Kenny Smith shares legendary stories about Jordan, Hakeem, & 'Inside the NBA' | Draymond Green Show

What's up everybody? It's Draymond Green. Make sure you subscribe to The Volume's YouTube channel below so you don't miss any more of this great content going forward. What's up everybody? Welcome back to The Draymond Green Show. This next guest I'm honored to have, a guy who I'm actually able to call a teammate now, but 2-time world champion, hailing from Queens, New York, or grew up in Queens, New York, New York City point guard, which we gonna talk something about New York City point guards in this interview, but I'm honored to have him. Kenny "The Jet" Smith, my brother.

Thank you for joining the show. I'm happy to be here, brother. I'm happy to be here.

Absolutely, man. Looking forward to it. I mean, let's get right into it. I mean, just speaking on growing up in New York, what did that do for you in your basketball career, but also just in life? Like I think, you know, we grow up in the environments that we grow up in and they shape who you are as a person. What did growing up in New York City do for you?

Well, you know, definitely, Dray, it's different era now. But what, you know, in terms of, from a personal standpoint, your antennas of life are up quicker. So you're able to read situations by people's body language, by body movements, because there's such good people in New York and there's such bad people in New York. And so you have to be able to really, at an early age, figure out who is whom. And for me, that was, that helped me as a person. It helped me stay focused because my dad could always point, or my mom could always point to say, "Oh, do you wanna be like him? Or do you wanna be like him? Or do you wanna be like him?" Like the people that they were talking about,— it's such a melting pot of people, Draymond Green, that everyone's right in your neighborhood. Like, the guy 5 blocks from you makes $1 million, and the guy 5 blocks back from you doesn't make a dollar.

And—

Absolutely. You have all these melting pots of cultures mixed in. The craziest thing, though, was food. You know, we ain't even— like, when I went to the University of North Carolina, right? I was at breakfast the first time we go to this team breakfast. I said, "Let me have some bagels and lox." And they were like, "What are you talking about? Bagels and lox?" I did not know that bagels and lox was a Jewish food because I just grew around, I didn't really know pizza was ethnic. It was like Italian. I did know Jamaican food had Jamaican, but I did not know, like it was just, "Oh, that's $1.50, that's $2." I never associated with ethnic groups. So like things like that growing up in New York, you have a, like, to me, I had a good spread of wealth of like just being a rounded person.

That's a very interesting thing. I'll tell you something funny about me growing up in Saginaw, Michigan. I didn't, and Jewish is a religion, but it's also,— it acts almost as a race. Like it is a religion, but it acts almost as a race.

I know what you mean.

I actually didn't know growing up in Saginaw, like that there were Jewish people. Like I just thought there were white people and like Black people. Like growing up in Saginaw, I never knew that was a thing till I got to college. And so you could see the drastic difference in like, Growing up in a place like New York City, tough as nails, but bigger, more diverse. You're kind of exposed to everything. Me growing up in Saginaw, in a place that's tough in a totally different way than New York City. Yet I did not know anything.

Yeah, I'll tell you what, Draymond Green, like even, 'cause the crazy part, like you see all of the mafia stories. There are so many of their kids that were on my basketball teams.— that I didn't know that that's what their dads did. And I was like, I just would not— I had no clue. Because Queens, for some reason, was a nesting ground for those guys in those eras. So all of their— they sent all their kids to Catholic school, private schools. I went to a Catholic high school. And people would be like, oh, don't mess with Billy. I'm like, why not? Like, no, just don't mess with Billy. Oh, don't mess with— and then by my senior year, I understood who their dads were and what what they were doing because I started seeing them on the front page of New York papers. I was like, oh, this is who Billy's dad is.

That's crazy.

Yes. So that was just like a normal thing. I was running through the city because of that. 'Cause you think about this, like most of us, we grew up in the hood. Like all the guys in our neighborhood who were doing bad or doing dirt, so to speak, they like, okay, Dray, we about to do something, get out the way. "we know that you have a future in basketball," right? Or you have a future to go to college. I had the same thing. But then you compile that with, I had the mafia families, the Jewish families that were in positive or negative. So everyone collectively in New York City was looking out for me. I could walk through New York City and skate through the city and I never felt threatened at all because of that. That's what basketball did for me.

Do you still feel like that today when you walk through New York City?

Oh, without question. Like New York, I joke around, I'm like, my name is not Kenny, it's Ken-N-Y. So like, I'm like, I could walk around because literally the, I told you we had those guys at our school.

Absolutely.

The head of the police chief came from my high school. —of New York City. Oh, wow. So I had the chief, police chief, who becomes the ultimate police chief, the guys who were doing all the dirt. I live in a neighborhood that's got all of the different things. We're '80s, '90s babies, so we crack babies and all of that kind of, you know, people around us. So we got that going. So every single— and then most of the guys from my high school worked on Wall Street. As well. So when I go, so you got Wall Street, you got drugs, you got money, you got every element. And there's nowhere in New York City I don't know anyone. It's impossible for me to walk anywhere and not know anyone.

That's impressive, man. That's impressive.

That's just crazy. It was fun. It actually was fun. It was fun growing up in New York for me. Even though it was danger, but it was fun. It was fun.

And speaking of New York City and growing up there, St. John's is there. You chose to go play at North Carolina for Dean Smith. Why North Carolina over St. John's?

Nah, I would never play for St. John's. Only because my high school, I had to take the bus by St. John's. So I was like, I'm not getting on the same bus to go to college. Like, I was like, I am not. There was no way I could fathom having a bus pass to go to college. I just couldn't. I was like, there's no way. And Lou Carnesecca, who was there at the time, like he is a New York icon. Like he still treated me like I was a New York, like I was one of St. John's guy when he saw me. He'd see me, "Hey Kenny, how you doing? Hey, we got some sneakers. Give Kenny some sneakers if he wanna rock." And he just knew I wasn't ever gonna transfer from North Carolina to St. John's. But he just, when he was there, epitome of the New York basketball grandfather. And St. John's was our— I went to Malloy High School, which was the subsidiary of St. John's. So St. John's was the same diocese of priests that went there to my Catholic school. So like people taught at St. John's taught at my high school or vice versa. So we had a real close connection with St. John's University. But I was never gonna take a bus to that school, bro. Never.

No chance. Never.

No, no chance. I wanted to see what that looked like. You know the movies with the frat houses? You know what Michigan State look like.

Absolutely.

You know what it is. I wanted all that. I wanted all that.

The proper college experience. I always say, I'm not sure I would want, I would have wanted to go to school in New York or go to school in LA, like college in LA. Because the experience that I had at Michigan State in East Lansing, Michigan, You can't get that experience as a college player in New York. You can't get that experience as a college player in LA. And that's always been my thing is like, even if you do great in LA, UCLA can do great. UCLA has done great. USC can do great. They've done— the Lakers are still there.

Yeah.

Like the New York Knicks are still in New York City. If you win a championship the same year that the New York Knicks win a championship, they may not even have a parade for you.

Yeah.

Like, that's how drastic of a difference.

Well, one thing that they sell for St. John's, you know, 'cause I know Mark Jackson's my guy, that's my guy. Chris Mullins my guy.

Absolutely.

And I know they gonna be like, oh, he's killing St. They, what they sell is New York is your campus. They say your campus is New York City. And that's how they sell to people who aren't there. They're like, "Your campus is New York City." And for me, I was like, "I lived there my whole life. It's always been my campus. I'm gone. I'm out. I'm gone. It's been my campus my whole life.

