Jamal Crawford on battling Steph Curry, Wemby's greatness, the GOAT 6th man | Draymond Green Show

What's up everybody? Welcome to the Draymond Green Show YouTube channel. Make sure you hit that subscribe button. Make sure you like the post that you love, but you can get everything the Draymond Green Show right on our YouTube channel. So make sure you subscribe, check that out. Thank you. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show. I am honored to host this next guest, which has already been on the Draymond Green Show. Sixth Man of the Year 3 times, made that whole thing about a sixth man have any relevance. So we gonna get into that. But first off, we're live. Well, live to you, not necessarily live right now, but we're at Hinkle Fieldhouse in Indianapolis, Indiana. All-Star Game. But this legendary place, honor, thank you to Butler University for having us in this gym. Now, I see this banner up here, Final Four 2010 banner. And I'm not happy about it because Gordon Hayward fouled me to get that banner.

He clearly fouled you.

It's insane. On the front of the newspaper, his hand is like this.

Oh yeah, that's a fact.

We're down one to go to the national championship. And so yes, they would've had the banner, but it says national finalist. And that should've been me. And I think that we would've won the championship. Nonetheless, I'm thankful to be here. Maul, welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back. Repeat offender. Absolutely.

Yes, sir.

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Man, I, I got a lot of topics to get into it with you. Um, one being, and, and I wanna jump right into this. I think, you know, when we start looking at the NIL culture, and where college basketball is going, it's all stemming from AAU.

Yes.

And what AAU has done. And you are at the heart of that with Seattle Rotary. Your young fella, JJ, coming up in the pipeline. Just wanna start off with what's your take on where the AAU game is right now?

That's a great question. And I wasn't really a part of AAU coaching before him. To be honest with you. Like how many years you play AAU coming up?

I played AAU from 6th grade to 12th grade.

I played AAU 2 years.

Really?

Period. So I played in 5th grade, left, went and worked on my game and came back and played my last year.

That's interesting.

So I wasn't really hip to how AAU works, to be honest with you. Then I got back in it through him just being a parent. I was a parent before I started coaching that kept score. I was just keeping score. You know, I didn't mess with the coaches. I was just right there just keeping score. And that was that. It gave me a way to kind of watch him in peace a little bit. You know what I'm saying? So I just kept score. And then as fate would have it, I started being an assistant coach. The coach asked me, Darryl Hennings, shouts out to him. He runs the whole program. It's his program. And then I got to become the coach. And what I've seen is it's kind of nasty in some ways.

Yeah.

In some ways it's kind of, I'm gonna be honest with you, it's kind of nasty from the standpoint, some of these coaches, They want the top kid, they wanna fly kids around. And I'm not faulting the kid at all. 'Cause if you coming from where we come from and somebody's like, I'm gonna get you some shoes, some flights to see the rest of the country. Parents, they trust the coach, it's all good. But them coaches, man, they're playing through kids in some regards. They're not really helping them.

Mm-hmm.

They'll have, you know, just older kids or whatever it is to try to say, look at me, look what my team is doing. Your guy Trav, does it right. One of the few to do it right. I mean, like we've talked where it's like, he's really pouring into the kids. He's not for the wins and losses. Now he's trying to help them later. And that's what we're trying to do myself. We're one of the only staffs that have all 3 coaches that played D1.

Wow.

Myself, Keith Smith that played at Oregon and Pepperdine, and Rael Hennings that played at UC Davis. And so what we're doing is with our team, we're trying to, we watching film, we're practicing 3 times a week. We're doing the skill stuff that's like what's in your bag, but we're doing the skill stuff like, nah, fuck what's just in your bag handling. This may be a catch and shoot game. This may be a game you gotta take charge. This gotta be a game you gotta give yourself up to get the team, you know, good shots. So we're teaching that. 'Cause we're teaching them how to play now, but more importantly, how to play later and be good young men. So for us, that's what it's about.

So that leads me to my next question. A lot of young NBA, well, a lot of NBA players now have sons that's coming up. You got JJ, Draymond Green, Trevor Ariza Taj.

Yeah.

Gilbert Elijah. And there's been a lot of talk about Gilbert and his approach with his son and everybody else's approach. And I think Gilbert has been very public about it and saying he wanted his son to learn how to carry. And so he kind of sent him to a school that's not great basketball. I think it's Chatsworth or something.

Uh-huh.

Not great basketball team. But he's the man and he get to do whatever. And that's a different approach, right? Like, and then you have some people that, you know, send their kids to powerhouse. I know you went to Rainier. I don't know if you would send JJ there or not, but—

Uh-huh.

What's your take on kind of the approach of sending your kid to a team that is essentially trash and he get to do what he want, but may not necessarily be learning how to play the game the right way or going to a powerhouse like Rainier where there's a pedigree, you gonna play it right way. Coach probably been there for a while or there's some type of history there that you follow. What's your take on those two philosophies?

That's a great question. So for us, let's just say at Rotary right now, I feel like we got 9 players. I feel like basically all 9 would be the best. They can go to any other team and be the best player. But I have all them playing as a team. And for me, that's needed because I want them to go from good to great. Yeah, you have to be a dog and a killer. But for me, setting the foundation for them, I want them to know how to play the right way. So we actually call ourselves the Warriors. If you watch us play, like, the ball's hopping, we've mastered random, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, and Trav will tell you, like, we shoot a lot of threes, but they're generated off of, like, good plays, good possessions. So I'm teaching them to function playing with other good players.

Yes.

Now for JJ especially, he's playing up. Right? So they're 8th graders, he's in 7th. So he knows he's— man, he benefits a lot of it off because of the ball movement. But next year he's gonna have to play 8th grade.

Mm-hmm.

And he's gonna have to carry a load. But he's ready for that too. So what I did to supplement that is I had him play for a school team. I had him play feeder and he does that there. So he's getting the best of both worlds. But I think knowing how to play is the most important thing. 'Cause as you know, you better than anybody, as the higher you go, the smaller the box gets of greatness for everybody. But it's also like, this is the top of the top. So you can't just go in there being a one-man band. You can't just go in there being a one-man show. You have to learn, the better you get and the higher levels you go, you have to learn to play with good players.

Absolutely.

So either way, it's gonna be an adjustment. But I think you still get that dog. And I'm not faulting Gilbert, 'cause he's doing it his way and it's working. So yes, but at a certain point, even his son's gonna have to conform and know how to play with other people and still not lose himself while doing it. Yes.

I think that's a very important thing and not losing yourself. 'Cause you sometimes you get to the league or it happens for different people at different stages. Right, different times. Sometimes it's high school for some guys, college for some guys, NBA for some. Like I was a scorer till I got to the NBA.

Right.

You know, and then you gotta like, "Figure it out." Right. You know, and so, but I think that's interesting from you because what I've watched in you all these years and playing against you, but even going further back and just watching before I ever got to the NBA, you've always known how to play the game the right way. But yet you've also had coaches that's like, "Here, Mal, go do your thing." Go do it.

Right. Go do your shit.

Here, go to ball. You call a pick and roll whenever you want to. You flatten out, you call iso whenever you want to. Like, and it sounds like that's what I'm hearing you say. Like, I'm essentially training JJ to be the same thing where he can mix you, he got all the stuff, but yet he know how to play the game.

