, you know, like $500,000, $600,000. Depends on what level, you know, high major, you know, $700,000 on up. Mid-major gonna be kind of $200,000 up to $700,000. And then when you get down to our level, lower level, you know, any, anything under 100, you know, is good, you know. So, you know, my guys is, you know, uh, they, they're getting good money, you know. And that's another way that, you know, that I— that's, that's part that I have to do. So I can't do nothing for the buy money because I won't have a team if I don't have no money to even get kids, no money. So from that aspect, You gotta be able to have money. On my level, you have to pay guys, and guys are getting paid on our level if you want to be good, you know. Or is it, is it, for example, Michigan, they got players on their team making $2 million.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? We don't have that, you get what I mean? So you come here and get you a nice little number under $100, under $50, you know, you in that range. You living good, you know what I mean? And on our level, you really at the upper echelon, you doing it big, you know, because you have some cases down here where they don't have nothing, you know. So, um, the, the beauty of it is, is there's a lot of guys that get in the portal looking for the money, and on our level, you got to be smart about it. And just— and we're at a point where we have to wait, you know, so when recruiting open up I can't just go out and recruit you right away, you know. I gotta wait till that, that, that domino just keeps falling down, you know, because money gonna dry up.

Of course.

And then, and then when, you know, when that $50,000, $60,000 was, was like disrespectful, now it's almost like, dude, that is 4 grand a month. Okay, all right, I'm making deal. You know, it's different when you don't have nothing, so You kind of just sit on it sometime and get the right kid, you know. You just get the right kid, you know. Do I have kids, you know, that can go to Duke one day? Possibly, you know, but they young, you know, they freshmen, you know. I, I recruit young and I recruit kids, you know, they got an opportunity, um, to play at bigger schools and I sell them. I'm different. I, I get good kids because I sell them on the fact that I want to get you to that level. I want to get you at 'Bama. I want to get you at State. Give me 1 or 2 years, you know, and I got a kid like that last year that was freshman of the year. He'll be a sophomore this year and I expect him to have a big year and get in the portal and go get some money. I got a kid, a guard, man, coming back that was a McDonald's All-American, and got a chance to, got a real chance to be a pro, a real chance. Point guard transferred from me from Ole Miss. Oh, man. The kid is electric. He got hurt, missed last season, came back this season, second in the league in scoring, first in the league in assists. So I got talent, you know what I mean? So like with the team I got, say for instance I play, you know, a respectable schedule, man, I'm 20, 24 wins, you know? You know, it's just a different ball game. So I'm fighting real hard to kind of change that aspect of, 'Cause me personally, man, I don't want to leave. You get what I'm saying? I like the space that I'm in. Like, you're at the crib, though. I'm at the crib, man. I want to build this thing, and I just want to be able to do that for my city. You know what I'm saying? So if I can get hold of you guys and get some people just to understand it and support it, man, watch this thing blow up and be a part of it. Man, I think it'll be something special.

No doubt, man. Now that's good, that's good to hear that. I, I never had any clue, uh, yeah, that was the case. Um, and so just like, just knowing that, I think it, it makes a difference for all of us, just having the knowledge, right? For sure. You don't got the knowledge, you just don't know, right? Like you think all these schools, like it's a college, they don't work like that. That's nope, you know, and, and that's just kind of what you think. So So I think, but I also think, you know, and we'll move on before we get out of here, but I hope in all these rules that they're changing because they're figuring it out, right? Like the NIAA, 4 or 5 years old or something like that, the transfer portal, like they're, I just feel like they're throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

Exactly.

I hope that it ultimately can become a system like Europe. Where, and when I say Europe, I mean European football in particular, where you come get a guy from the lower league, you gotta pay that program $2 million to get that player, you know?

Yeah.

Or maybe it's not $2 million, like that's professional sports, it's PSG, it's Real Madrid, like that's a different, but maybe it's not. But to your point, them having to pay you $200,000, $300,000, that makes a big difference. It's a big difference. I hope to see that, and I think it's only fair that as this thing continues to come into effect and rules continue to change, that when you're getting these kids from these smaller schools, you gotta pay that smaller school.

Mm-hmm.

Gotta give that school a chance. You're gonna come, you shouldn't just be able to free-for-all every year. Up, that player had a good year, and then come here. Like, 'cause I know you.

Yep.