I don't need it no more." The restaurants in New York City, they still cost the same if you go to St. John's, right?

No. I'm meaning this way. Because you're on the front page back then, before social media, you're on the front page of the newspaper, back page of the newspaper. You not paying for nothing if you go to St. John's and you're Walter Berry, you're Mark Jackson, and you're Chris Mullin. You're not paying for nothing in New York City.

Yeah, but it's— There's everybody, that's 3 guys.

Yeah, I mean, but no, I'm talking about the whole St. John's team. Those guys had, they did have some really great privileges to be in St. John's. I would say that. I would say they had some good privileges.

Okay, well that works then because if I'm a college student, And nowadays NIL is different and we'll talk a little bit about that. But if I'm a college student in New York City and I'm not getting those privileges, then you're essentially like living a life of a peasant because we don't have any money.

Yeah, you're broke.

In college.

And even, you know what else, Dray? Dray, like what you always want is you wanna feel appreciated. Even more than getting a dollar or NIL deal. It's like you walk on campus, and things stop because of what you're doing and how much work you're putting in on the campus and how much notoriety you bring it to the school. If you don't have that, it is a, it's a bad feeling. And I would never want that feeling. That's why, you know, I went to North Carolina and I'm walking around with Sam Perkins and Michael Jordan and I'm walking around and I'm seeing what these guys and how they being entertained just by just their presence. I was like—

Mm-hmm.

Like, hey, Dre, when we used to go, Duke was our rival, or that school in Durham. So North Carolina Central sits in the middle, HBCU.

Absolutely.

So if you want to get your hair cut, you going to North Carolina Central. They got the best barbers, they got their whole student union. So this would show that we were better than them at this time. When we came in there, Dre, they would shut down the barbershop and no one could come in the shop. And I never forget this. Johnny Dawkins comes in trying to get a haircut, and he's a Duke player at the time who's now a basketball coach in college basketball. And they wouldn't let him in. Jordan was like, "If you open that door, we will never come back to get a haircut." And they didn't let him in.

I was like, "Yes, we rocked this thing!" Oh, that had to hurt. That had to hurt. They didn't let him in. They didn't let him in.

'Cause they used to shut it down for them or for us. So, but when we were in there first, they was like, "Nah, we in here. Don't open that door for them." So all the kids in North Carolina Central, they would come and just look at us getting haircuts. We were like, 'cause there was no NBA teams, we were rock stars. It was rock star status in North Carolina. Probably like East Lansing. It's gotta be.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's rock star status.

That's incredible. And speaking of Michael Jordan, I wanna roll into your North Carolina days. You go to North Carolina, Dean Smith's the coach, the legend Dean Smith, RIP. What was it like going to play for a coach like Dean Smith? And at that time, like, so now we all look at Dean Smith like the legend. At that time, did it have that same feel of going to play for a legend as it has now? Like we look at him as the legend, or was he just kind of still going through making him, making his name?

No, he was a legend for sure. Me being a New Yorker, I was a pro basketball fan before I was a college basketball fan. So I knew, but I didn't know until I got there. And there's so many things, which is interesting, Dray, like I just finished writing a book and it's called—

Oh wow, congratulations.

Yeah, it's called Talk of Champions. And what it is, it's a tell-all book about everything I learned great from people.

Oh wow, okay.

Only the— so, and each chapter is named after a specific person and everything I learned great from them. And I wish I could— and I'm bestowing that onto my kids and the world so that you can have it early and get it all together. But if I knew it all at one time, man, it'd be crazy. So with Dean Smith, the most unique thing, there's a lot of great things about him, but one of the most unique things that he could have done to recruit me and got me to sign instantly. I got down there. I had no idea. I knew who Charlie Scott was because he played in the NBA. He was an NBA All-Star at the time. But I didn't know he was the first African American player in the ACC.

The first?

And I didn't know— the first. And he played for North Carolina, and Dean Smith, recruited him and said he's the first— if you walk into any African-American home and say, I recruited the first African-American basketball player to ever play at the University of North Carolina or the ACC, everyone would go, oh, I'm coming to your school. There's not even— I'm not even— there's no debate. And I asked him, I said, why didn't you ever tell me that? And he said, I didn't recruit. African American Charlie Scott. I recruited Charlie Scott.

Wow.

And from then, he said, the second thing he says, now that you're here, this was when apartheid was going on with all of the things in Africa. We had the shanties on the campus, and there was protests about Mandela. And he goes, now, the second thing, now as an African American student, what are you going to do that is not related to basketball with this. I didn't even know what apartheid was at that time. I'm coming outta high school, not really into politically smart, you know what I mean? And that was the first two things he said to me. I was like, that's a different individual without question. So yes.

Absolutely.

It was, for me, it was an out-of-body experience. It was like playing for Mandela, playing for Mother Teresa, playing for, Martin Luther King. Like, it was like his knowledge and awareness of self was— I had never experienced anything like that. And especially from someone who was non-African American. That was the first time that I ever had a white man that ever asked me, what are you going to do for Black people? Like, I had— that's the first white person that ever asked me that question.

What did you then do?

I found, I did research. I was like, damn, I don't even know what apartheid really is. I just read about it on the headlines. So I researched it. Then they had the shanties on campus. So we, I helped build some of the shanties on campus. You know, like I just did small things, gave some time here and there, but I wasn't aware. He just made me aware of something that I probably would've, as the athlete, could've skated by because, you know, 'cause at this time it wasn't like it is today. You know, Muhammad Ali was the only one that people asked about, you know, what was going on other than his sport. And so for me, for him to say that, and it challenged me as an African American young man. And I don't even think I had a Black coach that ever challenged me like that.

That's interesting. That's very interesting. You go on, and by the way, you said I gave a little bit of time. For those listening to this, I don't think you understand what giving a little bit of time in college means. Like, you don't have time.

Oh, you don't have time. Exactly.

You don't have time. Your schedule is not your schedule. Your life is not your life. Like, you don't have time. So number one, For Dean Smith to ask you that, I think is incredible. Number 2, for him to allow you to have the time to do that, like you don't have time in college. You don't have time. I think that's honorable.

You don't.

I think that's very honorable.

Yeah, so it's a different experience.

You join the team with Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins. When you arrive and you join those guys on that team, obviously looking at Michael Jordan then, No one's saying, "Oh man, I see him. This guy is gonna be the greatest player ever to play." But did you see something in him different at that time? Maybe work ethic, maybe athleticism, something that made you think he was special? Or was it just like, "Nah, like that's, he's Michael Jordan. That's my teammate.

He's really good." I think it was after, it was the summers that I noticed it. It was his work ethic in the summertime. During the season, we're all working the same amount. So no one's getting an edge on work ethic. Like, we're all doing the same stuff.

Absolutely.

But in the off-season, when the pros, at that time, you know, we probably had 22 guys who were in the NBA from North Carolina, and they all would come back and play, and he would just dominate guys. And these are guys who are NBA All-Stars that I want, like, I want to get their autograph.