And with JJ, right? And let's say he plays his grade and he's like, "Dad, I can get 40." I'm like, "Yeah, 40 is cool. I would rather have you get 28 and 12 assists." Yes. That's more than 40. And I told him, I said, Luka, how much did he have? You said he had 73. I said, yeah, but he had 13 assists too. The trick is this, all great scores, the more you pass, the easier it is to score. Right? 'Cause you put them in a trick bag. So if you have, even the game, my last game, I had 51 points, I had 5 assists.

Yes.

Right? So I'm like, if Luka only had 5 assists that game, that may have been a 55-point game. 'Cause they know he's just gonna score. But the fact he has 73 and now he has 14 assists, they don't know how to guard him. They put him in a trick bag. If I can make, if I could have JJ look at one player, just one player, and he had to study one player, it would be Penny Hardaway, but a better shooter. 'Cause I want him to be able to really like to do this as well as score. And right now with him playing up, the physicality kind of bothers him to do that. 'Cause he can actually pass and dribble as good as he can shoot, but you don't, you'll never know it until he kind of, his physicality catches up to his game.

That's incredible. And switching gears, you just, you just spoke about having, you just spoke about having 51 points. And I mean, you've done that, but I wanna talk about something with the NBA and with veterans and how it kind of happens for guys towards the end of the career. And it's becoming more and more prevalent now, especially with the new CBA and stuff.

Right.

You got veteran minimums where a veteran could be making $3 million and they could take a young kid—

They get paid on the other side, right.

For $1.1 million.

Right.

In a situation like the Golden State Warriors, that $3 million is actually $15 million.

It's 15? Through the tax and everything else?

Through the tax. And so—

Damn, I know it's that high still.

'Cause we're in the repeater tax.

Yes.

And now you got that first April, second April, if I'm not mistaken, I think we're already at the second April. And so the penalties are crazy, but it's putting guys in a tough situation as well. Here you are, you score 51 points and then the next year you're not on an NBA roster. How is that possible? You know? And so just where the league has kind of gone in a sense of veterans and the effect that is having on these young guys. What's your take on that?

It's awful, Jay. And this, and this the thing for me, and I've heard you speak about it before, when you had the David West, Jermaine O'Neals, right? Like all those vets to really kind of set the tone for your career. I had Oak. I had Rick Brunson, I had Kendall Gill. I didn't know what I didn't know until I saw them guys. Oh no, being on time is being an hour and a half early if you're a young fella.

Yeah.

Right? Staying after, you can't eat McDonald's before the game no more. Like that stuff set the foundation for my career. I think that's what's missing. For me personally, I win Teammate of the Year the year before. I go to Phoenix, at first we're trying to win. They say we're trying to win, we're trying to make the playoffs. You can go back and check it out. Trevor Ariza gets traded, Tyson Chandler gets traded. Now it's just me and Ryan Anderson there. So now we went from trying to make the playoffs. So we just, we going young. And so now you gotta be a good vet, right? Yep. And you should want to because you've had your run, but you know, it's the younger guys' turn. That month, the younger guys are like, they're not, a lot of them not playing. And now I have my highest scoring month of my career. I have 31 for the month of April.

Wow.

31.6 assists off the bench. And we won half the games and we didn't win shit that year. So winning half the games is impressive. Absolutely.

And— Y'all were getting mopped that year.

I remember. I was getting killed.

I remember that year.

Absolutely. And so winning half the games was something to me. I averaged 31, 6 assists. In the last game, I get 51 and 5 off the bench. I just won Teammate of the Year. I'm like, oh, I know I'mma get a deal. I'm not saying I'mma get anything above minimum, but I know I'mma get a contract.

Yes.

I get nothing. And so I went through moments of depression. Damn, I couldn't even watch basketball. Bro, I couldn't even watch. As much as I love basketball and love the guy, I couldn't even watch basketball for a year and a half. I didn't watch basketball at all. At all. And then the bubble happened. And I came back for that. And that's a whole nother story. But I hadn't played in 16 months or whatever. But I was depressed and I didn't know it. And my wife told me, she like, you would go to rooms and just kind of just disappear. Come back. And I've never said this. I would go to rooms and kind of disappear, then come back with the fam and just like, 'cause I couldn't understand why I was not getting a call. I didn't understand it. And all these same teams, "Why don't you come be a coach? Why don't you come run the front office?" I'm like, "Oh, so you respect my mind, you respect that, but you just don't want me on the court." Yes. And that part messed me up. And it took me a while to get there. And then I had to be really reflective. I'm like, okay, If God said you have to go out, this is the best way I could send you out. 'Cause you know, obviously he knew, but it was just crazy to me. And I think Isaiah's going through it right now. Not the depression part, but just certain days where you just, you know, you're like, damn. And I think what it is, is I think when you've had a following for a long time and you go to a team, that fan base is gonna wanna see you. And that could be kind of a distraction for a team that's trying to grow young people.

Interesting.

And it took me a while to get to that point.

Interesting.

So if my name was Jamal Johnson and I was, you know, just the same vet, maybe I get signed with the same credentials. Maybe I get signed. But if I'm me and I have some type of following and people want to, "No, put him in the game," it could be a distraction. But what I will say to answer your question, sorry that was so long-winded.

No, that was great.

I appreciate it. I think there should be a rule that on every team you need 3 guys that have 10 years or more experience. Because you can help like slow some of the things that are happening down with the younger generation on, and especially off the court. 'Cause you know, we vet, we see it like, no, no, no, slow down. Like you gotta move like this. And if they just have one and it's still a bunch of young guys, that's not fix— they gonna be like, man, this old dude. But if you have 3 or 2 or 3 are like, no, no, y'all need to slow down or you need to slow down. I think they hear it a little bit differently. I think that should be a mandatory. It'll help the league. I think it'll help the young players. It helps set their foundation.

I agree 100%. I always talk about my vest that I had and how important they were to my career. Like you was just talking, Jermaine O'Neal, Jared Jack, Carl Anthony, David West, Zaza Pachulia, David Lee. Like the list goes on and on. Andrew Bogut, like Andre Iguodala. Yes. You know, and like—

You just named 7 right there.

Like I played with all those guys, all those guys I just named with between years 1 and 5. I played with all those guys. And the things that they taught, Richard Jefferson.

Yeah.

Yeah, they have RJ.

Okay. The things that they taught me, like when you look at my demeanor on the basketball court, when I first came into the league, like I was me, but I'm like, man, I can't get texts. I can't do this. And RJ was like, yes you can. You should get texts. That's the only way you gonna make it. It's like being that guy. "you have to be okay with that." And I'm like, "Yeah, RJ, but I don't want the fine." At the time, I'm making a few dollars. I'm a second round pick. Like, "I need this." And he like, "But you have to look at it as an investment in yourself." That's real.

He's like, "You just have to be okay with that because who you need to be for this team, you gotta be okay with getting some of that." Speaking to you, when you just said, it just hit me when you said, when you start playing and David Lee, A lot of people don't know David Lee was an All-Star. I'll tell you a conversation I've never said before. I remember it vividly. You could ask Steph. At the time, I had some buzz to make the All-Star. So did Steph.

Yep. Yep.