And so I hope it gets to a point to where there's like a transfer fee because this is no longer, um, amateur sports. This is no longer, you know, you, uh, what is it, what they, they call college? I, I, it's so fake. I forget what—

Hey, hey, you want, you want to hear some, you want to hear something crazy? So you want to hear something crazy, Draymond Green? So I was talking to a coach, I don't want to say the name because He told me this in confidence. You talking about NIL. So imagine if this happened to you. So in schools, some schools now, the schools are able to pay the kids right now. Most of the schools now.

Yeah.

But some schools you got a certain date, like say the date is like June 30th, right? That date is the only, like, if you don't spend that money that we giving you for NIL, then it goes away. So listen to this. So your deal is $2 million a year. They got to give you the $2 million June 30th when you get on campus.

So you can leave.

My point exactly. Now you sign, but you on campus. They got to give you all— they ain't giving it to you monthly, 1st and 15th. $2 million in your hand, June. That's a true story. What, man? A coach told me that. I don't even need my money like that. My point exactly, said they had to use it because it would have went away, went away on that date, so they had to give it to him or they wouldn't have had. Imagine that. What would you— man, I've been in college, 18, 19, 20 years old, you just give me $2 million. Come on, man. That's insane.

Good for them.

That's what— now that's when you say they gonna have to make something, you know. But that, from the changes they just made, created that though. Think about it. So really, you didn't help it, you created another issue.

Oh yeah, you created more.

Because, because of the new rule, that's what that school had to do.—

But I actually think the NCAA did that on purpose. Like, I think the NCAA wanted to throw this whole thing in everyone's face. Like, boom, there you go. Got it. Let it blow up in everybody's face.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what y'all want here.

That's what, that's what, that's what I believe happened. But I, a couple questions before we get outta here. Just talking about the NBA. Number one, and I would love to see I would love to know your answer to this question because of who you were in your career and that line you walked, right? Of like being an all-star, being a guy who got it. But for the past few weeks, it's been this constant conversation about players that's a superstar or not.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I think my question to you is, how would you describe a superstar in the NBA? We all saw Magic the other day say, a person who can go on the road and sell the building out. How do you describe—

Nah, that's just marketing, you know what I mean? You know, I feel like, you know, superstar is, I'm talking about pure on the court. He, you know, that's marketing and that's just selling stuff. And you don't have to be a superstar to sell stuff. You gotta just be marketable. When you talk about a superstar, I'm talking about somebody that can galvanize a whole franchise. You get what I mean? Like Steph is a superstar. You know what I'm saying? Just his aura, just off when that moment, and not just to take Steph out of just what I'm just talking about a superstar now, just in any moment, understanding on how big that stage is and always able to step up into that, their spot of whatever it is that they do best on how they are a superstar. I feel like a superstar is so— is someone that no matter what the opponent has in front of them, they can overcome it. No matter if it— they might get knocked down, they may got stopped in this series or this game, you know, but At the end of the day, he's gonna figure that out. That's a superstar, you know. I'm a role star, you know what I'm saying? So at the end of the day, it's moments where, shit, I can't do nothing tonight. I mean, they own me. First of all, I'm on the side of had 3 good games. They got a scheme on me. They ain't really worried about Bron tonight. They feel like we take Mo out, then, you know, let Bron get his 40 tonight. He ain't even really aggressive tonight anyway. Then I'm just gonna struggle a little bit. It ain't nothing I can do, you know what I mean? They scheme got me. But a superstar, it ain't nothing you can do. You just gotta just hope that they ain't— they don't figure it out, their game, and they don't figure out their series. And, you know, they just— whatever you created, you know, it just, you know, obviously just kept them in a funk, you know. Just— I'll take '16, for example. Just— that was kind of the first season where We just kind of just, our scouting report was anytime Steph is around, you better not go by him without touching. Like every time you see him, touch him, boom. And JR just happened to be in the screen with him the whole time and he just taking advantage. He leaning into it, you know what I'm saying? So like that was something that we did, you know what I'm saying? That was in the scouting report. That's something that we talked about. You know, making sure we physical, making sure we hitting them, making sure we hitting them, making— because he never wanted to switch, you know. So we was make them switch, hit them, you know. So when you understanding that, you look at Steph now, you can't do that to Steph today.

You know what I'm saying? Does not work. So how many, so how many superstars do you say are actually in the NBA?

Be honest, be honest.

I think people get the superstar tag and they not superstars.