And—

Absolutely. He would just dominate, Draymond Green, in terms of like, everyone has a day. Like, I'm sure at East Langston, you had a day or two or week you go, but it was every day that he did it. And he was the first guy that I saw, 'cause I'm a trash talker, I'm from New York, that's all we do, talk, talk, talk. So, but he was the first guy that I saw that could back up everything he said. He could back it up. And he was the— I always said to him, I'm like, "Yo, you're the perfect basketball body." He's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "You're 6'6", you could play with the bigs, and you're 6'6" and you could guard the smalls, and you have super athleticism." And then in college, he had a perfect jump shot. So I used to be like, "How do you miss? Your jump shot, your elbow's always in. You should never miss." The one thing that I thought that he didn't have when I was a freshman was his ball handling. He was good at darting to the rim, Draymond Green, but he couldn't shake you. So I used to be like, "Oh, I got Mike, I got Mike." And he's like, "Oh, you gonna guard me?" I'm like, "Yeah, 'cause you can't dribble." You ain't got, back then we used to say handle. You ain't got no handle. So long story short, we playing pickup, blah, blah, blah. So next year comes, And he goes, "You calling me?" I'm like, "Yeah, I got my, you like—" Handles ridiculous. He's like, "I got a handle now." So even like that, you know, the documentary says he thinks of things, even when he doesn't probably, he probably don't even remember saying it. But he came back a year later and the first thing he says, "Oh, I got a handle now." And he worked on, I'll say this about him, Dray. He's the only bad player in basketball history that the things he came in that were, that was his weaknesses were his strengths when he left the league. His ball handling, his shooting, his turnaround jump shot, his post game was probably some of his weaknesses. Those were his strengths when he left the league. There's nobody else like that. Right? Yeah, I'm telling you. Kobe. Kobe?

What did Kobe— Kobe's ball handling wasn't that— Kobe's ball handling was good.

Kobe was an Air One dribbler as a rookie. He was doing all that Air One stuff as a rookie.

It was fancy, but I don't think it was like— like he was doing the long crossover and stuff, but it wasn't a tight handle. It was loose.

Mike couldn't do a long crossover. Like when he got in the league, he couldn't. That pullback on Brian Russell, He would've never been able to do that when he first got in the league. There was like no way that I would imagine he's doing that move to win an NBA Finals. That's what I mean. Like that move for Kobe, I would still be like, "Okay, he likes to do all that." And one, he could— I would never imagine Mike, that would be his signature move that like could define his career. Could define his career. Like I just think that, I mean, Kobe might be that guy, but I don't know any other like, that every weakness was his strength at the end.

That's impressive. That's— so Mike leaves the team, the team, once he leaves, the team kind of becomes yours. You become a consensus All-American, go on to be the number 6 pick by the Sacramento Kings. What was your experience like in getting drafted to Sacramento? Because I know for me, like you went from New York to North Carolina, that's a big difference. I got drafted to the Golden State Warriors. I had never been out of the state of Michigan. So I was homesick going to California. And I don't think people, people would ask me like, "Yo, what's it like out there?" I would just say different. They'd be like, "What's different?" I don't really know how to explain different to you, but it was just, it's just different. And that was a big thing for me my rookie year that if I'm being honest with you, it almost cost me my career. 'Cause I was so homesick. Like I was just turned off by all of it. What was that experience like for you getting drafted to Sacramento?

See these tears coming down my eye? I was ready to cry. First of all, I didn't even know Sacramento. Like they don't, they didn't come on TV. They had terrible management and ownership at that time. But the one caveat was Bill Russell had just taken the job over. So Bill, I have the distinction of being the only player that Bill Russell has drafted.

Wow.

He drafted me into the NBA, you know? And so the great thing about that experience was every day Bill had a rule that I had to sit next to him on all team planes and all team buses. And he said, and I had to hear, I heard every Boston Celtics story. I heard every civil rights story. I heard, 'cause he never slept on any of the planes or the things. So I had, "Rookie, rookie, you didn't sleep last night?" So I heard every story. That was the great caveat. Of that relationship, I became very close with Bill Russell.

Yeah.

Even to this day, I still speak to his wife. You know, I mean, like, really close with him in 6 months. The downfall of that is the team was terrible, and the organization wasn't a championship mix. So, meaning, like, North Carolina has a rule, Dean Smith had a rule. If a player calls him in the office, He's gonna pick up the phone— Roy Williams did it, and I'm sure Hubert Davis is doing it now. He's going to pick up the phone regardless if he's talking to the president of the United States unless he's talking to another player. That's the only time he won't pick up for you. I get drafted on draft night, Dre! Hey, you get drafted, they give you know how they give you the phone?

You talk to the team? Uh, I was at home champ so I don't know all that but you got a big dog.

Oh no, nah bro just sayin'.

How about this champ please?

A 35th pick, I didn't get that experience champ. The fabled list. Funny. You can remember every— I forgot about that. So you pick up the phone and they go— I'm like, hey, this is Kenny Smith. The secretary goes, one second. I'm on the phone for like 3 minutes. This is on draft night, right after I get— I come off the stage. She gets back, she goes, hi, Sacramento Kings, may I help you? I go, uh, this is Kenny Smith. I just got drafted by the— Draymond Green. "This is Kenny Smith. I'm here to talk to Bill Russell." I didn't say drafted yet. And so she goes, "One second." Another 4 minutes come, go by. "Hi, this is Sacramento Kings. May I help you? Who's calling?" I said, "This is Kenny Smith. I get drafted." So right then I'm turned off. Like, I'm turned off.

Wow.

I'm like, I just got drafted 6th and I'm going to a place that don't value, they don't value me. They don't even, they don't value what's going on. Now obviously Coach Russell hadn't been there long enough to change the culture. He was new just like me. Me. So the culture was so bad in Sacramento. We used to do our own laundry. Guys would forget their jerseys, Draymond Green, because they're doing their own laundry at home and they're packing their bags. You know how the team takes care of that?

Yeah.

You see, every team, and even in the '90s, man, teams did that. They— you're doing all of that and you're trying to play and concentrate, and they're like, oh, you want your laundry done? You gotta pay $100 a month, which is nothing. But the fact that they would make you pay to have someone to do their laundry to show that they didn't care about you. That's all it does. Because $100 doesn't hurt me, it doesn't hurt the team. It just shows me that you don't care. That's all.

Absolutely.

So I didn't like that experience. Going to Houston was like a godsend.

Yeah.

Oh, it was like a breath of fresh air.

You go to Houston, you're there with Hakeem. What's something that, people don't know about Hakeem that made him special? Like obviously we all know the footwork was incredible, but what was something that he did on the basketball court that was more of an underrated thing that people don't quite give credit for that was actually one of the things that really made him great?

Before I go to basketball, I've been blessed to play with great people and be around great mentors. That's why I wrote the book, honestly. He's the most honorable man I've ever met in my life. Most honorable, Draymond. Like, if a king, like right now, if I was stuck on a highway and they gave me a cell phone, they said, you got 3 people to call to come get you, I'm calling Akeem. He's gonna be one of the 3. He's always gonna do exactly what he's gonna, what he says what he's gonna do. He never variants from what he says. He's so honorable in what his word is. Like we all, we had a saying in New York, word is bond. "Your word is bond, your word is bond." Yeah. Like, no, his word is bond. It will, it is 100% of what it is. He means it all the time. Always the most honorable dude I've ever been around. So on a basketball court, you're gonna trust it. "Yo, Kenny, I'm gonna be there. I'm coming, don't worry." If he, he's gonna be there. He said it. He's gonna be there, he's gonna be there. So the most underrated thing was his word. The second most underrated as a physical standpoint was he would be unbelievable in today's game because he could switch 1 to 5. And so he could— guy come off the pick and you got the 1, oh, he's moving his feet. And if you throw the lob, he's going back to still try to contest the lob. I have never seen a player that could double in the pick and roll, and get back to his man on the roll and still block the shot. He was the most unique athlete in terms of instinct. Like, he just knew when to leave, he knew when to stay, he knew when to come. I know you're a great defensive player, and that's why I kind of watch certain things that you do on the pick and roll, and it's very— okay, imagine if you were 6'10" and your athleticism was Blake Griffin. Oh. That was Hakim. Now, how many people would score on you? I mean, that's him.