And I remember the game before, maybe a week before they pick. I'm like, Steph, you think? He's like, I think it's gonna be me or you. One of us gonna make it. David Lee makes it.

David Lee made it. I remember that.

David Lee makes the All-Star. Fast forward a little bit, you basically replace and kind of take over that position. We played you in the playoffs.

Mm-hmm.

And we're all on the side like, oh shit. Like we knew what was coming. Not the run you guys were going. I'm not saying that. But you personally, we like, he's a dog. He's a dog and he can do it all. And that gave you guys a whole different versatility.

Absolutely.

And that made us like, it gave us pause like, oh man. 'Cause you can do so many things that can't be accounted for and can't be duplicated, especially with your group, right? So we're like, damn, we knew you guys were coming. We just didn't know like how, where we would go, but we knew you were gonna be at the center of it.

And it was very interesting how it happened too, because you know, as you know, during that time you got Blake DJ.

Yes.

You got Zach. And Marc Gasol. You got Roy Hibbert and David West. You got like, you still had Timmy and Tiago Splitter or Timmy and Boris Diaw. Moral of the story, you still had like two bigs, like—

Traditional, like bigs.

Traditional bigs at the time. Marcus Aldridge at the four in Portland. Like you got real bigs. And it was interesting how it worked out because that wasn't me. You know, like I could bang with those guys too. We were just talking about Michigan State and everything that I learned with physicality and all of those things. I could bang with those guys. So, and I wasn't gonna back down, but I was very much so undersized for the position.

For sure.

And so the way it didn't all, you look at it now and it's like, it feels like an eternity ago because the way the game is played now.

He was way ahead of the curve. Do you give Mark Jackson credit for that? Like—

You know what I give Mark Jackson credit for? Because here's what I will, like, I can't give Mark Jackson all the credit for that style. And by the way, Coach Jackson, to me, is like, that's like, it still baffles me that he's never gotten an NBA job.

Oh, I can't believe it.

It's insane.

I say all the time, it's crazy.

It's insane. I can't give him credit for that per se because The switch for me starting like permanently actually came under Steve.

Okay.

I don't personally think Mark had the blessing or okay to even be able to do that. 'Cause you think at the time D'Lea is making $16 million a year.

And her All-Star.

And All-Star.

Right.

And this is at the time where 16 is max, you know, like—

Yes. 16 is 40 now.

Exactly.

Right.

Like people hear 16, they're like, oh, Like that was max at that time.

Right.

And so I don't think he necessarily had the power to even be able to put me in the starting role. Whereas opposed to when Steve came in, Steve came in with a whole different power. People forget when Steve first came in, he came in with a 5-year, $25 million deal.

Sure did.

When that was a ton for coaches.

Yeah, for sure.

He was a first-time coach.

Yeah.

He came in with a totally different power. And so, but what Mark, but where I do give Mark credit is the confidence that he instilled in us to be okay with being us. The confidence that he instilled in Steph to be like, "Nah, dude." Like, I can remember vividly conversations with him like, "Nah, dude, you the baddest dude on the planet." This is before Steph Curry's an All-Star.

Bro, he said Steph and Klay were the best shooting backcourt. We all was like, "Is he crazy?" What's wrong with you? Everybody though.

Absolutely. "Russ, what's wrong with you, dude? Why are you saying these things?" We're like, we're in meetings, we're in locker room, we're in practice. And he's like, "Dude, you're the baddest dude on the planet." And I'm just sitting there like, this dude's really telling him he's the baddest dude on the planet. Right. Steph was just now starting to come into his own. Like coming off the ankle injury. I remember my rookie year, starting my rookie year before, Training camp actually starts. This is when they're in talks about giving Steph the 4-year, $44 million contract.

And he signed. And Ty Lawson, Drew Holliday, all signed that same deal.

DeMar DeRozan, they all signed the same deal. And I remember this clearly. Steph came in for an individual workout. The owners, front office, doctors, everybody sitting at his workout as if we're sitting here at Hinkle Fieldhouse and Steph is working out right there.

—like going through draft process or something.

Watching his workout because he was coming off the ankle surgeries. So they're trying to figure out through a workout, is he healthy enough to give him this $44 million?

That is crazy.

It's the most unbelievable thing. Meanwhile, Mark Jackson is telling this man, you the baddest dude on the planet. Klay Thompson, like Klay has no conscience.

Zero.

Sometimes to a fault, but guess what? What I've learned is your biggest fault can also be your biggest strength, right? And so sometimes even to a fault, most coaches would have essentially forced him to have a conscience.

For sure.

Mark Jackson fed that like, "No, dude, you don't think, shoot. Like what are you thinking about? Shoot the ball." Right. "You're that good of a shooter. This the best shooting backcourt of all times, blah, blah, blah." And so what Mark instilled in us allowed us to become that. Because the confidence—

That he gave.

That he poured into us. I remember the very first day I stepped on, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people call me too small. Like, "Oh, he too small for the position." So David Lee got the ball in the post. D. Lee, that's my dog, that's my vet. D. Lee got the ball in the post. And you know D. Lee, you played with D. Lee.

He's my rookie, he's your vet. That's crazy.

D. Lee's an asshole.

Yeah.

Like, I love him to death.

Smart aleck and all that. I love him too.

Asshole, but it's D. Lee. So D. Lee gets the ball, he catch the ball in the post. I'm on this side and he's like, "Oh, I got a mouse. I got a mouse. Mouse, y'all better come help me. I got a mouse." Oh, that just turned. He's holding the ball on this side. I reach over, snatch the ball, throw D. Lee down, take off. Like, don't ever fucking call me Mouse. Don't ever fucking do that. Are you crazy? Mark Jackson is pouring into that. Yeah. He telling me right away, as soon as I get drafted, I'm on the phone with him. I want you to come in here and I wanna see the same Draymond Green I saw at Michigan State. Leadership, blah, blah, blah.

But he's saying it and meaning it though.

Absolutely. So he instilled that in us. Like where we believe. So then Steve come in, Steve implements a great offense. Mark Jackson had our defense on point already. Steve comes in to take the offense to the next level.

So that's when the magic happened.

And not only does Steve take the offense to the next level, but Steve takes the winning ways to the next level because he's one of the ultimate winners in this league.

Yes, he is.

Like Steve Kerr, if you look at the NBA, Steve Kerr, Phil Jackson.

Pop. Pop.

Pat Riley.

Yeah, it starts getting very short after that.

When you look at, when you bunch that group of guys together, they account for like 40-something championships in NBA history, if not more. That group of guys. Steve Kerr is in that group.

He's in that group.

Of guys. He's, the ways, the things Steve Kerr has taught me about winning,— is insane. And so what Steve then brought was like that, the offense and the winning ways.

And think about what you just said. You said Steve Kerr, Phil Jackson, Pop, and Pat Riley. The other two he played for.

Absolutely.

So all the knowledge he got from those two, right? And they may not see it exactly the same. 'Cause I know Pop comes from the Larry Brown coaching tree, right?

Yep.

So it's like, The knowledge he's giving, I'm sure the details you're getting, the game you're getting is just, that's priceless.

Absolutely. And so that's where it changed. It really changed for us. Like Mark instilled it in us, but Steve took it to another level for us. Okay.

So that was— That makes all the sense in the world. Okay.