Yeah. Hey, listen, man, that's a small room, dog. You know how, bro, they don't even, it ain't even no key to that room. Like you gotta like get it stamped on you and it just automatically open when you get there. You get what I'm saying? Like you talk about superstar, I mean, Let's, you know, obviously Bron, you got obviously, like, that ain't even to talk about. I put Steph in that category, obviously. Giannis, and when I say Giannis, in my opinion, because I don't give a damn, man. Man, you can't listen, man. That's Giannis. You understand exactly what I'm saying. It ain't no guarding him. It's just scheming for him. What we gonna give them, what we forcing them into. Like, that's a sign of a superstar too. It's like, man, we finna go out here and guard him, we finna shut him down. Nah, man, we forcing him into this right here all night long. And if he go get 40 right here, this— it is what it is, you know. Um, I gotta pause, man, because I can't just get it out like that, you know. I don't just want us to be saying names. I mean, Kua. Kua. I mean, ooh, that's that. I mean, yeah, but you straddling when you get to, you know, like he's a star. Like James Harden a star. He's like a really good star, you know? Like, man, superstar, like that's almost, when you talk about superstar, you almost talking about Man, that's, it's tricky, man. Like legend stuff, man, you talking about AIs and like, that's almost disrespectful to the AIs.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Like, man, I remember my second year in the league, man, I'll never forget this. Third year, might've been my third year, man, this the year after, 'cause he won the championship, he won MVP in '04, this gotta be 2005. Man, we playing Philly in Milwaukee. AI scoring champion the previous season, MVP. My first year start and on my second year start, we playing in Milwaukee. He first half 15 points. Make a long story short, first half 15 points, we go halftime, tear Porter to hype me up. "Draymond Green doing a hell of a job, man, over there. Keep it up." You know, so you coming out, you come by the tunnel. I gotta walk, come by tunnel, they tunnel. So he gotta go to his goal, we go to the goal, we gotta walk by each other. So, you know, I'm walking by, I remember what Coach said in there, but I'm young, it's my third year. So walking by AI, AI walked by and said, See, a young fella outta sweat at the lookout. That's all he said, Draymond Green. That's all he said. But we never stopped. He said it as he walking by, hey young fella, I done sweated at the lookout. And we just know, I just act like I ain't hear him, but I heard him. He finished the game 54. That's a true story. And Tito Hill, man, we walked by each other and said, hey young fella, I swear to that lookout, it's over. Paid 54.

Jesus Christ.

That's a true story. That's a true story, true story, man. Like everybody asking, that's a superstar.

That's Steph Curry in the front of Boston bench in 2022 saying, this y'all last win in in this finals and that actually being your last win. Obviously that's a different thing, it's the NBA finals. But only superstars can do that.

We once—

Exactly. I don't know if the story's true, but we once heard a story of Patrick Bradley saying, you had the last 5 years, I got the next 5 years. Superstars can say that. But you have to be a superstar because You have to be able to control so much. Yep. Only superstars, and by the way, when I say only superstars, like 4 to 5 of them. There's not many.

That's it, that's it. Like, man, as much as I love KD, like, much as I love KD, like, he's a star, like—

I don't think KD a superstar.

No!

No, no, no, KD—

I'm not disrespecting him on that, but what I'm saying is—

But, but—

Okay, I'm with you, I'm with you.

And I'm gonna tell you why I say KD a superstar.

Because I was gonna say like superstar right here and like KD, like, like to me, he like, he like, he like, man, they ready to open the door for him.

I'm gonna tell you why KD is a superstar.

But you play with him though, you play with him.

I'm gonna tell you why KD is a superstar. No matter where you place him, he can do the same exact thing. Okay. I don't care if he's on my team, your team, LeBron James team, uh, Nikola Jokic team, Steph Curry team.

All right. Kawhi.

So, so he can do the same exact thing on no matter where he is. That's what—

All right. So now you, you opening it up a little bit now.

So James Harden, has he done the same exact thing Anywhere else outside of Houston?

KG.

Okay.

See, you, okay. That's what I'm saying.

When you— Superstar.

That's what I'm saying. When you say, when, when you, when we locked in on KD like a no-brainer superstar, then that's when the KGs, when you start talking KGs, the— because KG is a super— you, you get what I'm saying? Now it's like they're, they're, they're no-brainers. You get what I'm saying? When I, When we were talking about like superstar, like transcended, like 4 or 5.

LeBron, Steph, AI.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like now that list get a little bit bigger.

I see what you saying.