Jesus.

He's you on a defensive end at 6'10" with Blake Griffin's young athleticism.

That's impressive.

That's who he is.

That's impressive. You know, I heard something about Hakim that I think is even more impressive than anything he's done. I heard Hakeem owns like half of Houston. I heard he's a real estate guru. And I don't know if that's true or not, but if that is true and he's a real estate guru like that, the fact that he is that, you don't hear anything from him. You don't see anything. Like, and so the fact I've heard that and then you see him—

Oh, you heard it right. Elijah Juan Corporation is real. And the crazy thing is he started it in college.

Really?

He was living in a townhome in college. He gets drafted by Houston.

Yes.

And his first purchase, he bought the condo that he was in. And then it just so on and so on. Then he moved, got a house, kept, and it just, but he is the most underrated wealthy man in the NBA. Underrated, his wealth of, not only that, but just his business savvy. And you know, to have that kind of mindset he's always had, I've never walked in a room or to his house or to anything and said, "Man, what is this dude doing around Hakeem?" Never that. His company that he keeps, you like, "Man, can I know you? Can I get to know who you are? Can I figure out how to be next to you?" His company was impeccable. Like I said, the most honorable person I ever met.

That's impressive. And speaking of Hakeem, obviously dominated with his back to the basket. Do you think, that style will ever come back into the NBA with the way the NBA has transitioned to more like, 80% of centers in the NBA, maybe even more, can't play with their back to the basket today.

Yeah, he would kill this era only because, Dray, he was actually the king of the mid-range shot too. So like, his whole thing was, I'm gonna face you and like do inside pivots and do guard moves as a big. So he and I, Vernon Maxwell and all of them. We sometimes, we shoot after practice and he would just do all guard moves. He's like, "Oh Kenny, it's the same moves on the box." Up and unders and step-throughs out front. You know, crossover, head fake, it's the same stuff. I'm gonna do all your moves. Let's go, let's go. And he does. But then what was underrated, he never would take 'em. But you know, I shot a lot of threes. So he would always get in a three shooting contest. And he'd make 5 outta 8 threes. From each spot, like easily. But in the game, he's like, I said, "Draymond, why don't you shoot threes? 'Cause you know." He's like, "Why am I going to shoot threes? I only have to play 3 times a year. Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, and, uh, and Shaq. That's it. Everyone else I kill." He was like, he's like, so he's like, "No one else can guard me here. The rest of them, that's it. I move out." He said, "The only time I move off the block is against those 3 guys." 'cause no one else could guard me. But he could shoot the 3. He led the league in steals one year. So defensively, he was incredible. Defensive Player of the Year, MVP. His mid-range game was crazy. His pick-and-roll lob to the rim would've been Blake Griffin-like. And he would've shot the 3. He would've been like, I'm trying to think of a, he would've been able to finish like, Clink could tell him, compel him on the lobs. 'Cause he read the, he knew, he knows when to leave. He would've been defensively 6'10" you. And he would've probably been, who takes that mid-range jumper now at the 5?

Who takes the mid-range J? Shit, Joel.

Joel. He's an athletic Joel Embiid. Me and Sam Cassell, 'cause Sam, you know, that's my guy. He always puts me on the phone when he's on the bus with all his '76ers. And they have this argument about how Dream couldn't guard Joel. "Come on, Kenny, come on now, tell him, Kenny." He's an athletic Joel to me. Like Joel is athletic, but he's more brute strength.

Yeah.

But they play a lot alike. A lot alike. That mid-range shot, he kind of backs you in. But I just think he's a much better defender than Joel. That's it. He's just a much better defender.

And strong enough, he had to be strong enough, right? He guards Shaq.

Yeah, yeah. Shaq, I've never seen anyone not be outpowered by Shaq but him. And I don't know if it was because it's his footwork, his strength, or just his tenacity. Like, Draymond Green, like, you'd like him. He's got a lot of that in you. Like, before he went to devout Muslim, like, it was like teams were fearful not only of him as a defender, but they were a little bit scared of his physicality, you know, and how he would treat you if you showed any type of weakness. So I had dog, I had him, Vernon Maxwell. I was talking so much, man. I was so happy that I had them dogs around me, man. Those two dudes, oh my God, unbelievable, unbelievable. Unbelievable. My favorite teammate of all time is probably Chucky Brown, just because we both from New York. But Vernon Maxwell and Sam Cassell and Mario Elliott, we used to just sit on the bus and do this all day, Draymond Green. Just what we're doing. So when I'm on TV, when I first got on, they used to be like, "Man, you should pay us. You just saying stuff we said in the back of the bus all them years. All them years." So those are my guys, man.

That's incredible. That's incredible. Speaking of y'all time with the Houston Rockets, I hate it because I've heard similar stuff like that with our championships. Not exactly the same, but along the lines. People say, if Michael Jordan didn't leave for those 2 years, do y'all still win those 2 championships? Quite frankly, it don't matter, you're a champion, but—

No, it matters. It matters. —what it does.

It matters. So what do you feel about that? What do you think happens if MJ does not leave those 2 years?

I'm gonna say this. Michael Jordan is, to me, the greatest player that ever touched a basketball. And I'm actually glad that we didn't play them because I love the resume that he has that he's never lost in the Finals. Because as a fan, a basketball fan, I think that's a great resume. But they wouldn't have beat us. They would not have beaten us, Draymond. Because of two things. Not because he wasn't the greatest player, because Hakeem was also the number— he would have been number one or two player in the world at that time too, in those championship runs. But they would—

the Bulls were too little then.

People forget they had— the reason they lost to Orlando wasn't Shaq, it was Horace Grant was gone. And Horace Grant was there, and they, they lifted Horace Grant up after the series because he dominated the series more than he's ever done offensively because they were too little. So all of those guys, and they were just too little for Dream. Weddington and Phil Jackson didn't double team. The next year we won it, they— he comes back. They hadn't had Rodman. Rodman wasn't there yet. They're still too little. So they just would have not been able to dominate us because in those— that first championship years, when they won, I think, 3 in a row. You know, we in the East and West, you only play 'em twice. We went 6-2 in the regular season against them. Now, it's not the playoffs. Like, it's different. But that just shows that, like—

It's different, of course, but—

Like, yo, in 3 years, y'all only beat them twice? Like, wait a minute. Like, that's saying a lot that they had trouble with us. Even when they were winning championships, they used to come to Houston and get Ls. So, and it was because they wouldn't double. And then when they, and then they were too slow on the perimeter. 'Cause myself, Vernon, and Sam at that time, we were, I was a Jet for a reason. I could get by people. Vernon get by people easily. Sam could dribble by people. They were just too slow with BJ, Steve, and they on the perimeter. So we got baskets a little bit more frequently too. So, nah, I don't think they would've beat us, man. I don't. I think they were too little. Now if they had Rodman, they would've beat us probably. I would've been like, mm, I ain't know about. But no Rodman, no Grant, we smacking them.

Why do they beat y'all if they had Rodman? Do you think Rodman would've guarded Dream well?

It's just the second top shot opportunities. Like we were getting second shot opportunities. You know, you don't have to, like Dream is gonna be efficient, but he might not be dominant in one game in a series. Like, so you have an ease, you can even it out. It's like every series, like, okay, when y'all played Cleveland, who would you guard?