And which came at an interesting time because then that's also the time that we're running up against y'all. Lob City.

Yeah.

You coming off the bench, which leads me to my next topic, sixth man. So I feel like you're in a very interesting space right now where you're becoming more known for TV than you are for, like we talk Lou Will, Lou Will's great, what Lou Will did. Love it. But that started with you. And you're now becoming, you're not far removed from playing.

No.

But you're becoming more known for TV. Before we get into the TV thing, talk to me about your place in the 6-man GOAT conversation. How you like, you were kind of one of the first guys to really embrace that and make that a thing. Talk to me about that and like—

So, I've won since I was a kid. I won as a kid, I won in high school. I went to Michigan, only played 17 games, but we won 13 of 'em.

I wish y'all lost 13 of 'em.

Nah, nah, nah. The first one I missed was Michigan State.

Mm.

Mo Pete, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bill, that whole crew. And I remember, speaking of which, Dick Vitale's coming to, he came to Christ for the first time in years. 'Cause we wasn't doing much before that. That's the first game in NCAA. Here you go. First game NCAA tells me I can't play. And so it's an ESPN game, national crowd. And I'll never forget Michigan State won the game, but Mateen Cleaves came to me like, "Little bro, it's all good. Keep your head up." And that meant a lot to me 'cause here he is, he's a rockstar.

Mm-hmm.

He's already a rockstar. You know what I'm saying? But he came and showed love and I felt supported even though I didn't really know him like that at the time. I've always won. And in the NBA at this time, Dray is like, first off, there's positions. You playing a point, you playing a 2, you playing a 3.

Yes.

And also this thing like, oh, he's a good player, he's on bad teams. And I was tired of being known as that. And as fate would have it, I got traded as, this is, I'm gonna start my last year in Golden State. I leave and Steph comes the next year. 'Cause I play with Monta, I play with Jack.

Right.

Wow.

It was between the, it was a transition between the We Believe team with BD and I mean Monta at the Moped and then Steph coming. So it was that little gap right there.

Yeah.

And so I get traded to Atlanta and they already got their starting five. They got Josh Smith, Joe Johnson, Bibby, Al Horford, Marvin Williams.

Yep.

And coach, and Woody, I love Woody. Woody was like, you ain't gonna start here. I'm like, I ain't got no ego, I'm cool or whatever. I come off the bench, I'm the second leading scorer, average 18. I should have made All-Star that year. Let me speak to that real quick.

Yes, sir.

I hate that people ask people to sacrifice. They come off the bench. If I was starting doing the same thing, I would've made an All-Star team. I averaged 18. My team is, I think, second in the Eastern Conference when they selected at the time.

Yeah.

I should absolutely be an All-Star. But nah, he comes off the bench. So it's frowned upon to select me, but you give me all this praise for sacrifice. Like that don't add up. Something's not right with that. And then Lou Will, fast forward, he goes through it. He averages 20 with the Clippers. They won. He should have been an All-Star that year.

Yep.

One of the top fourth quarter scorers. But anyways, I go there, I do my thing. And what I didn't know at the time, I won a Sixth Man, was that it was changing the perspective of how the sixth man was looked at. Yep. Manu Ginobili was sixth man. Jason Terry was sixth man. They was appreciated. But I almost gave it swag and gave it a face.

Yes, sir.

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, okay, he's sixth man. He got game. If he can do it, oh, it ain't so bad. 'Cause you know, in our community, coming off the bench is frowned upon. Absolutely.

Period.

Absolutely. From childhood. Oh, you don't start? Oh, you weak. That's just how it goes.

Yeah.

But coming off the bench, doing what I did, doing it with swag and still winning games and doing that, it gave it a face. And now every gym, like you said, I'm in the AAU world. So every gym I'm in, kids like, "Six man, I wanna be a six man too." And that wasn't the case.

Mm-hmm.

So it's dope to see that. And one of the things that's most impressive, and I saw this stat, and I'm not flexing, I promise. I'm 4th all time in 4th quarter scoring. 4th. I'm the only person that's off the bench in that conversation. And it's crazy. I think the other 3 since they've been tracking is LeBron, Kobe, Dirk, myself.

Wow.

Off the bench. So I wear that with pride because it's like you got shit done and moved mountains even though you were coming off the bench. Mm-hmm.

That's interesting because Manu obviously was a sixth man for the majority of his career.

His career, right.

But it was looked at way differently to your point.

It was like, oh, he's a starter coming off the bench. He's sacrificing.

Absolutely. Like, oh, he just don't wanna start. So he comfortable coming off the bench. So it was never viewed as like him being a sixth man.

No.

It was actually viewed as you like being the sixth man.

Because it was like Manu could do all these things and I was more like a specialty, special teams type dude. So it was more myself, Lou, we're looked at as that. But to answer your question about the GOAT conversation, I would never say I'm the GOAT of that. I think I'm in the conversation. 'Cause I think everybody, Lou has an argument. Manu has an argument, he's a champion. Jason Terry, Harden came off the bench before. Lamar Odom. Like there's some dope sixth man. Ben Gordon was cold to win Rookie of the Year and Sixth Man the same year. So I give all them dudes their flowers. Kevin McHale, obviously, that left shrimp. But I think I'm in that conversation and however they see it, they see it. But I think you let others sing your praises. So I let other people say it. But to get that respect and get that love, you would never know I was a sixth man with all the love I get from people. Yeah.

Klay recently just came off the bench for the first time since his rookie year.

35 piece, shout out Klay.

Like since his rookie year. What would you say to Klay? Like should he embrace that and say, you know what, I'm gonna be the sixth man. Should he continue like, no, I'm still at this level, I wanna fight to be a star. What would your advice be to a Klay Thompson?

I actually reached out to Klay.

Wow, really?

I reach out to people all the time. I actually reached out to Klay before he came off the bench. And I'm like, 'cause we talked about it on TV and everybody's like trying to bury Klay. I'm like, "Dawg, he still averages 17 points." It's crazy. I said, "Klay is, the fight is with himself because he's been so legendary for so long." Right? Yep. 17 points on a great team is great. Klay's battle was that, and obviously the injuries and everything. But with him, I would tell him to embrace it. It can give him a whole nother wind. Like, we don't see legendary players like that. Manu, we talked about, but legendary, legendary guys like that who have had 4-time champions averaging 17, like, "I'm gonna come off the bench." Mm-hmm. Now you're seeing second unit guys. Now you're the focal point of the offense whenever, like, it gets you in the rhythm. Forget the off the bench or starting. You're gonna have better numbers doing this than you would as you're doing it right now.

Yeah.

With more of a focus. And you may have more fun. And that's why I told him in the message, like, bro, have fun.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, like, have fun, enjoy this shit. Because I'm here to tell you on the other side of it now, it don't last forever. You don't wanna look back with regrets. Like, man, the last few years I was mad at the— like, enjoy it 'cause it goes so fast. Like, and you've earned that. A lot of people haven't earned that right. You've earned that right. Like, Enjoy it, embrace it, and have fun.

And speaking on the other side, I mentioned earlier, you're becoming more known for TV personality and speaking about basketball, which I think is great. Like, because that just shows the success that you're having in doing what you're doing now. But it brings me to a conversation of, you're now on that side of things, but obviously you've done what you've done. But we live in this world today, and speaking to Klay, where certain people talk in this media space and it's like what they say is Bible. Like, oh, such and such said it, that's Bible now. Or he said this, or she said that, that's what it is. Let's talk about that.