You know what I'm saying? It get bigger now. When we ain't really, you know, locked in on just kind of 2 qualities and we just open it up, it's just kind of like the bag, then you can start, You know, not a Paul Pierce's coming question. All right, I like that. You get what I'm saying?

All right, we go back.

You get what I'm saying? So not a Paul Pierce coming question. You know, he like borderline almost now. You get what I'm saying? And we started to broaden it up a little bit.

Definitely not in the category, no disrespect to the truth, I think he is the truth, but he's—

But you get what I'm saying?

Category.

But you've given me too much space. Exactly.

I can't argue that one. Say no more. I can't argue that one. I respect.

But that's why that's a touchy— that's why that's been a topic for a month or so now.

Yes, sir.

Because we respect people so much where I feel like KG, I feel like AIs, and all them guys are superstar, but everybody like, how do you— It just all depends on how you categorize superstars. You know, some people is like, nah, bro, it ain't number 2. Mike and Bron, that's it. You know what I'm saying? Kobe ain't even there. I done heard that.

That's idiotic.

You get what I'm saying?

Listen, I follow you on—

Oh, that's just a brawl. That's a brawl. And I take that back about KD, 'cause now the more I think about it, I just felt like I disrespected him. You feel me? So it's like, you get what I'm saying? When you think about it, you know, it's like, Okay, if you brought it up, KD a no-brainer. You know what I'm saying? He on the same level as AI, KG. Yeah. 'Cause if they superstars, it's a no-brainer for KD. But if you saying, hey man, they gotta be on Mike and Bron level, and I'm like, well, shit, ain't I number 2 of them, 3 of them?

From a basketball perspective, KD and Allen Iverson are definitely on it. And KD's a 2-time champion, right? And by the way, I'm the biggest Allen Iverson fan. Shout out to the OG, just had a birthday. Happy birthday to him again. Happy 50th. But from a basketball perspective, I feel like what KD bring to the game and what AI brought to the game is very similar. Where it differs is AI changed the whole culture.

Yeah.

And he changed the whole way of how we all look at the game. How we felt like we can act, how we thought we could dress, how we— like, he changed so many different things. And I think that's what makes AI a little different. But no, no, I—

KG, I mean, KD got the same effect though.

He does. KD got everybody who's over 6'7" thinking we should dribble and shoot. Yep.

And how authentic he is. You get what I'm saying? Just how he talk.

Authentic.

A woman of God. Yeah, so I think he has an AI kind of feel, you know, from a superstar standpoint, you get what I mean? So the superstar that was in the league at that time with AI had their own persona. Now the superstars in the league along with KD, the Bronzes and the Stephs, they got a whole different persona than KD. KD kind of the AI of this group.

Mm-hmm. No, 1000%. I agree. My last question before we get outta here, and I think this is an interesting question for me. You played with Bron before he went to Miami. You also played with Bron after he left Miami. What was the, what was any difference that you've seen in—

Maturity. Maturity. Um, all the little things. Um, maturity. Just older, you know, just doing things, just, you know, maturity. You know, the first time I was there, he, he did all the things he was doing when, when he got back, but he was doing it better and he was doing it, you know, more precise. You know, he had it, he had it dialed in. You know, when they talk about, you know, him taking care of his body, you know, He was doing that the first time, but when I got with him the second time, it was like clockwork, you know what I'm saying? I knew what times he was gonna be down there. It's gonna be early morning when he doing this. You know what time, how early he get to the game. You know when he gonna be already gonna be there, shoot around when we get there. You know he gonna be at the gym before the first bus get there. You know he getting a massage. Like, I still remember that routine 'cause I saw it so much every single day. And, um, that was the difference I saw. And obviously that translated to the court just off him just playing games and getting older and just being better and being, you know, one of the greatest players. And his game just matured. He just— everything got better. And obviously as he— the second time around, he shot the ball a whole lot better. I think that's a— that's one of the biggest things that, you know, that, that part of his game kept growing and obviously got to the point where he at. But just the maturity in his game, I'll say, Just out the decision-making, just being more sharper, just understanding spots on how to go get a bucket when he wanted to. I think he's always been a great feel for the game. And I think just the development on the just going to get a bucket, you know, understand, you know, you understand the game, you know, you know guys that I can go get a bucket when I want to go get a bucket. And you know, some guys ain't really about that life. So it just depends on how they feel on how they going that day. On how aggressive they gonna be, you know. I thought, you know, so I thought the, the, uh, that part of the game when he needed to go get a bucket, he knew how to get to his spots and get an efficient shot that he knew he can make.