Kevin Love.

Okay. Take you outta there. How many rebounds is Kevin Love gonna get?

Kevin Love a hell of a rebounder.

In his heyday, he was top 3. In that era, he was top 3 power forward in the game.

12 to 15 rebounds, you could book it.

You can book it. Now, not only rebound, offensive rebound, putbacks. You like, no, no, no, no, no. You gonna do a little bit of that, but we shutting some of that down. That's what they could have done. They could have shut it down. Without them? Nah. We wild on the boards. We all, he's all over the rim. He's an animal over the— it's too much. And we shooting threes. And we the first team to shoot threes, Dray. It's too much. We created the 4-out, 1-in offense. Nobody was doing that before us. We were all, everybody else was doing 2-guard fronts. We the first team to win an NBA championship playing 4 out and 1 in. Too much. It was too much for them.

So what happens, I think a lot of people don't understand from year to year, championship teams are different. Even if you go back to back, it's a different team. Like very seldomly does an NBA team come back the exact same from one year to the next. And it could be one or two pieces that, that the public may not see and they leaving and you know on that team, like, man, we missed this guy, we missed that guy. Was there something, someone that y'all lost after the second championship that changed the whole dynamic for y'all team?

I think it was management. The belief was that Draymond Green and Clyde got it done.

Uh-huh.

You know, in the moment, no one's believing that. Oh, it's a team. Oh, kumbaya, everybody did they part. Kenny, you broke the NBA record for threes that game. Sam, you came in and got 30 in game 2 of the NBA. Mario, you hit the kiss of death. Like, everybody, oh. Everybody remembers that in the moment. Then about a year and a half removed, They don't remember that. And they go, oh, we can get a guy, we can get a guy to do it. I'm gonna go here with you. We can get a guy to do what Gary Payton III does.

Oh no, you can't.

Oh no, you can't. Now somebody might run into that role, but you gonna miss it. You like, you're gonna miss GP3. His role is big, was big.

GP2.

GP2 rather, right? GP2, you gonna miss GP2. Like you gonna miss this guy. So like, I thought that they thought we were a 3-point shooting team and they forgot the fact that we were 3, we were able to get 3s off because if you ran at us, we went by you.

Yeah.

Where then they brought in other guys around Draymond and Clyde that they were just 3-point shooters. And so they really couldn't create offense for themselves if they ran at them. Like, you know, you run at Steph, he gonna go by you. You run at Klay, he got the two dribble pull up. Those guys are like, no, we staying in this spot. We not moving.

And we shooting.

And we shooting. Or we not, or we gotta get off. They're just getting threes.

Yeah.

And I thought they just, management didn't really, they didn't take what Sam Cassell did. They didn't take what Robert Horry did. They didn't take what myself did. Mario they kept, but I don't think they thought that the value that the three of us brought was just the spacing of the floor.

Absolutely. And speaking of management, a question I actually had that I wanted to ask you. Few years back, your name would constantly come up in, when head coaching jobs were opening up, your name would come up that you wanted to get into coaching. Is that something you still want to do? And well, let's just start there. Is that something that you still wanna do? Do you wanna be a head coach in the NBA?

Well, interesting enough, I've only once told some— I never had an agent initially that would even look for those things. I was just getting calls. So like, just like you said, I'd be on a set, literally my phone would ring. And they were like, Kenny, what you just said made sense. Would you wanna interview for the job? It's coaching. So I did like 3 of those and I was like, yo, I might need an agent. So I never pursued the first 3. So I had no idea what even an interview would look like. I didn't know what you're supposed to come in thinking or anything like that. I think I've gotten past the stage where now the phone rings and they go, would you be interested in running our team? Yeah. And so because of Draymond, I think the— now I know most of the guys who are presidents of teams. I know a bunch of general managers. I know a bunch of agents. So it's like my relationships— I know a bunch of players. I'm in the gym in the summertime in LA watching dudes and hanging out with dudes and watching dudes play because I have— Yeah. Younger sons. So I take them to the pickup games where KD and Kyrie and, and Trae Young and all those dudes go. I'm like, yo, let's go, let's go watch. I'm a hoop person. So my relationships are, are real enough where I think they starting to say that. And I've gotten one last year, and I said, no, I'm not ready. I just didn't want to— I just didn't think that they were ready. And so now I think I'm getting those calls about "Yo, can you help put a team together?" 'Cause I got my ear to the street, so to speak.

You know? Absolutely. Absolutely. And at Turner, I know all you guys just signed new deals. Like, how much longer do you see yourself doing that? It's been 25 years, which is absolutely insane.

Insane. Like, I could do this forever, honestly, because Draymond Green, I could watch y'all game and in the first 6 minutes of the game, I could say it's an 8-point game. I can't say it before the game, but once I see the first like 6, 7 minutes and the trend of the game, I'm like 90% right. Like 90% of the time I'm like, if they don't do this, it's gonna not gonna happen. Because as Golden State, you're looking, I always tell like, I talk to even Bob sometimes, you know, your guy Bob Myers.

Yeah.

I'm like, I says that teams a lot of times, You guys as a general manager, president, you're looking at it like this. So you only see your hand. My job is to pay attention to the 27 teams that are, or the 20, let's say not 27, like the 20 teams that have a chance to win it, right?

Yeah.

That's gonna make the playoffs and have a chance to win it. I gotta pay attention to those. So I'm seeing all of their trends. I'm seeing what they're doing over here before you even play 'em. Y'all might, you might play the Knicks once, but I'm watching the Knicks 20 times. So I'm just—

Absolutely.

I just know all the trends of the league that I'm not looking at it like this.

Yes. Yes. And do you feel comfortable like with the way players have changed? Because it's been a long time since you've had to deal with players. And I'm telling you now, I'm in year 11. These young dudes different, man. Do you feel comfortable with having to deal with young talents coming in? 'Cause it's just a totally different generation and these young dudes different, man.

There's a saying that you know already. Like, has Draymond Green changed when he's gotten, you know, these big contract? No, it's usually the people around you change.

That's a fact. That's a fact.

I ain't changing. Like, the one thing I know about you, just because you come into the studio, you know, guys come in on a regular to our studio, the honesty wins. Like—

That's a fact.

Honesty. You ain't got to be brutal and be, you know, like, you don't have to be condescending. But no, like, bro, this is really what I see. You know? And I knew it was different. And I know if this guy took criticism, then anybody could. Two guys, honestly. But LeBron was the first guy. I went on tour with him when he was— when that movie came out about his life. So they asked me to MC in all of these different cities. And he had won the MVP. They didn't win the championship that year.. But now that you got a movie made about his life. So he's talking, we're in the back. You know how we— everybody's in the back, you start talking. He's like, man, what do you— you know, Kenny, what do you see? And I said, LeBron, like, I don't know if you're gonna hear what I'm saying. And he's like, what do you mean I'm not gonna hear what you're saying, Kenny? He's like, because— I said, because you're the greatest player in the world right now. You got a movie made about your life that I'm emceeing. "and you still got holes in your game." And sometimes I said, and there's a, and I said, "There's a saying that my dad used to always tell me." And he used to say, "It's hard to work hard when you're sleeping in silk robes." And I don't know if you sleeping in silk robes. So he's like, "No, no, tell me." I said, "The one thing I see is like, your back to the basket game is just average." I said, "And at times you pass up an open shot for a greater shot, but the greatest shot is your open shot." Yeah. Now I don't know if he, one ear out the other, and he just did that naturally. But I'm able to tell him that and he was able to respond to it. This is the MVP of the league at that time. So I'm like, if I can tell him that, I'm gonna tell anybody, anybody. Like it's not, Guys recognize real. They know what it is, and they know when they fake— you faking it. Draymond Green, you know when a general manager or president of team walks to you and he's faking his speech.