Please, let's talk about it.

Go, you got it, go.

All right, my problem is, Basketball is one of the only sports or only things where you don't have to be a professional to judge professional and get people looking at it like you're the gospel.

Absolutely.

And it's crazy to me.

Absolutely.

Bro, I can't walk into Microsoft and tell Bill Gates, create this, or no, what you're doing is wrong, you're supposed to do— Think about how I'd be looked at.

Yeah.

If I walked into Microsoft and I'm telling Bill Gates how it should look and what should be done. And this is Bill Gates.

They look at you like you was outta your mind.

Like I'm on something.

Absolutely.

But we allow it. And that kills me. So I know exactly what you mean when you say new media, because it's crazy to me. Like there should be a certain credential that you have, not to speak on the game. I'm not saying that. Everybody's free to speak how they want. But to say it with your chest out like, "Yeah, and I said it, so you guys are gonna fall in line for this." Ain't that crazy?

It's insane.

And so that part kills me. That part kills me, bro. And that's why I think I have a responsibility to be in this space. And I've given so much of my life to the game, as you have, as like certain people have given their life. And for me, I'm not a hot take dude.

Yeah.

And what I'm saying, I don't mean, I may not say something that goes viral. I'm saying I'm always following the game.

Yes.

And I feel like the game will always lead me where I need to go. And I owe that to the game. The game's given me everything. Nobody would know who I was, period, if I didn't play the game, right? So I owe the game, I'll never cheat the game. And so my thing is always follow the ball, follow the game. And if I follow the game, I'll be able to say what I feel is right and what's wrong. And you could do it in a way that's not tearing people down. You just getting the point across and being real about it.

You know what's crazy is I always tell like football players, like I'm envious of you. Because they can only really watch and see, man, did such and such run for X amount of yards.

Right.

Did he throw for this amount of yards? What was his completion? How many passes did he complete? How many receptions did that guy have? How many yards? But it's so much going on on the football field that people actually shut the fuck up. Like they're not going to, They're not going to talk and analyze the game of football how they try to do the game of basketball because everybody and they mama think they know the game of basketball. But when it comes to football—

Why though?

I don't get it. And so I always tell people like, why do you think you should say that to me? And it's interesting because you get one or two reactions. Sometimes you get a reaction like, "Ah, my fault, bro." Like you—

Right, right, right.

But sometimes you actually get people that's like, "Nah, nah, because this and that." And I'm like, "Yo, do you realize I study this?" More than anything. Like daily, all day. You watch a game for 2 hours. I live this, breathe it, study this. That what makes you think in your right mind, you know this the way I do?

And they're watching it only from the lens that benefits them or whatever they want their narrative to be.

Absolutely.

Bro, we see the game from so many different levels. I can tell you from the star point of view, I can tell you from a bench player's point of view, I can tell you from just a teammate's point of view, I can tell you what the coach is thinking. I can tell you how the front office is trying to put it together. We see it from so many different angles and a totally different lens you can't even comprehend. So what makes you think you know more about this than me? And I'm not saying we can't have a great conversation about it, me and this person X, Y, and Z, but I'm just saying in general, what makes you think that you're like, no, no, what I said, this is it and this is going. And you may even bring up a good point within the conversation, but you don't know more, bro. You just don't. You ain't put enough time in.

Absolutely. And it's the bravado that comes with it. Right. Like some of these guys that gets to talk, I'm just sitting there looking at them like the nerve of you. The nerve of you. Like, how dare you?

How dare you?

Say that. The nerve of you. But if I come at you.

You're wrong.

I'm wrong. But who validates this?

Oh, you're a bully, right?

Right. Like, who validated this thing?

And now, especially with social media, right?

Mm-hmm.

Aha. That's like a whole, different thing because I'm sure some of these same people had the same thoughts, but now we hear 'em. We see 'em. And it's like, and now they're even louder because now they have a voice and we might respond to 'em. And sometimes at the end of the day, they didn't even care about what they were saying. They just wanted a response. They wanted your attention.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? So now you gotta decipher through that. It's just a whole different, it's a different era, different generation. But I feel like we need more basketball people in basketball. Absolutely. Talking the game in the front offices, coaching. Like, we need that more often. I feel like that's needed.

Absolutely.

The game will be in a better place because of it.

100%.

100%.

We spoke earlier about your involvement in the game, how you continue to give back. I saw the other day you were showing Wimby and a couple of young guys some moves. I don't think he pulled the move out in the game, You talked about having 10 new moves that people ain't seen.

They ain't never seen 'em. And they would've seen 'em if I made just one All-Star game. This is my plan, right? This is my ultimate plan. If I made one All-Star game, and you know, your first All-Star game, how many minutes you play?

11 maybe.

So that's what I'm thinking. If I make it, I may play 7.

Yeah.

But it was gonna be 7 minutes of funk. Every single time down the court, I was gonna do a new move. Every time I touched the ball, I was gonna do a new move. So how T-Mac had that moment where he threw off the glass and everybody talked about it, I was gonna release one of those moves every single— I'm like, I'm never coming back here again. Why not? Shit, why not, right?

For sure.

They gonna remember me. And that was my plan. And so I never made it. And so now it's like, they in the vault, bro. They just sitting there. And I'm not passing to JJ yet because he's young. He's gonna do it at some point. It'll take him a while to learn it, but he would do it. And I want him to do it when he's really there and he's ready for it. So that he won't see him either. Nobody's seen him. Even the Wimby moves, like that was just, we had him on and I asked him if he could do the shake. He was like, "Yeah, I learned that when I learned the Sham God." And I said, "Yo, if you do it in the game with who you are and you know what, I'm gonna just give you the full version of that move. You can have it." And nobody's seen it. 'Cause it happened, I've only done it once. Mm-hmm. And it's when I first did the move. When I first did that move, I was 16 playing a pro-am and I did the full version of it. And the guy, I was going, let's say I'm going that way. The guy went all the way to the left. Mm-hmm. And I laid, I was going so fast, I had to catch myself on the wall. But that version I would give to Wimby. And I promise you it would shut everything down. And if he does it, nigga, he's been practicing. I saw him practicing the layup line in Miami. Somebody in, again, social media sent me a video. And I saw it, I said, "Oh, if he does it, I'm gonna show it to him." But I wasn't doing it that day 'cause one, he didn't do it. And two, all the players start watching too. I'm like, "Well damn, if I get in the move now, everybody's gonna do the same thing." So I was just freestyling with him.

Tell me this, so I watch Wemby. I haven't got an opportunity to play against him yet, but I watch him. And he's a special talent, but I think it's gonna be important for him to figure out what it is that, like, he almost can do too much. And it could possibly get in the way of his teammates because he start to float and you don't necessarily know where your place is on the court.

Right, right.

You know, like, ah, now he up there. And like great scorers are gonna move around, but most great scorers, you know, like, you know where they getting it at. Wimby sometimes can get it here, get it there, get it all over the place. And I feel like as he move forward, it could possibly, interrupt the flow of his teammates if he don't learn how to channel. What's your take on like his next level of growth and becoming who he can be in the league?