No, that's fire, man. Man, I appreciate you for coming on the show, bro. Uh, obviously want to wish you Happy Father's Day.

Uh, absolutely, same to you, man. It's crazy, I was laying down today and my wife was like— I saw it on the ground, I said, man, Father's Day Sunday. She said, yeah, fool. And I got 7 kids, I should know that.

By the way, I saw Mace got a few offers, huh?

He did, man. He balling. Yeah, he balling, man. Nah, he balling, man. About 6'3", 6'4". You know, point guard, handling that thing. Got a good body. Nah, he gonna be straight. And my other son is a freshman with me. So I got, yeah, yeah. But you know, my other one, the one you talking about, I ain't gonna say him, he getting some offers. So DePaul just called about him today. So he got Washington, he got Louisiana, I mean, he probably New Mexico State, probably about 10 offers now. So been proud of him, man. Hey man, I'm a, you know, I'm a proud dad, man.

That's a fact.

Proud dad. Just got back from the NBA Top 100 camp with him, man. Man, it's a blessing, man. I got one of my sons that's on my staff. My oldest son is one of my assistant coaches. You know, coaching my son, he a freshman. Then I got this one about to be a senior in high school. They're gonna be able to pick wherever he want to go. Um, man, I've been— I, I was in the NBA Top 100 camp. My one that's assistant coach was in that camp. My freshman that was in the camp last year, he was— so, man, I'm blessed, man. Like, I don't have no complaints, dog. I got 7 boys, man, so I get to, you know, do this thing over and over again. That's why I'm in coaching, man, just to I love what I do, man. I love what I do. I love where I'm at. I appreciate, I appreciate you guys, like, you know, guys like yourself, man, that, you know, the friendships that I created over my life, man. And I just sit back, man. I, I don't do much, man, you know. I just love what I do. I coach, be around my kids, and sit on my acres, you know, in Mississippi, post it up, man.

I love it, man. That's incredible, bro. I'm happy for you. I was rooting like hell for y'all to get that one last game and get in there.

Yeah.

But it's coming this year. It's definitely—

No doubt. Godspeed, man. Everything don't happen, you know, everything happens for a reason. There's a reason I ain't win that part, but it's coming.

There's definitely—

No doubt.

I appreciate you, brother. Thank you.

I appreciate you.

I just wanna mention again, Showing me how to take care of guys that come after me. You know what I'm saying? Like what you did for me, I could never thank you enough. It showed me, it just showed me more. You know what I'm saying? It showed me what it could become for me. And then it also showed me what it need to look like for the guys that come after me. And you ain't know me from a can of paint. You know what I'm saying? Like I ain't grow up with somebody you brought up or in your neighborhood. You ain't know me from a can of paint. You just saw a young dude in the NBA trying to make it and to take me in like that, I'll never forget it. And I appreciate it. And we gonna have some more conversations about Jackson State, 'cause you know, I'm a proud Michigan State donor.

No doubt. You already know I'm Roll Tide all day.

I'm a proud Michigan State donor, but you know, I got a lot of respect for what you doing. And just hearing that meant a lot to me. So I hope, someone out there heard what I heard and feel how I feel and want to bring or help, you know what I'm saying? Exactly. It's hard to carry it all, but just to offer a helping hand. So we'll be chopping it up about that for sure.

I appreciate that. I appreciate it, man. It's all love, man. Love you, man. Appreciate you, man. Keep doing what you're doing, dog.

Appreciate you coming on. All right, boy. Yes, sir. To the rest of y'all out there, that's a wrap from this episode of the Draymond Green Show. We just had a legend on here, but like I said, even more than legend, somebody who cared about the next guys because that's what keep this thing going is, you know, you see the finished product, but you don't see the people going through it and the people that's offering a helping hand, the vets. Like vets is a missing thing in this league today. And I am a product of great vets. Jermaine O'Neal, David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Karl Landry, Richard Jefferson, Mo Williams, the guy who took me under his wing I ain't play with, you know, and I'm a product of that. So I always had the utmost appreciation for guys like that. And I always try to be that guy to the guys that come after me. And hopefully I can help like Mo helped me and we can continue this thing rolling so the fans get what they want. Till next time, that's a wrap from this episode of the Draymond Green Show with Baron Davis. We'll see him next time. Peace. Peace.