Facts.

You know, for us, you can see right through it. You can see right through it. And you're like, I'm not— and we're from, uh, we're from neighborhoods that We have to read people fast.

You have to, 'cause it's life or death if you got the wrong read.

That's the difference, Dray. Like, other people's decisions have consequences. Ours had life or death consequences. So you gotta read fast. I know I'm in a room with Dray. I'm like, I'm not faking anything I see or hear. And I don't, but that even, that's not even my nature. So yeah. And then do I know damn basketball? I know it better than, Yeah, I don't think there's nobody know it more than me that do what I do. So of course, like, I'm coming to Dray, I'm gonna be like, yo, Dray, listen, this altercation you had, like, there's nobody in the NBA that's not had a fight, bro. There's nobody in the league. I'm not bringing you guys together. You bring y'all together. Absolutely. And I'll see you tomorrow. And I'm walking out the room. That's it. What am I gonna bring you in a room, have you talk? Like, now you looking at me like, oh, he's trying to be some fake police cop and try to— No, Dre, you know how to have— You done had many— We've been in areas where we've had many of this, where you gotta do— Have something like that happen and that dude ride on the bus next to you in school. That happens every day in our neighborhoods growing up.

Absolutely.

That's not unusual. It's just unusual it was on camera.

Yeah.

Now I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go, you know what, Dray, you handle him, I'm gonna handle the media. See you later. That's it. How you gonna feel with that? You gonna be like, okay, that's real. I'm not faking it.

You gotta handle it because number one, it's been, the ball's just been thrown back into your court. What you gonna do with it? You can't fail in that moment.

Right. It's your job to do that. 'Cause I could bring y'all in all day, but if y'all don't like each other, y'all don't get it resolved, it should never resolved anyway. So like, what am I doing? I'm just yelling, but I'm telling who's gotta handle it and I'm out. But I'm gonna, I know how to handle Charles, Stephen A. Smith, Shaq. I know how to handle Ernie. I know how to handle everybody on TV. I know how to talk to them. I got this. I got that.

Speaking of Shaq, Charles, Ernie, do— and I've been up there on the set, I've had the pleasure and honor of being on the set with you guys. But this is something that I truly wonder, do y'all view that as a team and there's roles within that team when y'all step up on that stage? Because it's an entire production, like that show, That show has gotten bigger than anybody, like, than any one person. And it's an entire production. And I feel like everyone makes it work in their own way. Do y'all feel like it's a team and you have roles in what you do up there?

100%. And the one thing that I've learned that, and you've learned being on championship teams, I'm sure, is that everyone's role is really valuable. Like, it's by— I'm not running into a Christmas tree, bro. But we need that. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Charles is not running to the board and breaking down and putting X's and O's and going in the scri— but we need that. Charles is gonna come with an unfiltered filter coffee machine of black coffee, and you're gonna taste it. But we need that. Ernie is gonna just be the ability to understand when to move on to the next segment.

Yeah.

We need that. So like, at no point do we ever look— here it is. And I don't know if you felt like this and you can agree. When you on a championship team, I never feel in competition with the guy next to me.

Never.

There it is.

Never.

Never. I don't feel competition with them anymore. I've gone past that. You know, initially, and then you get— now you get— we've gone past that. I'm never sitting on a bench hoping Sam Cassell misses the shot so I can get back in the damn game. I'm like, yo, kill this dude, Sam. You know what I mean? Like, I never feel in competition. And that is how I feel on our show. I never feel in competition with those guys.

Have you ever felt like Shaq and Chuck would really get into it? I don't think people realize, like, some of those moments you have up there, like, you're still a human being, you still have an opinion, and at the end of the day, we're all competitive as hell.

Yeah. That's my job.

And so—

That's my job. Like, I'mma throw gasoline on the fire, but I also, I know I'm in charge of the extinguisher too. So when it gets that point and their egos are, here.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. I know my job at times is to take the pressure off of it being about Chuck and him and make it about me and him, or making it about me and Chuck at times too. So it's not where he's just like, "It's them." Because they are here and they're ready to come. And then 5 minutes later, that's what I'm saying, 5 minutes later, we're in the back, They're picking each other up. Shaq is like, "I bet I can lift you up. I bet I can bench press you." 5 minutes after, they were ready to just— That's what we know. We grew up in that. We understand that that is not long-lasting, but it's real. It's real.

And speaking of TV, you done something on TV, and I have an opinion about it. Well, not necessarily an opinion, but thoughts.

Okay.

And so I guess it is an opinion of what I think I see personally. You and your ex-wife, y'all had a reality TV show.

Mm-hmm.

Did you feel like having a reality TV show ultimately affected your marriage in a negative way?

No, I don't think that was it at all because Draymond,— I was never all in because— and I produced it. So I was the executive producer and producer. And I went to Turner because at the time in my household, my daughter, who's now on NCIS LA, and she's LLKJ's daughter on the show.

So she's his daughter. Oh, nice.

So she's done like 10, 12 episodes. My other daughter just finished a Disney movie. And my ex was— she wanted to be in television. So I was like, as a man, whenever all of those things are in your household, you're like, how can I help? You know?

And I was like, look—

Absolutely. I was like, look, I don't wanna do this. I'm doing this for you guys. So I'm just wanting to shine light on you guys so it could possibly help propel your career. And through that, that show got my daughter a record deal. Got my other daughter managing. So it did move in the right directions. 'Cause I was never on like, you was never gonna hear like, I'm like Biggie, I'm old school. I'm like, problem with my wife, don't discuss 'em. Leah Jess, I lost 'em. You know what I mean? I'm Biggie. So you're never gonna see any of that. And that's why we only did one season. 'Cause you never gonna see any of that. I think that if there was one reason though, anyone, if you have a girlfriend, an ex, a wife, ex-wife, there's one reason why y'all not together you would still be together. There's never one reason.

It's gotta be a— Yeah.

It's gotta be a multiple multitude of things to end something so big where family's involved and, you know, friends are involved, her friends and your friends, the other, like, it's gotta be a multitude of things. They could be a multitude of small things, but there's a multitude. But yeah, yeah, I don't think that, actually that was fun. And I'll hit you on this. Because my kids were going to college, my older kids. So it was the first time that they were back, everybody was back in the house for the first time. So we were playing board games. So we were telling stories that we had forgotten. So that actually helped it go longer than it probably should have.

Wow.

It probably, it helped go longer. And because of that, we became a little bit more of a unit again. And so there it is.

Do you have any regrets as far as your marriage goes or your— I mean, no, not really, honestly.

'Cause I really believe, Dray, like for me, when I hear people, from where we come from, when you hear about divorce, you hear like, oh, he was cheating, she was cheating, somebody was fighting, somebody beat somebody else. When none of those things happen, I'm always in the mindset of like, oh, we still gonna work. 'Cause none of those things were at play. So now I'm like, I had to get out of my Queens Left Right City mode and say, what? This is why? This is not? Like, you know what I mean? Because Left Right City Kenny is different from the Kenny that was here, you know what I'm saying? So I'm like, what are you talking about?

Absolutely.