Before he came in the league, I said, and I said, obviously he has a cheat code in Pop, right? But I said his skill, whatever he does best early, we don't know, but it'll be highlighted, right? So Pop's gonna play him to his strength, whether that's pick and roll, whether that's setting the pick, whether it's catching on a certain block, whether it's getting in transition, whether it's trail threes, whatever it is, they're gonna highlight that. The cheat code is Pop though, because I don't think Wemby's best attribute is scoring.

Yes.

I'm not sure what it is right now, but I called the game when they played the Hawks probably a month ago. And Draymond was crazy because he does stuff you're not supposed to do. What I mean by that is he may do something in space and like, oh, that should be a floater.

Yeah.

Like anybody else, that would be like, oh, he got to a spot, that's a floater. He's getting to that spot and he's reaching around dunking. You like, what? Like that don't even add up, bro. We ain't seen that. And then that game in particular, this is what I love about him. Pop brings him off the bench the second half.

Really?

Brings him off the bench the second. He starts the game, obviously. He didn't like the energy that group had. Brings him off the bench. And he came in in that second half and he scored 23 points. But it wasn't that, he's blocking everything. And this is what you'll love about him. "He's a little thing. As good as the talent he is, he's a little things dude." That's the game changer. So he's better than the hype. Not 'cause the shit you can see, it's the shit you can't see. He's a little things dude. Every single time he's sprinting, try to block shot. Every single time he's running. Every single time he's in the right area on help. Every single time he makes the right play. He's a little things dude. And this what really got me. After the game, I'm walking out. Draymond Green. He's in the weight room. He puts his, he sees me, he drops the weights, he comes down, he shakes my hand. He shakes my hand, he doesn't even say nothing. He just puts his head down. Like he wanted some wisdom or knowledge. I said, "Oh, he's gonna be great." Because he wants to keep learning, the drive to keep getting better. But the little things he does besides the big things you see is why he's gonna be outta here. He's actually better than the hype. It's scary.

Yeah. That's insane. Like I said, I haven't got an opportunity to play against him, but I actually think, to your point, I think his best attribute is his defense.

Yes.

He can control a game defensively right now better than he can offensively.

Yep.

And he's already pretty amazing offensively, what he can do.

In the Rising Stars game, he literally locked down the whole key. And I said it, I said, "To win this game, you're gonna have to get a mid-range shot 'cause you can't go in there and you can't pull up a 3." And my guy, I don't wanna mess up his name.

Bozelis.

Went to a mid-range and I told Bozelis after the game, I said, "I'm glad somebody did because you weren't going in the key." Even the shots he doesn't block, he alters. You're thinking about him. "Oh, I can get this one off." He goes and gets one. You're like, "Damn, I ain't seen that." Like he's, we use the word different so much, but he actually is different. I think what he is for real, I think he was a guard that he just stretched all the way out. So he sees the game like a guard.

Yes.

He's not like a big trying to dribble. He sees the game like a guard. Oh, boom, boom. That shit went right there already. Shoot it. Like, he's like, I'm like, damn. He's a different breed. I seen it in person. It's crazy.

That's exciting.

The little things is what separates him though.

So if you starting a franchise today. Yeah. —All the guys in the league, you starting it with Wimby?

Is my franchise trying to go for it the next 3 years? Are we trying to go the next—

No, no, no. Let's say you starting a franchise and you know, you're the owner of the franchise. So you, could be tough going all in in the first 3 years. You know, like you try to go all in the first 3 years, it can possibly set you back another 5, 6 years.

That's what I'm saying.

Going for it in 3 years. So just say you starting it in, The runway is the runway.

Oh yeah, for sure. There's no doubt. If it was 3 years, then it's like a Joker, right? Or it's like Embiid. But if it's like 7 years or 5 to 7, yeah, it's him for sure. Now it's just about who's gonna play with him. And to your point, okay, what does he do best where we can, we know what to put around him.

Yes.

You know what I'm saying? So that part of it, but if it's that, it's without a doubt, he's the one I'm starting with.

Joker, Embiid, who you rolling with? And why?

Embiid's more dominant in that regard. And he should have won MVP if he doesn't get hurt. But I think Joker, when you just factor in health, I think he's— and health's nobody's fault, but I'm just saying his style of play, he doesn't use athleticism. I have to go with Joker. Joker's playing the game backwards. What I mean is my man averages 30 points and he doesn't wanna score.

That's fact. That's a fact.

Brother, I don't wanna score. Here, here, here. And he still gets 30. Then he can still play big boy basketball as well. But the way he flows and the way he plays, and he's like, he plays a lot. Like he's not missing games. And it's not nobody's fault. Like I said, I had injuries, I missed a year before, but I have to go a joker.

And you just spoke on health, which brings me to probably the hottest topic in the NBA right now. The 65-game rule.

I don't like it, Dray. I don't like it. I love the fact that we want everybody to play. Shit, I was in year 17, I played all 82.

That's crazy.

So I love the fact of playing. I was, man, for years I've been saying, Before load management, load management when dudes were still practicing. Load management practice. Yes. 'Cause these kids, load management practice so these kids can see everybody playing. Absolutely. And it's good for the league, it's good for the kids, it's good for the game. So I'm all for, this is not a load management answer, but if you're injured or you feel you're injured or you're compensating something and you're like, I have to play just to meet a quota to be eligible for an award. Then that's the part I have a problem with. 'Cause you know what, at the end of the day, the people that are voting, they still don't have to vote for that person. Absolutely. So we're gonna save them from themselves?

Absolutely.

Oh, he plays, if this rule was never in effect, he plays 63 games, he had a great 63, I have to vote. No, you don't.

Yeah.

That's your choice. So I have a, I think somehow, I'm not saying the intent was wrong with getting guys to play, 'cause guys should play. Let me be very clear about that. But if they're injured and they can get injured worse, trying to be out there to meet a quota. That's the part I have a problem with.

Like we've actually seen two guys that happened to already this year. Joel, he's actually playing against us when he just hurt his knee.

Yeah.

I mean, I had already heard that the knee was not doing in a good space. Not right, right. And they told us like, if it wasn't the game thing, he wouldn't play tonight. Then he played, hurts the knee. We've also seen, and we're here, Hinkle Fieldhouse, Indianapolis. We've also seen it with Tyrese Halliburton.

Yeah.

Tyrese came back from the hamstring.

He's on a mini restriction right now.

A little too soon.

Yes.

He's now been back for 3 weeks and he's still on a mini restriction.

Still on a mini restriction.

But he's forcing it to get back. Why? All-NBA. 'Cause if I'm not mistaken, All-NBA actually affects his contract, I think.

Yes, it does. I think like maybe $41 million.

Absolutely.

$53 million. $53 million.

So he's forcing it to get back for that. But if say he missed 3 more games before pushing it to come back, right? I don't think you're looking at that at the end of the year like, he missed those 3 more games, he not All-NBA.

No, you're not. You're not. So we're trying to save the voters from themselves. 'Cause we're not technically putting it in a place where the guys are gonna play more. He may miss more time if he gets hurt. Absolutely.

And people don't know. Like Joel Embiid.