Like, what? There's none of this. None of that, none of this, none of that. Wait, this is— we not feeling good about each other? That was— I had to get into, like, another space of intellect that I probably will help me in the future. Because where I come from, those are the only 3 things that you get. You don't even— that's not your girl no more. Forget wife. That ain't my girl because I cheated on her, or she's fight— she cheated on me, or fight, or we just arguing all day. That's the only reason. So for me, that level of intelligence to kind of come to and have more of an emotional intelligence about it. But what I always realized, Dray, is in life, when you— this is when I feel good about myself. And it wasn't really just her, but just in general. When I realized, like, I'm great for me, I'm good enough for me., but I don't have to be good enough for Draymond Green. And when you get it, like, it's easy said than done, but when you can accept that, you're like, oh, life is good. Like, you walk around smiling all the time and people like, man, yo, you still— how you look so young? And that— I'm like, yo, because I smile a lot, bro. Because I know I'm okay with not being good enough, or just being good enough for me. I'm okay with that.

I respect. I got a few more questions. We've been going for an hour. Be conscious of your time.

Nah, we good. Yeah.

And two of 'em are advice and then one, I want your opinion on something because it's something that's very close to me and then very close to you. But that's gonna be the last one. Number one is, what would your advice be to me, someone that's, actually I got four more questions. What would your advice be to me, someone that's looking to go into television, when I'm done playing, what is something that, what would your advice be and what's something that you would've done differently than you actually did?

For you, I would say my advice for you is the more you win now on your way out in the last 5, 6 years to this career, the more longer your television career will be. So now you've established yourself as the guy who we can talk to, not just about the game, but about politics, about social issues. Everyone else has already established that, you know? So now the more you win is the more insight you have on everything else. Because you're gonna have won as a young player. You're gonna be one of— young as a great player. You're gonna learn as the best player. You're gonna learn as the best defender. Then you're gonna learn— you're gonna be at a minimum role, how to win. So you're gonna be able to talk to about everybody and how they feel in a locker room. And nobody else will be able to do what you do. So the more you win now, so now my focus would be, let me lock in on how do we win more championships? Because my role is so different from when I was, like when you first got there, it's like, yo, if Draymond get 12 rebounds and 16 points, they might not win. Now it's like, if he don't lock, then it became, if he don't lock down the guy and get 12. Now every, your role just, so you're gonna know what every player feels. And to me, win more. And the more you win, you'll be doing this for 30 years. You'll be like, "Oh, Kenny said 20, I did it 30." Like, because you'll have an insight when everybody's talking about something, it goes— No, I think that's one of the values that I have right now. I was, in high school, McDonald's All-American, voted top 35 player ever in high school basketball. You get a ball for that. I looked on that ball, I was like, Shaq and KG and Kyrie. I'm like, damn, I'm on a crazy ball, right?

Uh-huh.

College, I was the college player of the year. McDonald's, I mean, player of the year in college and planned out a story program. Won 2 NBA championships. And then also at the end of the career, I was like, oh damn, my role is so diminished. So now I know, I had never had a DNP. Until my 10th year in the league.

Wow.

I had never— Draymond Green, I had never not started on a team ever until my 9th year in the league.

Wow.

I had never come off the bench. High school, college, or pro. Until my 9th year in the league. So I used to— I got a different appreciation in my last year and a half about guys, how they come off the bench, how they might not play that night. Like, I was like, holy shit, this is it. I was like, oh my God, I used to laugh at these dudes and ask them why they not ready. How'd you come in the game and you not excited? I understood it. You're gonna understand what champions think.

So did that, did it really affect you in a negative way in that 9th season once you realized you were coming off the bench? Like, what was your attitude? What was your mindset? Initially?

I, I thought I could always contribute until it was one, you know, they say there's one play. It was one play for me, Draymond Green. When I used to get a steal, right, I get the steal, you know, you take a picture to see who's tracing you, and I would see guys, and I would just see guys like, and about my 9th year in the league, I saw guys doing this. I'm like, damn, they think they could catch me. And then they were catching me. Like, make it layups I have to do where before I was just going in, I'm dunking, I couldn't. I'm like, damn, I can't dunk it. I can't break it. I'm like, it's time to give it up. Because no matter how much money you make, the feeling of feeling inferior—

Yes.

There's no value on that. And I was starting to feel inferior. And whenever I feel inferior in anything, I'm like, I cannot be part of this. And I had another deal. The Spurs called me and were like, yo, you wanna come be backup for A.B. Johnson? I was like, no, I do not wanna feel inferior. And that was the best decision I made 'cause I stayed at TNT.

So, so, so in your mind, what Russell Westbrook is doing is honorable.

But I don't know if he's feeling inferior yet.

But he's playing well and he's taking on that role and he— No, but he's trying to—

He's playing really well. Athleticism. And in terms of, you know, getting to the rim, he still gets there. I don't know if he's at that point. I think Allen Iverson got there where he was probably like, "Yo, I can't get by people like I used to with the crossover." You know, Russ is about a year, about another year away from that. But what he's doing and his mental fortitude to live in Los Angeles, be from Los Angeles, and they make every game like, it's a playoff game, every play is like a playoff play, and still have the energy and the excitement to play. I've never seen that, no. I don't think I could do that. I would be like, "Trade me." I just couldn't do that in that environment knowing that— and see, knowing that the guy in front of me, I'm better than.

Yeah.

Like, he really knows he's better than the guy in front of him.

Absolutely. 100%.

And the guy in front of him knows he's better than him.

100%.

And I commend him for that.

I don't think, and that's why I asked that, 'cause I don't think people are speaking enough about what he's doing. The way people were beating him down about not wanting to come off the bench. Now he's accepted and he's playing well. And all of a sudden it's not even a story anymore.

Not even a story.

That be my problem. When I speak on new media, that be my problem with media. It's like, that's bullshit. Like this man was getting destroyed.

Yeah.

And I mean destroyed by everybody taking hits at his character, which I think he's a very high character individual, getting destroyed. And then he does exactly what everyone says he needs to do. Take on that role, playing as good as any sixth man in the NBA right now. And it's not a story. That's bullshit.

Yeah, 100%. Because he's a guy at one time, he couldn't even yawn on the bench.

Yes.

Now you know how when you're on the bench, this happens to every player. And what I realized when about 50 in the league, the yawning is from you needing oxygen. It's not from you being tired sometimes. And so, you know, you're like, you're sitting on the bench, you're like, [YAWNS]. And you do, if he did that,— it would've been all over. Russell Westbrook bored with the game. Like, no! If you keep a camera on every NBA player has done that and does that all the time. You yawn, you playing 4 games in 5 nights, you need oxygen and you're gonna yawn. And the excitement and the energy of the arena makes you yawn. They like, that happens. It's not only because you're tired, but he couldn't do it. And I commend him. It is bullshit.

I think. What do you make of player-driven media? I've gotten in the media, Patrick Beverley, CJ McCullum, but a lot of guys are starting to do podcasts. A lot of guys are starting to do different things. What do you make of the player-driven media side? Obviously you still have traditional media, but what do you make of the player-driven media movement that's been taking place over the last 2 years?

I don't know how you do it. I didn't have the mental fortitude to do what you do, honestly, because I took things to heart. So when I used to go on talk radio and, you know, and I call in, they'd be like, "Hey, we want you to have you on." I'd be like, "I'm not taking callers." Like, why? 'Cause I don't want John from Indiana who's sitting in his basement to ask me a question and affects my psyche of the game, who has no idea. I'm like, "You're supposed to be an expert. I like your show, I'll come on." you allow yourself to be open to guys who do not know basketball. Like, they have no clue. And you answer questions or answer their comments. I just, I don't have thick enough skin. I'm not gonna lie. I just would, it would affect me in a negative way to where it would affect my play. Like, for you, I don't know how you and CJ do it because neither one of, CJ is still getting 25, 30. Like, you doing it. Yeah. I couldn't do that because I just felt that people just don't know enough.

I agree. I mean, people don't know. People don't know enough. And I speak on that all the time. Just how everyone thinks they know basketball. Like it basketball.

Yeah, but the question I have for you, Draymond, is like, why? My question to you is why would you allow Miles Davis, Jay-Z, we are that of basketball. We are the most unique people in the world. Why? Jay-Z's not letting somebody come in his session and tell him how to rhyme. Like, you know what I mean? Like, oh, you a rap fan, but you don't know cadence. You don't know how to get there. You don't know beats. You don't know the percussion, how it mix. You have no clue. How do you do that every day and allow that to happen? I don't even do that at TNT. Like, how do you do that?

I think for me, number one is, I think for me it's about what you get out of it, right? Like, for the most part, I get a laugh out of it. Like, I think, like, what I take from it is different lessons of how, dumb people are. I feel like it allows me to operate in my everyday life because you are very dumb if you think you know basketball as well as me.

Draymond Green.

If you know basketball as well as you know basketball, it shows me how dumb you are because you think you can watch this maybe 2 games a day or, you know, and no one really watched 2 games a day, but You think you can consume basketball the little amount that you do, and your understanding of what's going on is as good as my understanding. It help— I feel like it helps me in a lot of different areas in life because it gives me a perspective.

Yeah, I think— Because the thing is, like, which most people don't understand is, I don't care who's one of the greatest basketball fans, in 3 hours, you consume more basketball than they will in 3 months.

Absolutely.

Because you've gone to practice, you've watched film, you've watched the other team, you've watched your game, you've lifted, you've getting prepared, you're doing like 9 things consumed about basketball and they're watching one game. So in 3 hours, you've done more than most people have done in 3 months. I can't talk to people like that. I just don't have the patience for that. I just don't. I could answer like a, barbershop call, you know, LeBron or Jordan. But I'm not talking about how do you think Draymond Green affects the team? No, we not, we not getting into that. We not getting into that.

Yeah.

We not getting into that.

Facts, facts. No, no doubt. Before we get outta here, man, I got one last question I wanna ask you. And like I said, it's one that obviously affected me in my life, but you know, and the relationship that I still have with him, but also you hold a relationship with him as well. What do you make, That here we are 11 years later, Mark Jackson took a franchise that had no success, goes to 2 straight playoffs and gets fired. Now you can make what you want of him getting fired, everyone can. That's neither here nor there. You got fired, teams move on. And quite frankly, it's hard to say they made the wrong decision We win a championship the next year. Now you can make the argument that, hey, they would've won if Mark was there next year too. All right, maybe you believe it, maybe you don't, who cares? But what do you make of him not getting a job as an NBA head coach? It's been 11 years now. He's still not a head coach or well, 9 since he's been out. So it's 9 years since he's been out. He's still not a head coach. And if I'm looking at this, I'm like, well, I watched him go with a young Steph Curry, young Klay Thompson, young Draymond Green. And if he did nothing else, he gave those guys confidence. Well, guess what? Half the team in, half the teams in the league need someone who can go give their guys confidence, who can show them the way. Young guys, you look at all these teams, super young guys, and he hasn't gotten that opportunity. What do you make of that?

I just think that there were facts that were lied upon, and there were lies that now became facts. So there's a— the message of now each year, the lie gets bigger and the facts get smaller. So there are lies about Mark Jackson right now that I hear, and they go, yo, "Hey, your boy did this and what? Your boy said that and your—" I'm like, "No, that's a lie. I speak to the dude every day." Like, I speak to Mark at least once a week. Like, "No, Mike doesn't think like that. He didn't say that. No, he didn't do that." "Oh, this was a fact." And then it gets lied on. So now as an owner or a general manager, they're hearing the lies and they're not doing the research to find the truth. 'Cause the truth would say exactly what you said. Are there coaches that have done things that you would say, man, why'd you do it that way? Of course, every coach. You probably could do that with Steve. But then when you add lies to it, there's no one to defend the lie. And that's the problem. There's no one there to defend the lie on his behalf. And Mark is choosing not to. Defend the lie. And I would defend the lie all day. I'd be on, you'd see me on every stage. I'm like, yo, he's lying. He did this. And this is actually what happened. And so, but in terms of coaching and basketball knowledge and seeing what he, I saw him got outta you and Steph. And Steph Curry, before he got there, did not play in the fourth quarters of games. They used to play Monte Ellis. Monte Ellis. And they would say Steph could not play in the fourth quarters because defensively he could not handle the— I used to watch the Golden State Warriors and they used to say that. And he was going to be traded.

Yeah, he was definitely going to be traded.

He was going to be traded until Mark Jackson got there. He saved not only the franchise, he saved the league. Like, you think of Steph Curry It's not. He saved basketball by that, by making this dude what he is and allowing him to be who he was. He saved basketball and changed the culture of the way we play today based on the way Steph plays. But someone had to have the vision to allow that to happen. He was the vision. He was not doing that before he got there. Neither were you. There was no undersized power forwards doing what you do. Klay Thompson didn't have the free rein they do. It's a travesty that he's not coaching basketball.

I mean, I agree. I know what he did. I always tell people, you can look around the league, you have coaches that give guys confidence and you have coaches that takes confidence. And he is somebody that gave us, if nothing else, The ultimate confidence. Everybody thought he was crazy. I don't know if you remember this, check this out.

I came to you guys' game and he brought me in the locker room, right?

Absolutely, I definitely remember.

When he was coaching. And he's speaking to the team and he goes, "Kenny, I just want you to see the team that's gonna be standing in the White House." Mm-hmm, I definitely remember that. And here y'all are the other, last week, again, standing in the White House.

Yesterday.

And I said, Mark, when you gave that prophecy, you should have said, standing in the White House with me. You didn't add me to it. That's why it's still happening. You didn't add the me. Because when he said it, I walked out of here and I was like, these dudes ain't going to no NBA Finals. I honestly said that in my mind. I was like, these dudes, Klay and Steph don't shoot like that. This dude Draymond Green don't defend like that. All this stuff he's telling me, I'm like, And here we are, 5 or 10 championships later.

I remember he said, and everybody went crazy, and he said, "I have the greatest shooting backcourt of all time." Everybody like, "What? Why would he say that?" Blah, blah, blah. And he's like, "No, I'm telling you, I got the greatest shooting backcourt of all time." For someone to say that—

When it wasn't even clear that nobody had worked to prove that.

No, not at all. If someone did that now, just in a TV position and said, this is gonna be the greatest backcourt of all time, then 4, I mean, and then 4 years later you're looking at it and you're like, wow, they have a job like that just by saying it on TV.

Just by saying it on TV, 100%. He's actually coaching that.

He's actually coaching that. So nah, man, you know, I got mad love for Coach Mark Jackson. That's my first coach in this league. But my brother, I appreciate you for coming on the show.

Man, this was fun, man.

An hour and 20 minutes, bro.

Man, I love basketball, man. We can do this again.

I appreciate you.

All right then.

We most definitely will.

All right, all right. I appreciate you, brother.

What's up everybody? It's Draymond Green. Make sure you subscribe to The Volume's YouTube channel below so you don't miss any more of this great content going forward.