Yes, exactly. We don't even know when he's coming back, right? And that's not good for the game because here he is having an MVP season. He's not playing the All-Star Game. His team is hurting. His team is, their second, third, fourth, and fifth player can be the best they can be and it won't matter if Joel Embiid is not there.

Absolutely.

So that part, I understand what they were doing, like I said, to get people to play. We want that. As fans who watch the game and talked about the game, we want that.

Absolutely.

So we're not saying that. But also on the other side of that, we can't have guys risking their health if they're injured, trying to further play and injure themselves more.

It's the unintended consequence.

Right.

That's the problem.

Right.

You know, you getting these guys who really hurt and it wasn't necessarily intended for them. But they're catching the consequence for it.

For sure.

So what's the right thing?

Okay, if maybe it's, maybe it's not, I think it shouldn't be attached to their money. I'm not a component of he has to play this many games to get eligible or All-NBA to get eligible. I mean, that's a bonus, obviously. I'm not sure what the right thing is. I'm sure they've had these conversations. They've had to, right? You made All-NBA?

I have before, a couple times.

A couple times.

So, nah.

What's your take on it?

My take on it is, I think the 65-game rule is pathetic. I think, I totally understand wanting to get guys on the floor.

Yes.

And have it, but like this the NBA. We know when somebody really hurt and when you actually like low managing.

Right.

So my thing is do the work. Like really do the work and know who's actually low managing. Because they keep all these notes.

For sure.

Like every time I go in the training room.

Oh, everything's tracked now.

It's tracked.

Yeah.

So you know the truth.

Right.

Like, you know if I'm in there L'ing every day with this knee, And all of a sudden, 2 weeks later, it's just gotten to a place to where I probably can't go tonight. You know.

You know.

'Cause you've seen, oh my Lord, that I've been in that training room for this writing.

Every day.

Every day for the last 2 weeks.

Before and after practice, every day.

I have to be in there or else it's just not in a good space, right? So my thing is do the work. Don't punish Joel Embiid. Because say this, say if Joel was hurting at that time and then he missed 7 games instead of the 2 that he missed, he missed 7. And then he comes back healthy and on the same tear that he was on, can he still win MVP? Can he still make an impression on voters whose the last impression in their mind was how he was dominating, then he missed 7 games and then he come back and pick, right back up there. Can he still win MVP? If he can, in the voter's mind, then let it be.

Let it be. What if a person runs in, player X runs into player Y's knee or ankle, step, whatever, and he misses 10 games because of it? How are we penalizing him for missing 10 games? And that part, that's the part that needs to be tweaked. And now he's not eligible 'cause he may miss, 4 more and then 2 more. And now he's not eligible for, or 3 more, whatever. And he's not eligible to be for those awards. You don't have to vote for him, but he shouldn't be penalized.

Yes.

If he has real injuries to deal with. That's my thing on it.

I agree. You sit on the side of media now. I sit on both sides currently.

Yes.

But, and also understanding that media makes decisions that does, that can decide whether Tyrese Halliburton makes $53 million. Is there a better system that we can come up with than time? Because here's the thing, Maul. I may not like a reporter and that reporter may not like me for whatever reason. Maybe I didn't give 'em an interview when they wanted an interview. Right. You've been there, right? Maybe they said something that I didn't like and I said something back to them. Draymond Green. And they didn't like that. And so then they don't vote. Should we still be in a space where our money is decided—

By their emotions.

Because they're human beings. Like, you can't tell me they're not biased.

They're human beings. Right, right. No. Hell no. Are you serious? No, no way. There's no way because they're gonna always feel personal about that. Oh, you didn't speak to me. Or I said something and I didn't like how you responded in front of people. Now I'm a little embarrassed or whatever it might be. No. And that's why that part of it is why we love that you're in media. We love that players are in media because you guys are in it, like truly in it. You're in the locker rooms. Like, I hate when, "Oh, a source said this." Put a name to it.

Mm-hmm.

I used to, back in the day, Dray, is I would see something somebody said, they would have to wait. 'Cause you gotta think, this is just papers, just newspapers. So something comes out, the next day it comes out. By the time you address it, the next day it finally hits the paper. So that's a 2 to 3 day span.

Absolutely.

So I love that players are taking the power of their own. You can end it in 2 seconds. Literally, you can have your own press conference for millions of people in 2 seconds to get things right and straighten things out. And I love that part of it.

Before we get outta here, who you got winning it this year?

I think, to be honest with you, I think the West, Denver's always there. I think Phoenix is built for the playoffs.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't think they're done. I think they're gonna get a guard who can kind of organize and kind of, I think they are missing that. And I think they're missing a backup big. And I think the Clippers are rolling at the right time.

They are.

I saw your eyes jump up when I said the Clippers.

They are.

Take yourself out of it. Now I need you on the media side. You ain't the player side right now. I need you on the media side. Are the Clippers the one team that you look at like, okay, they can really go do this if they stay healthy?

For sure, because they have everything. They have a Hall of Fame point guard.

Yes.

They have a Hall of Fame shooting guard.

Yeah.

They have a Hall of Fame small forward.

Yes.

They have a Hall of Fame point guard on the bench.

Yes. Oh my goodness.

Now—

And maybe a Hall of Fame coach. Absolutely.

Yes. Now aside from that, they got bigs in Zubats and who's kind of more of a bruiser. And then you got Plumlee, who's kind of a little bit of a bruiser, but also fast and athletic and can keep up like on the perimeter and like, can pressure a big that can't necessarily handle the ball and get back to the rim and defend the rim. They got Norman Powell off the bench who's scoring the basketball at a very high clip. They got role players. I think they have a lot. Now, health is obviously for anybody.

Yeah, that's for anybody.

Everybody has to be healthy. But I think they have anything that you need to compete for a championship. And like you said, it's coming together at the right time. But also aside from them having everything that you need, they got guys that need a championship. James Harden need a championship. Paul George need a championship. Russell Westbrook need a championship. So they starving.

Yeah. They hungry.

And guess what? All those guys I just named are closer to the end than they are the beginning.

Right, so they know that.

Way closer to the end than they are the beginning. So they know—

This is it.

This is probably my best chance and last chance.

Right, it's the Michael Jackson tour.

If I don't do it now, it don't happen.

It don't happen.

You know? And so I think, and then now you put all that into account. And you got Ty Lue orchestrating it. And Ty Lue know what to do.

He know what to do.

In those situations.

He don't panic.

Not at all. You know, we not gonna go there, Ty Lue. You know the love I got for you. This man brought us back, brought 3-1. I don't wanna talk about it. But Ty Lue—

I'm surprised you giving love to the Clippers. 'Cause you know, we came a long way with that Warriors-Clippers thing.

Absolutely. But you know, we smacked them up enough to where I can get that love and, you know, be all right with it. I got two questions for you.

Talk to me. You remember when word got to us when all that happened, that if we walked out and didn't play, you guys was on board. Is that real? Were you guys really not gonna play if we didn't play?

100%. This is when Donald Sterling.

Yes.

The recording came out with Donald Sterling. The game that night, if you go back and look, the game was us versus y'all. This was Adam Silver's first big decision he had to make.

Shouts to Adam Silver. Yes, it was.

Who's been the best commissioner.

By far.

Probably in the history of sports. But this was his first big decision that he had to make as the commissioner of the NBA. And it was Donald Sterling with the Magic Johnson thing, the recordings coming out, the racist recording. And we had a game to play that night. And Steph was talking to Chris. D. Lee was talking to somebody else on y'all team. Andre talking to CP as well. And we were talking about what are we doing if the announcement essentially doesn't, or if we don't approve. And it was, well, we're gonna go out there on the court, like we're lining up for the jump ball and we walking off.

What effect do you think it would've had had we done that?

I think it changes—

Now with how things are and how the world is.

I think it changes the landscape of the NBA. I think it changes the landscape of how athletes view themselves in this whole— athletes' place, how athletes view their place in this whole business. Because as time has gone on, we've figured out more of our place. But we still don't have a stake in it. And I think with that move, if we had made that move, I think we have stake in it right now.

So that's a move that could have outlived all of us. 100%.

It would've been on CNN. It would've been everywhere. Everywhere. It would've been everywhere. And what it shows you most importantly is, all right, guess what? "Go play." Go play. The game don't go on. It's over. We're done. We're not playing. We're walking off. The game doesn't go on.

On one of the biggest stages at the time, right?

Us versus y'all.

Playoff stage.

Playoffs. Beef.

Right. Everybody's watching that series.

It's over.

You're a Warrior. Give me 4 other Warriors. I know we about to get outta there. Give me 4 other Warriors you go to Warrior. They can't be on your team. Just in the league from your perspective.

Can be on my team.

In a foxhole.

Okay.

Warriors. Like you got it. We going to play in the roughest, toughest, whatever in the world. I need 4 Warriors to go with me. No pun intended. Not Warrior Warriors.

I'm taking, cannot be on my team.

No. They can't be on the Golden State Warriors, but 4 that are built like you to go somewhere.

I'm taking Bron.

Okay.

I am taking Ja Morant. He ain't backing down from nobody.

That's a great call. Okay.

What Ja say, I'm running up the chip. I'm running up the chip. And he running up that motherfucker. I'm taking Ja. I'm taking Bron. I am taking, uh.

Hmm, that's interesting.

That's interesting. I'm taking, 'cause see, here's the thing, they with me, I can bring the dog. So I just need guys who got the dog. Like, as long as you got it enough for us to stand on, I'll bring it. You'll bring it. So Jah, So I need you to be nice.

But we need the dog too though.

But that's what I'm saying. So these are guys who are— That are dog, oh, absolutely dogs, but they nice. But like they nice. So what takes the cake is how good they are.

Right.

So I need those guys.

Okay, all right.

I'll do the other shit.

I can't wait to hear these last two.

So I'm taking those two. I'm taking, I'm taking Joker.

You taking Joker?

Man, y'all, they be talking about—

That may be the most shocking thing I heard today.

Man, that dude an animal.

He is an animal. Oh, you ain't gotta tell me. I just told you how great he was.

He an animal though. Like, he don't talk.

No.

He don't flaunt it. You ain't moving him off his spot.

Nah, hell nah.

You're not rattling him with nothing.

No, nothing.

Nothing's rattling. Nothing. He an animal. I'm taking him. He nice.

Oh, he's, he an all-timer already.

I'm taking Joker.

You got one more.

And my last one I'm taking is, uh, Shea Gildress Alexander. Ooh-wee!

He talked to JJ yesterday. And it wasn't the, and I'm saying that to say this, it wasn't the, "Oh, what's up?" It was like the talk you had with him in the Bay, in the Finals. It was a real talk. And to hear him, I said, "He's a dog." He a dog. He's a real dog. He ain't no fake dog. Like, he's a dog.

Absolutely.

And so his mindset was impressive to hear. So it's you, Ja, SGA, Bron, and Joker. And them 5 dogs can go anywhere.

Anywhere.

And get it done.

We going to Serbia, we climbing the tree. Anywhere.

That's what I'm saying.

Anywhere. We going anywhere.

That's real.

And we got obviously the talent.

Yeah. Oh yeah.

But each one of those guys that I named, stand on business. May do it quietly, may do it—

Yeah, some are loud, some are quiet, but they gonna do it.

But they stand on business and I respect that. And you talking guys like, these are all guys, by the way, that carried load. They stand on business though.

Yes, they do.

And they dogs. And I got nothing but respect and love for those guys. So like the common answer would be like Pat Bev, you know what I mean?

Right, right, right.

I'll bring that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'll bring that. Like, myself, I'll bring that. So give me somebody who a dog, but they can go do all that other shit that I can't go do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And them the guys.

Do you see anybody else that can be, who can be the next, not to a T, not perfectly molded, who can be the next, generation of you? Tyrese. In the league right now. That's my, yeah, my way.

Tyrese.

And you said that quick. You thought about this.

Yeah, he, I love that kid, man. He, and I don't know what's happening right now in Houston. I haven't seen them play a ton, but I haven't heard a ton about him. So I don't know if he's playing a lot this year. You know, it can be tough with coaching changes and different stuff. Directions of organizations, all of a sudden they was getting smacked. Last year, wiped, like mopped across the court. And then now you bring in Ime, you bring in Fred, you bring in Dylan Brooks, you bring in guys, Jeff Green.

Winners.

You're trying to change it. And sometimes young guys can get lost in that.

For sure.

And so I'm not sure if he's gotten lost in it or not. Like I said, I haven't seen him play a ton, but from what I've seen from him, he can dribble the ball. He can shoot it okay. But you can, you can like, you can better a jump shot. Crazy motor. Yeah. You can better a jump shot.

Yeah, he can work on that.

So he can dribble the ball. He's a good athlete. He's not crazy freak athlete, but he's a good athlete. Great length, great size, rebound the ball. Ain't like, not soft at all. Like ain't backing down from nothing. Like does the little things. I say Tari Eason. Now you gotta get in the right situation.

All that, but he's smart.

But I love his game. I love what he bring to a team. And I think he got a chance to be like that next guy. If he embrace it though, you know, because a lot of these young guys wouldn't want to embrace being me, you know, like it's not sexy.

But it's so important. Very rarely, and I studied the game for a long time, very rarely have I seen two teammates that were connected and leaned on each other like you and Steph.

Facts.

And it's amazing. When I watch, I just, I laugh. I'm like, this is, 'cause when I was in competition, I didn't see it. But now I'm like, this is beautiful to watch because you guys are switching roles within the game. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's crazy to see. And that's the Chinese riddle. That's the one that nobody can figure out. It's so funny you say that.

It's funny you say that because CP, and being with us now, he come up to me and he's like, "Yo, you and Steph should switch positions now. Like you take the ball and him run into Draymond." I'm telling you. Like literally.

I'm watching it. And me and C haven't even talked about that, but I can see it. It's crazy to see, but it's beautiful. And you guys will go down just as the connection of two players and their success. I mean, obviously you have the, The Jordans, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, all the— But you guys will go down up there with duos that are just as connected and lean on each other just as beautifully.

I appreciate that, bro.

Nah, no doubt. No doubt.

My man, Maw, thank you.

Always, bro. Anytime. You already know.

Man, always a pleasure. I could talk basketball with you all day. It's a vibe. Thank you, my brother.

It's a vibe, bro.

Absolutely.

For sure.

One of the GOATs. It's a wrap.

Appreciate y'all.

Peace.